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On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing.
France and Germany won't leave the EU in a billion years, for political reasons alone. Also the effects of migrants on wages are ridiculously small. (http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/labour-market-effects-immigration)
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United States43981 Posts
On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing.
You need a history lesson sir. Germany and France founded the thing and Britain chose to stay out. Then the German and French economies boomed from all the trade while Britain's stagnated. After three decades of trying to be a strong independent economy that don't need no Europe Britain eventually caved and joined the EU because it was losing trade to Europe. Germany and France have been in without Britain and they were fine, they did so well Britain was forced to join.
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On May 09 2014 01:00 WhiteDog wrote:What the hell is going on in this video ? Why are they standing up every second for no reason ? British democracy seems pretty lively, I like it. Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. German I don't know, but french well we already voted against the Lisbon treaty but nobody cared.
They will I think. Without France and Britain, who are the germans going to export their massive car industry too? And thats unfortunate, I told you they we're undemocratic.
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On May 09 2014 01:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. You need a history lesson sir. Germany and France founded the thing and Britain chose to stay out. Then the German and French economies boomed from all the trade while Britain's stagnated. After three decades of trying to be a strong independent economy that don't need no Europe Britain eventually caved and joined the EU because it was losing trade to Europe. Germany and France have been in without Britain and they were fine, they did so well Britain was forced to join.
In fact, Britain was kept out because de Gaulle refused - the empathic "No".
After Charles de Gaulle's inauguration as president in January 1959, France seemed to have the upper hand for the first time since the beginning of the second world war. During the 1960s French gross national product grew at an average of 5.8% a year: it was the beginning of a French "renaissance" and of the period known as the "thirty glorious years", "trente glorieuses". In 1963, De Gaulle vetoed the British application to join the EEC declaring: "l'Angleterre, ce n'est plus grand chose" ("England is not much any more"). From this moment on, British efforts to join the EEC redoubled.[...]
On 28 April 1969 De Gaulle resigned, but high hopes for his successor were misplaced. As Gladwyn Jebb, Reilly's predecessor in Paris, admitted in June 1969, despite Pompidou's choice of more pro-British ministers: "Unfortunately there is no doubt that if [Pompidou] wants to block our entry into the EEC for a long time he certainly can."
In 1970, seven years after De Gaulle's first veto, British desperation reached new heights. In a final attempt to improve Franco-British relations, the Conservative Group for Europe (CGE) – which still exists today – made an astounding and unprecedented suggestion. On 22 December 1970 its chairman, Tufton Beamish, wrote to the undersecretary of state at the Foreign Office, Anthony Royle, to mark the centenary, in 1971, of the fall of Napoleon III and his flight into exile in Britain: "It has been suggested to me that the opportunity might be taken to cement Anglo-French relations by offering them the remains of the Farnborough mausoleum to complete their collection at les Invalides…"
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/13/britain-europe-david-cameron-eu
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United States43981 Posts
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On May 09 2014 01:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. You need a history lesson sir. Germany and France founded the thing and Britain chose to stay out. Then the German and French economies boomed from all the trade while Britain's stagnated. After three decades of trying to be a strong independent economy that don't need no Europe Britain eventually caved and joined the EU because it was losing trade to Europe. Germany and France have been in without Britain and they were fine, they did so well Britain was forced to join.
You may very well be right, but that was a long time ago. It's different now. Countries such as China, india, new zealand, australia etc. have strong economies and are becoming an economic power house. Times have changed.
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United States43981 Posts
On May 09 2014 01:08 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 01:05 KwarK wrote:On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. You need a history lesson sir. Germany and France founded the thing and Britain chose to stay out. Then the German and French economies boomed from all the trade while Britain's stagnated. After three decades of trying to be a strong independent economy that don't need no Europe Britain eventually caved and joined the EU because it was losing trade to Europe. Germany and France have been in without Britain and they were fine, they did so well Britain was forced to join. In fact, Britain was kept out because De Gaulle refused - the empathic "No".
Because back when the European Coal and Steel Community started Britain bet on the Empire and the Commonwealth over Europe and guessed wrongly. De Gaulle couldn't have stopped Britain from being a founding member.
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On May 09 2014 01:07 Joel-E wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 01:00 WhiteDog wrote:What the hell is going on in this video ? Why are they standing up every second for no reason ? British democracy seems pretty lively, I like it. On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. German I don't know, but french well we already voted against the Lisbon treaty but nobody cared. They will I think. Without France and Britain, who are the germans going to export their massive car industry too? And thats unfortunate, I told you they we're undemocratic.
If the UK and France would leave the EU the value of the Euro would go down even further which would mean we could sell even more cars. Sorry, what you're saying doesn't make any sense, you don't need to be a member of the EU to buy German cars.
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On May 09 2014 01:11 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 01:07 Joel-E wrote:On May 09 2014 01:00 WhiteDog wrote:What the hell is going on in this video ? Why are they standing up every second for no reason ? British democracy seems pretty lively, I like it. On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. German I don't know, but french well we already voted against the Lisbon treaty but nobody cared. They will I think. Without France and Britain, who are the germans going to export their massive car industry too? And thats unfortunate, I told you they we're undemocratic. If the UK and France would leave the EU the value of the Euro would go down even further which would mean we could sell even more cars. Sorry, what you're saying doesn't make any sense, you don't need to be a member of the EU to buy German cars.
No, but to export you're cars outside of the EU, you need to have a trade agreement put through the european commission.
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On May 09 2014 01:11 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 01:07 Joel-E wrote:On May 09 2014 01:00 WhiteDog wrote:What the hell is going on in this video ? Why are they standing up every second for no reason ? British democracy seems pretty lively, I like it. On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. German I don't know, but french well we already voted against the Lisbon treaty but nobody cared. They will I think. Without France and Britain, who are the germans going to export their massive car industry too? And thats unfortunate, I told you they we're undemocratic. If the UK and France would leave the EU the value of the Euro would go down even further which would mean we could sell even more cars. Sorry, what you're saying doesn't make any sense, you don't need to be a member of the EU to buy German cars.
If France, with its 75 billions balance of trade deficit, left the euro, it would go down ? You sure ? lol
It would go up so much Germany would buy American's debt and stockpile US Dollars in vaults to prevent a crisis (like China).
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On May 09 2014 01:12 Joel-E wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 01:11 Nyxisto wrote:On May 09 2014 01:07 Joel-E wrote:On May 09 2014 01:00 WhiteDog wrote:What the hell is going on in this video ? Why are they standing up every second for no reason ? British democracy seems pretty lively, I like it. On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. German I don't know, but french well we already voted against the Lisbon treaty but nobody cared. They will I think. Without France and Britain, who are the germans going to export their massive car industry too? And thats unfortunate, I told you they we're undemocratic. If the UK and France would leave the EU the value of the Euro would go down even further which would mean we could sell even more cars. Sorry, what you're saying doesn't make any sense, you don't need to be a member of the EU to buy German cars. No, but to export you're cars outside of the EU, you need to have a trade agreement put through the european commission.
So you want the UK to leave the EU and start protectionist policies? Because that worked out so well in the past. I don't see either Germany, France or the UK leaving the EU anytime soon. There's nothing to gain for any of the parties involved. Why would a country drive itself into political isolation voluntarily?
Edit: also regarding democracy. I think people are wrong if they equal direct democracy with maximum freedom. A functioning democracy is not a mob rule. Many people in the EU don't see the benefits they have because of it. The EU probably wouldn't even exist if the people would have had a vote in every decision. As KwarK mentioned the EU started with the French German steel & coal union only five years after the war, which is pretty amazing.
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On May 09 2014 01:24 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 01:12 Joel-E wrote:On May 09 2014 01:11 Nyxisto wrote:On May 09 2014 01:07 Joel-E wrote:On May 09 2014 01:00 WhiteDog wrote:What the hell is going on in this video ? Why are they standing up every second for no reason ? British democracy seems pretty lively, I like it. On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. German I don't know, but french well we already voted against the Lisbon treaty but nobody cared. They will I think. Without France and Britain, who are the germans going to export their massive car industry too? And thats unfortunate, I told you they we're undemocratic. If the UK and France would leave the EU the value of the Euro would go down even further which would mean we could sell even more cars. Sorry, what you're saying doesn't make any sense, you don't need to be a member of the EU to buy German cars. No, but to export you're cars outside of the EU, you need to have a trade agreement put through the european commission. So you want the UK to leave the EU and start protectionist policies? Because that worked out so well in the past. I don't see either Germany, France or the UK leaving the EU anytime soon. There's nothing to gain for any of the parties involved. Why would a country drive itself into political isolation voluntarily? Edit: also regarding democracy. I think people are wrong if they equal direct democracy with maximum freedom. A functioning democracy is not a mob rule. Many people in the EU don't see the benefits they have because of it. The EU probably wouldn't even exist if the people would have had a vote in every decision. As KwarK mentioned the EU started with the French German steel & coal union only five years after the war, which is pretty amazing.
We actually voted for the most important decisions, and back then europe was something that almost everybody was striving for. It was a way out of constant war in europe. Today europe is just an undemocratic structure that impose its stupid rule. Britain is special, as they have no real reason to resent europe (everything that is wrong in britain would have happened without europe), but everybody else in southern europe does.
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On May 09 2014 01:37 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 01:24 Nyxisto wrote:On May 09 2014 01:12 Joel-E wrote:On May 09 2014 01:11 Nyxisto wrote:On May 09 2014 01:07 Joel-E wrote:On May 09 2014 01:00 WhiteDog wrote:What the hell is going on in this video ? Why are they standing up every second for no reason ? British democracy seems pretty lively, I like it. On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. German I don't know, but french well we already voted against the Lisbon treaty but nobody cared. They will I think. Without France and Britain, who are the germans going to export their massive car industry too? And thats unfortunate, I told you they we're undemocratic. If the UK and France would leave the EU the value of the Euro would go down even further which would mean we could sell even more cars. Sorry, what you're saying doesn't make any sense, you don't need to be a member of the EU to buy German cars. No, but to export you're cars outside of the EU, you need to have a trade agreement put through the european commission. So you want the UK to leave the EU and start protectionist policies? Because that worked out so well in the past. I don't see either Germany, France or the UK leaving the EU anytime soon. There's nothing to gain for any of the parties involved. Why would a country drive itself into political isolation voluntarily? Edit: also regarding democracy. I think people are wrong if they equal direct democracy with maximum freedom. A functioning democracy is not a mob rule. Many people in the EU don't see the benefits they have because of it. The EU probably wouldn't even exist if the people would have had a vote in every decision. As KwarK mentioned the EU started with the French German steel & coal union only five years after the war, which is pretty amazing. We actually voted for the most important decisions, and back then europe was something that almost everybody was striving for. It was a way out of constant war in europe.
I don't think that's true at all. Every important treaty starting with the Schuman Declaration wasn't up for public vote. Back then basically all of it happened between statesman on the highest diplomatic level. I'm also pretty sure many people hated each others guts only five years after the war. I think you have a highly romanticized view of the past. Compared to the 50's - 70's the EU today is way more democratic and transparent than it ever was.
Today europe is just an undemocratic structure that impose its stupid rule.
No, it stands for the exact same things it stood for in the past. I just hope we don't need a war every few decades to remind people of that.
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On May 09 2014 01:49 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 01:37 WhiteDog wrote:On May 09 2014 01:24 Nyxisto wrote:On May 09 2014 01:12 Joel-E wrote:On May 09 2014 01:11 Nyxisto wrote:On May 09 2014 01:07 Joel-E wrote:On May 09 2014 01:00 WhiteDog wrote:What the hell is going on in this video ? Why are they standing up every second for no reason ? British democracy seems pretty lively, I like it. On May 09 2014 00:58 Joel-E wrote:
Oh and just for the record, Nyxisto, the reason German and French mainstream parties oppose UKIP and other euro-sceptic parties is because that they know that if Britain leave, then Germany and France will follow. Without britain it's simply not worth to stay in. Also, If germany and france left, britain would follow, without Britain, france and germany, the EU is nothing. German I don't know, but french well we already voted against the Lisbon treaty but nobody cared. They will I think. Without France and Britain, who are the germans going to export their massive car industry too? And thats unfortunate, I told you they we're undemocratic. If the UK and France would leave the EU the value of the Euro would go down even further which would mean we could sell even more cars. Sorry, what you're saying doesn't make any sense, you don't need to be a member of the EU to buy German cars. No, but to export you're cars outside of the EU, you need to have a trade agreement put through the european commission. So you want the UK to leave the EU and start protectionist policies? Because that worked out so well in the past. I don't see either Germany, France or the UK leaving the EU anytime soon. There's nothing to gain for any of the parties involved. Why would a country drive itself into political isolation voluntarily? Edit: also regarding democracy. I think people are wrong if they equal direct democracy with maximum freedom. A functioning democracy is not a mob rule. Many people in the EU don't see the benefits they have because of it. The EU probably wouldn't even exist if the people would have had a vote in every decision. As KwarK mentioned the EU started with the French German steel & coal union only five years after the war, which is pretty amazing. We actually voted for the most important decisions, and back then europe was something that almost everybody was striving for. It was a way out of constant war in europe. I don't think that's true at all. Every important treaty starting with the Schuman Declaration wasn't up for public vote. Back then basically all of it happened between statesman on the highest diplomatic level. I'm also pretty sure many people hated each others guts only five years after the war. I think you have a highly romanticized view of the past. Compared to the 50's - 70's the EU today is way more democratic and transparent than it ever was. No, it stands for the exact same things it stood for in the past. I just hope we don't need a war every few decades to remind people of that.
Why can't you understand that it IS undemocratic? The leaders of the commission are unelected, and some representitive of the EU is the acting leader of Greece. Disgusting.
What's wrong with "Political isolation"? Just because we leave the EU doesn't mean trade will stop. We will just be able to make trade deals for ourselves and trade with rising economies such as china and india. Oh and by the way, when you say "political isolation", we have the commonwealth. Which I think could be a great trading path.
Green tax, energry prices, the inability to make our own laws such as global warming (Which has been irrelevant since the mid 90's). The same legislation regarding health and safety etc for small business as multi-national corporations is just completely stupid, and just stifles British industry and growth. If there were different legislation for different sized companies and we still had our fishing waters instead of it being invaded by spain, then I might be a bit more reasonable towards Europe. I think the EU should be replaced with something else. That doesn't involve a united air force, one flag, one anthem and bullshit about protecting the enviroment by putting eye sores throughout our oceans and green peace land. It's just completely useless.
I think they're should be co-operation to some extent, just not the way it is at the moment.
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On May 09 2014 01:24 Nyxisto wrote:
Edit: also regarding democracy. I think people are wrong if they equal direct democracy with maximum freedom. A functioning democracy is not a mob rule. Many people in the EU don't see the benefits they have because of it. The EU probably wouldn't even exist if the people would have had a vote in every decision. As KwarK mentioned the EU started with the French German steel & coal union only five years after the war, which is pretty amazing.
Which would you prefer, direct democracy or maximum freedom?
I would prefer direct democracy, none of this bullshit about "just leave it alone, we know what's best for you".
The EU is undemocratic, but to be honest there's much worse things harming domestic democracy all over the world.
Lobbying is a much more dangerous and pervasive issue than the EU, and i don't see UKIP saying anything about that. Lobbying destroys democracies, rotting them and corrupting everything from the very top to the grass roots of a political system, making it impossible to stop, because is isn't in the interest of the people who benefit from it ie the people making the decisions and legislation.
The problem is, lobbying doesn't have that tagline about bloody foreigners stealing our jobs.
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On May 09 2014 02:01 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2014 01:24 Nyxisto wrote:
Edit: also regarding democracy. I think people are wrong if they equal direct democracy with maximum freedom. A functioning democracy is not a mob rule. Many people in the EU don't see the benefits they have because of it. The EU probably wouldn't even exist if the people would have had a vote in every decision. As KwarK mentioned the EU started with the French German steel & coal union only five years after the war, which is pretty amazing.
Which would you prefer, direct democracy or maximum freedom? I would prefer direct democracy, none of this bullshit about "just leave it alone, we know what's best for you". The EU is undemocratic, but to be honest there's much worse things harming domestic democracy all over the world. Lobbying is a much more dangerous and pervasive issue than the EU, and i don't see UKIP saying anything about that. Lobbying destroys democracies, rotting them and corrupting everything from the very top to the grass roots of a political system, making it impossible to stop, because is isn't in the interest of the people who benefit from it ie the people making the decisions and legislation. The problem is, lobbying doesn't have that tagline about bloody foreigners stealing our jobs.
I'm sorry, I'm unfamiliar with lobbying, what is it?
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United States43981 Posts
Joel-E you have no knowledge of the history or economics involved. Your suggestion that Britain leave the EU and place its lot with the Commonwealth was a mistake 60 years ago when the economic links involved were far stronger and Europe was a wartorn mess, and it's a mistake Britain is still literally paying for today. You need to read some books because it's clear that you are unfamiliar with the subject/
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I don't think everybody in the EU needs to have a vote on everything. That's not how representative democracies (which all Western states practice) work. If all the Wilders, Le Pens and Farages of this world that promise their people independence would get voted into power I'd be more than a little worried for all the minorities in the EU. Especially in the UK that seems to be where the Ukip draws their voters from. If something's wrong it's either the fault of Brussels, the Muslims or the gypsies.
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There's two sides to lobbying.
It can be good, but more often than not its used in a corrupt way to get legislation through in a companies own interest. Think about internet piracy legislation for example. What kind of politician in their right mind would introduce that, unless they were being influenced by a company that has a vested interest in it.
It is a massive problem in America where it has basically become an intertwined part of the political process. It isn't as widespread in the UK yet, but the EU is beginning to have problems with it.
When rich companies/people basically engineer ways to get politicians in their pocket. It can be done in many ways, but common ones include:
Funding projects (not directly linked to specific political parties) and then threatening to withdraw funding if politicans/governments don't do what they want.
Paying off politicians to influence the political process (illegal, but it happens alot - theere were some panorama investigations that led to politicians resigning because of this)
Creating massive webs of funding for public projects, therefore making yourself influential and unstoppable.
Indirectly funding political parties through donations in return for a say in policy. Again this is illegal but it has been shown that it happens.
Lobbying itself is not a problem per se, but the way it is done has to be very carefully monitored to ensure that money cannot buy legislation. Unfortunately it is rarely in the interest of a political party to be careful about this kind of thing, not in the short term at least.
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On May 09 2014 02:12 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't think everybody in the EU needs to have a vote on everything. That's not how representative democracies (which all Western states practice) work. If all the Wilders, Le Pens and Farages of this world that promise their people independence would get voted into power I'd be more than a little worried for all the minorities in the EU. Especially in the UK that seems to be where the Ukip draws their voters from. If something's wrong it's either the fault of Brussels, the Muslims or the gypsies.
I agree, but i do believe that every person in Europe should have a right to vote for who is in charge, and what 'style' of politics they practice.
In this way i believe Europe is undemocratic, but i wouldn't dream of voting to leave it. I just would prefer a democratic system.
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