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On April 19 2017 03:15 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 03:12 Plansix wrote:
Although I agree in principle, it is nice to know where people are from and how that may influence their point of view. And then there are the people who tactically omit that information. There are also people who don't pay enough attention and assume that said information is omitted - and basically are this guy to a fault. For example, I'm not sure how much more clear than --->vvvvvv<--- one can be.
If this wasn’t the 4th or 5th time the topic has been brought up across several political threads, you might have a point.
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On April 19 2017 02:48 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 02:39 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
For a while I thought that the EU would surely cut a deal, because it would be the most economically sensible decision at this point. As of now, I'm not too sure. Between the many strongly conflicting viewpoints of nations within the union and the desperate attempt to save a salvaged project by showing that membership in the EU will be treated as a form of economic blackmail (stay or else we will pass punitive measures against you) it's clear that we're not merely dealing with a hardliner face for negotiations but a fractured and confused group of nations. The A50 could have been avoided if only sane nations had negotiated with Britain in the past two years. How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day. No. EDIT: Wait, I want to change my answer. Yes. April 29 is just another day in EU - because on the 29th the now 27 EU countries will decide how deal with an issue like so many before. EU is much less paralyzed than you think. If you think Brexit was merely a consequence of what EU actually does you are ill-informed. Brexit was much more about how the British people thought EU worked and the imagined consequences. Ok, the British are just deluded and simply don't understand the EU. Everything is great and amazing and all the problems that people see stem from the fact that people just don't get it. If Britain hadn't voted to leave the EU then people would still be denying that the EU needs major reforms. It's clear that those who benefit greatly from its existence (a large group, not necessarily a majority, but a majority here to be sure) will take support for its existence to the grave. Thankfully anyone who opposes the EU is just ignorant so we're all good right now.
I know this a novel concept to you, but seriously: There is a middle of the road, nuances of grey, and moderate views.
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On April 19 2017 03:19 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 02:48 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:39 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
For a while I thought that the EU would surely cut a deal, because it would be the most economically sensible decision at this point. As of now, I'm not too sure. Between the many strongly conflicting viewpoints of nations within the union and the desperate attempt to save a salvaged project by showing that membership in the EU will be treated as a form of economic blackmail (stay or else we will pass punitive measures against you) it's clear that we're not merely dealing with a hardliner face for negotiations but a fractured and confused group of nations. The A50 could have been avoided if only sane nations had negotiated with Britain in the past two years. How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day. No. EDIT: Wait, I want to change my answer. Yes. April 29 is just another day in EU - because on the 29th the now 27 EU countries will decide how deal with an issue like so many before. EU is much less paralyzed than you think. If you think Brexit was merely a consequence of what EU actually does you are ill-informed. Brexit was much more about how the British people thought EU worked and the imagined consequences. Ok, the British are just deluded and simply don't understand the EU. Everything is great and amazing and all the problems that people see stem from the fact that people just don't get it. If Britain hadn't voted to leave the EU then people would still be denying that the EU needs major reforms. It's clear that those who benefit greatly from its existence (a large group, not necessarily a majority, but a majority here to be sure) will take support for its existence to the grave. Thankfully anyone who opposes the EU is just ignorant so we're all good right now. I know this a novel concept to you, but seriously: There is a middle of the road, nuances of grey, and moderate views.
No shit there are moderate views. I'm not really seeing what point you're trying to get at, other than to adopt a "close your ears and insist everything is going great" view of any disagreement. April 29 isn't going to somehow resolve the underlying issues that led us to the point where it became a day that became one of consequence.
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On April 19 2017 03:03 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 03:00 Shield wrote:On April 19 2017 02:48 Plansix wrote:The part of LLs post I find most amusing is that he constantly refers to economic blackmail and threats like they are some new invention or tactic that the EU cooked up. This was the status quo before the push for free trade and interconnected economic futures. Threats, bullying, favoritism and economic ruin were the tools of diplomacy. And they lead to conflicts and wars. Just because all of us never lived in a time where that was common doesn’t mean that it magically went away. On April 19 2017 02:44 Shield wrote:On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
For a while I thought that the EU would surely cut a deal, because it would be the most economically sensible decision at this point. As of now, I'm not too sure. Between the many strongly conflicting viewpoints of nations within the union and the desperate attempt to save a salvaged project by showing that membership in the EU will be treated as a form of economic blackmail (stay or else we will pass punitive measures against you) it's clear that we're not merely dealing with a hardliner face for negotiations but a fractured and confused group of nations. The A50 could have been avoided if only sane nations had negotiated with Britain in the past two years. How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day. "We"? Are you even British? You seem to be more interested in American politics than UK politics. LL is Russian. Then it's normal. Russians have been enemies of the European civilisation since at least 1944. It's obvious why they attack the EU - so that they can assert their imperial agenda. 1944 seems like an interesting choice of years. Upset about Bulgaria being invaded for being aligned with Nazi Germany in WWII?
I'm not upset about nazis. They're just as bad as communists. However, Soviet Union invaded Bulgaria despite
On 26 August, the Bulgarian government announced that it was neutral in the German-Soviet war and ordered German troops to leave the country. On the same date the Fatherland Front made the decision to incite an armed rebellion against the government.
You invaded a SOVEREIGN country for no fucking reason.
So, to repeat what I already said, I don't expect anything positive from Russia. They hate the EU. They hate NATO. They hate it when Americans and other European countries don't allow their imperial agenda. So, go care about your own country instead. It seems really poor and corrupt. Proof? Go watch "On Vam Ne Dimon" to see how corrupt Medvedev is.
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On April 19 2017 03:28 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 03:03 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 03:00 Shield wrote:On April 19 2017 02:48 Plansix wrote:The part of LLs post I find most amusing is that he constantly refers to economic blackmail and threats like they are some new invention or tactic that the EU cooked up. This was the status quo before the push for free trade and interconnected economic futures. Threats, bullying, favoritism and economic ruin were the tools of diplomacy. And they lead to conflicts and wars. Just because all of us never lived in a time where that was common doesn’t mean that it magically went away. On April 19 2017 02:44 Shield wrote:On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
For a while I thought that the EU would surely cut a deal, because it would be the most economically sensible decision at this point. As of now, I'm not too sure. Between the many strongly conflicting viewpoints of nations within the union and the desperate attempt to save a salvaged project by showing that membership in the EU will be treated as a form of economic blackmail (stay or else we will pass punitive measures against you) it's clear that we're not merely dealing with a hardliner face for negotiations but a fractured and confused group of nations. The A50 could have been avoided if only sane nations had negotiated with Britain in the past two years. How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day. "We"? Are you even British? You seem to be more interested in American politics than UK politics. LL is Russian. Then it's normal. Russians have been enemies of the European civilisation since at least 1944. It's obvious why they attack the EU - so that they can assert their imperial agenda. 1944 seems like an interesting choice of years. Upset about Bulgaria being invaded for being aligned with Nazi Germany in WWII? I'm not upset about nazis. They're just as bad as communists. However, Soviet Union invaded Bulgaria despite Show nested quote +On 26 August, the Bulgarian government announced that it was neutral in the German-Soviet war and ordered German troops to leave the country. On the same date the Fatherland Front made the decision to incite an armed rebellion against the government. You invaded a SOVEREIGN country for no fucking reason. So, to repeat what I already said, I don't expect anything positive from Russia. They hate the EU. They hate NATO. They hate it when Americans and other European countries don't allow their imperial agenda. So, go care about your own country instead. It seems really poor and corrupt. Proof? Go watch "On Vam Ne Dimon" to see how corrupt Medvedev is.
Not really interested in hearing your complaints or anything of the sort about how Russia was mean to you 70+ years ago - while it could be an interesting discussion with the right circumstances, this is neither the right thread nor a particularly interesting person to discuss it with. It would be more akin to listening to someone whining.
But no, this isn't a "Russian position." For reference, I'm an ethnic Russian living in the US (for the few Plansix-like individuals in these threads who don't know yet). It's neither the semi-official Russian position nor necessarily the most popular one. I'm afraid that it's more of my own than one of Russia. But I know how, in the death throes of a diseased Europe project which once promised to be something great, turned to blaming a foreign devils to explain why everything is going wrong. It's an easy game to play.
Oh well. The results of these negotiations, and the sustained Euroscepticism across the union, will all speak for themselves.
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On April 19 2017 03:38 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 03:28 Shield wrote:On April 19 2017 03:03 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 03:00 Shield wrote:On April 19 2017 02:48 Plansix wrote:The part of LLs post I find most amusing is that he constantly refers to economic blackmail and threats like they are some new invention or tactic that the EU cooked up. This was the status quo before the push for free trade and interconnected economic futures. Threats, bullying, favoritism and economic ruin were the tools of diplomacy. And they lead to conflicts and wars. Just because all of us never lived in a time where that was common doesn’t mean that it magically went away. On April 19 2017 02:44 Shield wrote:On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
For a while I thought that the EU would surely cut a deal, because it would be the most economically sensible decision at this point. As of now, I'm not too sure. Between the many strongly conflicting viewpoints of nations within the union and the desperate attempt to save a salvaged project by showing that membership in the EU will be treated as a form of economic blackmail (stay or else we will pass punitive measures against you) it's clear that we're not merely dealing with a hardliner face for negotiations but a fractured and confused group of nations. The A50 could have been avoided if only sane nations had negotiated with Britain in the past two years. How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day. "We"? Are you even British? You seem to be more interested in American politics than UK politics. LL is Russian. Then it's normal. Russians have been enemies of the European civilisation since at least 1944. It's obvious why they attack the EU - so that they can assert their imperial agenda. 1944 seems like an interesting choice of years. Upset about Bulgaria being invaded for being aligned with Nazi Germany in WWII? I'm not upset about nazis. They're just as bad as communists. However, Soviet Union invaded Bulgaria despite On 26 August, the Bulgarian government announced that it was neutral in the German-Soviet war and ordered German troops to leave the country. On the same date the Fatherland Front made the decision to incite an armed rebellion against the government. You invaded a SOVEREIGN country for no fucking reason. So, to repeat what I already said, I don't expect anything positive from Russia. They hate the EU. They hate NATO. They hate it when Americans and other European countries don't allow their imperial agenda. So, go care about your own country instead. It seems really poor and corrupt. Proof? Go watch "On Vam Ne Dimon" to see how corrupt Medvedev is. But I know how, in the death throes of a diseased Europe project which once promised to be something great, turned to blaming a foreign devils to explain why everything is going wrong. It's an easy game to play. Oh well. The results of these negotiations, and the sustained Euroscepticism across the union, will all speak for themselves.
Back to topic then, why do you persist with your anti-EU agenda in a UK thread by saying "we"?
On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
But no, this isn't a "Russian position." For reference, I'm an ethnic Russian living in the US (for the few Plansix-like individuals in these threads who don't know yet). How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day.
If the EU is so bad, why do you have to mislead people that you're British?
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Not sure where you got the idea I was unless you read more into that than you need to.
"We" refers to "we the people of the world who bear witness to the unfolding of these events." But that should be quite obvious.
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On April 19 2017 03:23 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 03:19 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:48 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:39 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
For a while I thought that the EU would surely cut a deal, because it would be the most economically sensible decision at this point. As of now, I'm not too sure. Between the many strongly conflicting viewpoints of nations within the union and the desperate attempt to save a salvaged project by showing that membership in the EU will be treated as a form of economic blackmail (stay or else we will pass punitive measures against you) it's clear that we're not merely dealing with a hardliner face for negotiations but a fractured and confused group of nations. The A50 could have been avoided if only sane nations had negotiated with Britain in the past two years. How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day. No. EDIT: Wait, I want to change my answer. Yes. April 29 is just another day in EU - because on the 29th the now 27 EU countries will decide how deal with an issue like so many before. EU is much less paralyzed than you think. If you think Brexit was merely a consequence of what EU actually does you are ill-informed. Brexit was much more about how the British people thought EU worked and the imagined consequences. Ok, the British are just deluded and simply don't understand the EU. Everything is great and amazing and all the problems that people see stem from the fact that people just don't get it. If Britain hadn't voted to leave the EU then people would still be denying that the EU needs major reforms. It's clear that those who benefit greatly from its existence (a large group, not necessarily a majority, but a majority here to be sure) will take support for its existence to the grave. Thankfully anyone who opposes the EU is just ignorant so we're all good right now. I know this a novel concept to you, but seriously: There is a middle of the road, nuances of grey, and moderate views. No shit there are moderate views. I'm not really seeing what point you're trying to get at, other than to adopt a "close your ears and insist everything is going great" view of any disagreement. April 29 isn't going to somehow resolve the underlying issues that led us to the point where it became a day that became one of consequence.
I'm saying that in the span of 2 posts you managed to give 2 completely hyperbolic and flawed representations of the topic of discussion. I'm saying that you are shit at substantiating any of your arguments and until you learn to argue with some nuance pretty please stay out of EU topics because by now we all know what you are going to say: "EU IS DOOOOOMED, DOOOOMED I TELL YOU".
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On April 19 2017 03:51 LegalLord wrote:
Not sure where you got the idea I was unless you read more into that than you need to.
"We" refers to "we the people of the world who bear witness to the unfolding of these events." But that should be quite obvious.
I think you're on a thin ice here with this excuse. It's quite obvious you wanted to be considered British or you failed to identify yourself as non-British on purpose. "We" in this thread implicitly means British people.
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On April 19 2017 03:54 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 03:51 LegalLord wrote:
Not sure where you got the idea I was unless you read more into that than you need to.
"We" refers to "we the people of the world who bear witness to the unfolding of these events." But that should be quite obvious. I think you're on a thin ice here with this excuse. It's quite obvious you wanted to be considered British or you failed to identify yourself as non-British on purpose.
Um... no? Just because you don't know doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. I never once claimed to be British or implied anything of the sort.
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On April 19 2017 02:22 bardtown wrote:I was just about to say I don't think the backstabbing was fatal  . They're still brothers. And these days even Ed looks positively competent.
How Ed Milliband was featured in prime minister's questions had a certain endearing effect and does reflect well on him considering what we have now. Never thought I'd be saying that. Labour's polling kind of shows it too.
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On April 19 2017 03:52 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 03:23 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 03:19 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:48 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:39 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
For a while I thought that the EU would surely cut a deal, because it would be the most economically sensible decision at this point. As of now, I'm not too sure. Between the many strongly conflicting viewpoints of nations within the union and the desperate attempt to save a salvaged project by showing that membership in the EU will be treated as a form of economic blackmail (stay or else we will pass punitive measures against you) it's clear that we're not merely dealing with a hardliner face for negotiations but a fractured and confused group of nations. The A50 could have been avoided if only sane nations had negotiated with Britain in the past two years. How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day. No. EDIT: Wait, I want to change my answer. Yes. April 29 is just another day in EU - because on the 29th the now 27 EU countries will decide how deal with an issue like so many before. EU is much less paralyzed than you think. If you think Brexit was merely a consequence of what EU actually does you are ill-informed. Brexit was much more about how the British people thought EU worked and the imagined consequences. Ok, the British are just deluded and simply don't understand the EU. Everything is great and amazing and all the problems that people see stem from the fact that people just don't get it. If Britain hadn't voted to leave the EU then people would still be denying that the EU needs major reforms. It's clear that those who benefit greatly from its existence (a large group, not necessarily a majority, but a majority here to be sure) will take support for its existence to the grave. Thankfully anyone who opposes the EU is just ignorant so we're all good right now. I know this a novel concept to you, but seriously: There is a middle of the road, nuances of grey, and moderate views. No shit there are moderate views. I'm not really seeing what point you're trying to get at, other than to adopt a "close your ears and insist everything is going great" view of any disagreement. April 29 isn't going to somehow resolve the underlying issues that led us to the point where it became a day that became one of consequence. I'm saying that in the span of 2 posts you managed to give 2 completely hyperbolic and flawed representations of the topic of discussion. I'm saying that you are shit at substantiating any of your arguments and until you learn to argue with some nuance pretty please stay out of EU topics because by now we all know what you are going to say: "EU IS DOOOOOMED, DOOOOMED I TELL YOU".
Well I'm glad you contributed so much more than complaints about opinions you don't like full of strawmans of the actual argument. That contributes so much more.
Yes, it would probably be better for the EU to end. The course of the Brexit negotiations will, among many other things, show that. I won't mourn its death, for good reason. And if what I said is "lies! hyperbole! ignorance!" as you clearly insist, then go ahead and provide more than just BS assertions.
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On April 19 2017 03:58 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 03:54 Shield wrote:On April 19 2017 03:51 LegalLord wrote:
Not sure where you got the idea I was unless you read more into that than you need to.
"We" refers to "we the people of the world who bear witness to the unfolding of these events." But that should be quite obvious. I think you're on a thin ice here with this excuse. It's quite obvious you wanted to be considered British or you failed to identify yourself as non-British on purpose. Um... no? Just because you don't know doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. I never once claimed to be British or implied anything of the sort.
No, you just omit that information and act as if you have a vested interest in this political stance. You argue from a place of assumed authority and vested interest when you have none. And throw up this false surprise every time someone points out the fact that you are not from the EU and Russian.
Once again, if this wasn’t the 4th or 5th time you can been called out on this specific style of posting, it wouldn’t be a big deal. I called you the Aaron Burr of the US politics thread well over half a year ago. Specifically because of your refusal to be pinned down to a specific stance, nationality or political view. You spout cynicism about others views while keeps yours close to your chest. And when challenged, you adopt this faux surprise, like we all just were not paying close enough attention.
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On April 19 2017 04:04 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 03:52 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 03:23 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 03:19 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:48 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:39 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
For a while I thought that the EU would surely cut a deal, because it would be the most economically sensible decision at this point. As of now, I'm not too sure. Between the many strongly conflicting viewpoints of nations within the union and the desperate attempt to save a salvaged project by showing that membership in the EU will be treated as a form of economic blackmail (stay or else we will pass punitive measures against you) it's clear that we're not merely dealing with a hardliner face for negotiations but a fractured and confused group of nations. The A50 could have been avoided if only sane nations had negotiated with Britain in the past two years. How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day. No. EDIT: Wait, I want to change my answer. Yes. April 29 is just another day in EU - because on the 29th the now 27 EU countries will decide how deal with an issue like so many before. EU is much less paralyzed than you think. If you think Brexit was merely a consequence of what EU actually does you are ill-informed. Brexit was much more about how the British people thought EU worked and the imagined consequences. Ok, the British are just deluded and simply don't understand the EU. Everything is great and amazing and all the problems that people see stem from the fact that people just don't get it. If Britain hadn't voted to leave the EU then people would still be denying that the EU needs major reforms. It's clear that those who benefit greatly from its existence (a large group, not necessarily a majority, but a majority here to be sure) will take support for its existence to the grave. Thankfully anyone who opposes the EU is just ignorant so we're all good right now. I know this a novel concept to you, but seriously: There is a middle of the road, nuances of grey, and moderate views. No shit there are moderate views. I'm not really seeing what point you're trying to get at, other than to adopt a "close your ears and insist everything is going great" view of any disagreement. April 29 isn't going to somehow resolve the underlying issues that led us to the point where it became a day that became one of consequence. I'm saying that in the span of 2 posts you managed to give 2 completely hyperbolic and flawed representations of the topic of discussion. I'm saying that you are shit at substantiating any of your arguments and until you learn to argue with some nuance pretty please stay out of EU topics because by now we all know what you are going to say: "EU IS DOOOOOMED, DOOOOMED I TELL YOU". Well I'm glad you contributed so much more than complaints about opinions you don't like full of strawmans of the actual argument. That contributes so much more. Yes, it would probably be better for the EU to end. The course of the Brexit negotiations will, among many other things, show that. I won't mourn its death, for good reason. And if what I said is "lies! hyperbole! ignorance!" as you clearly insist, then go ahead and provide more than just BS assertions.
If my complaints can pave the way for you to stop mucking up threads with posts that are merely repetitions (electability, EU is dead, etc) I will have contributed significantly.
Until you provide some solid support for your repetitions which also showcases that you actually understand how EU works I'll abstain from holding your hand through "How EU actually works 101" which is seemingly required if you are to understand why most of what you say is BS.
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On April 19 2017 04:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 03:58 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 03:54 Shield wrote:On April 19 2017 03:51 LegalLord wrote:
Not sure where you got the idea I was unless you read more into that than you need to.
"We" refers to "we the people of the world who bear witness to the unfolding of these events." But that should be quite obvious. I think you're on a thin ice here with this excuse. It's quite obvious you wanted to be considered British or you failed to identify yourself as non-British on purpose. Um... no? Just because you don't know doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. I never once claimed to be British or implied anything of the sort. No, you just omit that information and act as if you have a vested interest in this political stance. You argue from a place of assumed authority and vested interest when you have none. And throw up this false surprise every time someone points out the fact that you are not from the EU and Russian. Once again, if this wasn’t the 4th or 5th time you can been called out on this specific style of posting, it wouldn’t be a big deal. I called you the Aaron Burr of the US politics thread well over half a year ago. Specifically because of your refusal to be pinned down to a specific stance, nationality or political view. You spout cynicism about others views while keeps yours close to your chest. And when challenged, you adopt this faux surprise, like we all just were not paying close enough attention.
Sorry dude, your lack of attention to detail doesn't make any of this true. It just makes you the "big fat phony" guy.
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On April 19 2017 04:18 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 04:04 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 03:52 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 03:23 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 03:19 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:48 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:39 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
For a while I thought that the EU would surely cut a deal, because it would be the most economically sensible decision at this point. As of now, I'm not too sure. Between the many strongly conflicting viewpoints of nations within the union and the desperate attempt to save a salvaged project by showing that membership in the EU will be treated as a form of economic blackmail (stay or else we will pass punitive measures against you) it's clear that we're not merely dealing with a hardliner face for negotiations but a fractured and confused group of nations. The A50 could have been avoided if only sane nations had negotiated with Britain in the past two years. How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day. No. EDIT: Wait, I want to change my answer. Yes. April 29 is just another day in EU - because on the 29th the now 27 EU countries will decide how deal with an issue like so many before. EU is much less paralyzed than you think. If you think Brexit was merely a consequence of what EU actually does you are ill-informed. Brexit was much more about how the British people thought EU worked and the imagined consequences. Ok, the British are just deluded and simply don't understand the EU. Everything is great and amazing and all the problems that people see stem from the fact that people just don't get it. If Britain hadn't voted to leave the EU then people would still be denying that the EU needs major reforms. It's clear that those who benefit greatly from its existence (a large group, not necessarily a majority, but a majority here to be sure) will take support for its existence to the grave. Thankfully anyone who opposes the EU is just ignorant so we're all good right now. I know this a novel concept to you, but seriously: There is a middle of the road, nuances of grey, and moderate views. No shit there are moderate views. I'm not really seeing what point you're trying to get at, other than to adopt a "close your ears and insist everything is going great" view of any disagreement. April 29 isn't going to somehow resolve the underlying issues that led us to the point where it became a day that became one of consequence. I'm saying that in the span of 2 posts you managed to give 2 completely hyperbolic and flawed representations of the topic of discussion. I'm saying that you are shit at substantiating any of your arguments and until you learn to argue with some nuance pretty please stay out of EU topics because by now we all know what you are going to say: "EU IS DOOOOOMED, DOOOOMED I TELL YOU". Well I'm glad you contributed so much more than complaints about opinions you don't like full of strawmans of the actual argument. That contributes so much more. Yes, it would probably be better for the EU to end. The course of the Brexit negotiations will, among many other things, show that. I won't mourn its death, for good reason. And if what I said is "lies! hyperbole! ignorance!" as you clearly insist, then go ahead and provide more than just BS assertions. If my complaints can pave the way for you to stop mucking up threads with posts that are merely repetitions (electability, EU is dead, etc) I will have contributed significantly. Until you provide some solid support for your repetitions which also showcases that you actually understand how EU works I'll abstain from holding your hand through "How EU actually works 101" which is seemingly required if you are to understand how why most of what you say is BS.
You made the assertion that Britons didn't vote on what the EU actually is but rather on what they thought it was, implying there is a difference. You're essentially saying that we didn't know what we were voting for, and that requires qualification. Did we misunderstand about the ECJ being the supreme court in our country? About the EU requiring free movement of people that we don't want? About paying a huge net contribution and nevertheless having our concerns on these issues ignored? About the EU being incapable of reform, bearing in mind that we had just been through the farce of trying to achieve said reform? Those were the primary issues.
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On April 19 2017 04:18 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 04:04 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 03:52 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 03:23 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 03:19 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:48 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:39 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote:On April 19 2017 02:35 Ghostcom wrote:On April 19 2017 02:32 LegalLord wrote:
For a while I thought that the EU would surely cut a deal, because it would be the most economically sensible decision at this point. As of now, I'm not too sure. Between the many strongly conflicting viewpoints of nations within the union and the desperate attempt to save a salvaged project by showing that membership in the EU will be treated as a form of economic blackmail (stay or else we will pass punitive measures against you) it's clear that we're not merely dealing with a hardliner face for negotiations but a fractured and confused group of nations. The A50 could have been avoided if only sane nations had negotiated with Britain in the past two years. How about we wait with passing judgement until after the April 29th summit? You know, the summit where the EU-line is going to be discussed by the remaining 27 EU countries leaders? I know you enjoy your baseless yells of "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM", but could you tone it down until then? No. We've had more than enough over the years to know where the EU stands: all over the place. There isn't some magical summit that's going to change our minds about what we already know: that it's a pitiful excuse of a unified front paralyzed by a lack of consensus. We got to Brexit and then Hard Brexit not because of necessity but because of the EU. April 29 is just another day. No. EDIT: Wait, I want to change my answer. Yes. April 29 is just another day in EU - because on the 29th the now 27 EU countries will decide how deal with an issue like so many before. EU is much less paralyzed than you think. If you think Brexit was merely a consequence of what EU actually does you are ill-informed. Brexit was much more about how the British people thought EU worked and the imagined consequences. Ok, the British are just deluded and simply don't understand the EU. Everything is great and amazing and all the problems that people see stem from the fact that people just don't get it. If Britain hadn't voted to leave the EU then people would still be denying that the EU needs major reforms. It's clear that those who benefit greatly from its existence (a large group, not necessarily a majority, but a majority here to be sure) will take support for its existence to the grave. Thankfully anyone who opposes the EU is just ignorant so we're all good right now. I know this a novel concept to you, but seriously: There is a middle of the road, nuances of grey, and moderate views. No shit there are moderate views. I'm not really seeing what point you're trying to get at, other than to adopt a "close your ears and insist everything is going great" view of any disagreement. April 29 isn't going to somehow resolve the underlying issues that led us to the point where it became a day that became one of consequence. I'm saying that in the span of 2 posts you managed to give 2 completely hyperbolic and flawed representations of the topic of discussion. I'm saying that you are shit at substantiating any of your arguments and until you learn to argue with some nuance pretty please stay out of EU topics because by now we all know what you are going to say: "EU IS DOOOOOMED, DOOOOMED I TELL YOU". Well I'm glad you contributed so much more than complaints about opinions you don't like full of strawmans of the actual argument. That contributes so much more. Yes, it would probably be better for the EU to end. The course of the Brexit negotiations will, among many other things, show that. I won't mourn its death, for good reason. And if what I said is "lies! hyperbole! ignorance!" as you clearly insist, then go ahead and provide more than just BS assertions. If my complaints can pave the way for you to stop mucking up threads with posts that are merely repetitions (electability, EU is dead, etc) I will have contributed significantly. Until you provide some solid support for your repetitions which also showcases that you actually understand how EU works I'll abstain from holding your hand through "How EU actually works 101" which is seemingly required if you are to understand how why most of what you say is BS.
Got it. We're playing this game of "anything you say that I disagree with is merely ignorance."
You can feel free to follow me around and spout content-less "u dont knows what yous is talkin bout" commentary as long as you like. But start providing content or I'm afraid I'll just have to treat you like a troll - and give you about the time of day that a troll deserves.
The Brexit occurring and becoming a Hard Brexit was not at all a foregone conclusion as of a year ago. The unwillingness of the EU to budge on terms which are problematic, and yet essential to some ideological view of the organization, are reasons why we got to where we are. I know how common it is a strategy to look to dismiss anyone who sees the merits and demerits of the union differently, or to play the dismiss-by-nationality game. Mythical for example was a one-man army of blanket dismissal by nationality. And while I know that "all votes against are borne of ignorance" will be an argument taken to the grave for Europhiles, I think that perhaps a little self-awareness would go a long way to realizing exactly why it is that not everyone is playing the "I <3 the status quo" game right now.
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@LegalLord: I'm frankly unsure about how I can be any clearer than I am. I'm not playing the game of "anything you say that I disagree with is merely ignorance" - I'm playing the game of "everything you say is unsubstantiated by you and quite a lot of it is gross simplifications with little foundation in reality". Remedy either of these and stop the constant unsubstantiated repetitions and you shall receive no further complaints from me. The irony of you preaching self-awareness is not lost on me though.
@bard: I'm going to be hard pressed to produce conclusive evidence, as I don't have the means to give the UK population a multiple choice the day before they voted, however I can produce several indicators:
First indicator:
trends.google.com would be the first indicator.
The second indicator would be what the Leave/Remain campaigns argued and what the factual truths were - a brief and very superflous fact-check was brought by www.telegraph.co.uk. I think both in this thread and in the EU thread the campaigns were thoroughly discussed and as such I'm not going to go further in-depth here.
A third, fourth and fifth indicator is going to be the negotiations, the consequences in 2 years time, and the reactions to them. As you and I often end up: Time will tell who of us was right and we will have to endure the wait together
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On April 19 2017 04:59 Ghostcom wrote:@LegalLord: I'm frankly unsure about how I can be any clearer than I am. I'm not playing the game of "anything you say that I disagree with is merely ignorance" - I'm playing the game of "everything you say is unsubstantiated by you and quite a lot of it is gross simplifications with little foundation in reality". Remedy either of these and stop the constant unsubstantiated repetitions and you shall receive no further complaints from me. The irony of you preaching self-awareness is not lost on me though. @bard: I'm going to be hard pressed to produce conclusive evidence, as I don't have the means to give the UK population a multiple choice the day before they voted, however I can produce several indicators: First indicator: trends.google.com would be the first indicator. The second indicator would be what the Leave/Remain campaigns argued and what the factual truths were - a brief and very superflous fact-check was brought by www.telegraph.co.uk. I think both in this thread and in the EU thread the campaigns were thoroughly discussed and as such I'm not going to go further in-depth here. A third, fourth and fifth indicator is going to be the negotiations, the consequences in 2 years time, and the reactions to them. As you and I often end up: Time will tell who of us was right and we will have to endure the wait together
I never really understood the Google trending thing. If some old celebrity dies they probably become the top search result because kids see the news and search their name. Also, that search 'What is the EU?' was trending for months. It's not like nobody searched for it until after the referendum and then suddenly people started looking.
In fact, the trending numbers seem to imply the opposite of what you suggest. Notice how England has the highest interest in the EU referendum - and also the highest Leave vote. Wales second - with the second highest leave vote. Scotland and Northern Ireland are far behind - they voted Remain. It's almost like those who were more informed about the issue were more likely to vote Leave. Which, incidentally, was the case for the age group differential. Polling showed that the elderly knew more about EU institutions than the young. They were the ones who voted to stay in the EEC in 1975 and then watched it morph into the EU, after all. They are the ones who remember Tony Blair promising a referendum on the Lisbon treaty and then not delivering. They are the ones who remember the controversy around the Maastricht treaty, too.
People lie and exaggerate in political campaigns. I don't know if the UK is worse than other countries in this regard, but I honestly doubt it. The primary news source for the referendum was the BBC and they were pushing their fact checking throughout. Plus there were so many occasions where the two sides were head to head and had the opportunity to point out any inaccuracies.
I think that we probably focus on different aspects of the EU which leads continentals to believe we were mislead. In the east the EU is a force for democracy, whereas in the UK it is the exact opposite. In France, the EU is capitalist. In the UK, it's protectionist. Relatively speaking, we're all correct.
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If French people believe that the EU is capitalist, they are leaning too much toward the left wing then. EU is more of a social democracy with some of its benefits, which I actually enjoy.
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EPT
