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On January 18 2017 04:16 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 04:11 bardtown wrote:On January 18 2017 03:47 LegalLord wrote:
What exactly is the "new vision" of the UK? I see mostly a mad rush to leave a system they don't like, but no idea as to what might replace it, in a country that simply doesn't have as much to offer as it once did. Can you qualify this? Britain is no longer an empire spanning the world, it's no longer the center of industry in the world, and it no longer is the preeminent military force in the world. Not by a longshot, in fact.
Ah. But that's going back some way. Britain was lost in the 60s/70s, and has now found its feet again, I would say.
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Not a Brit. I'm wondering if any of you believe PM May is negotiating the worst possible leave deal in order to get the country to renege entirely on Brexit?
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On January 18 2017 05:25 LightSpectra wrote:
Not a Brit. I'm wondering if any of you believe PM May is negotiating the worst possible leave deal in order to get the country to renege entirely on Brexit?
No she has faith in your president giving her some special treatment and turning the country into a tax haven.
It was lost in the 60s and 70s and then managed to join the biggest economic union and managed to turn things around... What union is it planning to join this time?
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On January 18 2017 05:25 LightSpectra wrote:
Not a Brit. I'm wondering if any of you believe PM May is negotiating the worst possible leave deal in order to get the country to renege entirely on Brexit?
No,I think she still has a vendetta against the EU after the ECHR humiliated her when she was Home Secretary. Also, what MyTHicaL said.
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Either Theresa May is bluffing for negotiation or she is just stupid to leave the single market. You think Trump will give you a better deal than the EU? Good luck with that!
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On January 18 2017 07:43 Shield wrote:
Either Theresa May is bluffing for negotiation or she is just stupid to leave the single market. You think Trump will give you a better deal than the EU? Good luck with that!
Or she recognises that a soft-brexit would have 0 upside and all the downside since they would have to keep the freedom of movement leaving a hard-brexit as the only realistic option that is justifiable to voters.
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On January 18 2017 07:45 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:43 Shield wrote:
Either Theresa May is bluffing for negotiation or she is just stupid to leave the single market. You think Trump will give you a better deal than the EU? Good luck with that! Or she recognises that a soft-brexit would have 0 upside and all the downside since they would have to keep the freedom of movement leaving a hard-brexit as the only realistic option that is justifiable to voters.
That's not true. The single market means better economy. Also, rights of workers are guaranteed. It's very good for employers and employees. You also get visa-free holiday.
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With the kind of EU that we have, I see only two options. Hard Brexit, or bitch out of the entire deal. At this point I think hard Brexit is the more likely reality.
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On January 18 2017 07:47 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:45 Gorsameth wrote:On January 18 2017 07:43 Shield wrote:
Either Theresa May is bluffing for negotiation or she is just stupid to leave the single market. You think Trump will give you a better deal than the EU? Good luck with that! Or she recognises that a soft-brexit would have 0 upside and all the downside since they would have to keep the freedom of movement leaving a hard-brexit as the only realistic option that is justifiable to voters. That's not true. The single market means better economy. Also, rights of workers are guaranteed. It's very good for employers and employees. You also get visa-free holiday.
Leaving the single market buys you enough good will with the morons of the country that taking away their rights won't matter.
Then you attract large companies with your lack of financial regulation and tax laws.
Fuck the people, as long as you make some effort to reduce immigration they will be happy no matter what you take away from them.
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On January 18 2017 07:47 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:45 Gorsameth wrote:On January 18 2017 07:43 Shield wrote:
Either Theresa May is bluffing for negotiation or she is just stupid to leave the single market. You think Trump will give you a better deal than the EU? Good luck with that! Or she recognises that a soft-brexit would have 0 upside and all the downside since they would have to keep the freedom of movement leaving a hard-brexit as the only realistic option that is justifiable to voters. That's not true. The single market means better economy. Also, rights of workers are guaranteed. It's very good for employers and employees. You also get visa-free holiday.
Single market access will mean your getting all the downsides of EU membership without actually getting a vote on the matter.
That is what I mean with no upside and all downside. Compared to the present day situation.
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On January 18 2017 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:47 Shield wrote:On January 18 2017 07:45 Gorsameth wrote:On January 18 2017 07:43 Shield wrote:
Either Theresa May is bluffing for negotiation or she is just stupid to leave the single market. You think Trump will give you a better deal than the EU? Good luck with that! Or she recognises that a soft-brexit would have 0 upside and all the downside since they would have to keep the freedom of movement leaving a hard-brexit as the only realistic option that is justifiable to voters. That's not true. The single market means better economy. Also, rights of workers are guaranteed. It's very good for employers and employees. You also get visa-free holiday. Single market access will mean your getting all the downsides of EU membership without actually getting a vote on the matter. That is what I mean with no upside and all downside. Compared to the present day situation.
Well, being in the single market is still better than hard Brexit. I've already mentioned why it's better. Of course, as you are saying, full membership makes more sense, but it's the UK's fault in this case. 350 million pounds in the NHS every week. Keep 'em coming!
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On January 18 2017 08:00 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On January 18 2017 07:47 Shield wrote:On January 18 2017 07:45 Gorsameth wrote:On January 18 2017 07:43 Shield wrote:
Either Theresa May is bluffing for negotiation or she is just stupid to leave the single market. You think Trump will give you a better deal than the EU? Good luck with that! Or she recognises that a soft-brexit would have 0 upside and all the downside since they would have to keep the freedom of movement leaving a hard-brexit as the only realistic option that is justifiable to voters. That's not true. The single market means better economy. Also, rights of workers are guaranteed. It's very good for employers and employees. You also get visa-free holiday. Single market access will mean your getting all the downsides of EU membership without actually getting a vote on the matter. That is what I mean with no upside and all downside. Compared to the present day situation. Well, being in the single market is still better than hard Brexit. I've already mentioned why it's better. Of course, as you are saying, full membership makes more sense, but it's the UK's fault in this case. 350 million pounds in the NHS every week. Keep 'em coming!
Yes I believe staying in the EU would be vastly superior to leaving but the votes have been cast and Theresa May seems set on carrying it through (and I don't blame her for following the voters will).
I'm just stating a reasoning of why one might chose a hard exit over a soft one.
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On January 18 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 08:00 Shield wrote:On January 18 2017 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On January 18 2017 07:47 Shield wrote:On January 18 2017 07:45 Gorsameth wrote:On January 18 2017 07:43 Shield wrote:
Either Theresa May is bluffing for negotiation or she is just stupid to leave the single market. You think Trump will give you a better deal than the EU? Good luck with that! Or she recognises that a soft-brexit would have 0 upside and all the downside since they would have to keep the freedom of movement leaving a hard-brexit as the only realistic option that is justifiable to voters. That's not true. The single market means better economy. Also, rights of workers are guaranteed. It's very good for employers and employees. You also get visa-free holiday. Single market access will mean your getting all the downsides of EU membership without actually getting a vote on the matter. That is what I mean with no upside and all downside. Compared to the present day situation. Well, being in the single market is still better than hard Brexit. I've already mentioned why it's better. Of course, as you are saying, full membership makes more sense, but it's the UK's fault in this case. 350 million pounds in the NHS every week. Keep 'em coming! Yes I believe staying in the EU would be vastly superior to leaving but the votes have been cast and Theresa May seems set on carrying it through (and I don't blame her for following the voters will). I'm just stating a reasoning of why one might chose a hard exit over a soft one.
Sure, but what about those who voted to remain? Clearly, difference between 52% and 48% isn't much. Clearly, hard Brexit would have made more sense if 52% was 60%+. So why ignore 48%?  It's more of a question to politicians in the UK than to you.
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On January 18 2017 08:18 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On January 18 2017 08:00 Shield wrote:On January 18 2017 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On January 18 2017 07:47 Shield wrote:On January 18 2017 07:45 Gorsameth wrote:On January 18 2017 07:43 Shield wrote:
Either Theresa May is bluffing for negotiation or she is just stupid to leave the single market. You think Trump will give you a better deal than the EU? Good luck with that! Or she recognises that a soft-brexit would have 0 upside and all the downside since they would have to keep the freedom of movement leaving a hard-brexit as the only realistic option that is justifiable to voters. That's not true. The single market means better economy. Also, rights of workers are guaranteed. It's very good for employers and employees. You also get visa-free holiday. Single market access will mean your getting all the downsides of EU membership without actually getting a vote on the matter. That is what I mean with no upside and all downside. Compared to the present day situation. Well, being in the single market is still better than hard Brexit. I've already mentioned why it's better. Of course, as you are saying, full membership makes more sense, but it's the UK's fault in this case. 350 million pounds in the NHS every week. Keep 'em coming! Yes I believe staying in the EU would be vastly superior to leaving but the votes have been cast and Theresa May seems set on carrying it through (and I don't blame her for following the voters will). I'm just stating a reasoning of why one might chose a hard exit over a soft one. Sure, but what about those who voted to remain? Clearly, difference between 52% and 48% isn't much. Clearly, hard Brexit would have made more sense if 52% was 60%+. So why ignore 48%? It's more of a question to politicians in the UK than to you.
Most certainly. Something as big as leaving the EU should never have been a simple majority vote. 2/3 majority would make much more sense.
The problem is that once the referendum is issued and your committing to following the majority result it's hard to back out when the win is so small without severe voter backlash.
And in the end getting (re)elected is what matters to a politician.
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On January 17 2017 22:51 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 22:45 Madkipz wrote:On January 17 2017 04:52 Shield wrote:On January 16 2017 20:40 MyTHicaL wrote:
You've been in this thread long enough to know I am the only dissenting voice in an echo chamber. You also know that I have argued extensively against all the arguments for remaining.
There is a very obvious reason for that. How does the UK have, objectively, a serious advantage? What advantage do they have? Use EU residents as bargaining chips? Congratulations on actually uniting the EU to record approval levels across the entire continent. Here we are not so stupid to think that any one country can really stand up to the BRICs, US, etc. But you keep on practicing your speeches in the mirror and making sure you spend as much time speaking to pensioners. I'm sure it means something in the long run. But it's fine I want you to have a hard brexit. Simply because of the reprecussions for NI, and Scotland. Let Little England be just that; Little and isolated. I'm an immigrant in the UK, but I'd rather the EU don't do whatever those "have your cake and eat it" guys want. Freedom of movement or get the fuck out. It sucks for the UK, but these are the rules. If the UK want different rules, they should have stayed to change rules, then quit. You are likely to change system when you're at a higher position. Edit: Also, it's hilarious that Trump and random people predict that the EU will disband. It's more likely that Scotland will have another independence referendum than EU disbanding any time soon. By the way, I quoted you to support your post. The Scots as as likely to get independence as California is from leaving the USA. The queen wouldn't stand for it, and the british army swears their fealty to her. They had a referendum in 2014 which Cameron described as binding. Are you suggesting that the queen would've sent the army into Scotland if the result had been Yes? That's amusing.
He also described it as "Once in a Generation"
Scotland can hold all the Independence Referendums they want, they have to ratified by Westminster to be binding and that ain't happening any time soon.
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On January 18 2017 10:49 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 22:51 Laurens wrote:On January 17 2017 22:45 Madkipz wrote:On January 17 2017 04:52 Shield wrote:On January 16 2017 20:40 MyTHicaL wrote:
You've been in this thread long enough to know I am the only dissenting voice in an echo chamber. You also know that I have argued extensively against all the arguments for remaining.
There is a very obvious reason for that. How does the UK have, objectively, a serious advantage? What advantage do they have? Use EU residents as bargaining chips? Congratulations on actually uniting the EU to record approval levels across the entire continent. Here we are not so stupid to think that any one country can really stand up to the BRICs, US, etc. But you keep on practicing your speeches in the mirror and making sure you spend as much time speaking to pensioners. I'm sure it means something in the long run. But it's fine I want you to have a hard brexit. Simply because of the reprecussions for NI, and Scotland. Let Little England be just that; Little and isolated. I'm an immigrant in the UK, but I'd rather the EU don't do whatever those "have your cake and eat it" guys want. Freedom of movement or get the fuck out. It sucks for the UK, but these are the rules. If the UK want different rules, they should have stayed to change rules, then quit. You are likely to change system when you're at a higher position. Edit: Also, it's hilarious that Trump and random people predict that the EU will disband. It's more likely that Scotland will have another independence referendum than EU disbanding any time soon. By the way, I quoted you to support your post. The Scots as as likely to get independence as California is from leaving the USA. The queen wouldn't stand for it, and the british army swears their fealty to her. They had a referendum in 2014 which Cameron described as binding. Are you suggesting that the queen would've sent the army into Scotland if the result had been Yes? That's amusing. He also described it as "Once in a Generation" Scotland can hold all the Independence Referendums they want, they have to ratified by Westminster to be binding and that ain't happening any time soon.
As pointed out in the previous pages, one of the reasons to vote "no" was fear of ending up outside the EU and Spain/others using their veto to prevent them getting back in.
With what happened since then, a new referendum seems justified. It'd also be ironic for Westminster to ignore Scotland's referendum results after going through with Brexit lmao. "The people have spoken" etc.
Of course as long as polls show that "no" continues to have more support there's zero reason to hold a new referendum.
Personally I give it less than 10 years before the second referendum happens and Scotland becomes independent. When/if short-term negative effects of Brexit start showing, the polls will change and the SNP leaders will ramp up the pressure.
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On January 18 2017 07:45 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2017 07:43 Shield wrote:
Either Theresa May is bluffing for negotiation or she is just stupid to leave the single market. You think Trump will give you a better deal than the EU? Good luck with that! Or she recognises that a soft-brexit would have 0 upside and all the downside since they would have to keep the freedom of movement leaving a hard-brexit as the only realistic option that is justifiable to voters.
*To the majority of Leave voters.
I don't think the 48% think that hard-brexit is the only realistic option, nor probably do a minority of leave voters. Which when added together are probably an actual majority of voters.
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+ Show Spoiler +
Can you stop with this pitiful meme of needing a 2/3 majority in a plebiscite, just because it didn't go your way? And can you recognise that when Leave voters listed sovereignty, immigration and lack of control over the EU's direction as their top 3 reasons for leaving, staying in the single market was never, ever a feasible option? The press (both in the UK and on the continent) have been lying to you. It was never going to happen, and anyone with a shred of perspective could have told you that months ago. Of course, top EU officials (and low quality posters in this thread) have been under the impression that the UK was going to stay and it was all a bluff, so the delusion and denial go pretty deep.
The jobless rate was steady at an 11-year low of 4.8%, in line with forecasts, the Office for National Statistics said.
The employment rate was steady at a record 74.5%, while wage growth picked up pace.
Average weekly earnings excluding bonuses increased by 2.7% compared with a year earlier.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38661443?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
Unemployment falls. Wage growth remains far above inflation. Growth for 2017 also revised up this week.
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It helps when you class people in part time jobs of things like 8-20 hours a week and those on 0 hour contracts as being employed- I'd love to see the full time employment statistics especially those above minimum wage.
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Imagine my shock when MyTHicaL doesn't understand the implications of rising average earnings. If everyone was working part time or 0 hours contracts they would be tumbling. It's a complete red herring because Labour have had nothing meaningful to criticise.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2aSRzeXcAYhMsq.jpg:large)
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![[image loading]](http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Leave-vs-Remain-podium-rankings.jpg)
