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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important.
Actually, passenger pain and suffering is a very important factor to consider when determining compensation paid out.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On July 18 2014 06:03 Parametric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. It's less that, and more whether or not there might be any data on the black box that could help the investigation, On that same line of thought, can a black box even survive that?
Surviving plane crashes is exactly what a black box is designed for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecovered_flight_recorders
Barely any cases are a result of destroyed black boxes, usually they're lost or at the bottom of the sea.
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On July 18 2014 06:03 Parametric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. It's less that, and more whether or not there might be any data on the black box that could help the investigation, On that same line of thought, can a black box even survive that?
Maybe, but who knows. But it is never going to see anyone we would trust with the information. The US just confirmed it was hit by a missile, so we have that.
On July 18 2014 06:05 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:03 Parametric wrote:On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. It's less that, and more whether or not there might be any data on the black box that could help the investigation, On that same line of thought, can a black box even survive that? Surviving plane crashes is exactly what a black box is designed for.
Normal crashes. I don't think HE charges was a thing it was built to resist. It could still be out there, but there is a reasonable chance is was destroyed too.
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On July 18 2014 06:05 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:03 Parametric wrote:On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. It's less that, and more whether or not there might be any data on the black box that could help the investigation, On that same line of thought, can a black box even survive that? Surviving plane crashes is exactly what a black box is designed for.
Is a plane crash and a surface to air missile + a plane crash really equivalent?
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On July 18 2014 06:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:03 Parametric wrote:On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. It's less that, and more whether or not there might be any data on the black box that could help the investigation, On that same line of thought, can a black box even survive that? Maybe, but who knows. But it is never going to see anyone we would trust with the information. The US just confirmed it was hit by a missile, so we have that. Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:05 LegalLord wrote:On July 18 2014 06:03 Parametric wrote:On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. It's less that, and more whether or not there might be any data on the black box that could help the investigation, On that same line of thought, can a black box even survive that? Surviving plane crashes is exactly what a black box is designed for. Normal crashes. I don't think HE charges was a thing it was built to resist. It could still be out there, but there is a reasonable chance is was destroyed too.
There are two blackboxes, if one is destroyed, chances are the second would have survived the initial explosion.
This is pretty irrelevant anyway, the blackboxes wont tell much to answer the question of who fired the missile.
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Can't both sides just hand over the BUK systems in the area? Should be easy to determine when or if something was launched.
Joint investigation by both biased sides should do it.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On July 18 2014 06:07 Parametric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:05 LegalLord wrote:On July 18 2014 06:03 Parametric wrote:On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. It's less that, and more whether or not there might be any data on the black box that could help the investigation, On that same line of thought, can a black box even survive that? Surviving plane crashes is exactly what a black box is designed for. Is a plane crash and a surface to air missile + a plane crash really equivalent?
Allegedly, they did find it:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/end-malaysia-airlines-black-box/story?id=24607538
On July 18 2014 06:09 zeo wrote:
Can't both sides just hand over the BUK systems in the area? Should be easy to determine when or if something was launched.
Joint investigation by both biased sides should do it.
Neither side would be likely to be willing to cooperate, and there's no mutually trusted party that could conduct the investigation anyways.
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Whoever designed those boxes is crazy, holy crap.
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On July 18 2014 06:08 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:05 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 06:03 Parametric wrote:On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. It's less that, and more whether or not there might be any data on the black box that could help the investigation, On that same line of thought, can a black box even survive that? Maybe, but who knows. But it is never going to see anyone we would trust with the information. The US just confirmed it was hit by a missile, so we have that. On July 18 2014 06:05 LegalLord wrote:On July 18 2014 06:03 Parametric wrote:On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. It's less that, and more whether or not there might be any data on the black box that could help the investigation, On that same line of thought, can a black box even survive that? Surviving plane crashes is exactly what a black box is designed for. Normal crashes. I don't think HE charges was a thing it was built to resist. It could still be out there, but there is a reasonable chance is was destroyed too. There are two blackboxes, if one is destroyed, chances are the second would have survived the initial explosion. This is pretty irrelevant anyway, the blackboxes wont tell much to answer the question of who fired the missile.
There are two but they dont each record the same thing. They were also reportedly found already.
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On July 18 2014 06:01 Nyxisto wrote:
It doesn't really matter at this point anyway. It has already been established that the plane was hit by a ground to air missile. There's no more data to gain really from the plane itself.
They may be able to pinpoint the location of the SAM. They may be able to extract enough evidence from the wreckage and recorders to determine much more specifically what SAM did it. They may be able to determine exact timings and use satellite photos to extract more info on the SAMs movement over time, both before and after the shot.
It is not going to be as much of a smoking gun as you could have hoped for in terms of assigning blame, but it will not be completely useless either.
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On July 18 2014 06:07 Parametric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:05 LegalLord wrote:On July 18 2014 06:03 Parametric wrote:On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. It's less that, and more whether or not there might be any data on the black box that could help the investigation, On that same line of thought, can a black box even survive that? Surviving plane crashes is exactly what a black box is designed for. Is a plane crash and a surface to air missile + a plane crash really equivalent?
Those black boxes can survive bombs. It shouldn't be an issue.
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On July 18 2014 06:11 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:01 Nyxisto wrote:
It doesn't really matter at this point anyway. It has already been established that the plane was hit by a ground to air missile. There's no more data to gain really from the plane itself. They may be able to pinpoint the location of the SAM. They may be able to extract enough evidence from the wreckage and recorders to determine much more specifically what SAM did it. They may be able to determine exact timings and use satellite photos to extract more info on the SAMs movement over time, both before and after the shot. It is not going to be as much of a smoking gun as you could have hoped for in terms of assigning blame, but it will not be completely useless either.
Whats much more important than the blackboxes is the remain of the missile. Fragments of it are bound to be melted inside the fuselage.
Lets just hope they are not tempered with.
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Would the black boxes be able to tell whether or not they were given a warning (escort by fighters, etc) or have those theories been addressed already?
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Radar and Satellite images could easily detect that I imagine.
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On July 18 2014 06:05 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. Actually, passenger pain and suffering is a very important factor to consider when determining compensation paid out.
Not really. In the American and British legal traditions, you can't collect pain and suffering damages for dead people. Once they're dead, that's it. However, the heirs/survivors can make a claim for their pain and suffering as a result of losing the dead person.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On July 18 2014 06:16 Parametric wrote:
Would the black boxes be able to tell whether or not they were given a warning (escort by fighters, etc) or have those theories been addressed already?
It might, but there's always the possibility they didn't hear it (communication troubles can happen - KAL 007 had a bad transmitter for example). FSB/NSA/etc. might have been listening as well.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
Putin's statement:
"There is no doubt that the state within the borders of which this has happened is responsible for this horrible tragedy. This would not have happened if there was peace in that region, and if there was not a renewed military operation taking place. I am asking the Russian government to use the resources of its civilian agencies to thoroughly investigate this event. We must do everything possible to produce an unbiased reconstruction of the events and make it available to our people, to the people of Ukraine and the world. Such things are totally unacceptable and everyone must make conclusions, and the objective information must be made available."
+ Show Spoiler [Source (in Russian)] +http://www.gazeta.ru/social/news/2014/07/18/n_6319525.shtml
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On July 18 2014 06:19 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 06:05 ahswtini wrote:On July 18 2014 06:01 Plansix wrote:On July 18 2014 05:59 Parametric wrote:
Couple people saying conflicting things on whether or not a SAM would kill everyone instantly or not, either side have a source on that stuff? I think it is safe to assume that some peopled died instantly and other may not have. The moment they died doesn't really matter unless you want to debate how scared they were, which is morbid as fuck. Its sucked. How much it sucked isn't really that important. Actually, passenger pain and suffering is a very important factor to consider when determining compensation paid out. Not really. In the American and British legal traditions, you can't collect pain and suffering damages for dead people. Once they're dead, that's it. However, the heirs/survivors can make a claim for their pain and suffering as a result of losing the dead person.
Really? I know that I at least would feel more pain and suffering if a dear relative suffered a horrible, painful death than if they suffered a quick death that probably didn't hurt for long.
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At least 154 Dutch people died on the plane. So horrible...can't believe this.
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I think its safe to assume that the world had kept a close eye on that region recently. Im sure there are so many satellites watching, that a review of the data from today will point directly to where the missile came from and who controls that particular area. Considering what international intelligence services are capable of, this seems like child's play. I wouldnt be surprised of the US, and even other governments, already know the firing location.
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