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On August 02 2013 21:43 beef42 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 21:37 hfglgg wrote:On August 02 2013 21:33 beef42 wrote:On August 02 2013 21:31 hfglgg wrote:On August 02 2013 21:29 beef42 wrote:On August 02 2013 21:26 hfglgg wrote:On August 02 2013 21:23 beef42 wrote:
I admit to not having read this entire thread, but I think this has more to do with the practical nature of security during a big event like the Olympics. I don't know whether or not official Russia persecutes gays, but I do know that there are a lot of Russians that do.
Almost every time you hear of a Pride parade or the like in Russia, you also hear of violent rioting and fighting in the streets. Obviously the authorities want to prevent such a thing happening during the Olympics and this law, while embarassing in western eyes, is pretty much all they can do.
So I don't think the Russian authorities deserve all this condemnation ITT. They just want to get the Olympics off without bullshit and I don't blame them. the law is not done especially for olympia. Yes it is. Fining and detaining foreigners for gay rights agitation? What the hell else would it be for? the law is in place for a while now (a few weeks). the IOC just stated that during the time of olympia this law would not be enforced (opposoed to the other 50 weeks of the year) which turns out to be not true. its no special anti-gay-olympia law. It might not say so in the text, but dude. Think about it. Why else would Russian authorities care what foreigners are up to? Note that the law is specifically aimed at foreigners. Since when does Putin & Co need to legislate to get rid of troublemakers? Remember Pussy Riot? are you saying that the law is only there for / because of olympia? because if so thats just not true. if they didnt pass this law, there wouldnt even be a discussion about lgbt rights during that time. up until now, russia wasnt overly oppressive against gays when you compare it to other countries like i.e. china. not official Russia, no. But among common people in the large country there are a lot of conservatives that will hit the streets to fight and throw stones at anyone who is too loudly gay. Surely you've heard of riots at Pride parades. Not only Russia, most of eastern Europe is like this. Pretty widespread culture. Now cue the olympics. Thousands of foreign athletes, coaches, journalists, tourists, etc etc will come to this town at once. The authorities don't know what will happen. They're worried. They don't want rioting during the Olympics which is a big prestige thing, so they pass this clumsy but symbolic law. They're saying "don't start any shit please, foreigners." What other motivation could there be for this law, other than keeping shit safe at this event? Why do you think they passed it then? Because Putin hates gays? Dude, then he would round them all up and throw them in jail. I will repeat; sure it doesn't mention the Olympics in the official text but man. Think. Why else?
it doesnt make sense to enforce a law that has the potential to start unwanted discussions and bring the whole country into an even worse light than it is right now. there were a lot of reasons for protesters to go on the street in russia, lgbt rights was a very minor one. now, with that law in place, the whole discussion started. without the law, nothing would have happend. win-win.
the russian society is _very_ homophobic. if you did a crime with a homophobic motive, your punishment would already be lighter as if you did the same crime for another reason. lawyers advised their clients to admit murdering someone because the victim was gay, because there was a higher chance to just get a minor sentence.
most russians also are in favour of this law with about 10% of the russian population agreeing with the statement "gays should be imprisoned" and about 5% even agree with gays being murdered.
i think this law is, as terrible as it sounds, what the majority of russians want.
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Which is what I've been saying all along and which is exactly why they don't want westerners with good intentions shitting all over their precious Olympics. Why would native Russians care about this law again? It's aimed at foreigners.
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It's wrong, they have officially declared they will not.
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On August 02 2013 21:57 beef42 wrote:
Which is what I've been saying all along and which is exactly why they don't want westerners with good intentions shitting all over their precious Olympics. Why would native Russians care about this law again? It's aimed at foreigners.
its aimed at everyone. if they dont want foreigners to shit over their precious olympics, they would just have done the opposite or at least not enforce it for the time of olympia.
russia just put fuel into the fire, that doesnt seem very smart to me.
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On August 02 2013 20:14 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 18:20 PiPoGevy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion, it's not hurting anyone Yeah, it's not hurting anyone. Because the society in Russia isn't letting tonnes of shit like this happen.Everything is fine. ...
That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.-
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On August 02 2013 22:01 PiPoGevy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 20:14 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 18:20 PiPoGevy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion, it's not hurting anyone Yeah, it's not hurting anyone. Because the society in Russia isn't letting tonnes of shit like this happen.Everything is fine. ... That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.-
The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning 
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On August 02 2013 22:15 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 22:01 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 02 2013 20:14 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 18:20 PiPoGevy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion, it's not hurting anyone Yeah, it's not hurting anyone. Because the society in Russia isn't letting tonnes of shit like this happen.Everything is fine. ... That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.- The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning
Connecting random events and assuming one leads to the other and then mocking others for not making the same silly assumptions is more than slightly concerning . It is much more logical to guess that they are both caused by the same factor, that the Russian population is very homophobic.
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On August 02 2013 22:22 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:01 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 02 2013 20:14 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 18:20 PiPoGevy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion, it's not hurting anyone Yeah, it's not hurting anyone. Because the society in Russia isn't letting tonnes of shit like this happen.Everything is fine. ... That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.- The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning Connecting random events and assuming one leads to the other and then mocking others for not making the same silly assumptions is more than slightly concerning . It is much more logical to guess that they are both caused by the same factor, that the Russian population is very homophobic.
Why don't you check what I was originally responding to? The Russian population is indeed homophobic, and laws like the one enacted help legitimise stuff like what I posted. I didn't think it required a particular explanation :/
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On August 02 2013 21:49 Evilmystic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 21:28 ZeRoX-45 wrote:On August 02 2013 20:26 Evilmystic wrote:
As long as Russian so-called elite is free to launder and invest the money that they steal from Russian people in Western countries without any reaction from local authorities whatsoever, shit like this will continue. Russian crooks will continue to buy palaces of gold and marble in London and Nice, their children will continue to study, work and live in Europe and the US, while locally the crackdown on all kinds of freedom and the growth of already widespread corruption and lawlessness will go on too. That is no way connected to LGBT rights. There is a direct connection. Briefly speaking Russian authorities are going with this anti-LGBT agenda in order to win support of conservative and less advanced part of Russian society. It also helps to fuel this external enemy idea, because western civil rights groups and governments criticise our government for violating the civil rights and a part of our society interprets it as an attack on our values and demographic policy.
I doubt they would introduce "external enemy idea" at all, especially over gay people. You must consider, even if it's true, that Orthodox church has very strong presence, as in my country, which is reacting every time against pride. Right wing is logical choice if people are living poorly and it will first appear in less developed countries like Greece, Russia or here. LGBT is just a small toy but I agree with your opinion which I hadn't in mind when I wrote my oneliner before.
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On August 02 2013 22:27 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 22:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:01 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 02 2013 20:14 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 18:20 PiPoGevy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion, it's not hurting anyone Yeah, it's not hurting anyone. Because the society in Russia isn't letting tonnes of shit like this happen.Everything is fine. ... That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.- The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning Connecting random events and assuming one leads to the other and then mocking others for not making the same silly assumptions is more than slightly concerning . It is much more logical to guess that they are both caused by the same factor, that the Russian population is very homophobic. Why don't you check what I was originally responding to? The Russian population is indeed homophobic, and laws like the one enacted help legitimise stuff like what I posted. I didn't think it required a particular explanation :/
You responded to someone saying enforcing this law isn't hurting someone by implying very clearly that it caused the people to be hurt in your link, which is frankly.... stupid. :/
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On August 02 2013 22:45 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 22:27 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:01 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 02 2013 20:14 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 18:20 PiPoGevy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion, it's not hurting anyone Yeah, it's not hurting anyone. Because the society in Russia isn't letting tonnes of shit like this happen.Everything is fine. ... That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.- The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning Connecting random events and assuming one leads to the other and then mocking others for not making the same silly assumptions is more than slightly concerning . It is much more logical to guess that they are both caused by the same factor, that the Russian population is very homophobic. Why don't you check what I was originally responding to? The Russian population is indeed homophobic, and laws like the one enacted help legitimise stuff like what I posted. I didn't think it required a particular explanation :/ You responded to someone saying enforcing this law isn't hurting someone by implying very clearly that it caused the people to be hurt in your link, which is frankly.... stupid. :/
See my previous post to explain the connection, which, again, I didn't think I needed to explain.
I can only apologise to you if you think I should be assuming stupidity and filling in the steps?
Anti-gay legislation helps to legitimise anti-gay actions by individuals/groups - why are you quibbling with me? :/
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On August 02 2013 22:47 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 22:45 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:27 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:01 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 02 2013 20:14 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 18:20 PiPoGevy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion, it's not hurting anyone Yeah, it's not hurting anyone. Because the society in Russia isn't letting tonnes of shit like this happen.Everything is fine. ... That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.- The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning Connecting random events and assuming one leads to the other and then mocking others for not making the same silly assumptions is more than slightly concerning . It is much more logical to guess that they are both caused by the same factor, that the Russian population is very homophobic. Why don't you check what I was originally responding to? The Russian population is indeed homophobic, and laws like the one enacted help legitimise stuff like what I posted. I didn't think it required a particular explanation :/ You responded to someone saying enforcing this law isn't hurting someone by implying very clearly that it caused the people to be hurt in your link, which is frankly.... stupid. :/ See my previous post to explain the connection, which, again, I didn't think I needed to explain. I can only apologise to you if you think I should be assuming stupidity and filling in the steps? Anti-gay legislation helps to legitimise anti-gay actions by individuals/groups - why are you quibbling with me? :/
There is no reason to assume laws like this LEAD to more of those attacks which is what you implied.
I didn't ask you to fill in the gaps, I'm just telling you what's in the gaps is wrong.
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Well, I disagree with you entirely. But I don't feel we need to discuss that here.
Carry on, good sir.
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On August 02 2013 10:22 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 10:19 Slaughter wrote:On August 02 2013 10:15 Artax wrote:
There are people in the US who finish high school and can't read, practically doomed to a life of poverty. There are people outside the US who are starving, people oppressed, people tortured, and us spoiled westerners can't stop talking about gay "rights" like a paper that says marriage. I'm all for gay rights but this is becoming a fucking obsession that pushes out far more important issues... I'm just sick of hearing about it every single day and constantly harped on by the mainstream media because it gets views and clicks when there are so much more pressing concerns but those don't have an edgy controversial political bent to them which gets shallow people to opportunistically spout some self-righteousness without actually doing or accomplishing anything.... The whole thing is sickening and boring and stale and I can't wait for anything, anything at all to become the new yuppie flavor of the month issue because anything at all is better than this exaggerated victimization. /rant The "there are worse things out there to support so stop supporting this!" argument is sickening and boring and stale. That's not the argument he's making. He's commenting on how today's young, liberal crowd are harping on gay rights like it's the most important thing in the world, while billions of people starve and genocides are commited across the globe. Personally, I'm rather annoyed of yuppies. Kids that have never worked a day in their lives, pampered by mommy and daddy, that think they know everything about the world.
Probably because legalizing same-sex marriage is literally as simple as the government letting two people of the same sex receive the exact same legal benefits/responsibilities as two people of the opposite sex through marriage. Stopping genocide/eliminating starvation are massive issues with no clear solutions. What's more, most of these things are the result of long-standing internal strife in nations/groups, and you can't just legislate them to stop fighting each other.
As for gay people, it's a matter that has absolutely no impact on anyone who isn't actually gay, so...
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On August 02 2013 22:53 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 22:47 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:45 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:27 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:01 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 02 2013 20:14 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 18:20 PiPoGevy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion, it's not hurting anyone Yeah, it's not hurting anyone. Because the society in Russia isn't letting tonnes of shit like this happen.Everything is fine. ... That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.- The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning Connecting random events and assuming one leads to the other and then mocking others for not making the same silly assumptions is more than slightly concerning . It is much more logical to guess that they are both caused by the same factor, that the Russian population is very homophobic. Why don't you check what I was originally responding to? The Russian population is indeed homophobic, and laws like the one enacted help legitimise stuff like what I posted. I didn't think it required a particular explanation :/ You responded to someone saying enforcing this law isn't hurting someone by implying very clearly that it caused the people to be hurt in your link, which is frankly.... stupid. :/ See my previous post to explain the connection, which, again, I didn't think I needed to explain. I can only apologise to you if you think I should be assuming stupidity and filling in the steps? Anti-gay legislation helps to legitimise anti-gay actions by individuals/groups - why are you quibbling with me? :/ There is no reason to assume laws like this LEAD to more of those attacks which is what you implied. I didn't ask you to fill in the gaps, I'm just telling you what's in the gaps is wrong.
Of course it will lead to more attacks. If the state makes laws implying that being homophobic is okay, homophic attacks will increase.
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On August 02 2013 23:44 phagga wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 22:53 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:47 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:45 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:27 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:01 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 02 2013 20:14 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 18:20 PiPoGevy wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion, it's not hurting anyone Yeah, it's not hurting anyone. Because the society in Russia isn't letting tonnes of shit like this happen.Everything is fine. ... That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.- The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning Connecting random events and assuming one leads to the other and then mocking others for not making the same silly assumptions is more than slightly concerning . It is much more logical to guess that they are both caused by the same factor, that the Russian population is very homophobic. Why don't you check what I was originally responding to? The Russian population is indeed homophobic, and laws like the one enacted help legitimise stuff like what I posted. I didn't think it required a particular explanation :/ You responded to someone saying enforcing this law isn't hurting someone by implying very clearly that it caused the people to be hurt in your link, which is frankly.... stupid. :/ See my previous post to explain the connection, which, again, I didn't think I needed to explain. I can only apologise to you if you think I should be assuming stupidity and filling in the steps? Anti-gay legislation helps to legitimise anti-gay actions by individuals/groups - why are you quibbling with me? :/ There is no reason to assume laws like this LEAD to more of those attacks which is what you implied. I didn't ask you to fill in the gaps, I'm just telling you what's in the gaps is wrong. Of course it will lead to more attacks. If the state makes laws implying that being homophobic is okay, homophic attacks will increase.
It is not obvious that a law that restricts public displays of homosexuality will increase the rate of homophobic attacks. This is the same fallacy as assuming that after the Trayvon Martin case, we can expect more self-defence killings in the U.S.
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On August 03 2013 00:02 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 23:44 phagga wrote:On August 02 2013 22:53 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:47 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:45 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:27 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:01 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 02 2013 20:14 marvellosity wrote:[quote] Yeah, it's not hurting anyone. Because the society in Russia isn't letting tonnes of shit like this happen.Everything is fine. ... That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.- The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning Connecting random events and assuming one leads to the other and then mocking others for not making the same silly assumptions is more than slightly concerning . It is much more logical to guess that they are both caused by the same factor, that the Russian population is very homophobic. Why don't you check what I was originally responding to? The Russian population is indeed homophobic, and laws like the one enacted help legitimise stuff like what I posted. I didn't think it required a particular explanation :/ You responded to someone saying enforcing this law isn't hurting someone by implying very clearly that it caused the people to be hurt in your link, which is frankly.... stupid. :/ See my previous post to explain the connection, which, again, I didn't think I needed to explain. I can only apologise to you if you think I should be assuming stupidity and filling in the steps? Anti-gay legislation helps to legitimise anti-gay actions by individuals/groups - why are you quibbling with me? :/ There is no reason to assume laws like this LEAD to more of those attacks which is what you implied. I didn't ask you to fill in the gaps, I'm just telling you what's in the gaps is wrong. Of course it will lead to more attacks. If the state makes laws implying that being homophobic is okay, homophic attacks will increase. It is not obvious that a law that restricts public displays of homosexuality will increase the rate of homophobic attacks. This is the same fallacy as assuming that after the Trayvon Martin case, we can expect more self-defence killings in the U.S.
.... it's not like that at all.
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On August 03 2013 00:03 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 00:02 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 23:44 phagga wrote:On August 02 2013 22:53 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:47 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:45 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:27 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:15 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:01 PiPoGevy wrote:
[quote]
That's called assault, nothing to do with rights -.- The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning Connecting random events and assuming one leads to the other and then mocking others for not making the same silly assumptions is more than slightly concerning . It is much more logical to guess that they are both caused by the same factor, that the Russian population is very homophobic. Why don't you check what I was originally responding to? The Russian population is indeed homophobic, and laws like the one enacted help legitimise stuff like what I posted. I didn't think it required a particular explanation :/ You responded to someone saying enforcing this law isn't hurting someone by implying very clearly that it caused the people to be hurt in your link, which is frankly.... stupid. :/ See my previous post to explain the connection, which, again, I didn't think I needed to explain. I can only apologise to you if you think I should be assuming stupidity and filling in the steps? Anti-gay legislation helps to legitimise anti-gay actions by individuals/groups - why are you quibbling with me? :/ There is no reason to assume laws like this LEAD to more of those attacks which is what you implied. I didn't ask you to fill in the gaps, I'm just telling you what's in the gaps is wrong. Of course it will lead to more attacks. If the state makes laws implying that being homophobic is okay, homophic attacks will increase. It is not obvious that a law that restricts public displays of homosexuality will increase the rate of homophobic attacks. This is the same fallacy as assuming that after the Trayvon Martin case, we can expect more self-defence killings in the U.S. .... it's not like that at all.
A convincing argument, old chap.
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On August 03 2013 00:08 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 00:03 marvellosity wrote:On August 03 2013 00:02 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 23:44 phagga wrote:On August 02 2013 22:53 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:47 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:45 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:27 marvellosity wrote:On August 02 2013 22:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 02 2013 22:15 marvellosity wrote:[quote] The fact you can't see how the two are connected is slightly concerning Connecting random events and assuming one leads to the other and then mocking others for not making the same silly assumptions is more than slightly concerning . It is much more logical to guess that they are both caused by the same factor, that the Russian population is very homophobic. Why don't you check what I was originally responding to? The Russian population is indeed homophobic, and laws like the one enacted help legitimise stuff like what I posted. I didn't think it required a particular explanation :/ You responded to someone saying enforcing this law isn't hurting someone by implying very clearly that it caused the people to be hurt in your link, which is frankly.... stupid. :/ See my previous post to explain the connection, which, again, I didn't think I needed to explain. I can only apologise to you if you think I should be assuming stupidity and filling in the steps? Anti-gay legislation helps to legitimise anti-gay actions by individuals/groups - why are you quibbling with me? :/ There is no reason to assume laws like this LEAD to more of those attacks which is what you implied. I didn't ask you to fill in the gaps, I'm just telling you what's in the gaps is wrong. Of course it will lead to more attacks. If the state makes laws implying that being homophobic is okay, homophic attacks will increase. It is not obvious that a law that restricts public displays of homosexuality will increase the rate of homophobic attacks. This is the same fallacy as assuming that after the Trayvon Martin case, we can expect more self-defence killings in the U.S. .... it's not like that at all. A convincing argument, old chap.
Hard to make an argument where I can't even really see what parallels you're drawing.
State sanctioned homophobia ---> homophobic actions by individuals
is the same as
Contentious self-defence case ---> more shootings?
Just no idea where you're going with it at all.
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Banning the expression and effectively banning protesting/speaking positively of homosexuals only further deteriorates an already poor social conditions of homosexuals. if you cannot see why this law would only further hurt homosexuals leading to more occurrences of things like this. The law effectively prevents things from getting better for homosexuals so they can either stay the same or get worse.
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EPT
