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On August 09 2014 01:35 Noam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:14 DrCooper wrote:
No you can't argue that Israel doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians. They don't give one single piece of sh*t about them. They don't necessarily target them as an enemy, but they don't mind if some die. Just as bad. Welcome to the discussion DrCooper. You seem to be uneducated in the ways IDF handles civilians in Gaza (I am specifically writing Gaza). Let us spend some time together going over hard facts. How can we tell whether an army is targeting civilians, not targeting civilians, or even trying to avoid harming civilians when they are used as human shields? We compare numbers of civilian casualties vs combatant casualties from around the globe. I know you don't want to waste our time looking at the "UN assumed" numbers from the 2014 cycle of the Gaza war, because it will take years for Hamas to report the true numbers of their own casualties. (If you're simply unaware of the way Hamas fights the PR war, here's a nice article from the BBC titled "Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures".) So let's go back to operation Cast Lead from 2008. As you know, Hamas originally stated that only 50 combatants were killed and the rest were civilians. Years later they admitted that " around 700 of the Gaza fatalities were fighters". Source. Guess what, that matches Israel's original figures! So now let's see what do those numbers actually mean. Here's a nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israel_in_the_Gaza_WarWith your permission, I'll snip the relevant parts (relevant to our discussion. I could show you how many more civilians than combatants America's military killed in Iraq, but that would just portray them as any normal army, when we're trying to see whether the IDF minds or doesn't mind about minimizing civilian casualties in Gaza.): Show nested quote +Gordon notes that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualties. Show nested quote +Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media. So it appears that the cold hard Hamas-supported numbers show the IDF kills less civilians than combatants when it fights in Gaza. It also appears that this is an unprecedented ratio for "normal" wars (can war and normal really be used together in the same sentence?), so for a war where Hamas uses civilians as shields and actually kills some themselves? The IDF takes great care as to not harming civilians in Gaza. I apologize if it seems like I am attacking you personally DrCooper. There's just too many people ignorant of the facts of this very sad very bloody conflict.
I don't agree. At least not in this current conflict.
You quote people from 2008/9 about a conflict in 08/09. It's 2014.
Israel has bombed UN-Schools and hospitals, killing civilians. That is a warcrime. But Israel doesn't really care about commiting warcrimes, as shown in the past. So frankly, I fail to see how they try so hard to not cause civilian death.
They don't give a warning everytime they bomb a house.
Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. Israel is playing the PR-Game as much as the Hamas. But Hamas is winning on that side of the war.
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On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 01:35 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:14 DrCooper wrote:
No you can't argue that Israel doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians. They don't give one single piece of sh*t about them. They don't necessarily target them as an enemy, but they don't mind if some die. Just as bad. Welcome to the discussion DrCooper. You seem to be uneducated in the ways IDF handles civilians in Gaza (I am specifically writing Gaza). Let us spend some time together going over hard facts. How can we tell whether an army is targeting civilians, not targeting civilians, or even trying to avoid harming civilians when they are used as human shields? We compare numbers of civilian casualties vs combatant casualties from around the globe. I know you don't want to waste our time looking at the "UN assumed" numbers from the 2014 cycle of the Gaza war, because it will take years for Hamas to report the true numbers of their own casualties. (If you're simply unaware of the way Hamas fights the PR war, here's a nice article from the BBC titled "Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures".) So let's go back to operation Cast Lead from 2008. As you know, Hamas originally stated that only 50 combatants were killed and the rest were civilians. Years later they admitted that " around 700 of the Gaza fatalities were fighters". Source. Guess what, that matches Israel's original figures! So now let's see what do those numbers actually mean. Here's a nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israel_in_the_Gaza_WarWith your permission, I'll snip the relevant parts (relevant to our discussion. I could show you how many more civilians than combatants America's military killed in Iraq, but that would just portray them as any normal army, when we're trying to see whether the IDF minds or doesn't mind about minimizing civilian casualties in Gaza.): Gordon notes that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualties. Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media. So it appears that the cold hard Hamas-supported numbers show the IDF kills less civilians than combatants when it fights in Gaza. It also appears that this is an unprecedented ratio for "normal" wars (can war and normal really be used together in the same sentence?), so for a war where Hamas uses civilians as shields and actually kills some themselves? The IDF takes great care as to not harming civilians in Gaza. I apologize if it seems like I am attacking you personally DrCooper. There's just too many people ignorant of the facts of this very sad very bloody conflict. I don't agree. At least not in this current conflict. You quote people from 2008/9 about a conflict in 08/09. It's 2014. Israel has bombed UN-Schools and hospitals, killing civilians. That is a warcrime. But Israel doesn't really care about commiting warcrimes, as shown in the past. So frankly, I fail to see how they try so hard to not cause civilian death. They don't give a warning everytime they bomb a house. Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. Israel is playing the PR-Game as much as the Hamas. But Hamas is winning on that side of the war.
The agency the runs the UN schools has fully admitted to finding rockets in those schools.
http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools
This is also a blatant violation of international law and one of the reasons the schools keep being hit. I don't agree with Israel using air strikes to deal with the rockets the super inaccurate rockets, but Hamas is clearly trying to make the schools a target as well.
Both sides give no fucks about international law and what is or is not a war crime.
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On August 09 2014 02:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:On August 09 2014 01:35 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:14 DrCooper wrote:
No you can't argue that Israel doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians. They don't give one single piece of sh*t about them. They don't necessarily target them as an enemy, but they don't mind if some die. Just as bad. Welcome to the discussion DrCooper. You seem to be uneducated in the ways IDF handles civilians in Gaza (I am specifically writing Gaza). Let us spend some time together going over hard facts. How can we tell whether an army is targeting civilians, not targeting civilians, or even trying to avoid harming civilians when they are used as human shields? We compare numbers of civilian casualties vs combatant casualties from around the globe. I know you don't want to waste our time looking at the "UN assumed" numbers from the 2014 cycle of the Gaza war, because it will take years for Hamas to report the true numbers of their own casualties. (If you're simply unaware of the way Hamas fights the PR war, here's a nice article from the BBC titled "Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures".) So let's go back to operation Cast Lead from 2008. As you know, Hamas originally stated that only 50 combatants were killed and the rest were civilians. Years later they admitted that " around 700 of the Gaza fatalities were fighters". Source. Guess what, that matches Israel's original figures! So now let's see what do those numbers actually mean. Here's a nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israel_in_the_Gaza_WarWith your permission, I'll snip the relevant parts (relevant to our discussion. I could show you how many more civilians than combatants America's military killed in Iraq, but that would just portray them as any normal army, when we're trying to see whether the IDF minds or doesn't mind about minimizing civilian casualties in Gaza.): Gordon notes that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualties. Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media. So it appears that the cold hard Hamas-supported numbers show the IDF kills less civilians than combatants when it fights in Gaza. It also appears that this is an unprecedented ratio for "normal" wars (can war and normal really be used together in the same sentence?), so for a war where Hamas uses civilians as shields and actually kills some themselves? The IDF takes great care as to not harming civilians in Gaza. I apologize if it seems like I am attacking you personally DrCooper. There's just too many people ignorant of the facts of this very sad very bloody conflict. I don't agree. At least not in this current conflict. You quote people from 2008/9 about a conflict in 08/09. It's 2014. Israel has bombed UN-Schools and hospitals, killing civilians. That is a warcrime. But Israel doesn't really care about commiting warcrimes, as shown in the past. So frankly, I fail to see how they try so hard to not cause civilian death. They don't give a warning everytime they bomb a house. Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. Israel is playing the PR-Game as much as the Hamas. But Hamas is winning on that side of the war. The agency the runs the UN schools has fully admitted to finding rockets in those schools. http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schoolsThis is also a blatant violation of international law and one of the reasons the schools keep being hit. I don't agree with Israel using air strikes to deal with the rockets the super inaccurate rockets, but Hamas is clearly trying to make the schools a target as well. Both sides give no fucks about international law and what is or is not a war crime.
The schools found with rockets in them were empty aka not actively sheltering people.
The schools actively sheltering people had UN personnel there and did not have rockets in them. They signaled their location to the IDF many times but their messages were ignored.
Just the other day 10 children were killed because Israel tried to kill THREE MEN ON A MOTORCYCLE with a fucking rocket and missed. Say what you will but I personally feel that a military as capable as Israel's can be a bit more precise and discriminate in its choice of ammunition.
Additionally, this conflict is documented much better than previous conflicts due to improvements in mobile video technology. A quick trip to youtube will show you actual evidence of the civilian casualties you claim Hamas makes up. They may not be exactly as reported, but they're high enough to be worrisome.
As a guy whose tax dollars directly fund the IDF, I demand that Israel be held to a higher standard.
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On August 09 2014 02:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:On August 09 2014 01:35 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:14 DrCooper wrote:
No you can't argue that Israel doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians. They don't give one single piece of sh*t about them. They don't necessarily target them as an enemy, but they don't mind if some die. Just as bad. Welcome to the discussion DrCooper. You seem to be uneducated in the ways IDF handles civilians in Gaza (I am specifically writing Gaza). Let us spend some time together going over hard facts. How can we tell whether an army is targeting civilians, not targeting civilians, or even trying to avoid harming civilians when they are used as human shields? We compare numbers of civilian casualties vs combatant casualties from around the globe. I know you don't want to waste our time looking at the "UN assumed" numbers from the 2014 cycle of the Gaza war, because it will take years for Hamas to report the true numbers of their own casualties. (If you're simply unaware of the way Hamas fights the PR war, here's a nice article from the BBC titled "Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures".) So let's go back to operation Cast Lead from 2008. As you know, Hamas originally stated that only 50 combatants were killed and the rest were civilians. Years later they admitted that " around 700 of the Gaza fatalities were fighters". Source. Guess what, that matches Israel's original figures! So now let's see what do those numbers actually mean. Here's a nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israel_in_the_Gaza_WarWith your permission, I'll snip the relevant parts (relevant to our discussion. I could show you how many more civilians than combatants America's military killed in Iraq, but that would just portray them as any normal army, when we're trying to see whether the IDF minds or doesn't mind about minimizing civilian casualties in Gaza.): Gordon notes that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualties. Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media. So it appears that the cold hard Hamas-supported numbers show the IDF kills less civilians than combatants when it fights in Gaza. It also appears that this is an unprecedented ratio for "normal" wars (can war and normal really be used together in the same sentence?), so for a war where Hamas uses civilians as shields and actually kills some themselves? The IDF takes great care as to not harming civilians in Gaza. I apologize if it seems like I am attacking you personally DrCooper. There's just too many people ignorant of the facts of this very sad very bloody conflict. I don't agree. At least not in this current conflict. You quote people from 2008/9 about a conflict in 08/09. It's 2014. Israel has bombed UN-Schools and hospitals, killing civilians. That is a warcrime. But Israel doesn't really care about commiting warcrimes, as shown in the past. So frankly, I fail to see how they try so hard to not cause civilian death. They don't give a warning everytime they bomb a house. Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. Israel is playing the PR-Game as much as the Hamas. But Hamas is winning on that side of the war. The agency the runs the UN schools has fully admitted to finding rockets in those schools. http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schoolsThis is also a blatant violation of international law and one of the reasons the schools keep being hit. I don't agree with Israel using air strikes to deal with the rockets the super inaccurate rockets, but Hamas is clearly trying to make the schools a target as well. Both sides give no fucks about international law and what is or is not a war crime.
For me, that is not a reason to attack UN schools. Civilians go there to seek shelter and safety. Israel knows that but bombs them anyway.
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On August 09 2014 02:36 DrCooper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 02:28 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:On August 09 2014 01:35 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:14 DrCooper wrote:
No you can't argue that Israel doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians. They don't give one single piece of sh*t about them. They don't necessarily target them as an enemy, but they don't mind if some die. Just as bad. Welcome to the discussion DrCooper. You seem to be uneducated in the ways IDF handles civilians in Gaza (I am specifically writing Gaza). Let us spend some time together going over hard facts. How can we tell whether an army is targeting civilians, not targeting civilians, or even trying to avoid harming civilians when they are used as human shields? We compare numbers of civilian casualties vs combatant casualties from around the globe. I know you don't want to waste our time looking at the "UN assumed" numbers from the 2014 cycle of the Gaza war, because it will take years for Hamas to report the true numbers of their own casualties. (If you're simply unaware of the way Hamas fights the PR war, here's a nice article from the BBC titled "Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures".) So let's go back to operation Cast Lead from 2008. As you know, Hamas originally stated that only 50 combatants were killed and the rest were civilians. Years later they admitted that " around 700 of the Gaza fatalities were fighters". Source. Guess what, that matches Israel's original figures! So now let's see what do those numbers actually mean. Here's a nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israel_in_the_Gaza_WarWith your permission, I'll snip the relevant parts (relevant to our discussion. I could show you how many more civilians than combatants America's military killed in Iraq, but that would just portray them as any normal army, when we're trying to see whether the IDF minds or doesn't mind about minimizing civilian casualties in Gaza.): Gordon notes that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualties. Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media. So it appears that the cold hard Hamas-supported numbers show the IDF kills less civilians than combatants when it fights in Gaza. It also appears that this is an unprecedented ratio for "normal" wars (can war and normal really be used together in the same sentence?), so for a war where Hamas uses civilians as shields and actually kills some themselves? The IDF takes great care as to not harming civilians in Gaza. I apologize if it seems like I am attacking you personally DrCooper. There's just too many people ignorant of the facts of this very sad very bloody conflict. I don't agree. At least not in this current conflict. You quote people from 2008/9 about a conflict in 08/09. It's 2014. Israel has bombed UN-Schools and hospitals, killing civilians. That is a warcrime. But Israel doesn't really care about commiting warcrimes, as shown in the past. So frankly, I fail to see how they try so hard to not cause civilian death. They don't give a warning everytime they bomb a house. Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. Israel is playing the PR-Game as much as the Hamas. But Hamas is winning on that side of the war. The agency the runs the UN schools has fully admitted to finding rockets in those schools. http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schoolsThis is also a blatant violation of international law and one of the reasons the schools keep being hit. I don't agree with Israel using air strikes to deal with the rockets the super inaccurate rockets, but Hamas is clearly trying to make the schools a target as well. Both sides give no fucks about international law and what is or is not a war crime. For me, that is not a reason to attack UN schools. Civilians go there to seek shelter and safety. Israel knows that but bombs them anyway.
You can't fault one side, but not fault the other. Israel would need to attack the schools at some point if they are the launching pad for the rockets. Either with ground troops or bombs. They can't just wait until they run out of ammo.
And although I don't agree that the bombings were acceptable(though I am not a ground attack would lead to lower number of civilian deaths), Hamas is clearly trying to get these people killed.
On August 09 2014 02:35 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 02:28 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:On August 09 2014 01:35 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:14 DrCooper wrote:
No you can't argue that Israel doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians. They don't give one single piece of sh*t about them. They don't necessarily target them as an enemy, but they don't mind if some die. Just as bad. Welcome to the discussion DrCooper. You seem to be uneducated in the ways IDF handles civilians in Gaza (I am specifically writing Gaza). Let us spend some time together going over hard facts. How can we tell whether an army is targeting civilians, not targeting civilians, or even trying to avoid harming civilians when they are used as human shields? We compare numbers of civilian casualties vs combatant casualties from around the globe. I know you don't want to waste our time looking at the "UN assumed" numbers from the 2014 cycle of the Gaza war, because it will take years for Hamas to report the true numbers of their own casualties. (If you're simply unaware of the way Hamas fights the PR war, here's a nice article from the BBC titled "Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures".) So let's go back to operation Cast Lead from 2008. As you know, Hamas originally stated that only 50 combatants were killed and the rest were civilians. Years later they admitted that " around 700 of the Gaza fatalities were fighters". Source. Guess what, that matches Israel's original figures! So now let's see what do those numbers actually mean. Here's a nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israel_in_the_Gaza_WarWith your permission, I'll snip the relevant parts (relevant to our discussion. I could show you how many more civilians than combatants America's military killed in Iraq, but that would just portray them as any normal army, when we're trying to see whether the IDF minds or doesn't mind about minimizing civilian casualties in Gaza.): Gordon notes that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualties. Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media. So it appears that the cold hard Hamas-supported numbers show the IDF kills less civilians than combatants when it fights in Gaza. It also appears that this is an unprecedented ratio for "normal" wars (can war and normal really be used together in the same sentence?), so for a war where Hamas uses civilians as shields and actually kills some themselves? The IDF takes great care as to not harming civilians in Gaza. I apologize if it seems like I am attacking you personally DrCooper. There's just too many people ignorant of the facts of this very sad very bloody conflict. I don't agree. At least not in this current conflict. You quote people from 2008/9 about a conflict in 08/09. It's 2014. Israel has bombed UN-Schools and hospitals, killing civilians. That is a warcrime. But Israel doesn't really care about commiting warcrimes, as shown in the past. So frankly, I fail to see how they try so hard to not cause civilian death. They don't give a warning everytime they bomb a house. Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. Israel is playing the PR-Game as much as the Hamas. But Hamas is winning on that side of the war. The agency the runs the UN schools has fully admitted to finding rockets in those schools. http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schoolsThis is also a blatant violation of international law and one of the reasons the schools keep being hit. I don't agree with Israel using air strikes to deal with the rockets the super inaccurate rockets, but Hamas is clearly trying to make the schools a target as well. Both sides give no fucks about international law and what is or is not a war crime. The schools found with rockets in them were empty aka not actively sheltering people. The schools actively sheltering people had UN personnel there and did not have rockets in them. They signaled their location to the IDF many times but their messages were ignored. Just the other day 10 children were killed because Israel tried to kill THREE MEN ON A MOTORCYCLE with a fucking rocket and missed. Say what you will but I personally feel that a military as capable as Israel's can be a bit more precise and discriminate in its choice of ammunition. Additionally, this conflict is documented much better than previous conflicts due to improvements in mobile video technology. A quick trip to youtube will show you actual evidence of the civilian casualties you claim Hamas makes up. They may not be exactly as reported, but they're high enough to be worrisome. As a guy whose tax dollars directly fund the IDF, I demand that Israel be held to a higher standard.
I am not convinced that rockets are only being stored in empty schools. They could hid those things literally anywhere else, but they just happen to be in the UN schools. I am not willing to trust good faith on this one and that was the only site. This is the second time they have been found and there will likely be a third.
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Please provide evidence that civilians are being used "as human shields." Other than the IDF and Israeli spokespersons claiming this, there has been no evidence on the ground showing that this is happening. It's a case of "if everyone keeps saying it people will just accept it as the truth."
The only evidence I see of this is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Prior_to_2008-2009_Gaza_War
Israel has actually admitted to this practice, despite the lack of evidence that Palestinians are doing it.
If the bomb you retaliate with is big enough, then everyone is a human shield.
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On August 09 2014 00:49 bluzi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:36 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 09 2014 00:31 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous. There are ways to prevent that and if such smuggling takes place, Israel will have a good reason to put up the blockage again. Assuming things will not change has never been a justification to not try for peace. You can be watchful in peace times, rather than assume everything is "just fine". On August 09 2014 00:29 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous. So it's okay to say how hypothetically Hamas can build an arsenal during the truce but not okay to say how hypothetically Hamas could rebuild Gaza during a truce? Exactly. If it goes the other way, Israel will have their "I told you so", moment. My point is, you can't cherrypick the results of a truce. If Hamas negotiates a truce with such favorable terms for Gaza, they are tying their continued support by Gazans to the success of the treaty. They go from having nothing to lose by firing rockets to having everything to lose by firing rockets. I want nothing more then have a peaceful neighbors , but to be honest we tried so many times and failed, the reason for the blockades is never about hurting them on spite , its always about stopping them from smuggling rockets to fire at israel , we had an entire generation of ppl who were willing to give up on so much of the demands (Rabin/Barak/Olmeret) but they never accepted it , so the ppl grew less tolerant and its the Palastienies fault of Israel having more a right wing party , as its israel fault of Hamas getting to rule instead of Fatach , its a shitty situation for both sides. in the end of the day , i would bet everything i own , that israel will be bombed again regardless of a blockade/truce or whatever , why ? because thats how Hamas is being payed by Iran , the Hamas employer wants war , and thats what he will get. the "I TOLD YOU SO " moment happened so many times i lost count  , shitty shitty situation.
Yitzhak (ended by far right militant)
Barak (ended by Sharon - Likud)
Olmeret doesn't even factor. Whatever his intentions were, he shed too much blood during his leadership to be considered a partner in Gaza negotiations. I'll chalk it up to maybe he had his own ideas but if he did he was forced to commit the standard mow-the-grass atrocities by the extremely nationalist right wing block that dominates any discussion of military politics in Israel.
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Israel2209 Posts
On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 01:35 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:14 DrCooper wrote:
No you can't argue that Israel doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians. They don't give one single piece of sh*t about them. They don't necessarily target them as an enemy, but they don't mind if some die. Just as bad. Welcome to the discussion DrCooper. You seem to be uneducated in the ways IDF handles civilians in Gaza (I am specifically writing Gaza). Let us spend some time together going over hard facts. How can we tell whether an army is targeting civilians, not targeting civilians, or even trying to avoid harming civilians when they are used as human shields? We compare numbers of civilian casualties vs combatant casualties from around the globe. I know you don't want to waste our time looking at the "UN assumed" numbers from the 2014 cycle of the Gaza war, because it will take years for Hamas to report the true numbers of their own casualties. (If you're simply unaware of the way Hamas fights the PR war, here's a nice article from the BBC titled "Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures".) So let's go back to operation Cast Lead from 2008. As you know, Hamas originally stated that only 50 combatants were killed and the rest were civilians. Years later they admitted that " around 700 of the Gaza fatalities were fighters". Source. Guess what, that matches Israel's original figures! So now let's see what do those numbers actually mean. Here's a nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israel_in_the_Gaza_WarWith your permission, I'll snip the relevant parts (relevant to our discussion. I could show you how many more civilians than combatants America's military killed in Iraq, but that would just portray them as any normal army, when we're trying to see whether the IDF minds or doesn't mind about minimizing civilian casualties in Gaza.): Gordon notes that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualties. Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media. So it appears that the cold hard Hamas-supported numbers show the IDF kills less civilians than combatants when it fights in Gaza. It also appears that this is an unprecedented ratio for "normal" wars (can war and normal really be used together in the same sentence?), so for a war where Hamas uses civilians as shields and actually kills some themselves? The IDF takes great care as to not harming civilians in Gaza. I apologize if it seems like I am attacking you personally DrCooper. There's just too many people ignorant of the facts of this very sad very bloody conflict. I don't agree. At least not in this current conflict. You quote people from 2008/9 about a conflict in 08/09. It's 2014.
There are no numbers from 2014. None any rational person would rely on. We'll wait until Hamas provides the world with real numbers in a few years.
Until then, can you manage to accept that in the 2008/9 cycle, the ratio of Gazan civilian:Combatant casualties was the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare? You don't need to admit that its thanks to the IDF going to unprecedented measures of avoiding harming civilians. Just take that ratio composed of provable numbers as a fact until proven otherwise.
On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
Israel has bombed UN-Schools and hospitals, killing civilians. That is a warcrime.
Look up the definition of a war-crime and come back with your finding. Hint, when the target has military value, and civilians are notified ONCE and given enough time to evacuate, it is not a war-crime. BTW, the IDF notifies 3 times in 3 different ways, but you already refuse to accept this weird notion of the IDF trying to not harm civilians, so why did I just write that...???
On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
But Israel doesn't really care about commiting warcrimes, as shown in the past.
Show me. I promise I won't say "you're quoting war-crimes from 1935-1945. This is 2014".
On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
So frankly, I fail to see how they try so hard to not cause civilian death.
Your failure is quite apparent. Hint, look in the nested quote.
Seriously though, how can you fail to see something that I Just Showed You?
Let's solve for X where X is "The IDF tries to not cause civilian death".
One side is admittedly trying to cause civilian death.
The end result was less civilian deaths than any other war ever in the history of the known universe plus other dimensions.
What was the cause of the result? Was it X ?!
On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
They don't give a warning everytime they bomb a house.
That will definitely be looked into by the international court. Until then: Fact unverifiable and inadmissible in the TL court of useless discussions.
On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields.
I went and brought you evidence on how the IDF goes through "unprecedented measures to minimize civilian casualties", specifically in Gaza. You dismissed it, and then mentioned that you still fail to see something which was explained in extreme detail to you.
I refuse to spend another second bringing you more facts which you will just end up dismissing.
This is getting ridiculous.
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This is not ridiculous.
Its a fact that civilian casualties are way too high. And seeing that israel is still not changing the way they operate knowing that is in itself a pretty telling sign that they don't really care all that much about those casualties.
That being said, there is no real way to avoid them if you are going to use airstrikes in an urban environment with a population trapped inside. As long as airstrikes will happen there will be civilian casualties, no matter of how cautious they are.
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Can't we all just admit its a horrible situation, and both Hamas and Israel are at fault?
Hamas hides its forces in cities, which makes civilian casualties basically inevitable. But they're too small, poorly trained, and poorly equipped to wage a conventional war, so they don't really have a choice but to wage a guerrilla war.
And its been so long since Israel was created, that several generations of both sides have lived with the conflict. Israel can't exactly be faulted for fighting for their land anymore, as millions of their citizens were born there. It may as well be their homeland. But the same is true of the Palestinians.
Really I think the only people who are completely at fault and have no redeeming arguments are the British for arbitrarily drawing borders that didn't respect the local cultures at all.
tl;dr I think its a horrible situation all around, and there are no good guys.
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On August 09 2014 04:12 Noam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. I went and brought you evidence on how the IDF goes through "unprecedented measures to minimize civilian casualties", specifically in Gaza. You dismissed it, and then mentioned that you still fail to see something which was explained in extreme detail to you. I refuse to spend another second bringing you more facts which you will just end up dismissing. This is getting ridiculous.
I fail to see what is ridiculous about requesting evidence that civilians are being used as human shields.
It's one of the main arguments that Israel uses to excuse its absurdly high civilian casualty rate. It's one of the main arguments that my government uses to justify continuing to supply Israel with ammunition (paid for with my tax dollars).
I find it quite reasonable to demand evidence.
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On August 09 2014 04:40 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 04:12 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. I went and brought you evidence on how the IDF goes through "unprecedented measures to minimize civilian casualties", specifically in Gaza. You dismissed it, and then mentioned that you still fail to see something which was explained in extreme detail to you. I refuse to spend another second bringing you more facts which you will just end up dismissing. This is getting ridiculous. I fail to see what is ridiculous about requesting evidence that civilians are being used as human shields. It's one of the main arguments that Israel uses to excuse its absurdly high civilian casualty rate. It's one of the main arguments that my government uses to justify continuing to supply Israel with ammunition (paid for with my tax dollars). I find it quite reasonable to demand evidence.
Well you have been provided with evidence that Hamas is using UN schools to store rockets, though the school in question was abandoned at the time of the discovery. I would argue that was the only reason it was discovered and there are likely more schools with rockets stored in them, as this was the second one found.
Unless you are willing to believe that Hamas was only storing the rockets in vacant schools, which I would argue is naive, that is pretty strong evidence Hamas is at minimum indifferent to the safety of civilians. At worse, they are doing to assure the schools are targets of the IDF.
So at minimum, there is evidence that Hamas does not care if the UN schools are targets and that it is a disregard to the safety of the civilians in Gaza.
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On August 09 2014 04:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 04:40 DinoMight wrote:On August 09 2014 04:12 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. I went and brought you evidence on how the IDF goes through "unprecedented measures to minimize civilian casualties", specifically in Gaza. You dismissed it, and then mentioned that you still fail to see something which was explained in extreme detail to you. I refuse to spend another second bringing you more facts which you will just end up dismissing. This is getting ridiculous. I fail to see what is ridiculous about requesting evidence that civilians are being used as human shields. It's one of the main arguments that Israel uses to excuse its absurdly high civilian casualty rate. It's one of the main arguments that my government uses to justify continuing to supply Israel with ammunition (paid for with my tax dollars). I find it quite reasonable to demand evidence. Well you have been provided with evidence that Hamas is using UN schools to store rockets, though the school in question was abandoned at the time of the discovery. I would argue that was the only reason it was discovered and there are likely more schools with rockets stored in them, as this was the second one found. Unless you are willing to believe that Hamas was only storing the rockets in vacant schools, which I would argue is naive, that is pretty strong evidence Hamas is at minimum indifferent to the safety of civilians. At worse, they are doing to assure the schools are targets of the IDF. So at minimum, there is evidence that Hamas does not care if the UN schools are targets and that it is a disregard to the safety of the civilians in Gaza.
Hamas is not defensible at all. What they are doing is pretty condemnable and I doubt they really care about the civilian casualties, other than the fact that it brings more exposure to their cause and make israel look bad.
BUT, its not a reason not to condemn israel for killing way too many civilians, hamas or not. The fact that hamas may be taking civilians as human shields does not means it gives you the right to kill those shields.
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I'm laughing so hard at the BBC article that was linked earlier (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179). Is that seriously the best argument BBC could muster for Israel not being indiscriminate in their targeting? To claim that if they truly were we should see a gender-distribution of those killed equal to that of the background population? And since we don't, accordingly the "surplus" of men killed must in fact be terrorist-fighters?
That assumption is so flawed, ignoring all confounders, that they should rather have spent the storage room informing the world on the skin-colour of Barack Obama... The only thing that article can be used for is saying that the figures are preliminary (which it says in the UN report) - or alternatively print it out and use it to wipe after having visited the loo. I suggest using some soft paper though.
EDIT: To clarify: I don't know how indiscriminate Israel is being. But looking at the deathrates of children (whom I doubt are fighters) and the shelling of hospitals I dare say they aren't discriminating enough and I would expect better from them. I consider both sides to be committing atrocities and the lack of will to attempt to force a peace by the international community is despicable. No one in this world is looking good in this conflict - Palestine/Israel for committing the atrocities and the international community for sitting idly by.
We are all cunts.
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There are no numbers from 2014. None any rational person would rely on. We'll wait until Hamas provides the world with real numbers in a few years.
Until then, can you manage to accept that in the 2008/9 cycle, the ratio of Gazan civilian:Combatant casualties was the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare? You don't need to admit that its thanks to the IDF going to unprecedented measures of avoiding harming civilians. Just take that ratio composed of provable numbers as a fact until proven otherwise.
Yes 2008/9 they did. But I hope you know that today is not 2009 and this thread is not about the conflict of 08/09. Today is 2014.
Look up the definition of a war-crime and come back with your finding. Hint, when the target has military value, and civilians are notified ONCE and given enough time to evacuate, it is not a war-crime. BTW, the IDF notifies 3 times in 3 different ways, but you already refuse to accept this weird notion of the IDF trying to not harm civilians, so why did I just write that...???
I think I'm missing the important military value of shooting up an UN-All Girls school, killing 14 civilians, under the premise "Sometimes they store rockets in those places"
Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
But Israel doesn't really care about commiting warcrimes, as shown in the past. Show me. I promise I won't say "you're quoting war-crimes from 1935-1945. This is 2014".
Warcrimes committed by Israel? How about the use of chemical weapons in 08 that exploded over a refugee camp (!) and the use of palestinians as human shields in 08?
Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
So frankly, I fail to see how they try so hard to not cause civilian death. Your failure is quite apparent. Hint, look in the nested quote. Seriously though, how can you fail to see something that I Just Showed You? Let's solve for X where X is "The IDF tries to not cause civilian death". One side is admittedly trying to cause civilian death. The end result was less civilian deaths than any other war ever in the history of the known universe plus other dimensions. What was the cause of the result? Was it X ?!
No you didn't show anything. All you said was, in 08 they tried not to cause too many civilian deaths. And I'm saying, this isnt 08, this is 2014. Then I gave you examples (bombing schools full of civilians that are of no military value) to reinforce my argument that Israel might not kill civilians on purpose, but they are indifferent about it. Sort of a 'shoot first, ask questions later' type of mindset.
Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. I went and brought you evidence on how the IDF goes through "unprecedented measures to minimize civilian casualties", specifically in Gaza. You dismissed it, and then mentioned that you still fail to see something which was explained in extreme detail to you. I refuse to spend another second bringing you more facts which you will just end up dismissing. This is getting ridiculous.
I'm still waiting for your evidence that Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields.
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On August 09 2014 04:58 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 04:49 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2014 04:40 DinoMight wrote:On August 09 2014 04:12 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. I went and brought you evidence on how the IDF goes through "unprecedented measures to minimize civilian casualties", specifically in Gaza. You dismissed it, and then mentioned that you still fail to see something which was explained in extreme detail to you. I refuse to spend another second bringing you more facts which you will just end up dismissing. This is getting ridiculous. I fail to see what is ridiculous about requesting evidence that civilians are being used as human shields. It's one of the main arguments that Israel uses to excuse its absurdly high civilian casualty rate. It's one of the main arguments that my government uses to justify continuing to supply Israel with ammunition (paid for with my tax dollars). I find it quite reasonable to demand evidence. Well you have been provided with evidence that Hamas is using UN schools to store rockets, though the school in question was abandoned at the time of the discovery. I would argue that was the only reason it was discovered and there are likely more schools with rockets stored in them, as this was the second one found. Unless you are willing to believe that Hamas was only storing the rockets in vacant schools, which I would argue is naive, that is pretty strong evidence Hamas is at minimum indifferent to the safety of civilians. At worse, they are doing to assure the schools are targets of the IDF. So at minimum, there is evidence that Hamas does not care if the UN schools are targets and that it is a disregard to the safety of the civilians in Gaza. Hamas is not defensible at all. What they are doing is pretty condemnable and I doubt they really care about the civilian casualties, other than the fact that it brings more exposure to their cause and make israel look bad. BUT, its not a reason not to condemn israel for killing way too many civilians, hamas or not. The fact that hamas may be taking civilians as human shields does not means it gives you the right to kill those shields.
I am not excusing either part, both are have shown woefully disregard for human life. I just disputing the claim that there is no proof that Hamas is using civilians as human shields.
Also, i don't know there there is another way to combat the rockets that would result in fewer civilian deaths, as a ground assault might just end up causing as may, if not more. There might be no clean way to deal with the rockets when they are so close to civilians, which may be Hamas's plan.
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i think the notion of "human shield" comes from the fact that rockets can only come from populated areas. i mean look at gaza, its a freaking packed city. maybe hamas can warn people to evacuate but i assume they want sympathy for further support from outside. i dont think israel has any intentions of peaceful solution, and i mean peaceful solution as palestinians not being treated as second class citizens. what israel seems to want will cause anger from palestine and they're just feeding and feeding to create new hamas personnel. if they want peaceful solution, stop treating palestinians like cattle.
have diplomatic relationships with iran. i think iran is furthest in middle east when it comes to a more modern view of islam. they're not so culturally bound unlike other neighbors. not the current regime, but the newer generations, they're much more aware of the world around them, liberal and progressive, if you will.
israel is really, really good at their PR game (we give supplies and electricity! we warn where we bomb! who else does that!?!?). hamas can only hope to be at that level. you cant blame hamas's tactics, they can only work with what they have. terrorism only happens when one opponent has no chance in a straight up fight. i wish palestine can just admit defeat...but being a korean, i learned of freedom fighters vs japan so i do understand their fight to the death. your land being taken away from you is no simple conflict. i would be speaking japanese right now instead of korean if it wasnt for those two nukes.
i blame united kingdom 
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On August 09 2014 04:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 04:40 DinoMight wrote:On August 09 2014 04:12 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. I went and brought you evidence on how the IDF goes through "unprecedented measures to minimize civilian casualties", specifically in Gaza. You dismissed it, and then mentioned that you still fail to see something which was explained in extreme detail to you. I refuse to spend another second bringing you more facts which you will just end up dismissing. This is getting ridiculous. I fail to see what is ridiculous about requesting evidence that civilians are being used as human shields. It's one of the main arguments that Israel uses to excuse its absurdly high civilian casualty rate. It's one of the main arguments that my government uses to justify continuing to supply Israel with ammunition (paid for with my tax dollars). I find it quite reasonable to demand evidence. Well you have been provided with evidence that Hamas is using UN schools to store rockets, though the school in question was abandoned at the time of the discovery. I would argue that was the only reason it was discovered and there are likely more schools with rockets stored in them, as this was the second one found. Unless you are willing to believe that Hamas was only storing the rockets in vacant schools, which I would argue is naive, that is pretty strong evidence Hamas is at minimum indifferent to the safety of civilians. At worse, they are doing to assure the schools are targets of the IDF. So at minimum, there is evidence that Hamas does not care if the UN schools are targets and that it is a disregard to the safety of the civilians in Gaza.
Except it makes sense. Israel can't tell if the schools are vacant from the air. So they store the weapons in the empty UN schools hoping they won't get bombed.
In the occupied schools there are UN personnel on the ground. The UN personnel didn't even ask Israel not to bomb the school... they asked for time to evacuate the civilians BEFORE Israel bombed the school. A request that was denied. Simply unacceptable.
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Why are we still whining about the paltry amount of civilians who are losing their lives in this conflict? Unfortunately their lives aren't buying peace in the middle east. Israel really needs to ratchet up a "surge" to end this more quickly than they are. Stability is much too important for the economy to have this carry on much longer. If Hamas won't disarm, they unfortunately have to be disarmed by force.
User was warned for this post
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On August 09 2014 05:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 04:49 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2014 04:40 DinoMight wrote:On August 09 2014 04:12 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 02:14 DrCooper wrote:
Please show me actual evidence of the Hamas using human shields. I went and brought you evidence on how the IDF goes through "unprecedented measures to minimize civilian casualties", specifically in Gaza. You dismissed it, and then mentioned that you still fail to see something which was explained in extreme detail to you. I refuse to spend another second bringing you more facts which you will just end up dismissing. This is getting ridiculous. I fail to see what is ridiculous about requesting evidence that civilians are being used as human shields. It's one of the main arguments that Israel uses to excuse its absurdly high civilian casualty rate. It's one of the main arguments that my government uses to justify continuing to supply Israel with ammunition (paid for with my tax dollars). I find it quite reasonable to demand evidence. Well you have been provided with evidence that Hamas is using UN schools to store rockets, though the school in question was abandoned at the time of the discovery. I would argue that was the only reason it was discovered and there are likely more schools with rockets stored in them, as this was the second one found. Unless you are willing to believe that Hamas was only storing the rockets in vacant schools, which I would argue is naive, that is pretty strong evidence Hamas is at minimum indifferent to the safety of civilians. At worse, they are doing to assure the schools are targets of the IDF. So at minimum, there is evidence that Hamas does not care if the UN schools are targets and that it is a disregard to the safety of the civilians in Gaza. Except it makes sense. Israel can't tell if the schools are vacant from the air. So they store the weapons in the empty UN schools hoping they won't get bombed. In the occupied schools there are UN personnel on the ground. The UN personnel didn't even ask Israel not to bomb the school... they asked for time to evacuate the civilians BEFORE Israel bombed the school. A request that was denied. Simply unacceptable.
Yeah, that would be an ass move not matter what the reason is for doing it. "Hey, lets hid our rockets in vacant UN schools that Israel won't shoot at. There is no possible way that could put all the schools at risk of being fired on."
I really don't know what kind of proof people are looking for. Do they need a memo from Hamas command that says "Remember, use the human shield protocol."? We already have confirmed rockets in UN schools and the group that ran the school is taking some heat for turning the rockets back over to Hamas(rather than a third party, or leaving them there.)
If they want a safe zone, it needs to be respected by both sides. Both sides have shown they give no fucks about the UN schools, so both should be blames for the deaths caused by their actions. Neither side has the moral high ground here.
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