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Malaysian airliner shot down over Eastern Ukraine - Page 32

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In order to maintain some kind of respectable thread quality and to show some respect for those who lost friends in this tragedy, we're forced to enact a hard line policy for this thread. Any posts holding an opinion on who is responsible or making an accusation that is not held by neutral media will be banned. Policy is in effect from page 27 onwards.

Specifically, citing a Ukrainian or Russian source for your claims is going to get you banned. Opinions/facts/accusations arising from neutral media sources (i.e. media whose country of origin is not Ukraine, Russia or one of its puppet states) will be permitted. This policy extends to all forms of media; if a youtube video or picture has not come through a neutral media source then don't post it or you'll be banned. If you wish to discuss this policy please use this website feedback thread.

Updated policy on aggressive posting and insults.
BlueSpace
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany2182 Posts
July 18 2014 09:00 GMT
#621
The german newspapers I read this morning (Zeit online and Spiegel online) tend towards blaming the separatist although they believe it was a mistake and not intentional. The more important underlying question seems to be though how the separatist gained the equipment as well as the knowledge to operate such equipment in order to shoot down a plane at such a high altitude. As WiggyB said, these are not simple point and shoot systems and operating them requires some sort of training. The evidence here points to Russia according to the news reports I read, which will probably have some major repercussions in terms of relation between the European Union and Russia.

My condolences go out to the family and friends of the victims and I hope that the European Union as a whole will respond accordingly.
Probe1: "Because people are opinionated and love to share their thoughts. Then they read someone else agree with them and get their opinion confused with fact."
Nisyax
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Netherlands756 Posts
July 18 2014 09:01 GMT
#622
At least 173 Dutch people died in the crash as of now, 20 yet to be identified. No Americans yet.

http://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/3831390/zeker-173-nederlanders-omgekomen-bij-vliegramp-oekraine.html
C[h]ili
Profile Joined December 2011
Germany167 Posts
July 18 2014 09:07 GMT
#623
Very sad news, what a tragic accident.

I think the lesson for us should be to avoid armed conflict whenever possible.
Mithhaike
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Singapore2759 Posts
July 18 2014 09:11 GMT
#624
On July 18 2014 18:07 C[h]ili wrote:
Very sad news, what a tragic accident.

I think the lesson for us should be to avoid armed conflict whenever possible.

I agree with you. If that can happen, we probably won't be a single planet race, and many problems of the world would have been solved if the resources spent on military/ conflict were channelled into other venues.

This is a true tragedy that has occurred....
Mew Mew Pew Pew
Greg_J
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
China4409 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-18 09:36:53
July 18 2014 09:15 GMT
#625
On July 18 2014 18:07 C[h]ili wrote:
Very sad news, what a tragic accident.

I think the lesson for us should be to avoid armed conflict whenever possible.

You wouldn't have thought people needed to learn the lesson 'it’s not a good idea to give highly sophisticated weapons to people who have almost no idea what they are doing with them.' But apparently Moscow does.

It’s made so much more tragic by the fact the rebels/separatists almost certainly didn’t mean to bring down this particular plane. 300 life’s, for no good reason.

edit: I guess it hasn't be conclusively proved the separatists did it. So I should frame this by saying this is what I believe happended and this is how I feel about it if that does turn out to be the case.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
July 18 2014 09:16 GMT
#626
Apparently Russia closed several flight zones near the crash site hours before the incident, including the one the flight was flying into.
[image loading]
Source
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
July 18 2014 09:16 GMT
#627
http://www.smh.com.au/national/crash-claims-top-aids-researchers-heading-to-melbourne-20140718-zuaw3.html#ixzz37mkAFtTn

This story is saying that a lot of top AIDS researchers were on that flight =\
Never Knows Best.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-18 09:27:56
July 18 2014 09:24 GMT
#628
On July 18 2014 17:51 Mithhaike wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2014 17:43 zeo wrote:
On July 18 2014 17:27 WiggyB wrote:
On July 18 2014 17:04 LegalLord wrote:

What about the launchers themselves, at least the ones you are familiar with? Are those as reliable as the missiles, or do they get buggy?


I'm assuming that the Russian military had the same kind of standards when it comes to weaponry.
These systems are heavily tested at great expense. I've heard of cases of missiles exploding on the launcher, or exploding in mid air. But never heard of a case where a missile had hit a target other than the one specified.
There have been mistakes, but always human error as far as I am aware.
And after a quick Google on the BUK. It's been in service since 79. Thats over 35 years. If it was unreliable they wouldn't still be using it.

If you are interested in missile tests. YouTube "Sea Dart misfire HMS Gloucester". I would provide the link, but I'm on work Internet at the moment.
Don't worry no one was hurt, and everyone laughs about it now


The BUK's captured were incomplete at best. Though I doubt people watched the video posted earlier about surface-to-air missile overhaul procedure, if someone had seen it they would know the high amount of calibration needed when anything is changed or removed etc. from the system. They would need special facilities and equipment as well as a few test fires to calibrate the thing.

People need to stop jumping the gun and blaming whatever side for whatever reason. Just look at the facts.

I would like to enquire as to your source that the missiles captured were incomplete. From my understanding, the separatists claimed the missiles were working, while Kiev said it's not.

So you believe what Kiev says now? From your history you were highly skeptical of anything from Kiev, convenient timing to switch sides.
Like you said, look at the facts. Your postings has indicated that you have chosen a side, and your cherry picking of convenient "facts" are indicative too. Sorry you lack credibility IMO.

Well here is a statement (from today) from the Prosecutor General of Ukraine that rebel forces had not captured any BUK systems. Though its a Russian source citing the Prosecutor General of Ukraine it should be easy to find a Ukrainian (or any other) source for the same thing.
http://news.mail.ru/politics/18918028/?frommail=1
+ Show Spoiler +
После того, как был сбит пассажирский самолет, военные доложили президенту, что у террористов нет наших ракетных комплексов “Бук” и С-300, — сообщил генпрокурор. — Захвата этого вооружения не было

"After having been hit by a passenger plane, the military reported to the President that the terrorists have our missile systems" Buk "and C-300 - said the prosecutor general. - There was no capture of these weapons. "



edit: Here we go: https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainian-prosecutor-general-says-militants-did-not-seize-ukrainian-air-defense-launchers-356619.html

Ukrainian prosecutor general says militants did not seize Ukrainian air defense launchers


User was temp banned for this post.
“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
July 18 2014 09:25 GMT
#629
On July 18 2014 18:01 Nisyax wrote:
At least 173 Dutch people died in the crash as of now, 20 yet to be identified. No Americans yet.

http://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/3831390/zeker-173-nederlanders-omgekomen-bij-vliegramp-oekraine.html

I feel like if there is any Americans on there, there will be a shit storm brewing
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
WiggyB
Profile Joined April 2013
United Kingdom103 Posts
July 18 2014 09:29 GMT
#630
On July 18 2014 18:24 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2014 17:51 Mithhaike wrote:
On July 18 2014 17:43 zeo wrote:
On July 18 2014 17:27 WiggyB wrote:
On July 18 2014 17:04 LegalLord wrote:

What about the launchers themselves, at least the ones you are familiar with? Are those as reliable as the missiles, or do they get buggy?


I'm assuming that the Russian military had the same kind of standards when it comes to weaponry.
These systems are heavily tested at great expense. I've heard of cases of missiles exploding on the launcher, or exploding in mid air. But never heard of a case where a missile had hit a target other than the one specified.
There have been mistakes, but always human error as far as I am aware.
And after a quick Google on the BUK. It's been in service since 79. Thats over 35 years. If it was unreliable they wouldn't still be using it.

If you are interested in missile tests. YouTube "Sea Dart misfire HMS Gloucester". I would provide the link, but I'm on work Internet at the moment.
Don't worry no one was hurt, and everyone laughs about it now


The BUK's captured were incomplete at best. Though I doubt people watched the video posted earlier about surface-to-air missile overhaul procedure, if someone had seen it they would know the high amount of calibration needed when anything is changed or removed etc. from the system. They would need special facilities and equipment as well as a few test fires to calibrate the thing.

People need to stop jumping the gun and blaming whatever side for whatever reason. Just look at the facts.

I would like to enquire as to your source that the missiles captured were incomplete. From my understanding, the separatists claimed the missiles were working, while Kiev said it's not.

So you believe what Kiev says now? From your history you were highly skeptical of anything from Kiev, convenient timing to switch sides.
Like you said, look at the facts. Your postings has indicated that you have chosen a side, and your cherry picking of convenient "facts" are indicative too. Sorry you lack credibility IMO.

Well here is a statement (from today) from the Prosecutor General of Ukraine that rebel forces had not captured any BUK systems. Though its a Russian source citing the Prosecutor General of Ukraine it should be easy to find a Ukrainian (or any other) source for the same thing.
http://news.mail.ru/politics/18918028/?frommail=1
+ Show Spoiler +
После того, как был сбит пассажирский самолет, военные доложили президенту, что у террористов нет наших ракетных комплексов “Бук” и С-300, — сообщил генпрокурор. — Захвата этого вооружения не было

Show nested quote +
"After having been hit by a passenger plane, the military reported to the President that the terrorists have our missile systems" Buk "and C-300 - said the prosecutor general. - There was no capture of these weapons. "



edit: Here we go: https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainian-prosecutor-general-says-militants-did-not-seize-ukrainian-air-defense-launchers-356619.html

Show nested quote +
Ukrainian prosecutor general says militants did not seize Ukrainian air defense launchers

In order to maintain some kind of respectable thread quality and to show some respect for those who lost friends in this tragedy, we're forced to enact a hard line policy for this thread. Any posts holding an opinion on who is responsible or making an accusation that is not held by neutral media will be banned. Policy is in effect from page 27 onwards.

Specifically, citing a Ukrainian or Russian source for your claims is going to get you banned. Opinions/facts/accusations arising from neutral media sources (i.e. media whose country of origin is not Ukraine, Russia or one of its puppet states) will be permitted. This policy extends to all forms of media; if a youtube video or picture has not come through a neutral media source then don't post it or you'll be banned. If you wish to discuss this policy please use this website feedback thread.


I believe you are in violation sir!.

Of course they are going to say that
Ever noticed you can type "Starcraft" with just your keyboard hand?
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6343 Posts
July 18 2014 09:37 GMT
#631
On July 18 2014 18:29 WiggyB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2014 18:24 zeo wrote:
On July 18 2014 17:51 Mithhaike wrote:
On July 18 2014 17:43 zeo wrote:
On July 18 2014 17:27 WiggyB wrote:
On July 18 2014 17:04 LegalLord wrote:

What about the launchers themselves, at least the ones you are familiar with? Are those as reliable as the missiles, or do they get buggy?


I'm assuming that the Russian military had the same kind of standards when it comes to weaponry.
These systems are heavily tested at great expense. I've heard of cases of missiles exploding on the launcher, or exploding in mid air. But never heard of a case where a missile had hit a target other than the one specified.
There have been mistakes, but always human error as far as I am aware.
And after a quick Google on the BUK. It's been in service since 79. Thats over 35 years. If it was unreliable they wouldn't still be using it.

If you are interested in missile tests. YouTube "Sea Dart misfire HMS Gloucester". I would provide the link, but I'm on work Internet at the moment.
Don't worry no one was hurt, and everyone laughs about it now


The BUK's captured were incomplete at best. Though I doubt people watched the video posted earlier about surface-to-air missile overhaul procedure, if someone had seen it they would know the high amount of calibration needed when anything is changed or removed etc. from the system. They would need special facilities and equipment as well as a few test fires to calibrate the thing.

People need to stop jumping the gun and blaming whatever side for whatever reason. Just look at the facts.

I would like to enquire as to your source that the missiles captured were incomplete. From my understanding, the separatists claimed the missiles were working, while Kiev said it's not.

So you believe what Kiev says now? From your history you were highly skeptical of anything from Kiev, convenient timing to switch sides.
Like you said, look at the facts. Your postings has indicated that you have chosen a side, and your cherry picking of convenient "facts" are indicative too. Sorry you lack credibility IMO.

Well here is a statement (from today) from the Prosecutor General of Ukraine that rebel forces had not captured any BUK systems. Though its a Russian source citing the Prosecutor General of Ukraine it should be easy to find a Ukrainian (or any other) source for the same thing.
http://news.mail.ru/politics/18918028/?frommail=1
+ Show Spoiler +
После того, как был сбит пассажирский самолет, военные доложили президенту, что у террористов нет наших ракетных комплексов “Бук” и С-300, — сообщил генпрокурор. — Захвата этого вооружения не было

"After having been hit by a passenger plane, the military reported to the President that the terrorists have our missile systems" Buk "and C-300 - said the prosecutor general. - There was no capture of these weapons. "



edit: Here we go: https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainian-prosecutor-general-says-militants-did-not-seize-ukrainian-air-defense-launchers-356619.html

Ukrainian prosecutor general says militants did not seize Ukrainian air defense launchers

Show nested quote +
In order to maintain some kind of respectable thread quality and to show some respect for those who lost friends in this tragedy, we're forced to enact a hard line policy for this thread. Any posts holding an opinion on who is responsible or making an accusation that is not held by neutral media will be banned. Policy is in effect from page 27 onwards.

Specifically, citing a Ukrainian or Russian source for your claims is going to get you banned. Opinions/facts/accusations arising from neutral media sources (i.e. media whose country of origin is not Ukraine, Russia or one of its puppet states) will be permitted. This policy extends to all forms of media; if a youtube video or picture has not come through a neutral media source then don't post it or you'll be banned. If you wish to discuss this policy please use this website feedback thread.


I believe you are in violation sir!.

Of course they are going to say that

If you have both sides reporting on the same thing in the same way thats just more conformation that the news is true. No?

Elaborate why 'of course they would say that'? Why would Kiev deliberately lie? In your own opinion.
“What the public criticizes in you, cultivate. It is you.” - Jean Cocteau
Twisted
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands13554 Posts
July 18 2014 09:53 GMT
#632
Press conference by Dutch justice minister in 8 minutes.
Moderator
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5299 Posts
July 18 2014 09:58 GMT
#633
On July 18 2014 18:16 Ghanburighan wrote:
Apparently Russia closed several flight zones near the crash site hours before the incident, including the one the flight was flying into.
[image loading]
Source

Putin's jet flew trough that area/zone ~30min before malaysian airlines plane did, so it could be related.

User was warned for this post
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
July 18 2014 09:58 GMT
#634
There was also a dutch senator on the plane it seems. Doesn't make it worse, but perhaps a little more political.
Neosteel Enthusiast
Meavis
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Netherlands1300 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-18 09:59:36
July 18 2014 09:59 GMT
#635
any good places to follow that twisted?
"Not you."
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-18 10:05:21
July 18 2014 10:00 GMT
#636
On July 18 2014 18:59 19Meavis93 wrote:
any good places to follow that twisted?

http://www.npo.nl/live

oh apparently just the news journal not the press conference\

The stream on this page is going to show the press conference. http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/schok-en-ongeloof-na-vliegramp#node_963096
Neosteel Enthusiast
Twisted
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands13554 Posts
July 18 2014 10:06 GMT
#637
I'm guessing it's also gonna be up on Nederland 1.
Moderator
Sjokola
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands800 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-18 10:29:58
July 18 2014 10:24 GMT
#638
Holy shit man... I don't really understand why airlines would take any risk in flying over conflict zones.

Edit:
A Russian BUK missile launcher has been seen in separatist occupied territory. They don't say who's seen it. The BUK has the ability to take out planes at high altitudes. I "could" have been used to shoot it down. But there's no proof for it. Also Dutch ministry (at press conference) now also says it's likely that the airplane has been shot down.

Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974861/Malaysian-Airlines-crash-Russian-Mobile-missile-launcher-could-be-responsible.html
The BUK
http://rt.com/files/online-exclusive/galleries/tanks/anti-air-buk-missile-system/ttt_img_0599-2.jpg
Twisted
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands13554 Posts
July 18 2014 10:26 GMT
#639
Starts now on the npo.nl/live link
Moderator
hzflank
Profile Joined August 2011
United Kingdom2991 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-18 10:27:56
July 18 2014 10:26 GMT
#640
This has probably been posted already, but Ukraine is calming these phone calls are between Russian military and rebels.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28362872
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