EPTUK Politics Mega-thread - Page 265
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Velr
Switzerland10881 Posts
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
What is with this need to reform the empire or at the very least the common wealth? I still don't see what you could offer Canada. I mean they already make better cheddar (lol, but it's true) than you and would simply undercut all British farmers since OGM and hormone boosting style farming are largely deregulated in Canada. They have a plethora of natural resources and obviously, largely, benefit from the NA free trade contract (unless Trump destroys it which it would seem he ignorantly continues to threaten to do). You can't sell them cars, without operation in the EU London as a financial lieu is not nearly as attractive and they have Toronto anyways. They make everything you do but make more of it and thus have it cheaper. You can't sell coal to Newcastle; well you could now since they don't have any left. Furthermore Canada has very strict immigration laws. PMQs in the UK just seem so immature to say the least. At least good old Angus holds his own and is clearly setting T. May to admit she doesn't give a shit about Scotland and thus justify the 2nd referendum. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On January 23 2017 05:01 bardtown wrote: You're mistaking importing for being dependent on imports. There are very few products produced in the EU that we cannot import from elsewhere, particularly once we dismantle the ridiculous barriers to external trade the EU has erected. I'm not going to answer about my age because when I previously answered your personal queries you just implied I was lying. I also don't care for your opinions on my links, as you invariably dismiss them out of hand. Maybe you didn't notice but I want completely free movement/trade between the UK, AUS, CAN and NZ - as do the majority of people in all those countries - and I resent the fact that we ever moved away from those countries to waste our time with the EU. I get a minor headache there because I truly do not understand where did that bolded part come from. Is that because you think aus, Canada, nz share some insignificant linkage there, or simply because they speak English lol. Do you think that those countries 'respect' you better/ UK can boss them around or it means 'easier' for UK to undercut them or something?? That won't happen in 2000, let alone 2017 now. The reason that you 'moved away' from those countries because it is a rational decision ie to work with your neighbours closer to you lol. I cannot wait to see when May fucked up big time later when she realised she truly have nothing in hands for bargain. EU doesn't give a shit and will just ask UK to pay up. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
Do you think their success is coincidental, by the way? I suppose you think Hong Kong and Singapore are coincidentally exceptional, too? British values and institutions. Institutions that the EU consistently eroded. One thing you said was accurate at least. We have reached political postmodernism, and not just in the US. This generation is so pampered that their political views need no grounding in history or respect for reality. Values are just for when it's convenient and rational thought is an obstacle to be overcome in justifying preconceptions. Can't wait for the rise of the robots and humanity's last stand tbqh. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10881 Posts
GB allready had the best deal of pretty much any rich EU Country. I still don't see what you have to gain from this and why would financial centeres like Singapore/Hongkong want to jump on the Ship with GB? London is their direct competition. At the same time you pissed of the Scots and NIrish putting your beloved Union under extra stress and still have no clue what exactly will happen aside from the trumpian "we make a better deal". | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
On January 23 2017 16:49 bardtown wrote: Truthfully, you are beyond ignorant. Do you think those countries are English speaking coincidentally? Do you think there is some contradiction in trading with countries that were literally under the same administration and considered themselves English until a couple of generations ago? Did you sleep through the invention of shipping, or aeroplanes? Have you even heard of the 'Five Eyes'? It is amusing to hear people talk about 'shared history' and 'shared values' of the EU and then scoff at the idea of CANZUK cooperation. CANZUK countries have been working together constantly for centuries while Europeans ripped each others throats out in an ever-changing jumble of dictators, alliances and pseudo-friendships. Do you think their success is coincidental, by the way? I suppose you think Hong Kong and Singapore are coincidentally exceptional, too? British values and institutions. Institutions that the EU consistently eroded. One thing you said was accurate at least. We have reached political postmodernism, and not just in the US. This generation is so pampered that their political views need no grounding in history or respect for reality. Values are just for when it's convenient and rational thought is an obstacle to be overcome in justifying preconceptions. Can't wait for the rise of the robots and humanity's last stand tbqh. Yeah what would I know I mean I'm only Canadian. A couple of generations? roflmao. It has not been a couple of generations, I knew several people who were 5th generation Canadian and that was 15 years ago. Canada is a salad bowl with people having and keeping their own cultures from all over the globe, and most notably China. It may be true in 1850 what you are saying but it definately is not anymore. And then of course there's the Brits deluded sense of selfimportance thinking that they are more powerful or have a stronger voice than anyone they need to shape alliances with. You don't need to look further than Brexit for that, the UK actually believes it is stronger than 27 other countries, it wouldn't even matter who those countries were but the fact that they comprise of some of the oldest and most powerful empires along with the current strength of France and Germany says it all. So apart from your misguided sense of cultural values and sharing a language (1/2 languages) what do you have to offer Canada? I really can't think of anything, maybe a better tax haven more advantageous than Barbados and less transparency in your stock exchange, although the countries don't even use the same financial reporting styles, and the NYSE is just down the road. So Brexit fails, the common wealth doesn't give a shit about you so you want there to be a Terminator-esque Apocalypse? lol. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On January 23 2017 16:49 bardtown wrote: Fantasy is not the same thing as reality bardtown. You want free movement and trade between these countires, but sadly this will not be a reality whether or not UK leaves the EU. Though I do rather like the idea of emigrating to Australia myself. Anyways, you made the point in your rant that you think that antagonistic nationalistic feelings is the same as rationality. I was going to say more but I think that is the point that should stand the most. Truthfully, you are beyond ignorant. Do you think those countries are English speaking coincidentally? Do you think there is some contradiction in trading with countries that were literally under the same administration and considered themselves English until a couple of generations ago? Did you sleep through the invention of shipping, or aeroplanes? Have you even heard of the 'Five Eyes'? It is amusing to hear people talk about 'shared history' and 'shared values' of the EU and then scoff at the idea of CANZUK cooperation. CANZUK countries have been working together constantly for centuries while Europeans ripped each others throats out in an ever-changing jumble of dictators, alliances and pseudo-friendships. On January 23 2017 16:49 bardtown wrote: Clearly the past British value of conquering the best spots for sea trading was coincidential as well? Have you ever looked at a map by the way? During the time of british rule, neither Singapore nor Hong Kong was ruled under what we would understand as British values and institutions seeing as they were ruled by unelected British Governors and Singapore in particular was rather lawless. A little history knowledge goes a long way to expose the crap you write.Do you think their success is coincidental, by the way? I suppose you think Hong Kong and Singapore are coincidentally exceptional, too? On January 23 2017 16:49 bardtown wrote: Such as? I've said this before; nationalistic chest beating does not make an argument, except in your own head.British values and institutions. Institutions that the EU consistently eroded. On January 23 2017 16:49 bardtown wrote: Ironic is it not? You appear to be completely and deliberately oblivious to reality and indeed rationality.One thing you said was accurate at least. We have reached political postmodernism, and not just in the US. This generation is so pampered that their political views need no grounding in history or respect for reality. Values are just for when it's convenient and rational thought is an obstacle to be overcome in justifying preconceptions. On January 23 2017 16:49 bardtown wrote: You've gone completely off the deep end. I now regret going step by step replying in all seriousness to someone who writes rubbish like this.Can't wait for the rise of the robots and humanity's last stand tbqh. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Theresa May was told about the test of a Trident missile that reportedly misfired, less than a week before she held a House of Commons vote on renewing the £40bn nuclear system. The prime minister’s spokeswoman insisted on Monday that the operation was successful because the submarine HMS Vengeance and its crew were “certified” afterwards. However, she repeatedly refused to deny reports that a serious malfunction occurred during the test, saying the government would not get into operational details. The disclosure comes after May declined four times to say what she knew about the apparent error when interviewed on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show on Sunday. Labour has been granted an urgent question on the Trident test, meaning Michael Fallon, the defence secretary, will have to appear before MPs on Monday afternoon. Downing Street is facing growing accusations of a cover-up as the prime minister stood up in the Commons to ask MPs to vote for the renewal of the Trident programme on 18 July without telling them about problems with the missile system. In that debate, May said she would be willing to authorise a nuclear strike that could kill 100,000 people, as the Commons voted overwhelmingly to replace Britain’s Trident programme. Downing Street insisted it was a longstanding policy not to comment on the operational detail of Trident tests, but there was publicity around similar ones in 2005, 2009 and 2012. Source | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
Young adults (18-35) are most supportive notably in New Zealand and Australia with 90% and 80% respectively; while 77% of Canadians aged 30-39 are most supportive. Overall opposition to the idea is slim with only 1 in 10 not in favour from Australia and New Zealand, 15% in Canada, and one in five in the UK (19%). https://www.thercs.org/assets/Press-Releases/UK-polling-release-embargoed-13.03.16-1.pdf Are you French Canadian? That would explain a lot. Once again I have a little troop of people criticising me when I'm discussing something that has overwhelming popular support. Well, if you keep disagreeing with everything I say out of hand I suppose you're bound to be right at least once, eventually. You want free movement and trade between these countires, but sadly this will not be a reality whether or not UK leaves the EU. You realise literally every single one of those countries is talking about making free trade deals with the UK already? And free movement is hardly a step up from the preferential immigration rules that already apply between these countries? And how can you not recognise that the supremacy of the EU's mockery of a parliament and the European courts erodes British institutions? And then, to answer my question: yes, you think it is coincidental that New Zealand, Canada, Australia, Hong Kong and Singapore are so successful. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9843 Posts
On January 24 2017 04:29 LegalLord wrote: Question for the Brits among us: what is your opinion on the "special relationship" with the US? Is it worth keeping or is it more trouble than it's worth? It depends very much on your political leaning I suppose. I'm a socialist through and though, so thought of closer economic ties to America with all the deregulation and loss of worker's rights that that would entail is a little bit terrifying to me. It would almost certainly help our economy though, not that a better economy means anything to the general population under the tories, it basically means that the rich would be a hell of a lot richer while the rest of the country continues going down the shitter. So to me, no it isn't worth keeping, and it definitely isn't worth expanding on, but I can see why it would be valued amongst the wealthy.. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On January 23 2017 16:49 bardtown wrote:This generation is so pampered that their political views need no grounding in history or respect for reality. Values are just for when it's convenient and rational thought is an obstacle to be overcome in justifying preconceptions. In any case whether the EU did or did not do so is not relevent to the Uk's relataionship with these country.Can't wait for the rise of the robots and humanity's last stand tbqh. Furthermore, you have added New Zealand, Canada, Australia when discussing Singapore and Hong Kong. In the first place I don't see how the living condition of these countries which are at a similar level of other countries in the EU has any relevance to the discussion whether or not they will give favourable trade deals. You claim that the vote for leaving the EU is mostly to curtail immigration, yet you have no problem with granting free movement to New Zealand, Canada, Australia, Singapore and Hong Kong? As before, you have proved you will be inconsistent and essentially have no real alignment to anything escept to support Brexit. In any case, we can agree that these countries cannot improve over, or replace the EU single market. In any case Singapore rose to it modern state after it became independent and in any case Hong Kong is under Chinese rule and appears to be run by Chinese policy irregardless of what people from Hong Kong want. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
You claim that the vote for leaving the EU is mostly to curtail immigration This is the exact opposite of what I claim. The primary reason for leaving the EU both for me and voters in general (according to the polling I have posted in this thread half a dozen times already) was to restore sovereignty. Furthermore, the majority of Britons and I have no qualms with skilled immigration. If the EU consisted only of economies of similar wealth/prosperity then there would be no concern about mass unskilled immigration. Canada, New Zealand and Australia all perform better on the HDI than the UK does. That is to say nothing of the actual reason why I support this, which is our historical ties. This is the second time recently in which you have said that the EU mocked and erode British parliament and institutions. You need to back up your claims. I did not say that the EU mocked the British parliament. I said the EU parliament was a mockery. It is the inverse of a real parliament, whereby the elected members create/repeal legislation and the unelected chamber scrutinises it. In the EU, the unelected commission are the only ones with the power to create/repeal legislation. The EU 'parliament' is less powerful than the UK House of Lords. Putting this façade above the British parliament is therefore very blatantly an erosion of the powers/principles of said parliament. Furthermore, you have added New Zealand, Canada, Australia when discussing Singapore and Hong Kong. ? Read again. CANZUK countries have been working together constantly for centuries while Europeans ripped each others throats out in an ever-changing jumble of dictators, alliances and pseudo-friendships. Do you think their success is coincidental, by the way? I suppose you think Hong Kong and Singapore are coincidentally exceptional, too? I don't really know why I need to explain this to you. You are from the UK according to your location tag, but apparently do not recognise that the CANZUK countries already have extremely close ties. One of the questions asked of the British survey respondents was “which of the following countries, if any, do you feel especially favourable towards?” It wasn’t close. 48 per cent said they felt especially favourable towards Australia, 47 per cent towards New Zealand and 44 per cent towards Canada. The next most favourably regarded country, the US, was way behind on 31 per cent. In Europe, even the most well-regarded states, the Netherlands and Sweden, trailed badly on 24 and 23 per cent. https://www.chathamhouse.org/publications/papers/view/109392 As for trade deals: Australian treasurer visiting UK to discuss trade deal next week http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/scott-morrisons-trade-deal-plan-for-brexit/news-story/8341d7f6722a32ab404ff8039ff4fad3 "Tony Abbott calls for 'absolutely free' trade between Australia and UK Former PM says Brexit will allow the UK to do its own deals and ‘economically advanced Commonwealth countries are the obvious place to start’" https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jan/10/tony-abbott-calls-for-absolutely-free-trade-between-australia-and-uk New Zealand PM and TM announce trade deal. Note the caption under the first picture, by the way. "The UK is already one of New Zealand's largest trade partners". Almost like geography is not very significant, after all. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38608716 "‘We are a step ahead’: Trump, Canada vie for U.K. trade deals" http://www.bnn.ca/we-are-a-step-ahead-trump-canada-vie-for-u-k-trade-deals-1.651175 | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9843 Posts
In fact, I wouldn't say there was one factor that overrode any other factor. To me, from my experience of talking to people about it anyway, it seemed like a mix of sovereignty, a general mistrust of unelected governments, good ol' fashioned English casual racism, complete lack of knowledge, and a sort of confused lashing out against the idiots that were claiming it would be the end of all humanity if we left. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
How is being a EU member getting into the way of intensifying relationships with the Anglosphere? | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
Yes, but you're legitimately a condescending bigot who thinks he knows the minds of people better than they do themselves. ![[image loading]](http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Leave-vs-Remain-podium-rankings.jpg) Also, daily reminder that wanting controls over immigration is not racist. Daily reminder that people outside the EU (majority non white) think Brexit made the UK more attractive. Daily reminder that this is one of the least racist countries in the world by any measure. And given that we've been talking about CANZUK immigration I might also remind you that those countries have a greater proportion of non-whites than EU countries do, and yet people are in favour of free movement between them. On January 24 2017 07:24 Nyxisto wrote: bardtown, I still don't understand what any of this has to do with the EU. The EU has been pretty much in the process of negotiating free trade agreements with all of these regions. How is being a EU member getting into the way of intensifying relationships with the Anglosphere? You do realise it would be impossible for us to negotiate free movement/free trade with them while in the EU? And EU free trade deals with them would be far more restrictive than bilateral deals will be. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9843 Posts
On January 24 2017 07:26 bardtown wrote: @Jock Yes, but you're legitimately a condescending bigot who thinks he knows the minds of people better than they do themselves. 1: That is needlessly aggressive, cut it out. 2: Sounds like you're claiming to know my mind better than I do myself  Red my post again. FROM MY EXPERIENCE OF TALKING TO PEOPLE. I'm wondering if you can understand the meaning of those words. I got my impressions about why people voted from asking leave voters why they voted to leave. There is nothing bigoted about that. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On January 24 2017 07:30 Jockmcplop wrote: 1: That is needlessly aggressive, cut it out. 2: Sounds like you're claiming to know my mind better than I do myself Red my post again. FROM MY EXPERIENCE OF TALKING TO PEOPLE. I'm wondering if you can understand the meaning of those words. I got my impressions about why people voted from asking leave voters why they voted to leave. There is nothing bigoted about that. Yes, I understand it. You're saying the polling is wrong because of your anecdotal 'evidence'. I mean, I'm sure those people came up to you and said 'I'm voting to leave because I'm a good ol' fashioned racist!' and that wasn't you intentionally misinterpreting them having concerns about immigration. | ||
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