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On August 08 2014 02:41 SK.Testie wrote:
The Palestinian people of course have international support and sympathy. But I don't think Hamas does. They gain favour where they need it. Until their charter sends a message of peace and not an ignorant and arrogant, ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″. Like.. how fucking stupid is that?
Holy shit is that rS.Testie[9]?! The man who got 100-0 on iCCup with hacks? :D
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 08 2014 02:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:16 Big J wrote:On August 08 2014 02:08 Jormundr wrote:On August 08 2014 02:01 Big J wrote:On August 08 2014 01:56 Jormundr wrote:On August 08 2014 01:04 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2014 00:47 Big J wrote:
Lol @Hamas celebrating "their victory".
For the good of Gaza one can only hope that they never win like that again or it's going to be a very empty place. I have been laughing at that for a while. Victory is truly in the eyes of the beholder. But at the end of the day, NPR reported that 2/3 of their rockets were used or destroyed, so there likely won't be this kind of non-sense for a while and it looks like the government in the West Bank might be working on taking over some level of security for Gaza. Maybe something good will come out of all of this and Gaza will be demilitarized and the blockage eased. They won by a huge margin. A lot of people who otherwise didn't know or care about them have learned how one sided the conflict is and has always been. They won because now more people know by how much they lose? That's some weird logic ^^ They won because Israel lost significant populist support in the international community and because Palestine gained that support. Pretty simple. You can also bet that this strengthened Hamas' efforts in Gaza as well. I don't think anyone would be surprised that a lot of Hamas militants became the 'crazy jihad types' because one of their friends or family members was murdered by Israel. Or that the muslim world would increase support for Gazans. if you say so Yeah, I am not sure how the families of all those dead people feel about the victory. And if that's how you keep your enrollment numbers up, I think that system might backfire at some point. I would think both sides got what they wanted at a huge cost, but that is just me.
I guess you could cal it a pyrrhic victory? Maybe that term doesn't do it justice, maybe we'll have to coin a new term like palestinian victory to adequately describe it. They lost so bad that it doesn't feel like victory yet it totally was sort of?
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On August 08 2014 00:40 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 00:07 DinoMight wrote:On August 07 2014 23:55 Wolfstan wrote:On August 07 2014 23:50 DinoMight wrote:On August 07 2014 23:38 farvacola wrote:
The US's embassy is in Tel-Aviv as well lol. I was just making a point that literally everything he said is wrong. Other than the Israel's capital what else was wrong? That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Israel is our ally in the middle east because there values are much more closely aligned with our own. When I asked you which values Israel has in common with the West that other countries in the Middle East don't you answered that they value economic ties (implying that Middle Eastern countries don't value economic ties). I just showed you that Egypt and Turkey have great economic ties with Canada. Saudi Arabia also does a lot of trade with Canada.Your quoted statement above is pure bigotry. Nothing else. EDIT - well, ignorance, also. Oh I apologize then, you misunderstood me. I was actually agreeing with you then. I should have qualified the statement with Israel is one of our allies in the middle east. Money is definitely more important the official religion/colour of residents. It is also usually more important than moral/cultural alignment. Being allies with Israel doesn't prevent us from having ties with other sovereign states in the area unless those states put us into a "us or them" ultimatum. There isn't much in it for us to stand with Hamas of Iran over Israel.
Do you understand that your original statement was written in an extremely offensive way?
That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation?
Regardless of what you meant, what you wrote there says that "people from the middle east value religion and hatred above self and family preservation." Which is an extremely broad and judgmental statement.
Most people from the Middle East in fact do not value hatred.
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On August 08 2014 03:51 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 02:40 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2014 02:16 Big J wrote:On August 08 2014 02:08 Jormundr wrote:On August 08 2014 02:01 Big J wrote:On August 08 2014 01:56 Jormundr wrote:On August 08 2014 01:04 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2014 00:47 Big J wrote:
Lol @Hamas celebrating "their victory".
For the good of Gaza one can only hope that they never win like that again or it's going to be a very empty place. I have been laughing at that for a while. Victory is truly in the eyes of the beholder. But at the end of the day, NPR reported that 2/3 of their rockets were used or destroyed, so there likely won't be this kind of non-sense for a while and it looks like the government in the West Bank might be working on taking over some level of security for Gaza. Maybe something good will come out of all of this and Gaza will be demilitarized and the blockage eased. They won by a huge margin. A lot of people who otherwise didn't know or care about them have learned how one sided the conflict is and has always been. They won because now more people know by how much they lose? That's some weird logic ^^ They won because Israel lost significant populist support in the international community and because Palestine gained that support. Pretty simple. You can also bet that this strengthened Hamas' efforts in Gaza as well. I don't think anyone would be surprised that a lot of Hamas militants became the 'crazy jihad types' because one of their friends or family members was murdered by Israel. Or that the muslim world would increase support for Gazans. if you say so Yeah, I am not sure how the families of all those dead people feel about the victory. And if that's how you keep your enrollment numbers up, I think that system might backfire at some point. I would think both sides got what they wanted at a huge cost, but that is just me. I guess you could cal it a pyrrhic victory? Maybe that term doesn't do it justice, maybe we'll have to coin a new term like palestinian victory to adequately describe it. They lost so bad that it doesn't feel like victory yet it totally was sort of?
Hamas is a militant organisation with a goal of at least fighting Israel. The palestinian people, on the other hand, are civilians. When civilians die in Gaza it is a free commercial in the middle east for why militants are needed to fight the evil of Israel. Hamas is winning support by proxy since they have a militant arm.
The distinction between different actors on the palestinian side is important. The palestinian people will always draw the short stick in this conflict. Btw. Erradicate Hamas and Al-Quaida supporters as well as other jihadists stand ready to take over. It is not a solution.
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On August 08 2014 03:56 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 00:40 Wolfstan wrote:On August 08 2014 00:07 DinoMight wrote:On August 07 2014 23:55 Wolfstan wrote:On August 07 2014 23:50 DinoMight wrote:On August 07 2014 23:38 farvacola wrote:
The US's embassy is in Tel-Aviv as well lol. I was just making a point that literally everything he said is wrong. Other than the Israel's capital what else was wrong? That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Israel is our ally in the middle east because there values are much more closely aligned with our own. When I asked you which values Israel has in common with the West that other countries in the Middle East don't you answered that they value economic ties (implying that Middle Eastern countries don't value economic ties). I just showed you that Egypt and Turkey have great economic ties with Canada. Saudi Arabia also does a lot of trade with Canada.Your quoted statement above is pure bigotry. Nothing else. EDIT - well, ignorance, also. Oh I apologize then, you misunderstood me. I was actually agreeing with you then. I should have qualified the statement with Israel is one of our allies in the middle east. Money is definitely more important the official religion/colour of residents. It is also usually more important than moral/cultural alignment. Being allies with Israel doesn't prevent us from having ties with other sovereign states in the area unless those states put us into a "us or them" ultimatum. There isn't much in it for us to stand with Hamas of Iran over Israel. Do you understand that your original statement was written in an extremely offensive way? Show nested quote +That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Regardless of what you meant, what you wrote there says that "people from the middle east value religion and hatred above self and family preservation." Which is an extremely broad and judgmental statement. Most people from the Middle East in fact do not value hatred.
Is "we have trouble dealing with regimes/organizations/ideologies that people are part of", less offensive than "people" in a broad and judgmental way?
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On August 08 2014 04:50 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 03:56 DinoMight wrote:On August 08 2014 00:40 Wolfstan wrote:On August 08 2014 00:07 DinoMight wrote:On August 07 2014 23:55 Wolfstan wrote:On August 07 2014 23:50 DinoMight wrote:On August 07 2014 23:38 farvacola wrote:
The US's embassy is in Tel-Aviv as well lol. I was just making a point that literally everything he said is wrong. Other than the Israel's capital what else was wrong? That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Israel is our ally in the middle east because there values are much more closely aligned with our own. When I asked you which values Israel has in common with the West that other countries in the Middle East don't you answered that they value economic ties (implying that Middle Eastern countries don't value economic ties). I just showed you that Egypt and Turkey have great economic ties with Canada. Saudi Arabia also does a lot of trade with Canada.Your quoted statement above is pure bigotry. Nothing else. EDIT - well, ignorance, also. Oh I apologize then, you misunderstood me. I was actually agreeing with you then. I should have qualified the statement with Israel is one of our allies in the middle east. Money is definitely more important the official religion/colour of residents. It is also usually more important than moral/cultural alignment. Being allies with Israel doesn't prevent us from having ties with other sovereign states in the area unless those states put us into a "us or them" ultimatum. There isn't much in it for us to stand with Hamas of Iran over Israel. Do you understand that your original statement was written in an extremely offensive way? That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Regardless of what you meant, what you wrote there says that "people from the middle east value religion and hatred above self and family preservation." Which is an extremely broad and judgmental statement. Most people from the Middle East in fact do not value hatred. Is "we have trouble dealing with regimes/organizations/ideologies that people are part of", less offensive than "people" in a broad and judgmental way?
You're not getting it. Your statement implies that everyone in the middle east values hatred.
That is called prejudice: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prejudice?s=t
an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
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On July 30 2014 21:43 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 07:57 kwizach wrote:On July 30 2014 07:43 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 07:27 kwizach wrote:On July 30 2014 07:10 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 06:48 kwizach wrote:On July 30 2014 06:42 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 06:36 kwizach wrote:On July 30 2014 06:33 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 06:25 kwizach wrote:
[quote]
It is not factually false at all. Israel refuses, to this day, to outline the borders it would wish a two-state solution to be based on. This was one of the requests of Abbas in the recent negotiations - simply having Israel outline the border it wants. Israel refused. So you're changing every peace talk to the most recent peace talk? The definition of the borders is clearly an issue, but it is not the sole reason why every peace talk has broken down so far as was claimed. That is the reason why this blanket statement is false. EDIT: Didn't realize someone jumped in. Yeah, I'm not the poster you were replying to. I thought your "that is factually false" statement referred to what he said about Israel not being willing to outline borders, which is entirely true. They are clearly trying to grab as much as they can. But still this is just one of many issues, that hamper the peace talks, although it is one of the big ones. The Palestinian terrorism being the other one. In the end the entire conflict sometimes seems like a giant chicken and egg problem. What has to come first in order for peace to work? And nobody can really answer that I think. Pro-Palestinian will always claim, that all terrorism will cease once the territory question is settled while Pro-Israelis will claim that once the terror stops, a solution for the territory problem can be found. In the end I believe that the current leadership on both sides are not really interested in peace. Your last sentence is a false equivalence - Abbas and the Fatah have repeatedly proven themselves to be much more willing to compromise and meet the Israeli government half way than the latter. The latest talks are only one more example of this. See here, in particular the answer after "what concessions?". (these are American officials involved in the negotiations talking) "He [Abbas] agreed to a demilitarized state; he agreed to the border outline so 80 percent of settlers would continue living in Israeli territory; he agreed for Israel to keep security sensitive areas (mostly in the Jordan Valley - NB) for five years, and then the United States would take over. He accepted the fact that in the Israeli perception, the Palestinians would never be trustworthy.
"He also agreed that the Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem would remain under Israeli sovereignty, and agreed that the return of Palestinians to Israel would depend on Israeli willingness. 'Israel won't be flooded with refugees,' he promised.
"He told us: 'Tell me if there's another Arab leader that would have agreed to what I agreed to. I won't make any more concessions until Israel agrees to the three following terms:
- Outlining the borders would be the first topic under discussion. It would be agreed upon within three months.
- A timeframe would be set for the evacuation of Israelis from sovereign Palestinian territories (Israel had agreed to complete the evacuation of Sinai within three years).
- Israel will agree to have East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.
The Israelis would not agree to any of the three demands." And we are ignoring the fact, that there is an organization called Hamas, that won the last elections in 2006 and that are currently in a unity government with Fatah. I don't want to link again the interview, but people should start reading it. Demilitarization is not happening. So Abbas can talk all he wants. As long as Hamas is not on board, it doesn't mean anything for the moment. I didn't drew false equivalence. You just picked a specific representative of the Palestinian leadership that wants to compromise in order to fit your narrative. Which is actually the entire problem with this thread. People just conveniently ignore whatever doesn't fit their specific story in order to white wash "their" side. I picked "a specific representative of the Palestinian leadership"? Abbas is the president of the Palestinian National Authority and the leader of the PLO, which Israel recognizes as the representative of the Palestinian people as a whole. I'm not sure what "Abbas can talk all he wants" is supposed to mean - that's what you're supposed to do during negotiations, put propositions on the table and try reach an agreement on a set of elements. Why would the Palestinians per-emptively do whatever Israel asks of them in the negotiations before any deal is reached between the two parties and Israel agrees to the basic terms of the Palestinians as well? I'm not sure what your point with regards to Hamas is either. Do you think that they should be included in the negotiations, or at least that they should be willing to put into effect the content of an agreement? If so, you should be happy that an agreement for a unity government was reached. In any case, even not being in a unity government with Abbas doesn't change the fact that the negotiations are supposed to lead to compromise and concessions on both sides, that have to later be put into effect. If you can't reach a compromise in the first place, you have to look at what's blocking an agreement, and the fact is that Israel has clearly been less willing than Abbas to compromise. Not even being willing to outline borders is simply mind-blowing when you think about it. On July 30 2014 07:09 Nyxisto wrote:
Israel has always talked to Abbas and the Fatah. "Only 40% support for the Hamas"? "So only every second person supports the group that officially wants to tear your throat out? What's your problem buddy!" It's amazing to what standards Israel is held. Every other country wouldn't even have entered the room given the political climate of the Palestinian authorities. If the US were in Israel's shoes they would have brought the Palestinians some glorious freedom quite a while ago. And you're complaining about the people accusing you of strawmen and hyperbole? Do you see the kind of rubbish that you post? If you're not willing to engage in serious discussion, which you don't seem to be considering you carefully ignored every single one of the arguments I presented to you in my last posts, please abstain from intervening altogether in my exchanges with other people. What I mean is that Abbas despite being the nominal president doesn't have enough authority to actually implement what he is promising. Especially since Hamas leadership has made contradictory statements especially in respect to demilitarization. That's why I think to only cite Abbas position is not sufficient for a comparison. Fatah and Abbas have very little influence in the Gaza. They called for a ceasefire which Hamas has ignored so far. There is a difference between calling for a ceasefire in the context of a crisis of the type currently going on, and reaching an agreement with Israel as representatives of the PLO. In the latter case, it would be extremely difficult, and I would go as far as saying virtually impossible politically, for Hamas not to follow the agreement reached by Abbas, because an agreement would mean finally having set borders, no longer being constantly pushed back further by new settlements in the West Bank, Palestinians getting the recognition as citizens and as human beings they feel they've been denied, and in particular, for Gaza, finally having access again to necessary resources in much greater number. The support of Hamas would evaporate if they refused to follow such an agreement reached by Fatah with Israel. The extent of demilitarization is a tricky question considering Hamas does not even control all of the militant groups in Gaza, but given that it has proven itself to be willing to respect the previous ceasefire until Israel's "investigation" of the kidnapping resulted in several Palestinian deaths and multiple arrests, it is extremely likely that the organization would abstain from violence in the wake of an Israel-Abbas agreement of the type we mentioned. Beyond all this, however, and as I explained earlier, implementation comes after an agreement on mutual concessions. At this point Israel isn't even refusing to outline borders based on the objection that they think Abbas would be able to implement his concessions - they're refusing to outline borders period. There are several points here, that are based on conjecture and that you can chose to believe or not. Which makes this again a case in point for what I initially said. You're arguing that if Israel settles the territory question, there will be peace and violence will cease. I also believe that this is a possibility, but I also understand why Israel is not willing to take the risk. What you are proposing is basically the 2000 Roadmap, which was exactly an attempt to do what you outlined spread over three phases. It didn't work in part because the Palestinians didn't cease their violence. Their president at that time was... Abbas. So why should it work now? With Abbas weaker and Hamas stronger?
I will probably not be able to follow this thread much in the upcoming days/week, but I just wanted to respond to this before leaving. First, I'm not saying at all that it would be smooth sailing if Israel started engaging in the negotiations seriously (for example by outlining the borders it actually wants, something it hasn't even done). It would be a long and difficult process - there isn't the slightest doubt about this. The 2000 roadmap failed for a series of reasons, many of which are to be found on the Israeli side, but the point is that you can only make progress if both sides seriously engage in negotiations and in a political process of resolution. The last ten years have seen Abbas ready to make progress and not the Israeli government. Also, Hamas isn't at all in a good shape today (even before the current crisis) - quite the opposite. To quote this piece,
The accord came about in part because Hamas was already weakened: opposing Assad for the slaughter in Syria angered Iran, Assad’s patron, and led to a slump in Iranian support for Hamas. Then the group lost its Egyptian patron, Mohammed Morsi, to Tahrir. Tunnels to Egypt closed, gas prices in Gaza soared and desperation grew. The political division is top priority among Palestinians. Hamas’ legitimacy was both eroded and limited.
Having a unity deal between Fatah and Hamas was a good opportunity to encourage the pragmatic wing of Hamas and achieve political progress with regards to the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is something that the current Israeli government is clearly not interested in. At one point, it has to be said that they are the ones blocking further progress. Do I condemn Hamas launching rockets? Absolutely. But who's been responsible for the lack of progress on the only possible road to a long-term solution? Largely Israel.
On August 05 2014 01:06 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 00:56 kwizach wrote:On August 05 2014 00:49 TrainSamurai wrote:On August 05 2014 00:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 05 2014 00:22 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2014 00:18 WhiteDog wrote:On August 05 2014 00:05 Plansix wrote:On August 05 2014 00:01 WhiteDog wrote:On August 04 2014 23:59 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2014 23:56 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Why is it amusing ? It amuses me in the same way as when I see Keith Richards in anti-drug ads. Or bill Clinton talking about marriage. Like when Netanyahu talk about peace right ? So funny. On August 05 2014 00:01 TrainSamurai wrote:On August 04 2014 23:43 WhiteDog wrote:
This is exactly the same situation : everybody vote against Israeli in the UN, but the UN has no power. Exactly like back then, only the US, Israel, and some other small country (micronesia, marshal island, trinidad and tobago I think) vote against Israel.
Aside from the UN, every country recognize Israel's "right" to defend itself - aside from now the south african countries who just changed their approach towards Israel, and while most countries (even the US) condemn the settlement, they don't do anything against it, no sanction nothing. So yes, the international community does not care.
Now the public opinion forced the state to change their approach for South Africa, with boycotts and so on (same boycotts are happening in regards to Israel with the BDS) and maybe it will happen for Palestine. I think you just simply too naive. I'll agree that the current situation is fucked up and that Israel is dealing with a monster they had a hand in creating. But thats the thing... they're now dealing with a monster. There is no turning back now because they sort of bought this on themselves. Even if Israel has thoughts of peace now, the average Paletinians mindset is fucked up so much that the only solution seems to just be crippling thier offensive capabilities every few years. It seems like they ran out of ideas and the situation now is analogous to you getting your tetanus booster every 5 years. Israel simply just can't give in to all of Paletinians demand now because of how aggressive they've made the Palestinians. It is now up to the Paletinians to end the conflict, not because it is fair, but because they're only bringing harm onto themselves and thier future generation. Any link with my post at all ? I don't believe Israel will "give in" to Palestinian demand, I believe they will have to be forced to accept the palestinian state by the international community. Netanyahu talking about peace is also equally comical. I don't know why you think that I side with one side or the other. This is the problem with this conflict, no one can talk about it because anyone who is mildly invested is of the theory that "if your not with us, your against us". Both sides are asses and monsters, its just that one side happens to be winning more than the other. Not taking a stance against Israel, is going with the statu quo and being indirectly behind israel. If you wish so much to be neutral, ask your country to stop supporting Israel. Exactly, if your not with us, your against us. Its this sort of myopic view point that escalated everything to this point. No room for nuance or partial support. Its all or nothing. Its no wonder this has never been resolved. There's plenty of room for nuance, there's plenty of room for partial support. In fact mostly everyone has some nuance to their opinion. Virtually nobody here is arguing that Israel needs to cease to exist. Virtually nobody here is arguing that the palestinian loss of life is totally fine. But you are claiming neutrality where neutrality is tacit support of Israel, meaning that you are not neutral. I don't think you understand the point he was trying to make. His main argument is that Gaza should stand down because if they keep going there will only be more avoidable deaths. Yes yes Israel has some hand in this current conflict blah blah blah but that is only blaming. At this point figuring whos right or wrong is pointless because it leads nowhere. Israel has shown good will in the past and the people of Palesine must follow through, it was the actions of voting in hamas that caused the paradigm shift in Isreal. In the last ten years, Israel has shown considerably less good will than Abbas and the PLO/Fatah. The responsibility for the failure of negotiations to bring about a solution to the conflict largely lies on the side of Israeli governments. Yes but this conflict has lasted more than 10 years, why did you choose such an arbitary number? I choose 2005 because that was when the generally sentiment in Israel was that peace can be achieved by giving the Palestinians what they wanted. They started the process but did not finish because it failed spectacularly.
I was referring to Abbas' arrival in power. Since then, and like I said, Israel has been largely to blame on the front of a political resolution. More recently (these last few years), it has been almost entirely responsible for the lack of progress in the negotiations with Abbas/the PLO.
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Israel2209 Posts
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weird news, weird timing.
i saw (allegedly) a map of the launch and the general heading of the rockets fired (some israeli source). they say 3 rockets were fired, 2 north-west bound, in the general direction of the sea?(weird) and one north-east.ish. Hamas is a shit and can't aim their rockets but firing them into the sea is weird to say the least.
it doesn't excuse what israelis did since the war started anyways.
Edit:
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtqwIkvCIAEJ2pi.jpg)
Hamas has a history in launching these, how many times did they fire away from Israel?
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Can't we all agree the winners were Likud and Hamas, who have both significantly strengthened their domestic support, and the losers moderates on both sides? (And, of course, the civilian population of Gaza.)
On August 08 2014 16:18 Noam wrote:
How long would you sit back and wait while rockets are being shot at your civilians?
Well, I might at some point figure the people shooting said rockets were angry at me. Then I might try to see if I can do things to make them less angry. So I don't have to "mow the grass" periodically over the bodies of children.
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@ Noam's tweets, so Israel is excused? Noone is on Hamas' side here but Israel's still killed a shitload of civilians on its own and being on the same level as a terrorist organisation is hardly a good thing.
As for the accusations of shooting from civilian areas, it's ridiculous for the Israeli's/journalists to accuse the militants of shooting from densely populated areas when the IDF's land grabs have led to said density. Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint.
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Yeah maybe you shoot rockets at their civilians right? That oughta show em!
Seriously, how can they not fire from civilian area? It's just more brainwashing from the IDF.
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On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint.
Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels,
Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back rather than trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 08 2014 05:05 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 04:50 Wolfstan wrote:On August 08 2014 03:56 DinoMight wrote:On August 08 2014 00:40 Wolfstan wrote:On August 08 2014 00:07 DinoMight wrote:On August 07 2014 23:55 Wolfstan wrote:On August 07 2014 23:50 DinoMight wrote:On August 07 2014 23:38 farvacola wrote:
The US's embassy is in Tel-Aviv as well lol. I was just making a point that literally everything he said is wrong. Other than the Israel's capital what else was wrong? That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Israel is our ally in the middle east because there values are much more closely aligned with our own. When I asked you which values Israel has in common with the West that other countries in the Middle East don't you answered that they value economic ties (implying that Middle Eastern countries don't value economic ties). I just showed you that Egypt and Turkey have great economic ties with Canada. Saudi Arabia also does a lot of trade with Canada.Your quoted statement above is pure bigotry. Nothing else. EDIT - well, ignorance, also. Oh I apologize then, you misunderstood me. I was actually agreeing with you then. I should have qualified the statement with Israel is one of our allies in the middle east. Money is definitely more important the official religion/colour of residents. It is also usually more important than moral/cultural alignment. Being allies with Israel doesn't prevent us from having ties with other sovereign states in the area unless those states put us into a "us or them" ultimatum. There isn't much in it for us to stand with Hamas of Iran over Israel. Do you understand that your original statement was written in an extremely offensive way? That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Regardless of what you meant, what you wrote there says that "people from the middle east value religion and hatred above self and family preservation." Which is an extremely broad and judgmental statement. Most people from the Middle East in fact do not value hatred. Is "we have trouble dealing with regimes/organizations/ideologies that people are part of", less offensive than "people" in a broad and judgmental way? You're not getting it. Your statement implies that everyone in the middle east values hatred. That is called prejudice: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prejudice?s=tShow nested quote +an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
No, it actually does not imply that. What the statement implies is that SOME people there do. Not all. Not even the majority. But some of the people you would have to negotiate with do in fact have fucked up value systems. As can be easily seen in the case of pretty much any conflict in the middle east, which is often a mess of religious and racial hatred against anyone who is not exactly like x among the actors. You have Hamas and Israel constantly shooting rockets into civilian areas (with different amounts of sucess though). You have ISIS building up some crazy jihadist caliphate that wants to exterminate anyone who is not exactly like them. You have fundamentalists and dictatorships on all corners.
I am pretty sure that the average person just wants to live his life without wars going on, but sadly a minority is still influential enough to fuck the whole area up for everyone else.
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On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong.
they'll never stop until they'll get their 2 state solution, until they all die or until they all became jewish. Israel alone has the power to make all of those happen.
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On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong.
Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly.
That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel.
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On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel.
That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..).
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On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..).
Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that.
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EPT
