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On October 08 2013 08:15 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 05:30 packrat386 wrote:On October 08 2013 05:17 Shiori wrote:Are you suggesting that the military's sole purpose is offensive? Be serious. Sole practice purpose? Basically, yes. America hasn't had anything even resembling a threat to their actual country in ages. What's more, maintaining an "active" military seems pretty unnecessary in peacetime, unless one is expecting to be attacked sooner or later. Either way, whatever minimal military would exist if one accepts the argument that one is required would be nothing like the one which presently exists. If you think that deterrence isn't a thing then you're wrong. Having our active military is what gives us influence in areas outside our own borders to protect american interests. Farvacola and sam!zdat might come tell you that doing so is a bad thing, but the US military absolutely serves a purpose. Okay, yes, it tautologically serves whatever purpose it is employed for. But if influencing areas outside one's borders and trying to "protect american interests" (whatever that means) is bad (and it is, at least in the sense one means when talking about the US military) then this isn't exactly a shining example of why militaries get a free pass while everything else gets cut (which was the original question).
If you're non American, it's obvious you don't care much about "Protect American interests", just as much as I do.
But for American that don't care about their own interests, they're just silly.
A sizable military with blue navy, military bases around the world is an example of power projection.
We aren't living in utopia, there are plenty of nations willing to take US's place as top dog any chance they get.
Take East Asia countries for example, American has high value to them not because of its fast food, but their military might as counter weight in the region. The rewards of closer relationship being arm sales, trade agreements, ally in international matters.
American can forfeit their influences in other countries all they like, but others simply won't let go the opportunity.
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On October 08 2013 08:15 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 05:30 packrat386 wrote:On October 08 2013 05:17 Shiori wrote:Are you suggesting that the military's sole purpose is offensive? Be serious. Sole practice purpose? Basically, yes. America hasn't had anything even resembling a threat to their actual country in ages. What's more, maintaining an "active" military seems pretty unnecessary in peacetime, unless one is expecting to be attacked sooner or later. Either way, whatever minimal military would exist if one accepts the argument that one is required would be nothing like the one which presently exists. If you think that deterrence isn't a thing then you're wrong. Having our active military is what gives us influence in areas outside our own borders to protect american interests. Farvacola and sam!zdat might come tell you that doing so is a bad thing, but the US military absolutely serves a purpose. Okay, yes, it tautologically serves whatever purpose it is employed for. But if influencing areas outside one's borders and trying to "protect american interests" (whatever that means) is bad (and it is, at least in the sense one means when talking about the US military) then this isn't exactly a shining example of why militaries get a free pass while everything else gets cut (which was the original question).
National defense (both domestic and allies) is pretty important so people tend to react pretty conservatively when it comes to adjusting defense budgets. No one wants to be the asshat that slashes military spending right before the next war or before an old fallen rival revives. So expect the US military budget to keep slowly deflating, as a radical cut and slash approach just won't find much support.
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On October 08 2013 08:15 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 05:30 packrat386 wrote:On October 08 2013 05:17 Shiori wrote:Are you suggesting that the military's sole purpose is offensive? Be serious. Sole practice purpose? Basically, yes. America hasn't had anything even resembling a threat to their actual country in ages. What's more, maintaining an "active" military seems pretty unnecessary in peacetime, unless one is expecting to be attacked sooner or later. Either way, whatever minimal military would exist if one accepts the argument that one is required would be nothing like the one which presently exists. If you think that deterrence isn't a thing then you're wrong. Having our active military is what gives us influence in areas outside our own borders to protect american interests. Farvacola and sam!zdat might come tell you that doing so is a bad thing, but the US military absolutely serves a purpose. Okay, yes, it tautologically serves whatever purpose it is employed for. But if influencing areas outside one's borders and trying to "protect american interests" (whatever that means) is bad (and it is, at least in the sense one means when talking about the US military) then this isn't exactly a shining example of why militaries get a free pass while everything else gets cut (which was the original question).
Dude, why do you think the Strait of Hormuz is still open. Iranian goodwill toward the foreign infidels or the 5th US fleet? Who do you think is keeping North Korea out of South Korea and China out of Taiwan?
I'm not saying every single thing that the US military does is worthwhile or good, but there are a lot of global forces that run counter to US interests in the most direct sense possible, you need a military that can act as a deterrent to prevent those things from happening. The only alternative is for the US to step down from global power, which is largely considered to be a bad idea given the detrimental affects of multipolarity.
edit: I'm with furymonkey as well.
lastly on the issue of funding, that shit aint cheap. You could arguably afford to spend a bit less if you shifted the US strategy to one of Offshore Balancing as opposed to boots on the ground, but even in that case you need to be spending the kind of cash to maintain a sizable technological advantage over you opponents. Given the fact that military strength is one way in the which US hegemony positively impacts the world, I see no reason to let it atrophy.
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IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy.
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On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy.
Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice.
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On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of reducing the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and American economy.
Honestly you clearly don't know what you're talking about. The ACA has always been Obama's baby, the republicans weren't surprised by his refusal to compromise on that, it was known way in advance that Obama and the democrats would not backpeddle on a law which was legitimately put into place by a congress which was less disliked than the current one.
You had to have been hiding under a rock to develop that craycray opinion an it's so glaringly factually incorrect that even republicans will dismiss it. They have arguments to blame Obama and that's not one of them.
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United States43989 Posts
On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy.
So it's his fault for tricking them into being destructive ideological assholes because without his compromising in the past they'd have set their destructive ideological asshole scopes on less ambitiously destructive things?
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On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy.
Okay, I don't mean to be a jackass, but really how stupid can you be?
There have been a handful of republicans that admitted they planned this, there's been a memo/email that was circulated by the Tea Party that was a 'How we'll shut down the government' and a blatant power play by one of the Tea Partiers. If you really think Obama planned all that...
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On October 08 2013 12:42 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy. Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice.
You may be right. But don't you think the republicans were tricked into doing it, because they expected President Obama to cave in at the last moment or shortly after the government shutdown?
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On October 08 2013 12:46 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:42 Leporello wrote:On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy. Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice. You may be right. But don't you think the republicans were tricked into doing it, because they expected President Obama to cave in at the last moment or shortly after the government shutdown?
With your logic, it's the bullied kid's fault for finally beating up the bully.
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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On October 08 2013 12:46 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:42 Leporello wrote:On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy. Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice. You may be right. But don't you think the republicans were tricked into doing it, because they expected President Obama to cave in at the last moment or shortly after the government shutdown?
Wouldn't they then be tricking Obama into caving in by threatening him with a government shutdown?
I mean if Obama's trick is to cave in, he's not much of a tactician.
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On October 08 2013 12:46 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:42 Leporello wrote:On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy. Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice. You may be right. But don't you think the republicans were tricked into doing it, because they expected President Obama to cave in at the last moment or shortly after the government shutdown?
Of course the republicans were tricked by master ruse man obama. Such a clever ploy by Obama to manipulate republicans into acting the same way they have always acted and in doing so preventing himself from accomplishing anything he actually wants. I can't wait for the next president (which will obviously be a democrat because of obama being the clever devil he is and manipulating both the american people and republicans) to do the same thing to the republicans again! In fact if the democrats keep using this tactic the republicans will never get into power.
Although they won't need to if that was the case.
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On October 08 2013 12:46 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:42 Leporello wrote:On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy. Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice. You may be right. But don't you think the republicans were tricked into doing it, because they expected President Obama to cave in at the last moment or shortly after the government shutdown?
Did Obama tell them, "Hey shutdown the government and I'll agree to your demands?" Or anything similar to that?
The Democrats made clear from the beginning that they would not "negotiate" under these kinds of threats.
Let's remember George W. Bush's awful Medicare plan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Prescription_Drug,_Improvement,_and_Modernization_Act
Which did such clearly stupid things such as "prohibit the Federal government from negotiating discounts with drug companies". Why do something like that? No good reason. This was an awful bill, which even the Republicans don't bother defending anymore. It was clearly more egregiously stupid than anything in Obama's ACA, although less comprehensive to be sure.
Did the Democrats, when they gained control of the House, demand that Bush's Medicare bill be overturned "or else"? The Democrats could have done this exact same approach -- make demands under the threat of holding the government's budget hostage.
They didn't. They never even entertained the idea, let alone get "tricked into it".
This is a Republic. This is an elected government. That is how changes get made -- elections are where parties are supposed to get their leverage. If Obama's ACA is so bad, then let the American people decide that.
What the Congressional Republicans did is just wrong. They weren't "tricked" into doing it. It was an obvious decision they chose. They're adults. No one lied to them about what would happen as a result of their choices. No one told them to shutdown the government, except maybe their sensationalist-loving tea-bagger constituents.
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On October 08 2013 12:52 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:46 Alex1Sun wrote:On October 08 2013 12:42 Leporello wrote:On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy. Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice. You may be right. But don't you think the republicans were tricked into doing it, because they expected President Obama to cave in at the last moment or shortly after the government shutdown? Of course the republicans were tricked by master ruse man obama. Such a clever ploy by Obama to manipulated republicans into acting the same way they have always acted and in doing so preventing himself from accomplishing anything he actually wants. I can't wait for the next president (which will obviously be a democrat because of obama being the clever devil he is and manipulating both the american people and republicans) to do the same thing to the republicans again! In fact if the democrats keep using this tactic the republicans will never get into power. Although they won't need to if that was the case.
Well, as far as I understand, ACA is being put in motion regardless of the shutdown + and republicans are getting the blame for the shutdown, so President Obama actually does achieve what he wants. If it happens the second time in the near future, then the Republicans will be to blame, because of "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me".
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On October 08 2013 12:42 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy. Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice.
Control over appropriation is shared between both the House and Senate. Both Reps and Dems have control.
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On October 08 2013 13:03 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:52 omnic wrote:On October 08 2013 12:46 Alex1Sun wrote:On October 08 2013 12:42 Leporello wrote:On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy. Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice. You may be right. But don't you think the republicans were tricked into doing it, because they expected President Obama to cave in at the last moment or shortly after the government shutdown? Of course the republicans were tricked by master ruse man obama. Such a clever ploy by Obama to manipulated republicans into acting the same way they have always acted and in doing so preventing himself from accomplishing anything he actually wants. I can't wait for the next president (which will obviously be a democrat because of obama being the clever devil he is and manipulating both the american people and republicans) to do the same thing to the republicans again! In fact if the democrats keep using this tactic the republicans will never get into power. Although they won't need to if that was the case. Well, as far as I understand, ACA is being put in motion regardless of the shutdown + and republicans are getting the blame for the shutdown, so President Obama actually does achieve what he wants. If it happens that second time in the near future, then the Republicans will be to blame, because of "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me".
Right, I guess I was wrong on my very last point but for the rest of my point I was agreeing with you. Obama is obviously purposely fucking the country over by manipulating the poor republicans into acting like children. I kinda feel bad for the republicans being tricked by such a clever and sinister person.
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On October 08 2013 12:43 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of reducing the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and American economy. Honestly you clearly don't know what you're talking about. The ACA has always been Obama's baby, the republicans weren't surprised by his refusal to compromise on that, it was known way in advance that Obama and the democrats would not backpeddle on a law which was legitimately put into place by a congress which was less disliked than the current one. You had to have been hiding under a rock to develop that craycray opinion an it's so glaringly factually incorrect that even republicans will dismiss it. They have arguments to blame Obama and that's not one of them.
Maybe. I don't pretend to know the politics well. What are the better arguments to blame President Obama in your opinion?
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On October 08 2013 13:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:42 Leporello wrote:On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy. Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice. Control over appropriation is shared between both the House and Senate. Both Reps and Dems have control.
Control over lack of appropriation is falling squarely on the House. It only takes one to stop the appropriation. Semantics.
The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice.
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On October 08 2013 13:08 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 13:06 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 08 2013 12:42 Leporello wrote:On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of lowering the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and the economy. Your honest opinion is factually incorrect. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice. Control over appropriation is shared between both the House and Senate. Both Reps and Dems have control. Control over lack of appropriation is falling squarely on the House. It only takes one to stop the appropriation. Semantics. The shutdown occurs from the Congress's lack of appropriation, controlled by the Republicans. It was, and continues to be, their choice.
The House has passed appropriation.
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On October 08 2013 13:08 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 12:43 Djzapz wrote:On October 08 2013 12:37 Alex1Sun wrote:
IMHO the blame is on President Obama here.
I am not a Republican, and I do not agree with many Republican ideas. However it seems to me that President Obama orchestrated this whole government shut down just to hit the Republicans.
President Obama has always been rather centrist and always tried to find a compromise with Republicans. They got used to it. I am certain that Republicans were sure the President Obama would start compromising this time as well. I also think that President Obama counted on them behaving the way they did. Then President Obama suddenly changed his usual behaviour and refused to cater to Republicans' demands. That must have been a big surprise for Republicans. Now President Obama can blame Republicans for the government shutdown, because he successfully tricked them into doing it. The majority of Americans side with President Obama here, so he has reached his goal of reducing the Republican popularity by hurting his own people and American economy. Honestly you clearly don't know what you're talking about. The ACA has always been Obama's baby, the republicans weren't surprised by his refusal to compromise on that, it was known way in advance that Obama and the democrats would not backpeddle on a law which was legitimately put into place by a congress which was less disliked than the current one. You had to have been hiding under a rock to develop that craycray opinion an it's so glaringly factually incorrect that even republicans will dismiss it. They have arguments to blame Obama and that's not one of them. Maybe. I don't pretend to know the politics well. What are the better arguments to blame President Obama in your opinion?
I don't know, I haven't been following it very much. I think the republicans would argue that Obama could put an end to this by pushing back the ACA and it's his fault because he doesn't do that. That's the one argument I can think of, and I don't think it's a very good one because it's unreasonable. The ACA is a law, like I said, and people have signed up for some of the benefits. The government can't easily yank it now.
The republicans have no good arguments, they're just doing this shit for practical reasons. Their other arguments are ridiculous because they try to make us believe that "Obama refuses to negotiate" but that's because their demands are completely out of this world insane.
This article is satire but it still manages to do a very great job of capturing the essence of the standoff:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/tea-party-leaders-announce-support-for-deal-in-exc,34101/
They're asking for Obama's child and then they complain when he doesn't want to hear it.
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EPT
