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On October 26 2019 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's not about thinking about having all the time in the world. In fact the pace taken by Theresa's May appeared to be rushed, then secretive, in her strategy to push through her version of brexit. In Boris's case, he really has little time, and he claimed originally to leave with no deal no matter what, then produced a suprise deal, which must have been one of many pre-agreed options.
British parliament is not a monolithic organisation. British Parliament is supposed to be collaborative and both PM's have chosen not to and have insisted on ignoring parliament. Then act shocked when parliament is uncooperative. For better or worse no party currently commands a majority, and the two biggest parties are trying to appeal to voters on both sides. Do you think an actual deal could have been found that is supported by a majority in parliament?
The one time Parliament took control and had a series of votes on what it found acceptable the result was that nothing was acceptable to a majority.
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On October 26 2019 06:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2019 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's not about thinking about having all the time in the world. In fact the pace taken by Theresa's May appeared to be rushed, then secretive, in her strategy to push through her version of brexit. In Boris's case, he really has little time, and he claimed originally to leave with no deal no matter what, then produced a suprise deal, which must have been one of many pre-agreed options.
British parliament is not a monolithic organisation. British Parliament is supposed to be collaborative and both PM's have chosen not to and have insisted on ignoring parliament. Then act shocked when parliament is uncooperative. For better or worse no party currently commands a majority, and the two biggest parties are trying to appeal to voters on both sides. Do you think an actual deal could have been found that is supported by a majority in parliament? The one time Parliament took control and had a series of votes on what it found acceptable the result was that nothing was acceptable to a majority.
Nothing on the table was acceptable.
That was back when both parties still lived in Brexit wonderland and Corbyn was talking about negotiating a better deal.
I have a feeling that slowly the reality of the rather bad cards they dealt themselves is sinking in.
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United States44382 Posts
On October 26 2019 06:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2019 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's not about thinking about having all the time in the world. In fact the pace taken by Theresa's May appeared to be rushed, then secretive, in her strategy to push through her version of brexit. In Boris's case, he really has little time, and he claimed originally to leave with no deal no matter what, then produced a suprise deal, which must have been one of many pre-agreed options.
British parliament is not a monolithic organisation. British Parliament is supposed to be collaborative and both PM's have chosen not to and have insisted on ignoring parliament. Then act shocked when parliament is uncooperative. For better or worse no party currently commands a majority, and the two biggest parties are trying to appeal to voters on both sides. Do you think an actual deal could have been found that is supported by a majority in parliament? The one time Parliament took control and had a series of votes on what it found acceptable the result was that nothing was acceptable to a majority.
Only if they had first created a national coalition government and negotiated the deal jointly.
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I feel like that was always a pipe dream though...
I'm pretty anti tory, but I didn't blame May for not trying this
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On October 26 2019 06:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2019 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's not about thinking about having all the time in the world. In fact the pace taken by Theresa's May appeared to be rushed, then secretive, in her strategy to push through her version of brexit. In Boris's case, he really has little time, and he claimed originally to leave with no deal no matter what, then produced a suprise deal, which must have been one of many pre-agreed options.
British parliament is not a monolithic organisation. British Parliament is supposed to be collaborative and both PM's have chosen not to and have insisted on ignoring parliament. Then act shocked when parliament is uncooperative. For better or worse no party currently commands a majority, and the two biggest parties are trying to appeal to voters on both sides. Do you think an actual deal could have been found that is supported by a majority in parliament? The one time Parliament took control and had a series of votes on what it found acceptable the result was that nothing was acceptable to a majority. Yes, I do. Normally parliament operate bilaterally, but both Theresa May and Boris Johnson refused to operate is such a manner, which is doubly confounding when both are heading minority governments claiming a mandate from a referendums which are not normally part of British democracy with a 48-52 vote when the Conservative party itself represent voters from both sides. Corbyn shares some blame, but you can understand when the Labour party was totally ignored even for input. Both are traditionally expected to share with Parliament details of negotiation and partially negotiation.
As it happened Theresa May resigned shortly after parliament took control of the process and so we will never know what Parliament could had decided.
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This election is going to be terrible.
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Another referendum would almost certainly be in remain's favour. I wonder how a new election would go, even if it does occur. Currently in voter polls, who we all know is entirely accurate and not subject to change and uncertainty, Boris has the Conservatives taking back voter support from the Brexit party, both Conservative and Labour are losing remain voters to Lib Dems, and it seems that SNP will regain lost votes from the Scottish Conservatives. What would happen if yet again votes with nominally leave parties are less than votes with nominally remain parties, but the Conservative party has the most MP's but no majority, so is to form a majority coaltion government?
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 29 2019 23:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Another referendum would almost certainly be in remain's favour. I wonder how a new election would go, even if it does occur. Currently in voter polls, who we all know is entirely accurate and not subject to change and uncertainty, Boris has the Conservatives taking back voter support from the Brexit party, both Conservative and Labour are losing remain voters to Lib Dems, and it seems that SNP will regain lost votes from the Scottish Conservatives. What would happen if yet again votes with nominally leave parties are less than votes with nominally remain parties, but the Conservative party has the most MP's but no majority, so is to form a majority coaltion government?
Such an interminably irritating process. Basically dancing Aron doing absolutely everything but having a second referendum.
How long a campaign trail would there be if a General was called anyway? As things stand I agree with your assessment, perhaps with a decent run some parties could reverse those trends.
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Boris Johnson has been preparing for a General Election since being PM. His speeches betray so. Corbyn possibly from ever since he gave a ridiculous set of demands for Labour to support Theresa May's deal. So it's hard to tell if there will be a change in trends or not. A general election being called might accelerate trends, give expected unchanging results or it might throw up an entriely unexpected result. I don't really do predictions unlike certain cheerleaders of the thread, who constantly embarrass themselves with their predicitions, but since I basically dislike the actions of almost every party involved I think my assessment is fair. What I find funny is that every major party seem to think it will gain MPs from the elections.
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I'm amazed at how quickly and easily you guys are able to just throw together a general election lol
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On October 30 2019 02:16 Mohdoo wrote:
I'm amazed at how quickly and easily you guys are able to just throw together a general election lol It helps if you don't have to do a 2nd election to decide who will lead each party going into the actual election.
Plus the US elections themselves could be done in a much shorter timeframe (tho obv still longer because the country is so much bigger and candidates need time to go around campaigning) if you get rid of the giant media spectacle it has become.
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On October 30 2019 02:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2019 02:16 Mohdoo wrote:
I'm amazed at how quickly and easily you guys are able to just throw together a general election lol It helps if you don't have to do a 2nd election to decide who will lead each party going into the actual election. Plus the US elections themselves could be done in a much shorter timeframe (tho obv still longer because the country is so much bigger and candidates need time to go around campaigning) if you get rid of the giant media spectacle it has become.
In Mohdoo's ideal world: All campaigns are only done through Youtube and scheduled TV/radio broadcasts of stuff posted on youtube. No rallies, no expenses. Just candidates making videos with something like a $10K budget.
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Interesting developments. I was convinced Brexit would happen until now. Looking forward to the results of the election.
NOT looking forward to the massive riots that will happen when/if Brexit is revoked, however.
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On October 26 2019 06:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2019 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's not about thinking about having all the time in the world. In fact the pace taken by Theresa's May appeared to be rushed, then secretive, in her strategy to push through her version of brexit. In Boris's case, he really has little time, and he claimed originally to leave with no deal no matter what, then produced a suprise deal, which must have been one of many pre-agreed options.
British parliament is not a monolithic organisation. British Parliament is supposed to be collaborative and both PM's have chosen not to and have insisted on ignoring parliament. Then act shocked when parliament is uncooperative. For better or worse no party currently commands a majority, and the two biggest parties are trying to appeal to voters on both sides. Do you think an actual deal could have been found that is supported by a majority in parliament? The one time Parliament took control and had a series of votes on what it found acceptable the result was that nothing was acceptable to a majority.
Boris deal got a majority in parliament. But parliament didn't like the timescale so they decided to have an election first.
31 oct is obviously out of the question now,not what I did expect. The uk doesn't realize how incredibly good this deal is for them and how bad it is for Europe so I am kinda happy if this deal fails to go through.
What to expect I don't know anymore,would think boris will win easily and then gets his deal through in the end but friends from England tell me that no one there likes boris and that its far from certain he will win.
I don't know anymore and I kinda also don't care anymore. It has taken to long,way to long. But maybe that was the point of it all.
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On October 31 2019 00:19 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2019 06:51 Gorsameth wrote:On October 26 2019 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's not about thinking about having all the time in the world. In fact the pace taken by Theresa's May appeared to be rushed, then secretive, in her strategy to push through her version of brexit. In Boris's case, he really has little time, and he claimed originally to leave with no deal no matter what, then produced a suprise deal, which must have been one of many pre-agreed options.
British parliament is not a monolithic organisation. British Parliament is supposed to be collaborative and both PM's have chosen not to and have insisted on ignoring parliament. Then act shocked when parliament is uncooperative. For better or worse no party currently commands a majority, and the two biggest parties are trying to appeal to voters on both sides. Do you think an actual deal could have been found that is supported by a majority in parliament? The one time Parliament took control and had a series of votes on what it found acceptable the result was that nothing was acceptable to a majority. Boris deal got a majority in parliament. But parliament didn't like the timescale so they decided to have an election first. 31 oct is obviously out of the question now,not what I did expect. The uk doesn't realize how incredibly good this deal is for them and how bad it is for Europe so I am kinda happy if this deal fails to go through. What to expect I don't know anymore,would think boris will win easily and then gets his deal through in the end but friends from England tell me that no one there likes boris and that its far from certain he will win. I don't know anymore and I kinda also don't care anymore. It has taken to long,way to long. But maybe that was the point of it all. I'll hold to the idea that Boris's deal got passed the second reading because it would allow for a bunch of amendments to get attached to it that would have buried it.
If there was an actual majority that wanted the deal as it stands there would be no need for elections and Boris and Corbyn would have agreed on a timetable and moved forward.
As for 'good for the UK and bad for the EU'. I wonder why you think that. There is no deal that can be called good for the UK that includes leaving the single market, effecting half their import and export. In addition to opening the way for reductions in worker right and environmental protection, things specifically removed by Boris in comparison to May's deal.
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United States44382 Posts
This deal may be good for Britain but it is the end of the UK. The Kingdoms that are united is Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The deal ends that unity and erects trade barriers down the Irish Sea.
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On October 30 2019 18:36 Laurens wrote:
Interesting developments. I was convinced Brexit would happen until now. Looking forward to the results of the election.
NOT looking forward to the massive riots that will happen when/if Brexit is revoked, however.
I fear there will be riots no matter how this is resolved. The argument behind pro-Brexit riots is obvious (feel cheated + combative language from politicians/newspapers) but I think there may be riots if Boris's deal is passed and I think there would be riots if we ever get a 'no deal' exit.
Pro EU folk in the UK have put up with a lot over the last few years. First the pro-leave side lied and cheated during the referendum campaign and condescendingly dismissed pro-EU arguments (eg. 'Project Fear' and Gove's quote about the public having had enough of experts). Since the referendum, the pro-EU side has been ignored, insulted, and blamed for all the problems. Eg. the 'remain parliament' gets blamed for May's deal failing when it was hard-Brexit Tory rebels and Jeremy Corbyn trying to bring down the government - although May did not get any input from Labour for the deal either, so it should not have surprised her whenn Labour refused to back her deal.
Recently, Boris tried to shut down parliament to avoid scrutiny, and has been accused by fellow Tories (and his sister) of pursuing no deal because his donors would benefit from no deal.
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I would say riots over these sort of things are unlikely, though recent language from Boris and his cabinet are deeply worrying in that they seem to be encouraging a deeper polarisation. There will likely be protests either way. The main issue for riots would be as always Northern Ireland. I'll give NI 20 years before it is ceded to Ireland if the Boris deal comes to pass, but there will be a lot of violence before that comes to pass.
On October 31 2019 00:54 Gorsameth wrote:
I'll hold to the idea that Boris's deal got passed the second reading because it would allow for a bunch of amendments to get attached to it that would have buried it. It got passed as a way of preventing a no deal brexit, in case the extention was not granted. Passing the short timetable would had passed Boris's deal before knowing whether the extention would had been granted, so it was denied. As it was the extention was granted and elections were called for, so now Boris's deal does not matter.
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United Kingdom10011 Posts
Absolutely nothing has been said in the UK press about the continuing extradiction of Julian Assange.
The only reports I've seen have been on RT which I won't link because its a bad source. However, John Pilger relayed his first hand account of the court hearing and its pretty shocking. Apparently Assange could barely speak and has lost a massive amount of weight, having been kept in solitary confinement since his arrest. The 'judge' in the court case was a magistrate (a civilian) who according to Pilger was clearly biased.
The hearing was to determine whether or not there could be a delay in his extradition to America. Why was none of this reported at all in the UK News?
I understand that there's other stuff going on but you would expect some kind of coverage, especially given Assange's allegedly deteriorating physical and mental condition.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Because the US wanted him that badly and the UK will just comply with it?
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