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On August 08 2014 20:59 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 20:46 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:43 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:36 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:
[quote]
That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed.
What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does.
You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased.
Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest. No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is. I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions. Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors. Israel trains its trolls well. Feels like arguing with the Russians in the Ukraine thread. Most people wouldn't have responded seriously to your personal attacks, you call that trolling? The irony is that I am probably the most left-oriented Israeli you will encounter on this forum, which if you took the time to read my posts or if you asked me in a civil manner - you would have discovered. Your perspective is seriously flawed. It's hard to take you seriously after you said Israel "didn't have a problem getting over the Holocaust." Unless you're very far left you're likely also part of the 95% that believe the war is justified. You call yourself a forgiveness preacher but say peace is up to your enemy forgiving you and I'm the one with a flawed perspective?
I'm done defending myself when you keep putting words in my mouth.
I'm not "likely part" of the "95%"(not close) that believe the war is justified. Stop making assumptions about me and find someone else to attack.
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On August 08 2014 21:02 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 20:59 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:46 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:43 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:36 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:
[quote]
Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased.
Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!!
I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest. No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is. I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions. Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors. Israel trains its trolls well. Feels like arguing with the Russians in the Ukraine thread. Most people wouldn't have responded seriously to your personal attacks, you call that trolling? The irony is that I am probably the most left-oriented Israeli you will encounter on this forum, which if you took the time to read my posts or if you asked me in a civil manner - you would have discovered. Your perspective is seriously flawed. It's hard to take you seriously after you said Israel "didn't have a problem getting over the Holocaust." Unless you're very far left you're likely also part of the 95% that believe the war is justified. You call yourself a forgiveness preacher but say peace is up to your enemy forgiving you and I'm the one with a flawed perspective? I'm done defending myself when you keep putting words in my mouth. I'm not "likely part" of the "95%"(not close) that believe the war is justified. Stop making assumptions about me and find someone else to attack.
I put nothing in your mouth that you haven't already expressed. Find one and i'll quote you on it.
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Norway28804 Posts
On August 08 2014 21:14 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 21:02 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:59 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:46 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:43 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:36 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:
[quote]
Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions.
I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest. No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is. I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions. Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors. Israel trains its trolls well. Feels like arguing with the Russians in the Ukraine thread. Most people wouldn't have responded seriously to your personal attacks, you call that trolling? The irony is that I am probably the most left-oriented Israeli you will encounter on this forum, which if you took the time to read my posts or if you asked me in a civil manner - you would have discovered. Your perspective is seriously flawed. It's hard to take you seriously after you said Israel "didn't have a problem getting over the Holocaust." Unless you're very far left you're likely also part of the 95% that believe the war is justified. You call yourself a forgiveness preacher but say peace is up to your enemy forgiving you and I'm the one with a flawed perspective? I'm done defending myself when you keep putting words in my mouth. I'm not "likely part" of the "95%"(not close) that believe the war is justified. Stop making assumptions about me and find someone else to attack. I put no words in your mouth that you haven't already expressed. Find one and i'll quote you on it.
His first post where he said that Israel had no problems getting over the holocaust was too simplified. But after that you have continued to argue against a position that isn't his, just based on his nationality.
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On August 08 2014 21:02 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 20:59 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:46 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:43 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:36 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:
[quote]
Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased.
Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!!
I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest. No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is. I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions. Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors. Israel trains its trolls well. Feels like arguing with the Russians in the Ukraine thread. Most people wouldn't have responded seriously to your personal attacks, you call that trolling? The irony is that I am probably the most left-oriented Israeli you will encounter on this forum, which if you took the time to read my posts or if you asked me in a civil manner - you would have discovered. Your perspective is seriously flawed. It's hard to take you seriously after you said Israel "didn't have a problem getting over the Holocaust." Unless you're very far left you're likely also part of the 95% that believe the war is justified. You call yourself a forgiveness preacher but say peace is up to your enemy forgiving you and I'm the one with a flawed perspective? I'm done defending myself when you keep putting words in my mouth. I'm not "likely part" of the "95%"(not close) that believe the war is justified. Stop making assumptions about me and find someone else to attack.
The problem here is that both of you suck at communicating.
Bulugulu states things that very clearly imply another statement, and then afterwards says that that people should not assume he means what he implies. This is not how people work. If you say "People forgave germany the nazi crimes, and palestineans don't forgive Israel" that implies that the situations are similar, and if the palestineans just would be nice enough to forgive the problems would be solved. If you do not clarify that that is NOT what you mean, people will reasonably think that it is actually what you mean.
Meanwhile scarecrow is just getting very personal and aggressive, which means that both of you are now locked in this "No you" circle.
So how about just talking like normal people instead, making clear statements, clarifying them when you are obviously misunderstood instead of making more unclear statements that can easily be misinterpreted to mean the same thing as the first misinterpretation, and not getting personal?
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On August 08 2014 21:22 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 21:02 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:59 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:46 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:43 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:36 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:
[quote]
Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions.
I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest. No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is. I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions. Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors. Israel trains its trolls well. Feels like arguing with the Russians in the Ukraine thread. Most people wouldn't have responded seriously to your personal attacks, you call that trolling? The irony is that I am probably the most left-oriented Israeli you will encounter on this forum, which if you took the time to read my posts or if you asked me in a civil manner - you would have discovered. Your perspective is seriously flawed. It's hard to take you seriously after you said Israel "didn't have a problem getting over the Holocaust." Unless you're very far left you're likely also part of the 95% that believe the war is justified. You call yourself a forgiveness preacher but say peace is up to your enemy forgiving you and I'm the one with a flawed perspective? I'm done defending myself when you keep putting words in my mouth. I'm not "likely part" of the "95%"(not close) that believe the war is justified. Stop making assumptions about me and find someone else to attack. The problem here is that both of you suck at communicating. Bulugulu states things that very clearly imply another statement, and then afterwards says that that people should not assume he means what he implies. This is not how people work. If you say "People forgave germany the nazi crimes, and palestineans don't forgive Israel" that implies that the situations are similar, and if the palestineans just would be nice enough to forgive the problems would be solved. If you do not clarify that that is NOT what you mean, people will reasonably think that it is actually what you mean. Meanwhile scarecrow is just getting very personal and aggressive, which means that both of you are now locked in this "No you" circle. So how about just talking like normal people instead, making clear statements, clarifying them when you are obviously misunderstood instead of making more unclear statements that can easily be misinterpreted to mean the same thing as the first misinterpretation, and not getting personal?
You would be right, except I never said that second part of your sentence. I never blamed the palestinians for not forgiving Israel or said that they should forgive Israel because we forgave Germany.
And I did clarify that I didn't mean any of those things, and yet I was continually attacked for that and for other things that I never said.
I explain my position in my replies to him, but every time I reply I have to negate some other accusation that he makes about me.
What am I supposed to do in this situation?
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On August 08 2014 21:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 21:14 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 21:02 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:59 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:46 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:43 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:36 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:
[quote]
So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest.
No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is. I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions. Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors. Israel trains its trolls well. Feels like arguing with the Russians in the Ukraine thread. Most people wouldn't have responded seriously to your personal attacks, you call that trolling? The irony is that I am probably the most left-oriented Israeli you will encounter on this forum, which if you took the time to read my posts or if you asked me in a civil manner - you would have discovered. Your perspective is seriously flawed. It's hard to take you seriously after you said Israel "didn't have a problem getting over the Holocaust." Unless you're very far left you're likely also part of the 95% that believe the war is justified. You call yourself a forgiveness preacher but say peace is up to your enemy forgiving you and I'm the one with a flawed perspective? I'm done defending myself when you keep putting words in my mouth. I'm not "likely part" of the "95%"(not close) that believe the war is justified. Stop making assumptions about me and find someone else to attack. I put no words in your mouth that you haven't already expressed. Find one and i'll quote you on it. His first post where he said that Israel had no problems getting over the holocaust was too simplified. But after that you have continued to argue against a position that isn't his, just based on his nationality.
How does nationality not come into this and how is it not an irrelevant precedent to bring up (that coincidentally paints Israel as the good guys)? It's all about Israel compromising and Hamas stopping with the rockets. That's where peace lies. There's no point talking about forgiveness (especially asking for it as an Israeli) until Israel shows restraint, contrition and reparations.
@Simberto pretty much, I'm just frustrated with what he implied and he denies that he meant to.
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Norway28804 Posts
On August 08 2014 21:35 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 21:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 08 2014 21:14 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 21:02 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:59 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:46 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:43 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:36 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:
[quote]
No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground.
You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me.
I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts.
Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue.
Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality.
If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that.
So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig.
Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is. I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions. Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors. Israel trains its trolls well. Feels like arguing with the Russians in the Ukraine thread. Most people wouldn't have responded seriously to your personal attacks, you call that trolling? The irony is that I am probably the most left-oriented Israeli you will encounter on this forum, which if you took the time to read my posts or if you asked me in a civil manner - you would have discovered. Your perspective is seriously flawed. It's hard to take you seriously after you said Israel "didn't have a problem getting over the Holocaust." Unless you're very far left you're likely also part of the 95% that believe the war is justified. You call yourself a forgiveness preacher but say peace is up to your enemy forgiving you and I'm the one with a flawed perspective? I'm done defending myself when you keep putting words in my mouth. I'm not "likely part" of the "95%"(not close) that believe the war is justified. Stop making assumptions about me and find someone else to attack. I put no words in your mouth that you haven't already expressed. Find one and i'll quote you on it. His first post where he said that Israel had no problems getting over the holocaust was too simplified. But after that you have continued to argue against a position that isn't his, just based on his nationality. How does nationality not come into this and how is it not an irrelevant precedent to bring up (that coincidentally paints Israel as the good guys)? It's all about Israel compromising and Hamas stopping with the rockets. That's where peace lies. There's no point talking about forgiveness (especially asking for it as an Israeli) until Israel shows restraint, contrition and reparations. @Simberto pretty much, I'm just frustrated with what he implied and he denies that he meant to.
Because while he might not have uttered it in the first post that triggered you, it's been my impression throughout the rest of this thread that Bulugulu is not at all supportive of the actions of the Israeli government. He even outright states this, through saying that he is probably the most left-leaning Israeli on these forums, and you still attacked him after that. And in general, what you are doing here is a very dangerous thing : equating a population with its government is part of the justification for why it's okay for Israel to be so indiscriminate in their shelling of Gaza, after all the population voted for Hamas so they must all be terrorists..
I understand that this topic is very sensitive and I don't want to moderate emotions. I myself often have a hard time remaining calm, but it is very important that we manage to keep the conversation civil - if not even we can do that then how can we expect Palestinians and Israelis to be able to talk about these issues?
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On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too.
LOL. Israel has far from forgiven anyone for the holocaust. There isn't one day that you don't hold it over their heads or use it as a propaganda tool.
Don't kid yourself. Yes it was awful... but Israel has really milked it for all its worth.
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I wonder how many people/nations would be willing to put up the peacekeepers necessary for a long term solution. (not that it's gonna happen)
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On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I didn't say the Palestinians need to forgive us NOW because of the holocaust. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So yeah, you are biased because you are assuming that I am propagandizing in favor of Israel while all I'm doing is making a case for the possibility and necessity of peace and forgiveness in the future. Also Israel began to normalize relations with Germany as early as 1952, 4 years after the declaration of independence.
Don't cherry pick facts.
Normalization of relations occurred after Germany lost the war, the leaders were charged and executed for war crimes, and a complicit (but still somewhat clueless) population apologized and began making reparations (you can debate this point if you'd like) and the ideology of the perpetrators was stomped so hard into the dust that the Holocaust could never happen again.
You're conflating forgiveness and "getting over it" here as a result and prerequisite for peace.
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On August 08 2014 22:37 zlefin wrote:
I wonder how many people/nations would be willing to put up the peacekeepers necessary for a long term solution. (not that it's gonna happen)
The number if zero. No one wants a piece of this mess.
The endless circle continues. We won't lift the blockade until you start disarming and demilitarizing Gaza. We won't disarm or demilitarize until you lift the blockade.
And so we continue down the endless road of stupid.
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Norway28804 Posts
On August 08 2014 22:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. LOL. Israel has far from forgiven anyone for the holocaust. There isn't one day that you don't hold it over their heads or use it as a propaganda tool. Don't kid yourself. Yes it was awful... but Israel has really milked it for all its worth.
I guess you can argue that Israel has been using the holocaust for political gain or whatever. But that's also kinda justified I think, not wanting to repeat a genocide against your people would seem like the highest priority anything can have pretty much.
However that's not what Bulugulu is saying. He's saying that despite the holocaust, there's not really any animosity between Germans and Jews today. He's just saying that considering how the people who committed the holocaust and the people who suffered from the holocaust are no longer enemies, it must be possible for the Palestinians and the Israelis to some day become friends as well. He didn't say anything about how this is an automatic process or whatever, just that the precedent for future peace and reconciliation is there.
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On August 08 2014 22:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 22:27 DinoMight wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. LOL. Israel has far from forgiven anyone for the holocaust. There isn't one day that you don't hold it over their heads or use it as a propaganda tool. Don't kid yourself. Yes it was awful... but Israel has really milked it for all its worth. I guess you can argue that Israel has been using the holocaust for political gain or whatever. But that's also kinda justified I think, not wanting to repeat a genocide against your people would seem like the highest priority anything can have pretty much. However that's not what Bulugulu is saying. He's saying that despite the holocaust, there's not really any animosity between Germans and Jews today. He's just saying that considering how the people who committed the holocaust and the people who suffered from the holocaust are no longer enemies, it must be possible for the Palestinians and the Israelis to some day become friends as well. He didn't say anything about how this is an automatic process or whatever, just that the precedent for future peace and reconciliation is there.
Fair.
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Israel2209 Posts
Indeed.
Can we just try our best to get basic facts straight? I am not blaming you of twisting anything, but when you specifically write it in the order of "Israeli airstrikes / Hamas rocket attacks resume", even with the slash, some might read it is as "cause -> effect"
There have been talks in the past 72 hours, where Hamas said they will resume fire if their demands were not met. Well guess what, they resumed firing this morning.
Then they fired a bit more at noon.
Then more in the afternoon. And now Israel is responding.
You can call Israel a land-grabbing illegal state. You can argue that Israel's army doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians from their own democratically elected government who tends to use them as human shields and accidentally fires rocket at them, but you can't argue this:
Hamas wants an armed conflict.
These are not children throwing rocks. These are long range rockets from Iran, aimed at civilian centers. Hamas is an armed force engaging another armed force in war. And war is a horrible, bloody, sickening thing humans do when they disagree. Even when the most ethical army in the world is fighting on one side.
So you should be fighting for peace. And peace will NEVER happen when Hamas is sitting on the other side of the table.
Edit: replaced the word 'continue fire' with 'resume fire', as it was stopped for 72 hours on both sides.
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Hamas reportedly offered 10 conditions for 10 year truce:
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html (translated, original source is in Hebrew)
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/What-are-Hamass-conditions-for-a-cease-fire-363011#!
Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.
Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.
Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.
Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.
Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.
Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.
International forces on the borders.
Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.
Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.
Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.
They all seem really reasonable to me. Obviously the borders/ports might need to be under UN supervision (something Israel could argue for) but it's clear that Gaza needs food and supplies BADLY.
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Israel2209 Posts
Why is that a 10 year truce and not 100 years?
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I don't think Hamas can outright say "ok let's have peace", but 10 years of truce with significant economic and humanitarian assistance could create an environment where Hamas as we know it today is no longer necessary. 10 years is just a number-- it might be argued to be "it's not permanent" to satisfy hardliners, but there's a good chance that a 10 years truce is enough to end the conflict.
Imagine if in 10 years people actually celebrate the end of the truce and sign documents for a two state solution and peace.
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On August 08 2014 23:40 Noam wrote:
Why is that a 10 year truce and not 100 years?
Umm.... ask yourself. Would you want to live in peace time Gaza?
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Israel2209 Posts
So you don't think Hamas would use these 10 years to arm itself, become an armed force capable of doing true damage to Israel, and will actually try to fulfil its own written destiny and goal of destroying Israel?
I mean, it's not like that's exactly what they've done since they've come to power. All those tunnels had such great use bringing in rockets. The cement from Israel was very useful in creating them
Are you confident in this not happening? Do you have a strong relationship with current Hamas leaders and believe in their long term peace plans? Do you think they can even control their 1.8 million citizens?
Perhaps you don't really have a reason to fear this close neighbor that vows again and again to kill you, because they are not really close, and it won't actually affect you in any way... one wonders. One truly wonders.
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EPT
