|
On August 06 2014 21:32 Reaper9 wrote:Good, this might slightly curb the insanity that was prevalent in this thread. The war of ideology, of who is right and wrong, was getting on my nerves. Both sides have vested interest in their cause or justification for slaughter and death, and civilians on both sides are suffering, creating more and more hatred. Living, is suffering right now in the Middle East apparently. Edit: correction, did I say right now, I should probably have said decades. It's a cycle, yes I am well aware, every country cycles between war and peace.
"both sides are suffering" +1500 civilian casaulties on 1 side, very few on the other. people are also forgetting with this conflict that gaza is huge prison, no one who lives there can go freely in and out. Also isreal for years now has been expanding to the region's strategical waters point and restricting palestinians' access to water and food and supplies through "security control".
Then you wonder why people pick sides. either you're on the side of the oppressor or on the side of the oppressed. .
If you consider hamas terrorist, then you have to consider the state of israel the same. just like in that NK does alarmin things tread people antagonize 1 side yet the otherside has done as worse.
I am all with the palestinian people, and the isrealis who denounce (yes there are alot of them too) their government.
|
Believe me, I very much sympathize with the Palestinian civilians. But fuck Hamas and all they stand for, fuck the Israeli government. Even if Israelis have fewer Deaths, somewhere there is a weeping family member. I don't play number game bullshit, a life is a life. I am well aware of how Invasive Israel is, it is a grab for land and resources. It comes down to the simple us or them. If I view it coldly and list examples, plenty of species war for resources, food and slaves. Yes, ideally humans are above that, but finite resources, functional sociopaths, and general instinct to horde supplies suggest otherwise.
That's stupid! We should learn from history... Since when did the majority of people learn unbiased history, or was even awake in class. Probably 1 to 2 out of 30 half dead half asleep students. We are enlightened!... Said every nation at it's time. People learn, but then they die, of age and other causes. What the people of the middle east is learning... Is the current violence that throws their land into chaos, much like the endless wars of China, Europe, civil war of USA and countless other nations. I hope there will come a time for the peace part of the cycle.
|
Edit, crap posted all of above on phone, was editing and messed up, delete this double post.
|
On August 07 2014 02:51 Reaper9 wrote:
Believe me, I very much sympathize with the Palestinian civilians. But fuck Hamas and all they stand for, fuck the Israeli government. Even if Israelis have fewer Deaths, somewhere there is a weeping family member. I don't play number game bullshit, a life is a life. I am well aware of how Invasive Israel is, it is a grab for land and resources. It comes down to the simple us or them. If I view it coldly and list examples, plenty of species war for resources, food and slaves. Yes, ideally humans are above that, but finite resources, functional sociopaths, and general instinct to horde supplies suggest otherwise.
Well, I wouldn't like to see humans in the strongest will survive anarchy of the animal world. Even if we are tribal, there is still a drive and a possibility to overcome it.
When you are talking about the suffering of Israel, it is important to take the rockets into account. Even if the Iron Dome has got a good lock on most of them there are still some of them getting through. That fear a rocket from al-Qassam Brigades, al-Qud Brigades or some of the other terrorist groups in Palestine is part of the reason, why people in Israel have some legitimate complaints of the palestinian actions. Be aware that this fear is also real in times between military interventions... There is a reason extremists are winning. Terror from terrorists and unproportional responses from Israels Armed Forces cost civilian lives and creates fear among civilians. It is unfortunate, but the politicians in power on both sides seems to feed off their own civilians missery, making a true longterm solution very unlikely in the foreseeable future.
|
On August 06 2014 13:26 Livelovedie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 12:52 ticklishmusic wrote:
the line doesn't lie between 2000 and 3.3 million, honestly, the line was probably at around zero.
are we really calculating total percent civilian casualties as a way to force hamas to give up? cuz i dont know, but advocating fucking mass murder looks pretty bad to me. while we're discussing this, why don't we just consider a tithe or arming any israeli who wants to go into the gaza strip and announcing a 24 hour reverse ceasefire where all human decency is suspended.
i would not be okay with a 1/100 chance of dying for some pretty arbitrary reason. are you even willing to play your twisted version of russian roulette?
Someone watched the purge lately huh  .
i actually watched it like a year ago, and it stuck in my head because it was so bad.
but hey, raping and pillaging is a real thing, we just do it on a larger more advanced scale with missiles and corporations/banks usually.
|
On August 07 2014 02:24 crazyweasel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 21:32 Reaper9 wrote:Good, this might slightly curb the insanity that was prevalent in this thread. The war of ideology, of who is right and wrong, was getting on my nerves. Both sides have vested interest in their cause or justification for slaughter and death, and civilians on both sides are suffering, creating more and more hatred. Living, is suffering right now in the Middle East apparently. Edit: correction, did I say right now, I should probably have said decades. It's a cycle, yes I am well aware, every country cycles between war and peace. "both sides are suffering" +1500 civilian casaulties on 1 side, very few on the other. people are also forgetting with this conflict that gaza is huge prison, no one who lives there can go freely in and out. Also isreal for years now has been expanding to the region's strategical waters point and restricting palestinians' access to water and food and supplies through "security control". Then you wonder why people pick sides. either you're on the side of the oppressor or on the side of the oppressed. . If you consider hamas terrorist, then you have to consider the state of israel the same. just like in that NK does alarmin things tread people antagonize 1 side yet the otherside has done as worse. I am all with the palestinian people, and the isrealis who denounce (yes there are alot of them too) their government.
It's pretty rare to see someone with full-throated support for terrorism. Usually the people on the Palestinian side at least denounce the tactics.
|
On August 07 2014 03:35 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 02:24 crazyweasel wrote:On August 06 2014 21:32 Reaper9 wrote:Good, this might slightly curb the insanity that was prevalent in this thread. The war of ideology, of who is right and wrong, was getting on my nerves. Both sides have vested interest in their cause or justification for slaughter and death, and civilians on both sides are suffering, creating more and more hatred. Living, is suffering right now in the Middle East apparently. Edit: correction, did I say right now, I should probably have said decades. It's a cycle, yes I am well aware, every country cycles between war and peace. "both sides are suffering" +1500 civilian casaulties on 1 side, very few on the other. people are also forgetting with this conflict that gaza is huge prison, no one who lives there can go freely in and out. Also isreal for years now has been expanding to the region's strategical waters point and restricting palestinians' access to water and food and supplies through "security control". Then you wonder why people pick sides. either you're on the side of the oppressor or on the side of the oppressed. . If you consider hamas terrorist, then you have to consider the state of israel the same. just like in that NK does alarmin things tread people antagonize 1 side yet the otherside has done as worse. I am all with the palestinian people, and the isrealis who denounce (yes there are alot of them too) their government. It's pretty rare to see someone with full-throated support for terrorism. Usually the people on the Palestinian side at least denounce the tactics.
The stuff that consistently shows up in my feed:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/pallywood-little-girl-used-as-prop-for.html?m=1
http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/08/05/the-idf-knows-how-to-make-a-pillar-of-smoke/
And that's from Americans.
Edit:
My favorite comment from the ziyon thingy concerning the minutiae of a + Show Spoiler +(possibly fake dead child who was used as a prop and or legitimately killed (probably by jihadi scum) and dragged to the scene of the glorious empire of Israel's latest victory over terrorism to elicit false sympathy for the wretched palestinians)
"My sister is a gynecologist. Little girls who have been sexually abused assume that position on the examining table when their mothers bring them to the doctor to diagnose the vaginal symptoms. Normal little girls try to keep their legs clamped shut and are very embarrassed by the gynecological examination. Those who have been sexually abused spread their legs, look at the ceiling, and just zone out."
Fuck humans
Fuck all of them
|
On August 07 2014 03:53 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 03:35 NovaTheFeared wrote:On August 07 2014 02:24 crazyweasel wrote:On August 06 2014 21:32 Reaper9 wrote:Good, this might slightly curb the insanity that was prevalent in this thread. The war of ideology, of who is right and wrong, was getting on my nerves. Both sides have vested interest in their cause or justification for slaughter and death, and civilians on both sides are suffering, creating more and more hatred. Living, is suffering right now in the Middle East apparently. Edit: correction, did I say right now, I should probably have said decades. It's a cycle, yes I am well aware, every country cycles between war and peace. "both sides are suffering" +1500 civilian casaulties on 1 side, very few on the other. people are also forgetting with this conflict that gaza is huge prison, no one who lives there can go freely in and out. Also isreal for years now has been expanding to the region's strategical waters point and restricting palestinians' access to water and food and supplies through "security control". Then you wonder why people pick sides. either you're on the side of the oppressor or on the side of the oppressed. . If you consider hamas terrorist, then you have to consider the state of israel the same. just like in that NK does alarmin things tread people antagonize 1 side yet the otherside has done as worse. I am all with the palestinian people, and the isrealis who denounce (yes there are alot of them too) their government. It's pretty rare to see someone with full-throated support for terrorism. Usually the people on the Palestinian side at least denounce the tactics. The stuff that consistently shows up in my feed: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/pallywood-little-girl-used-as-prop-for.html?m=1http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/08/05/the-idf-knows-how-to-make-a-pillar-of-smoke/And that's from Americans. Edit: My favorite comment from the ziyon thingy concerning the minutiae of a + Show Spoiler +(possibly fake dead child who was used as a prop and or legitimately killed (probably by jihadi scum) and dragged to the scene of the glorious empire of Israel's latest victory over terrorism to elicit false sympathy for the wretched palestinians) dead child's leg placement. "My sister is a gynecologist. Little girls who have been sexually abused assume that position on the examining table when their mothers bring them to the doctor to diagnose the vaginal symptoms. Normal little girls try to keep their legs clamped shut and are very embarrassed by the gynecological examination. Those who have been sexually abused spread their legs, look at the ceiling, and just zone out." Fuck humans Fuck all of them
It's nice to think that people can be so mind-numbingly narrow minded that they can zone in on a flimsy piece of circumstantial, anecdotal, extrapolated "evidence" and ignore the 3000 dead civilians
I have some Jewish friends, many of whom I would consider well-educated, but they frequently post articles in support of Israel's current and past actions. I can't believe that these same friends who sincerely care about human rights (like, I have volunteered at homeless shelters with some of them, etc.) can blatantly ignore the civilian casualties.
|
On August 07 2014 04:04 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 03:53 Jormundr wrote:On August 07 2014 03:35 NovaTheFeared wrote:On August 07 2014 02:24 crazyweasel wrote:On August 06 2014 21:32 Reaper9 wrote:Good, this might slightly curb the insanity that was prevalent in this thread. The war of ideology, of who is right and wrong, was getting on my nerves. Both sides have vested interest in their cause or justification for slaughter and death, and civilians on both sides are suffering, creating more and more hatred. Living, is suffering right now in the Middle East apparently. Edit: correction, did I say right now, I should probably have said decades. It's a cycle, yes I am well aware, every country cycles between war and peace. "both sides are suffering" +1500 civilian casaulties on 1 side, very few on the other. people are also forgetting with this conflict that gaza is huge prison, no one who lives there can go freely in and out. Also isreal for years now has been expanding to the region's strategical waters point and restricting palestinians' access to water and food and supplies through "security control". Then you wonder why people pick sides. either you're on the side of the oppressor or on the side of the oppressed. . If you consider hamas terrorist, then you have to consider the state of israel the same. just like in that NK does alarmin things tread people antagonize 1 side yet the otherside has done as worse. I am all with the palestinian people, and the isrealis who denounce (yes there are alot of them too) their government. It's pretty rare to see someone with full-throated support for terrorism. Usually the people on the Palestinian side at least denounce the tactics. The stuff that consistently shows up in my feed: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/pallywood-little-girl-used-as-prop-for.html?m=1http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/08/05/the-idf-knows-how-to-make-a-pillar-of-smoke/And that's from Americans. Edit: My favorite comment from the ziyon thingy concerning the minutiae of a + Show Spoiler +(possibly fake dead child who was used as a prop and or legitimately killed (probably by jihadi scum) and dragged to the scene of the glorious empire of Israel's latest victory over terrorism to elicit false sympathy for the wretched palestinians) dead child's leg placement. "My sister is a gynecologist. Little girls who have been sexually abused assume that position on the examining table when their mothers bring them to the doctor to diagnose the vaginal symptoms. Normal little girls try to keep their legs clamped shut and are very embarrassed by the gynecological examination. Those who have been sexually abused spread their legs, look at the ceiling, and just zone out." Fuck humans Fuck all of them It's nice to think that people can be so mind-numbingly narrow minded that they can zone in on a flimsy piece of circumstantial, anecdotal, extrapolated "evidence" and ignore the 3000 dead civilians I have some Jewish friends, many of whom I would consider well-educated, but they frequently post articles in support of Israel's current and past actions. I can't believe that these same friends who sincerely care about human rights (like, I have volunteered at homeless shelters with some of them, etc.) can blatantly ignore the civilian casualties.
It all comes down to media and propaganda. People like that are taught from youth that Israel is the homeland of the Jews and that any attack on Israel is an attack on all Jews. Therefore they blindly side with Israel without really knowing what the government policies are or what the Palestinians' living conditions are like.
I live in New York and work in finance where, admitedly, there are a lot of Jews. I can't tell you how many "I stand with Israel" signs and stickers I've seen yet when you start to have a conversation with these people it's very clear that they don't understand the conflict at all. They don't understand the history and the nature of the conflict, what Hamas is, what the West Bank is, etc...
I also have Arab relatives that find excuses for everything that Hamas does, regardless of how disgusting or unethical it is. It's simply a product of the environment they were raised in. Egypt has gone to war with Israel several times and some of those relatives fought in these wars. They can't possibly not be biased.
|
I hope in this event, mass media gives more air to the peace groups that are made up of people from both sides.
|
On August 07 2014 05:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 04:04 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 07 2014 03:53 Jormundr wrote:On August 07 2014 03:35 NovaTheFeared wrote:On August 07 2014 02:24 crazyweasel wrote:On August 06 2014 21:32 Reaper9 wrote:Good, this might slightly curb the insanity that was prevalent in this thread. The war of ideology, of who is right and wrong, was getting on my nerves. Both sides have vested interest in their cause or justification for slaughter and death, and civilians on both sides are suffering, creating more and more hatred. Living, is suffering right now in the Middle East apparently. Edit: correction, did I say right now, I should probably have said decades. It's a cycle, yes I am well aware, every country cycles between war and peace. "both sides are suffering" +1500 civilian casaulties on 1 side, very few on the other. people are also forgetting with this conflict that gaza is huge prison, no one who lives there can go freely in and out. Also isreal for years now has been expanding to the region's strategical waters point and restricting palestinians' access to water and food and supplies through "security control". Then you wonder why people pick sides. either you're on the side of the oppressor or on the side of the oppressed. . If you consider hamas terrorist, then you have to consider the state of israel the same. just like in that NK does alarmin things tread people antagonize 1 side yet the otherside has done as worse. I am all with the palestinian people, and the isrealis who denounce (yes there are alot of them too) their government. It's pretty rare to see someone with full-throated support for terrorism. Usually the people on the Palestinian side at least denounce the tactics. The stuff that consistently shows up in my feed: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/pallywood-little-girl-used-as-prop-for.html?m=1http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/08/05/the-idf-knows-how-to-make-a-pillar-of-smoke/And that's from Americans. Edit: My favorite comment from the ziyon thingy concerning the minutiae of a + Show Spoiler +(possibly fake dead child who was used as a prop and or legitimately killed (probably by jihadi scum) and dragged to the scene of the glorious empire of Israel's latest victory over terrorism to elicit false sympathy for the wretched palestinians) dead child's leg placement. "My sister is a gynecologist. Little girls who have been sexually abused assume that position on the examining table when their mothers bring them to the doctor to diagnose the vaginal symptoms. Normal little girls try to keep their legs clamped shut and are very embarrassed by the gynecological examination. Those who have been sexually abused spread their legs, look at the ceiling, and just zone out." Fuck humans Fuck all of them It's nice to think that people can be so mind-numbingly narrow minded that they can zone in on a flimsy piece of circumstantial, anecdotal, extrapolated "evidence" and ignore the 3000 dead civilians I have some Jewish friends, many of whom I would consider well-educated, but they frequently post articles in support of Israel's current and past actions. I can't believe that these same friends who sincerely care about human rights (like, I have volunteered at homeless shelters with some of them, etc.) can blatantly ignore the civilian casualties. It all comes down to media and propaganda. People like that are taught from youth that Israel is the homeland of the Jews and that any attack on Israel is an attack on all Jews. Therefore they blindly side with Israel without really knowing what the government policies are or what the Palestinians' living conditions are like. I live in New York and work in finance where, admitedly, there are a lot of Jews. I can't tell you how many "I stand with Israel" signs and stickers I've seen yet when you start to have a conversation with these people it's very clear that they don't understand the conflict at all. They don't understand the history and the nature of the conflict, what Hamas is, what the West Bank is, etc... I also have Arab relatives that find excuses for everything that Hamas does, regardless of how disgusting or unethical it is. It's simply a product of the environment they were raised in. Egypt has gone to war with Israel several times and some of those relatives fought in these wars. They can't possibly not be biased.
And then the fact that I'm hesitant to post articles about the degree of devastation in Gaza because i don't want to hurt their feelings further contributes to their insulation... it's a vicious cycle.
|
On August 06 2014 14:05 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 06 2014 09:06 Wolfstan wrote:On August 06 2014 07:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 06 2014 07:05 Wolfstan wrote:On August 06 2014 06:57 DinoMight wrote:On August 06 2014 06:51 Wolfstan wrote:
I honestly think Israel should go balls to the wall and end this. There is bloodshed for a short time but it ends better for us in the west. Hamas and the people that support them are currently being shown that there are consequences to actions and sometimes unfortunately they are disproportionate. The moral of the story is don't pick a fight someone who is willing to kick your ass. Yeah, kill every Palestinian. They're all Hamas right? They need to learn a lesson. What the fuck is wrong with you? Nope, pretty much stay the course with what they are doing now. Neuter Hamas, make Palestine elect someone else, take out strategic targets. Genocide of Palestinians isn't a very good idea. There is a line and it lies somewhere between 2000 civilians and all 3.3 million of them. Where does the line go? Give a number. Seriously, if you're actually going to make this argument, then say exactly how many civilian lives are acceptable from your point of view. Sure, using Dino's 4.5 million as a number: .01%(450) - retaliation in defense of its citizens .1%(4500) - military ops taking out strategic threats 1%(45000) - Hamas negotiated surrender over 1% - Hamas unconditional surrender Personally I'm comfortable with the 45k number if it brings peace for 5-20 years. Hamas is certainly free to surrender any time before that though. Scaling it back though, if a little weasel picks a fight with the alpha male, it's fair if the exchange leaves one with a black eye and the other with a broken nose, 2 broken arms and a ruptured left testicle. In that situation, I'm sure some people will whine about that disproportionate damage too. but you don't know what brings what. what do you do when you have killed 45000 civilians and hamas doesn't surrender? that doesn't even touch upon how disturbing I find your train of thought, not only the idea that the animal kingdom represents the pinnacle of civilization, but also how lightly you consider human life. Besides that though, I at least want to see if there's some logical consistency or reasoning behind your ideas. Like, it's not like Israel can go "hey Hamas, we're going to kill 45000 Palestinians, and then you guys surrender"; maybe that number would actually create a much larger scale uprising. How would you know? (I'm asking because you advocated that Israel should just go "balls to the wall and end this" - how do you know that you accomplish the desired goals before you reach the acceptable number of casualties?) You do not intentionally target civilians obviously. You state your goals and use your might to achieve them. The idea that some things are worth killing/dying for is something that western society has (fortunately) mostly lost. With that loss of perspective, all the west can realistically do is stay out of it. Israel and Hamas have gone and decided that their ideologies are worth killing and dying for. Maybe what they really do need is the horrors of war to sober them on what they are willing to do as both sides seem more keen on negotiating than in 1990.
So, what are you saying is worth killing/dying for?
|
In 1948 when Israel declared Independence and rejected the UN's proposal for partitioning the area it's population was about 800,000. Today it is about 8,000,000. In the same time, over 1,300,000 Palestinians were displaced and Israel has annexed large areas of land. In the face of overwhelming military force, is it any wonder so many have resorted to terrorism?
|
Israel2209 Posts
On August 07 2014 06:39 TheFish7 wrote:
In 1948 when Israel declared Independence and rejected the UN's proposal for partitioning the area it's population was about 800,000. Today it is about 8,000,000. In the same time, over 1,300,000 Palestinians were displaced and Israel has annexed large areas of land. In the face of overwhelming military force, is it any wonder so many have resorted to terrorism?
Can you come up with any source for the following statement:
"Israel rejected the UN's proposal for partitioning the area" ?
|
On August 07 2014 06:46 Noam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 06:39 TheFish7 wrote:
In 1948 when Israel declared Independence and rejected the UN's proposal for partitioning the area it's population was about 800,000. Today it is about 8,000,000. In the same time, over 1,300,000 Palestinians were displaced and Israel has annexed large areas of land. In the face of overwhelming military force, is it any wonder so many have resorted to terrorism? Can you come up with any source for the following statement: "Israel rejected the UN's proposal for partitioning the area" ?
lol, that kinda jumped out, didn't it?
|
On August 07 2014 06:07 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 14:05 Wolfstan wrote:On August 06 2014 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 06 2014 09:06 Wolfstan wrote:On August 06 2014 07:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 06 2014 07:05 Wolfstan wrote:On August 06 2014 06:57 DinoMight wrote:On August 06 2014 06:51 Wolfstan wrote:
I honestly think Israel should go balls to the wall and end this. There is bloodshed for a short time but it ends better for us in the west. Hamas and the people that support them are currently being shown that there are consequences to actions and sometimes unfortunately they are disproportionate. The moral of the story is don't pick a fight someone who is willing to kick your ass. Yeah, kill every Palestinian. They're all Hamas right? They need to learn a lesson. What the fuck is wrong with you? Nope, pretty much stay the course with what they are doing now. Neuter Hamas, make Palestine elect someone else, take out strategic targets. Genocide of Palestinians isn't a very good idea. There is a line and it lies somewhere between 2000 civilians and all 3.3 million of them. Where does the line go? Give a number. Seriously, if you're actually going to make this argument, then say exactly how many civilian lives are acceptable from your point of view. Sure, using Dino's 4.5 million as a number: .01%(450) - retaliation in defense of its citizens .1%(4500) - military ops taking out strategic threats 1%(45000) - Hamas negotiated surrender over 1% - Hamas unconditional surrender Personally I'm comfortable with the 45k number if it brings peace for 5-20 years. Hamas is certainly free to surrender any time before that though. Scaling it back though, if a little weasel picks a fight with the alpha male, it's fair if the exchange leaves one with a black eye and the other with a broken nose, 2 broken arms and a ruptured left testicle. In that situation, I'm sure some people will whine about that disproportionate damage too. but you don't know what brings what. what do you do when you have killed 45000 civilians and hamas doesn't surrender? that doesn't even touch upon how disturbing I find your train of thought, not only the idea that the animal kingdom represents the pinnacle of civilization, but also how lightly you consider human life. Besides that though, I at least want to see if there's some logical consistency or reasoning behind your ideas. Like, it's not like Israel can go "hey Hamas, we're going to kill 45000 Palestinians, and then you guys surrender"; maybe that number would actually create a much larger scale uprising. How would you know? (I'm asking because you advocated that Israel should just go "balls to the wall and end this" - how do you know that you accomplish the desired goals before you reach the acceptable number of casualties?) You do not intentionally target civilians obviously. You state your goals and use your might to achieve them. The idea that some things are worth killing/dying for is something that western society has (fortunately) mostly lost. With that loss of perspective, all the west can realistically do is stay out of it. Israel and Hamas have gone and decided that their ideologies are worth killing and dying for. Maybe what they really do need is the horrors of war to sober them on what they are willing to do as both sides seem more keen on negotiating than in 1990. So, what are you saying is worth killing/dying for?
Just did a little exercise on a note pad:
+ Show Spoiler +Things worth killing/dying for:
Self-preservation
Family and their lives
Things in order of importance but not worth killing/dying for:
Friends and their lives.
Self improvement
Money and the freedom/security/experiences it brings.
The land under my feet
Country
Strangers and their lives.
Other people's countries and lands.
Things I have a hard time reconciling that they are willing to kill/die for:
Religion
Hatreds
Addictions
That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Israel is our ally in the middle east because there values are much more closely aligned with our own.
|
On August 07 2014 06:39 TheFish7 wrote:
In 1948 when Israel declared Independence and rejected the UN's proposal for partitioning the area it's population was about 800,000. Today it is about 8,000,000. In the same time, over 1,300,000 Palestinians were displaced and Israel has annexed large areas of land. In the face of overwhelming military force, is it any wonder so many have resorted to terrorism?
for funsies, i rewrote the above from a different narrative...
In 1948, when Israel declared Independence and the surrounding Arab states rejected the UN's proposal for partitioning the area and the Arab states launched a war of annihilaation on Israel, the population of Israel was about 800,000 (82% jewish, 18% arab). Today it is about 8,000,000 (~75%jewish, 25% arab). In the same time, over 800,000 jews were displaced from the rest of the arab world and integrated into israeli society instead of being left to fester in perpetual misery in hereditary refugee camps.
In the face of overwhelming hostility from her neighbours, is it any wonder israel makes peace including land transfers with whomever offers their hand in sincerity (Egypt, Jordan, and in an alternate history - Palestine, if Arafat didn't launch a second intifada after turning down a final settlement at Camp David in 1999).
so yeah i agree, it is a wonder why some people resort to terrorism and genocidal pursuits to destroy others when instead they could have built their state for the benefit of their own people....
anywho, i hope this ceasefire holds and the gazans begin to rebuild houses and hospitals, not tunnels and rockets.
|
On August 07 2014 08:46 bahunto28 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 06:39 TheFish7 wrote:
In 1948 when Israel declared Independence and rejected the UN's proposal for partitioning the area it's population was about 800,000. Today it is about 8,000,000. In the same time, over 1,300,000 Palestinians were displaced and Israel has annexed large areas of land. In the face of overwhelming military force, is it any wonder so many have resorted to terrorism? for funsies, i rewrote the above from a different narrative... In 1948, when Israel declared Independence and the surrounding Arab states rejected the UN's proposal for partitioning the area and the Arab states launched a war of annihilaation on Israel, the population of Israel was about 800,000 (82% jewish, 18% arab). Today it is about 8,000,000 (~75%jewish, 25% arab). In the same time, over 800,000 jews were displaced from the rest of the arab world and integrated into israeli society instead of being left to fester in perpetual misery in hereditary refugee camps. In the face of overwhelming hostility from her neighbours, is it any wonder israel makes peace including land transfers with whomever offers their hand in sincerity (Egypt, Jordan, and in an alternate history - Palestine, if Arafat didn't launch a second intifada after turning down a final settlement at Camp David in 1999). so yeah i agree, it is a wonder why some people resort to terrorism and genocidal pursuits to destroy others when instead they could have built their state for the benefit of their own people.... anywho, i hope this ceasefire holds and the gazans begin to rebuild houses and hospitals, not tunnels and rockets.
Hope is a wonderful thing, but remember that these are the same people who celebrated the 9/11 attack on U.S.
|
On August 07 2014 07:48 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2014 06:07 Cheerio wrote:On August 06 2014 14:05 Wolfstan wrote:On August 06 2014 10:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 06 2014 09:06 Wolfstan wrote:On August 06 2014 07:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 06 2014 07:05 Wolfstan wrote:On August 06 2014 06:57 DinoMight wrote:On August 06 2014 06:51 Wolfstan wrote:
I honestly think Israel should go balls to the wall and end this. There is bloodshed for a short time but it ends better for us in the west. Hamas and the people that support them are currently being shown that there are consequences to actions and sometimes unfortunately they are disproportionate. The moral of the story is don't pick a fight someone who is willing to kick your ass. Yeah, kill every Palestinian. They're all Hamas right? They need to learn a lesson. What the fuck is wrong with you? Nope, pretty much stay the course with what they are doing now. Neuter Hamas, make Palestine elect someone else, take out strategic targets. Genocide of Palestinians isn't a very good idea. There is a line and it lies somewhere between 2000 civilians and all 3.3 million of them. Where does the line go? Give a number. Seriously, if you're actually going to make this argument, then say exactly how many civilian lives are acceptable from your point of view. Sure, using Dino's 4.5 million as a number: .01%(450) - retaliation in defense of its citizens .1%(4500) - military ops taking out strategic threats 1%(45000) - Hamas negotiated surrender over 1% - Hamas unconditional surrender Personally I'm comfortable with the 45k number if it brings peace for 5-20 years. Hamas is certainly free to surrender any time before that though. Scaling it back though, if a little weasel picks a fight with the alpha male, it's fair if the exchange leaves one with a black eye and the other with a broken nose, 2 broken arms and a ruptured left testicle. In that situation, I'm sure some people will whine about that disproportionate damage too. but you don't know what brings what. what do you do when you have killed 45000 civilians and hamas doesn't surrender? that doesn't even touch upon how disturbing I find your train of thought, not only the idea that the animal kingdom represents the pinnacle of civilization, but also how lightly you consider human life. Besides that though, I at least want to see if there's some logical consistency or reasoning behind your ideas. Like, it's not like Israel can go "hey Hamas, we're going to kill 45000 Palestinians, and then you guys surrender"; maybe that number would actually create a much larger scale uprising. How would you know? (I'm asking because you advocated that Israel should just go "balls to the wall and end this" - how do you know that you accomplish the desired goals before you reach the acceptable number of casualties?) You do not intentionally target civilians obviously. You state your goals and use your might to achieve them. The idea that some things are worth killing/dying for is something that western society has (fortunately) mostly lost. With that loss of perspective, all the west can realistically do is stay out of it. Israel and Hamas have gone and decided that their ideologies are worth killing and dying for. Maybe what they really do need is the horrors of war to sober them on what they are willing to do as both sides seem more keen on negotiating than in 1990. So, what are you saying is worth killing/dying for? Just did a little exercise on a note pad: + Show Spoiler +Things worth killing/dying for:
Self-preservation
Family and their lives
Things in order of importance but not worth killing/dying for:
Friends and their lives.
Self improvement
Money and the freedom/security/experiences it brings.
The land under my feet
Country
Strangers and their lives.
Other people's countries and lands.
Things I have a hard time reconciling that they are willing to kill/die for:
Religion
Hatreds
Addictions
That is why that west has a incredibly difficult time dealing with the middle east. How do you negotiate with people who place religion/hatred above self and family preservation? Israel is our ally in the middle east because there values are much more closely aligned with our own.
you're horribly deluded if you think the majority of palestinians are 1. fighting and 2. fighting for religion, hatred or addiction.
the palestinians for the most part haven't even fought-- i mean, if we want to get semantic here, fighting would imply some semblance of parity between two sides. right now we have a 10 year old playing basketball against shaq, shaq can steal the ball and score at will while about 99% of the 10 year old's shot are swatted away.
and past that, if the palestinians are fighting, they aren't doing it for ideaology. they aren't idealists, but what they want, for the most part, is even purer and more understandable. they want lives. to be free. to have access to basic necessities. to have their fair shot.
if we want to talk about batshit insane ideaology, take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/did-israeli-army-deliberately-kill-its-own-captured-soldier-and-destroy-gaza
|
On August 07 2014 08:46 bahunto28 wrote:
Palestine, if Arafat didn't launch a second intifada after turning down a final settlement at Camp David in 1999.
You were doing so well until you decided to engage in a bit of historical revisionism.
No government following 94 in Israel tried to stop colonization of the West Bank, the only difference was that Natanyahu accelerated the rate while Barak slowed it but year over year there has not been one year where Israel hasnt increased its settlements in the West Bank. Then Sharon -- in the face of a statement on Camp David went to the Temple Mount in a deliberate provocation.
Israel's right wing politicians are perfectly fine with a semi-quiet war because it brings them more votes, the Palestinians can never seriously threaten the existence of Israel and America will always provide cover (although maybe not, every Gaza incursion leads to more photos of dead kids)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
