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On September 08 2006 15:26 Agone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2006 15:13 Kwark wrote:
Ah. So now you call me stupid. Fine. The argument was over when you blamed terrorism on the victims. When you said that if an "ENTIRELY GUILTY FOR NO MAN IS INNOCENT" child is killed by a bomb he is to blame. Thats when you lost the argument. Understand? I see no point in replying further to one such as you. Ah so typical. I blamed terrorism partialy on the people that helped it to develop. And yes, sometimes those are ironicaly the victims of it. Note also how you try to pass from someone who acknowledge and agree with the action of their state to a little child. Too hard to face your responsability? You are not the little innocent that you would like to be? You can't stand to be for the torture of people and to be called a torturer. Continue to flee and deny your responsability, you don't have the strenght of mind to assume them.
Why are there about 5 posts on the 7th page of this thread that start with the word "Ah"?
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United States42990 Posts
On September 08 2006 15:54 Aphelion02 wrote :
Vaguely reminiscient of "the Jewish Solution", isn't it? Actions like these by are not only cowardly, but they also erode political and civil ideals by promoting doublespeak and hypocrisy.
If the Jews in Germany were terrorists then it'd be reminscent of the Jewish Solution. As far as I'm aware they weren't. So don't pull the Nazi costume on me. It doesn't fit.
I confess. I am a pragmatist. If the torture of one guilty man will save the lives of 100 I will consent to his torture. To an idealist that may seem unthinkable. But then what would you say to the families of those 100? That the right of the terrorist to not be tortured ranked above their right to life? The right to life of innocents. Could you say that? In the real world these choices come up. Two people will have conflicting rights. I'd make the pragmatic decision.
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On September 08 2006 15:45 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2006 15:26 Agone wrote:
Ah so typical. I blamed terrorism partialy on the people that helped it to develop. And yes, sometimes those are ironicaly the victims of it. What exactly did the American citizens do that justified 9/11? That was bad enough that 3000 of them had to die. You seem to feel that it was their fault. That they caused it. That the Muslims were justified in attacking. So tell us, what did they do wrong?
What about arming the talibans for example? If you don't have any clue about the actions of the USA durind these 20 last years, why do you try to discuss them?
You have some serious reading comprehension problem too. Where did I say it was justified? you don't know the difference between "having responsability" and "beeing justified"? If you hit someone in the face, you will have some responsability in the fact that he will hit you back. That doesn't mean that his action was justified
On September 08 2006 15:26 Agone wrote:
Note also how you try to pass from someone who acknowledge and agree with the action of their state to a little child.
Terrorists kill children too. However unlike US Marines, terrorists try and kill children. They deliberately set out to do so. And there are countless examples of Jewish school buses in Israel being suicide bombed if you even try and dispute that.
Oh, and Iran is led by a man who wishes the destruction of Israel. A man who, while denying the holocaust, says he'd have been happier had it really happened. A man who will proudly say that if he had the means, he'd kill every Jew alive. And a man who will shortly have access to nuclear material. Unless someone does something.... But of course you're opposed to those sanctions. Because the Jews deserve to die right? Because there's no such thing as an innocent.....
And second oh, far better a torturer of a terrorist using methods that may or not be torture depending on your definition to obtain information that will save innocent lives than a terrorist. I endorse torture in that context, you endorse terrorism. And then you bitch at me.....
What the fuck Israel has to do with the discussion? As for the dead of childrens, what about the massacre of Cana? But yeah, of course, when a US marine or some Israelian throw a missile on some civilians, he is innocent of the death of those people; he clearly didn't want to kill them. Of course, the fact that he esteems their lifes so low that he doesn't hesitate to bombard them is not a problem for you.
And now you try to make think I endorse terrorism? You know, blatant lies will not make you looks better nor will it help you win an argument.
I'm quite sorry that there are not the Goods in one side and the Bad in the others. I'm quite sorry that the actions of some people/countries is not all good as you would like to think. And I'm even more sorry that when someone points this to you, you need to stereotype him as someone who endorse terrorism so that you could feel better and not question your thoughts. But you will have to live with it. Good night.
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United States42990 Posts
On September 08 2006 16:14 Agone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2006 15:45 Kwark wrote:On September 08 2006 15:26 Agone wrote:
Ah so typical. I blamed terrorism partialy on the people that helped it to develop. And yes, sometimes those are ironicaly the victims of it. What exactly did the American citizens do that justified 9/11? That was bad enough that 3000 of them had to die. You seem to feel that it was their fault. That they caused it. That the Muslims were justified in attacking. So tell us, what did they do wrong? What about arming the talibans for example? If you don't have any clue about the actions of the USA durind these 20 last years, why do you try to discuss them? You have some serious reading comprehension problem too. Where did I say it was justified? you don't know the difference between "having responsability" and "beeing justified"? If you hit someone in the face, you will have some responsability in the fact that he will hit you back. That doesn't mean that his action was justified
Oh jeez. The US armed the Taliban against the USSR. They armed Bin Laden against the USSR. And because of this Bin Laden attacks them? Erm... and then you call me clueless. Well, unless you believe the USSR was behind 9/11 (I swear they built a fucking time machine) I can't see how the Taliban would hold that particular incident in American history as a grudge. I mean of all the things that piss me off most, recieving free weapons in the middle of a war probably isn't near the top. That leads me to conclude that my grasp of history is infinitely superior to yours. In the way that I am right. And you are wrong.
Oh, and you brought Iranian sanctions into it. And suggested American was wrong to stop Iran getting nuclear material. And then I pointed out the leader of Iran is committed to the destruction of Israel. And then I suggested he was possibly a bad person to let have nuclear material (same reason we wouldn't give it to Hitler, or any other mad antisemite). The Iran nuclear issue is entirely to do with Israel. We get to choose between Iranian nuclear capacity and Israel. We can't have both.
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On September 08 2006 13:42 Lemonwalrus wrote:I haven't opened a history book in a while, but wasn't the NSDAP the nazi party? And if so, doesn't this make the fact that you made this comparison unbelievably ironic?
Even if it does, it actually make sence. USA are using similar methods as nazi germany. Germany wanted to clean their country from jews and USA from terrorist. When Hitler got power, he wasnt clearly saying he wanted jews to be eliminated, he started on an anti-jewish propaganda and he slowly progressed to the total elimination of the jews,bush have practically being using propaganda on terrorism, but will he progress to the final stage?
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On September 08 2006 13:44 Kwark wrote:
National Socialist German Workers Party.
Spot on. lol.
NationalSozialistische Deutsche ArbeiterPartei
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On September 08 2006 13:21 Kwark wrote:
I'm with inc here. And the US doesn't harm these people. They use sleep deprivation, loud annoying noises (and I mean really loud), bright lights blaring into your eyes etc.... Shit that I'd hate to be faced with admittedly. But in the end if you tell them what they want to know you'll end up in court with nothing but bad memories to show for it. And what they want to know is where the terrorists trying to kill innocent US citizens are. The question is reasonable enough imo. Sure it's not nice but it's not torture as such.
Uh, I thought they were "secret" prisons. The locations haven't even been revealed, yet you know what is going on?
Why do you think it was necessary to hold these people secretly?
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On September 08 2006 16:41 Servolisk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2006 13:21 Kwark wrote:
I'm with inc here. And the US doesn't harm these people. They use sleep deprivation, loud annoying noises (and I mean really loud), bright lights blaring into your eyes etc.... Shit that I'd hate to be faced with admittedly. But in the end if you tell them what they want to know you'll end up in court with nothing but bad memories to show for it. And what they want to know is where the terrorists trying to kill innocent US citizens are. The question is reasonable enough imo. Sure it's not nice but it's not torture as such. Uh, I thought they were "secret" prisons. The locations haven't even been revealed, yet you know what is going on? Why do you think it was necessary to hold these people secretly?
exactly, i totally agree with you
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United States42990 Posts
On September 08 2006 16:39 NSDAP wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2006 13:42 Lemonwalrus wrote:On September 08 2006 13:28 NSDAP wrote:
secret prison AKA concentration camp I haven't opened a history book in a while, but wasn't the NSDAP the nazi party? And if so, doesn't this make the fact that you made this comparison unbelievably ironic? Even if it does, it actually make sence. USA are using similar methods as nazi germany. Germany wanted to clean their country from jews and USA from terrorist. When Hitler got power, he wasnt clearly saying he wanted jews to be eliminated, he started on an anti-jewish propaganda and he slowly progressed to the total elimination of the jews,bush have practically being using propaganda on terrorism, but will he progress to the final stage?
By similar methods exactly what do you mean? Can you name a single example of them killing someone in their custody. I can't really see how they are comparable. In the case of the US, they capture terrorists and hold them pending evidence and pressure them for information. In the other they round up innocent Jewish civilians and gas them. I mean think about it.... I can understand opposing US policy. But it's hardly mass genocide is it....
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United States42990 Posts
On September 08 2006 16:41 Servolisk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2006 13:21 Kwark wrote:
I'm with inc here. And the US doesn't harm these people. They use sleep deprivation, loud annoying noises (and I mean really loud), bright lights blaring into your eyes etc.... Shit that I'd hate to be faced with admittedly. But in the end if you tell them what they want to know you'll end up in court with nothing but bad memories to show for it. And what they want to know is where the terrorists trying to kill innocent US citizens are. The question is reasonable enough imo. Sure it's not nice but it's not torture as such. Uh, I thought they were "secret" prisons. The locations haven't even been revealed, yet you know what is going on? Why do you think it was necessary to hold these people secretly?
That is based upon reports by the British guys they let out of Guantamano. Trawl through the BBC websites and you'll find it somewhere. Cba to find link.
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On September 08 2006 16:48 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2006 16:39 NSDAP wrote:On September 08 2006 13:42 Lemonwalrus wrote:On September 08 2006 13:28 NSDAP wrote:
secret prison AKA concentration camp I haven't opened a history book in a while, but wasn't the NSDAP the nazi party? And if so, doesn't this make the fact that you made this comparison unbelievably ironic? Even if it does, it actually make sence. USA are using similar methods as nazi germany. Germany wanted to clean their country from jews and USA from terrorist. When Hitler got power, he wasnt clearly saying he wanted jews to be eliminated, he started on an anti-jewish propaganda and he slowly progressed to the total elimination of the jews,bush have practically being using propaganda on terrorism, but will he progress to the final stage? By similar methods exactly what do you mean? Can you name a single example of them killing someone in their custody. I can't really see how they are comparable. In the case of the US, they capture terrorists and hold them pending evidence and pressure them for information. In the other they round up innocent Jewish civilians and gas them. I mean think about it.... I can understand opposing US policy. But it's hardly mass genocide is it....
Im not, by any case, trying to prove Bush is doing a ''mass genocide'' , just saying Bush's using ''KIND OF'' similar method, i meant to hide secret ''Prisons'' just like Hitler was hiding concentration camps. Bush also used same kind of propaganda, the anti-terrorists one, which created a kind of ''hate'' against the middle-east people.
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On September 08 2006 16:39 NSDAP wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2006 13:42 Lemonwalrus wrote:On September 08 2006 13:28 NSDAP wrote:
secret prison AKA concentration camp I haven't opened a history book in a while, but wasn't the NSDAP the nazi party? And if so, doesn't this make the fact that you made this comparison unbelievably ironic? Even if it does, it actually make sence. USA are using similar methods as nazi germany. Germany wanted to clean their country from jews and USA from terrorist. When Hitler got power, he wasnt clearly saying he wanted jews to be eliminated, he started on an anti-jewish propaganda and he slowly progressed to the total elimination of the jews,bush have practically being using propaganda on terrorism, but will he progress to the final stage?
First of all, and I am in no way trying to be negative towards you or start a flame war, but does your name, added to what you've been posting, mean that you support hitler's views, or am I just associating your name incorrectly?
Secondly, I think your comparison of Hitler is to the Jewish as George Bush is to the terrorists, however hard hitting, isn't an apt comparison. Whereas Hitler basically decided that the Jews were the cause of all of Germany's problems, economic and otherwise, with absolutely no proof of this, George Bush (no matter the fact that I do not personally support him) was just reacting to attacks on his country. The Jews did nothing to cause Hitler to want them dead, the terrorist did many things. Not only have they done these things, but whenever some attrocity happens in the Middle-East, the organization that cause it makes sure that everybody knows it was them that did it. I do not support Bush, at least as far as the military actions that he has started, but I do not think he deserves in any way to have his good, although dumb, intentions compared with those of Hitler.
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On September 08 2006 16:55 Lemonwalrus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2006 16:39 NSDAP wrote:On September 08 2006 13:42 Lemonwalrus wrote:On September 08 2006 13:28 NSDAP wrote:
secret prison AKA concentration camp I haven't opened a history book in a while, but wasn't the NSDAP the nazi party? And if so, doesn't this make the fact that you made this comparison unbelievably ironic? Even if it does, it actually make sence. USA are using similar methods as nazi germany. Germany wanted to clean their country from jews and USA from terrorist. When Hitler got power, he wasnt clearly saying he wanted jews to be eliminated, he started on an anti-jewish propaganda and he slowly progressed to the total elimination of the jews,bush have practically being using propaganda on terrorism, but will he progress to the final stage? First of all, and I am in no way trying to be negative towards you or start a flame war, but does your name, added to what you've been posting, mean that you support hitler's views, or am I just associating your name incorrectly? Secondly, I think your comparison of Hitler is to the Jewish as George Bush is to the terrorists, however hard hitting, isn't an apt comparison. Whereas Hitler basically decided that the Jews were the cause of all of Germany's problems, economic and otherwise, with absolutely no proof of this, George Bush (no matter the fact that I do not personally support him) was just reacting to attacks on his country. The Jews did nothing to cause Hitler to want them dead, the terrorist did many things. Not only have they done these things, but whenever some attrocity happens in the Middle-East, the organization that cause it makes sure that everybody knows it was them that did it. I do not support Bush, at least as far as the military actions that he has started, but I do not think he deserves in any way to have his good, although dumb, intentions compared with those of Hitler.
okay, well as i explained to Kwarkz, im just comparing the methods.(propaganda,secret prisons(before it was secret concentration camps))
I actually ''support'' Hitler's view, but not regarding to the jewish systematic elimation. Hitler wasn't a bad dictator if we forget the genocide. He did many great things for Germany nonetheless
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United States42990 Posts
Ah, so Bush is hiding secret prisons like Hitler hid concentration camps and also like my sister hides her diary. They all hide things they don't want people to see. Shit! My sister is like Hitler. And so is George W Bush. Holy fuck!
On reflection, do you feel perhaps you used Hitlers name a little lightly. Ya know, when the comparison is that they both hide things they don't want people to see.
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Ok, something that i think needs clearing up in a big way in this and any political discussion; Acts by a goverment (say the USA) against an individual who is NOT a citizen of said country is not illegal unless a treaty with another country says that act is prohibited. And before you all claim the geneva convention, you should relize that the USA did NOT sign it.
that is all, please don't take this as taking sides, just making a point about people throwing the illegal claim around far too loosely. ie detaining foriegn "insert word you like here", invading iraq (which was actually called for IN a treaty, and other such things which while of morally debatable nature had no laws prohibiting them.
FLAME ON!
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United States42990 Posts
Only under US law. The US would think it was legal. In the country the guy came from it probably qualifies as kidnapping. In which case it depends on the country. The British guys got released. Sucks to be from anyone else though.
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On September 08 2006 17:04 Kwark wrote:
Ah, so Bush is hiding secret prisons like Hitler hid concentration camps and also like my sister hides her diary. They all hide things they don't want people to see. Shit! My sister is like Hitler. And so is George W Bush. Holy fuck!
On reflection, do you feel perhaps you used Hitlers name a little lightly. Ya know, when the comparison is that they both hide things they don't want people to see.
Dumbass.
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On September 08 2006 17:09 Kwark wrote:
Only under US law. The US would think it was legal. In the country the guy came from it probably qualifies as kidnapping. In which case it depends on the country. The British guys got released. Sucks to be from anyone else though.
But a goverment is not bound by another's law, it by definition has no jurisdiction.
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United States42990 Posts
On September 08 2006 17:12 NSDAP wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2006 17:04 Kwark wrote:
Ah, so Bush is hiding secret prisons like Hitler hid concentration camps and also like my sister hides her diary. They all hide things they don't want people to see. Shit! My sister is like Hitler. And so is George W Bush. Holy fuck!
On reflection, do you feel perhaps you used Hitlers name a little lightly. Ya know, when the comparison is that they both hide things they don't want people to see. Dumbass.
On September 08 2006 16:55 NSDAP wrote:
Im not, by any case, trying to prove Bush is doing a ''mass genocide'' , just saying Bush's using ''KIND OF'' similar method, i meant to hide secret ''Prisons'' just like Hitler was hiding concentration camps.
Eat shit 
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EPT
