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Gaza war 2014 - Page 109

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DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
August 07 2014 14:50 GMT
#2161
On August 07 2014 23:38 farvacola wrote:
The US's embassy is in Tel-Aviv as well lol.


I was just making a point that literally everything he said is wrong.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
August 07 2014 14:54 GMT
#2162
On August 07 2014 23:29 DinoMight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2014 23:21 Wolfstan wrote:
On August 07 2014 22:19 DinoMight wrote:
On August 07 2014 07:48 Wolfstan wrote:
On August 07 2014 06:07 Cheerio wrote:
On August 06 2014 14:05 Wolfstan wrote:
On August 06 2014 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On August 06 2014 09:06 Wolfstan wrote:
On August 06 2014 07:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On August 06 2014 07:05 Wolfstan wrote:
[quote]

Nope, pretty much stay the course with what they are doing now. Neuter Hamas, make Palestine elect someone else, take out strategic targets. Genocide of Palestinians isn't a very good idea. There is a line and it lies somewhere between 2000 civilians and all 3.3 million of them.


Where does the line go? Give a number. Seriously, if you're actually going to make this argument, then say exactly how many civilian lives are acceptable from your point of view.


Sure, using Dino's 4.5 million as a number:
.01%(450) - retaliation in defense of its citizens
.1%(4500) - military ops taking out strategic threats
1%(45000) - Hamas negotiated surrender
over 1% - Hamas unconditional surrender

Personally I'm comfortable with the 45k number if it brings peace for 5-20 years. Hamas is certainly free to surrender any time before that though.

Scaling it back though, if a little weasel picks a fight with the alpha male, it's fair if the exchange leaves one with a black eye and the other with a broken nose, 2 broken arms and a ruptured left testicle. In that situation, I'm sure some people will whine about that disproportionate damage too.


but you don't know what brings what. what do you do when you have killed 45000 civilians and hamas doesn't surrender?

that doesn't even touch upon how disturbing I find your train of thought, not only the idea that the animal kingdom represents the pinnacle of civilization, but also how lightly you consider human life. Besides that though, I at least want to see if there's some logical consistency or reasoning behind your ideas. Like, it's not like Israel can go "hey Hamas, we're going to kill 45000 Palestinians, and then you guys surrender"; maybe that number would actually create a much larger scale uprising. How would you know? (I'm asking because you advocated that Israel should just go "balls to the wall and end this" - how do you know that you accomplish the desired goals before you reach the acceptable number of casualties?)


You do not intentionally target civilians obviously. You state your goals and use your might to achieve them. The idea that some things are worth killing/dying for is something that western society has (fortunately) mostly lost. With that loss of perspective, all the west can realistically do is stay out of it. Israel and Hamas have gone and decided that their ideologies are worth killing and dying for. Maybe what they really do need is the horrors of war to sober them on what they are willing to do as both sides seem more keen on negotiating than in 1990.


So, what are you saying is worth killing/dying for?


Just did a little exercise on a note pad:

+ Show Spoiler +
Things worth killing/dying for:
Self-preservation
Family and their lives

Things in order of importance but not worth killing/dying for:
Friends and their lives.
Self improvement
Money and the freedom/security/experiences it brings.
The land under my feet
Country
Strangers and their lives.
Other people's countries and lands.

Things I have a hard time reconciling that they are willing to kill/die for:
Religion
Hatreds
Addictions


That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Israel is our ally in the middle east because there values are much more closely aligned with our own.


Please tell me which values Israel shares with (let's say...) the United States that Egypt or Turkey don't.

Seriously, when you're not advocating genocide you're simply spewing bigotry.


They value importance of economic ties. Though not allies, we do have embassies in each other's capital.


You're full of shit and here's proof.

Egyptian embassy in Ottawa: http://www.mfa.gov.eg/english/embassies/Egyptian_Embassy_Ottawa/Pages/default.aspx

Egyptian trade and relations with canada: http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/egypt-egypte/bilateral_relations_bilaterales/index.aspx?lang=eng

Turkish embassy in Ottawa: http://ottava.be.mfa.gov.tr/

Turkish trade with canada: http://www.economy.gov.tr/index.cfm?sayfa=countriesandregions&country=CA&region=1

Israel: http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/israel/bilateral_relations_bilaterales/index.aspx?lang=eng

Canada maintains its embassy in Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem

Show nested quote +
While Israel designates Jerusalem as its capital, Canada believes that the final status of the city needs to be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinians. At present, Canada maintains its Embassy in Tel Aviv.


Thank you for the correction, noted.
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
August 07 2014 14:55 GMT
#2163
On August 07 2014 23:50 DinoMight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2014 23:38 farvacola wrote:
The US's embassy is in Tel-Aviv as well lol.


I was just making a point that literally everything he said is wrong.


Other than the Israel's capital what else was wrong?
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-07 15:08:21
August 07 2014 15:07 GMT
#2164
On August 07 2014 23:55 Wolfstan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2014 23:50 DinoMight wrote:
On August 07 2014 23:38 farvacola wrote:
The US's embassy is in Tel-Aviv as well lol.


I was just making a point that literally everything he said is wrong.


Other than the Israel's capital what else was wrong?


That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Israel is our ally in the middle east because there values are much more closely aligned with our own.


When I asked you which values Israel has in common with the West that other countries in the Middle East don't you answered that they value economic ties (implying that Middle Eastern countries don't value economic ties).

I just showed you that Egypt and Turkey have great economic ties with Canada. Saudi Arabia also does a lot of trade with Canada.



Your quoted statement above is pure bigotry. Nothing else.

EDIT - well, ignorance, also.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Days
Profile Joined February 2010
United States219 Posts
August 07 2014 15:35 GMT
#2165
i'm in the mood of self-defending the fuck out of someone. Should I enlist in the IDF?
We buy things we don't need, with money we don't have, to impress people we don't like.
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-07 15:41:32
August 07 2014 15:40 GMT
#2166
On August 08 2014 00:07 DinoMight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2014 23:55 Wolfstan wrote:
On August 07 2014 23:50 DinoMight wrote:
On August 07 2014 23:38 farvacola wrote:
The US's embassy is in Tel-Aviv as well lol.


I was just making a point that literally everything he said is wrong.


Other than the Israel's capital what else was wrong?


Show nested quote +
That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Israel is our ally in the middle east because there values are much more closely aligned with our own.


When I asked you which values Israel has in common with the West that other countries in the Middle East don't you answered that they value economic ties (implying that Middle Eastern countries don't value economic ties).

I just showed you that Egypt and Turkey have great economic ties with Canada. Saudi Arabia also does a lot of trade with Canada.



Your quoted statement above is pure bigotry. Nothing else.

EDIT - well, ignorance, also.


Oh I apologize then, you misunderstood me. I was actually agreeing with you then. I should have qualified the statement with Israel is one of our allies in the middle east.

Money is definitely more important the official religion/colour of residents. It is also usually more important than moral/cultural alignment. Being allies with Israel doesn't prevent us from having ties with other sovereign states in the area unless those states put us into a "us or them" ultimatum. There isn't much in it for us to stand with Hamas of Iran over Israel.
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
August 07 2014 15:42 GMT
#2167
On August 08 2014 00:35 Days wrote:
i'm in the mood of self-defending the fuck out of someone. Should I enlist in the IDF?

No, then you'd have to have the balls to actually fight someone irl, so probably not for you.
User was warned for too many mimes.
Nacl(Draq)
Profile Joined February 2011
United States302 Posts
August 07 2014 15:44 GMT
#2168
On August 08 2014 00:35 Days wrote:
i'm in the mood of self-defending the fuck out of someone. Should I enlist in the IDF?



This is a good example of how the thread is going.
I'll answer your question though.
Generally if you're wanting to attack someone in "self-defence" you just attack someone and make sure they can't make a statement. Or get it socially sanctioned, ie "freedom fighter" or "soldier."

But I suggest you make up a fake reason for why you are wanting to join an armed force, hopefully "cause I want to beat someone" doesn't get you in.
Nacl(Draq)
Profile Joined February 2011
United States302 Posts
August 07 2014 15:46 GMT
#2169
On August 08 2014 00:42 docvoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2014 00:35 Days wrote:
i'm in the mood of self-defending the fuck out of someone. Should I enlist in the IDF?

No, then you'd have to have the balls to actually fight someone irl, so probably not for you.



Ad hominem doesn't really do anything.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
August 07 2014 15:47 GMT
#2170
Lol @Hamas celebrating "their victory".
For the good of Gaza one can only hope that they never win like that again or it's going to be a very empty place.
Days
Profile Joined February 2010
United States219 Posts
August 07 2014 15:52 GMT
#2171
On August 08 2014 00:42 docvoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2014 00:35 Days wrote:
i'm in the mood of self-defending the fuck out of someone. Should I enlist in the IDF?

No, then you'd have to have the balls to actually fight someone irl, so probably not for you.


Wait by fighting you mean sitting in a tank and looking at a screen of where my shells will land? I don't think that requires any balls.

On August 08 2014 00:44 Nacl(Draq) wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2014 00:35 Days wrote:
i'm in the mood of self-defending the fuck out of someone. Should I enlist in the IDF?



This is a good example of how the thread is going.
I'll answer your question though.
Generally if you're wanting to attack someone in "self-defence" you just attack someone and make sure they can't make a statement. Or get it socially sanctioned, ie "freedom fighter" or "soldier."

But I suggest you make up a fake reason for why you are wanting to join an armed force, hopefully "cause I want to beat someone" doesn't get you in.


You didn't understand my sarcasm i'm making fun of this whole "self-defense" justification that pro-Israelis stand so devoutly for.
We buy things we don't need, with money we don't have, to impress people we don't like.
tadL
Profile Joined September 2010
Croatia679 Posts
August 07 2014 15:56 GMT
#2172
well at least they don't start a war against a innocent country like the usa did

hey we have trouble with hamas lets bomb gana because why not
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 07 2014 16:04 GMT
#2173
On August 08 2014 00:47 Big J wrote:
Lol @Hamas celebrating "their victory".
For the good of Gaza one can only hope that they never win like that again or it's going to be a very empty place.

I have been laughing at that for a while. Victory is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

But at the end of the day, NPR reported that 2/3 of their rockets were used or destroyed, so there likely won't be this kind of non-sense for a while and it looks like the government in the West Bank might be working on taking over some level of security for Gaza. Maybe something good will come out of all of this and Gaza will be demilitarized and the blockage eased.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
August 07 2014 16:56 GMT
#2174
On August 08 2014 01:04 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2014 00:47 Big J wrote:
Lol @Hamas celebrating "their victory".
For the good of Gaza one can only hope that they never win like that again or it's going to be a very empty place.

I have been laughing at that for a while. Victory is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

But at the end of the day, NPR reported that 2/3 of their rockets were used or destroyed, so there likely won't be this kind of non-sense for a while and it looks like the government in the West Bank might be working on taking over some level of security for Gaza. Maybe something good will come out of all of this and Gaza will be demilitarized and the blockage eased.

They won by a huge margin. A lot of people who otherwise didn't know or care about them have learned how one sided the conflict is and has always been.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-07 17:02:10
August 07 2014 17:01 GMT
#2175
On August 08 2014 01:56 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2014 01:04 Plansix wrote:
On August 08 2014 00:47 Big J wrote:
Lol @Hamas celebrating "their victory".
For the good of Gaza one can only hope that they never win like that again or it's going to be a very empty place.

I have been laughing at that for a while. Victory is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

But at the end of the day, NPR reported that 2/3 of their rockets were used or destroyed, so there likely won't be this kind of non-sense for a while and it looks like the government in the West Bank might be working on taking over some level of security for Gaza. Maybe something good will come out of all of this and Gaza will be demilitarized and the blockage eased.

They won by a huge margin. A lot of people who otherwise didn't know or care about them have learned how one sided the conflict is and has always been.


They won because now more people know by how much they lose?
That's some weird logic ^^
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
August 07 2014 17:08 GMT
#2176
On August 08 2014 02:01 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2014 01:56 Jormundr wrote:
On August 08 2014 01:04 Plansix wrote:
On August 08 2014 00:47 Big J wrote:
Lol @Hamas celebrating "their victory".
For the good of Gaza one can only hope that they never win like that again or it's going to be a very empty place.

I have been laughing at that for a while. Victory is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

But at the end of the day, NPR reported that 2/3 of their rockets were used or destroyed, so there likely won't be this kind of non-sense for a while and it looks like the government in the West Bank might be working on taking over some level of security for Gaza. Maybe something good will come out of all of this and Gaza will be demilitarized and the blockage eased.

They won by a huge margin. A lot of people who otherwise didn't know or care about them have learned how one sided the conflict is and has always been.


They won because now more people know by how much they lose?
That's some weird logic ^^

They won because Israel lost significant populist support in the international community and because Palestine gained that support. Pretty simple. You can also bet that this strengthened Hamas' efforts in Gaza as well. I don't think anyone would be surprised that a lot of Hamas militants became the 'crazy jihad types' because one of their friends or family members was murdered by Israel. Or that the muslim world would increase support for Gazans.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
August 07 2014 17:16 GMT
#2177
On August 08 2014 02:08 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2014 02:01 Big J wrote:
On August 08 2014 01:56 Jormundr wrote:
On August 08 2014 01:04 Plansix wrote:
On August 08 2014 00:47 Big J wrote:
Lol @Hamas celebrating "their victory".
For the good of Gaza one can only hope that they never win like that again or it's going to be a very empty place.

I have been laughing at that for a while. Victory is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

But at the end of the day, NPR reported that 2/3 of their rockets were used or destroyed, so there likely won't be this kind of non-sense for a while and it looks like the government in the West Bank might be working on taking over some level of security for Gaza. Maybe something good will come out of all of this and Gaza will be demilitarized and the blockage eased.

They won by a huge margin. A lot of people who otherwise didn't know or care about them have learned how one sided the conflict is and has always been.


They won because now more people know by how much they lose?
That's some weird logic ^^

They won because Israel lost significant populist support in the international community and because Palestine gained that support. Pretty simple. You can also bet that this strengthened Hamas' efforts in Gaza as well. I don't think anyone would be surprised that a lot of Hamas militants became the 'crazy jihad types' because one of their friends or family members was murdered by Israel. Or that the muslim world would increase support for Gazans.

if you say so
Bulugulu
Profile Joined March 2011
Israel250 Posts
August 07 2014 17:23 GMT
#2178
On August 08 2014 01:56 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2014 01:04 Plansix wrote:
On August 08 2014 00:47 Big J wrote:
Lol @Hamas celebrating "their victory".
For the good of Gaza one can only hope that they never win like that again or it's going to be a very empty place.

I have been laughing at that for a while. Victory is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

But at the end of the day, NPR reported that 2/3 of their rockets were used or destroyed, so there likely won't be this kind of non-sense for a while and it looks like the government in the West Bank might be working on taking over some level of security for Gaza. Maybe something good will come out of all of this and Gaza will be demilitarized and the blockage eased.

They won by a huge margin. A lot of people who otherwise didn't know or care about them have learned how one sided the conflict is and has always been.


That chart doesn't go anywhere towards showing this has "always" been a one-sided conflict.
How are wars between Israel and more than 5 other countries one sided?
Israel won those wars, and since there was a MASSIVELY disproportionate amount of soldiers on the other side they suffered more losses.
It's really demagogic to show that chart and group up all of Israels previous wars with its neighbors (many of whom have signed peace treaties with Israel in return for large concessions on our side) along with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict based on a single statistic.
“Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.”
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 07 2014 17:40 GMT
#2179
On August 08 2014 02:16 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2014 02:08 Jormundr wrote:
On August 08 2014 02:01 Big J wrote:
On August 08 2014 01:56 Jormundr wrote:
On August 08 2014 01:04 Plansix wrote:
On August 08 2014 00:47 Big J wrote:
Lol @Hamas celebrating "their victory".
For the good of Gaza one can only hope that they never win like that again or it's going to be a very empty place.

I have been laughing at that for a while. Victory is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

But at the end of the day, NPR reported that 2/3 of their rockets were used or destroyed, so there likely won't be this kind of non-sense for a while and it looks like the government in the West Bank might be working on taking over some level of security for Gaza. Maybe something good will come out of all of this and Gaza will be demilitarized and the blockage eased.

They won by a huge margin. A lot of people who otherwise didn't know or care about them have learned how one sided the conflict is and has always been.


They won because now more people know by how much they lose?
That's some weird logic ^^

They won because Israel lost significant populist support in the international community and because Palestine gained that support. Pretty simple. You can also bet that this strengthened Hamas' efforts in Gaza as well. I don't think anyone would be surprised that a lot of Hamas militants became the 'crazy jihad types' because one of their friends or family members was murdered by Israel. Or that the muslim world would increase support for Gazans.

if you say so

Yeah, I am not sure how the families of all those dead people feel about the victory. And if that's how you keep your enrollment numbers up, I think that system might backfire at some point. I would think both sides got what they wanted at a huge cost, but that is just me.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
August 07 2014 17:41 GMT
#2180
The Palestinian people of course have international support and sympathy. But I don't think Hamas does. They gain favour where they need it. Until their charter sends a message of peace and not an ignorant and arrogant, ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″. Like.. how fucking stupid is that?
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
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