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On June 26 2013 19:09 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 18:57 DertoQq wrote:On June 26 2013 18:22 aksfjh wrote:On June 26 2013 18:19 AnomalySC2 wrote:On June 26 2013 18:10 rhs408 wrote:On June 26 2013 17:49 AnomalySC2 wrote:On June 26 2013 16:53 czylu wrote:On June 26 2013 15:32 sluggaslamoo wrote:From a purely logical standpoint, if the government had some campaign to initiate a dictatorship through control of the army and someone who was in on it became a whistle-blower and stopped the movement, do you believe he should be thrown in jail? Also would you still label the person a @#$%ing spy, or would he be a hero? Note that for both examples it is the exact same situation. Someone is leaking "government secrets" to the public, they should be treated the same. The content of the confidential information is not important. If you believe that the guy in the example above should not be put in jail, then Snowden should also not be put in jail. They have done the exact same thing, again the content of the leak should not be important, the result should be binary. Why is the content not important? We have a right to free speech without fear of persecution. It is binary, if we have rules governing free speech, then it is not free speech. What is happening in the US right now means that free speech no longer exists, we have to live in fear that if we say something the government doesn't like then we get indicted. Free speech means free speech. "free speech, except up to a certain level", that is not free speech. It would be no different from China, you can say whatever you want, just don't say anything bad about the government. What's the difference? Over the years the borders of our so called "free-speech" have been lowered and lowered in the West. Either we indict people for leaking government secrets, or we don't. One of which, I believe, will lead to a slippery slope. Our older generations died so you guys wouldn't get punished for thought crimes, and now you want to just throw that away. The trend is also not looking great, every year the government expands the morally grey area more and more. This effectively means that governments can do whatever they want and jail anyone for "leaking government secrets". And because some people blindly follow "the law" they let them get away with it. What's stopping the government from inventing new laws that keep pushing the boundaries of speech. People will just say "Oh but he broke the law", so its ok. In 1984, Winston also broke the law, so he must be the bad guy, it was wrong of him to question the regime at all, also all the people punished for thought crimes, they also broke the law, they deserve to be punished... Is that really what we want? Free speech needs to be practical and reasonable first and foremost. You can't yell fire in packed movie theater, people could die in the resulting panic. You can't say your company has record breaking profits, when it's bankrupt. Similarly, you can't reveal government classified documents that puts the nation's security at risk. Snowden did not reveal that america had been spying on electronic communications. We KNEW that since 2007, and was authorized by the PATRIOT act in 2001. What Snowden did was he revealed HOW and WHAT the NSA actually spied on, which severely damages the purpose of the NSA(which is protect the homeland). If the terrorists know what forms of communication are being tracked, they will inevitably NOT use those forms of communication. Ironically, b/c snowden has revealed these techniques to the general public(and by extension the terrorists), the program will inevitably need to expand to include communications that are not currently monitored. And the NSA will have the legal and constitutional right to do so. It's not about terrorism anymore, they're doing nation wide surveillance. Everything from phone calls to literally anything you do online. Unless they suspect all US citizens are terrorists.....which at this point I guess that's not too far fetched. It increasingly feels like the govt/major corporations view all citizens and consumers as enemies and vice versa. czylu is absolutely right. And I don't know why people care so much about the government having access to phone records. They aren't listening in on phone calls (unless you are being investigated as a terrorist?), it's just freaking phone records. But regardless, Snowden is nothing more than a traitor and I hope he rots in jail along with Bradley Manning. They ARE listening in on phone calls. And they have the ability to see anything you're doing while connected to the internet, as if you're streaming directly to their data center. They also have a giant laser shooting robot that is preparing to battle the rebels on the moon base that have created their own laser shooting skyscraper sized robot! I can make up things as well. That was pretty fun! Except it is pretty much a fact that NSA has a direct access to google, microsoft, facebook etc.. databases at this point. Not even the US government has tried to deny that. Google, Apple, Facebook, et al. have tried to deny that.
They are also legally bound by the NSA to deny that. Are you really that naive ?
something interesting to read : http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
What's funny is that the American government with all their insane military funding couldn't find a tech support guy and pay him enough money to keep him quiet. If I was in charge I would just pay him ungodly amounts of money and make sure that if he leaked any info he would lose all that money, so that he would not leak any information because the advantages wouldn't outweigh the cons. I would also have a very strict screening process for employing people at that level of security.
US military spending check it - ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/204c21cc52b7386a825bd07dc6ee7577.png)
Seriously if you think your government isn't already accessing every minute detail of your internet activity then you are living in rainbows and unicorns land. The fact that the American government is letting shit like this happen again and again is extremely unprofessional. Now he has too much media coverage so they have to let it die down before killing him, that is if they think doing so has any value any more. Russian KGB, British SS and Chinese MSS must be laughing their asses off calling them a bunch of fucking noobs at this game.
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Doesn't espionage have to do with being or using spies? If he was a spy who was he working for and to what end? To release information about the US Govt spying on its own people? lol.
Could be classed as sabotage I guess by informing the public, but whistle blower protection laws should still take precedence.
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On June 26 2013 19:16 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 18:28 ZenithM wrote:On June 26 2013 18:07 TheToaster wrote:
There's no doubt he's guilty of espionage. However, what he did can arguably be considered a noble cause despite committing a "crime against the US". That would be my take on it as well. Technically, you don't release national secrets like that. It may be warranted to do so, but if you do you have to be ready to face the consequences. If Snowden was manly enough he would stop fleeing and surrender. Then he would be a badass an hero in my book. ??? You can't be serious. Hypothetically - if some North Korean warns the world about the nuclear bomb they're about to drop, in your eyes he should face North Korean court? [...]
Well, what I think doesn't matter, the hypothetical guy would probably face North Korean justice. The last part of my message was indeed not really serious (hints: "manly", "fleeing", "badass", "an hero"). Here in France it would have been quite funny if all French Resistants suddenly decided to be "manly" and surrender. Funny indeed.
Seriously though, I think Snowden can be called both traitor and hero. Traitor to the US government, hero to the US people, maybe? It's actually quite frightening that some random guy can just leak US confidential documents like that.
Besides I'm not entirely convinced that this PRISM thing is 100% bad anyway.
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On June 26 2013 18:28 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 18:07 TheToaster wrote:
There's no doubt he's guilty of espionage. However, what he did can arguably be considered a noble cause despite committing a "crime against the US". That would be my take on it as well. Technically, you don't release national secrets like that. It may be warranted to do so, but if you do you have to be ready to face the consequences. If Snowden was manly enough he would stop fleeing and surrender. Then he would be a badass an hero in my book.
If he goes back to America they'll detain him until everyone forgets and then they'll execute him. People are obviously outraged by the information he's released but they'll forget over time so I doubt enough pressure could ever be put on the US government to release him. Look at Bradley Manning he still hasn't been released and his situation is similar although I guess what he did would be considered worse by the US government.
Also their efforts to catch him are a publicity disaster so far. China have basically spat in the USA's face by letting him leave their country after being told not to, and I doubt Russia will give him up either. And it's not like they can really portray him as a traiter either, he might technically be one but he certainly hasn't betrayed general population.
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On June 26 2013 19:05 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 17:15 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 26 2013 16:53 czylu wrote:On June 26 2013 15:32 sluggaslamoo wrote:From a purely logical standpoint, if the government had some campaign to initiate a dictatorship through control of the army and someone who was in on it became a whistle-blower and stopped the movement, do you believe he should be thrown in jail? Also would you still label the person a @#$%ing spy, or would he be a hero? Note that for both examples it is the exact same situation. Someone is leaking "government secrets" to the public, they should be treated the same. The content of the confidential information is not important. If you believe that the guy in the example above should not be put in jail, then Snowden should also not be put in jail. They have done the exact same thing, again the content of the leak should not be important, the result should be binary. Why is the content not important? We have a right to free speech without fear of persecution. It is binary, if we have rules governing free speech, then it is not free speech. What is happening in the US right now means that free speech no longer exists, we have to live in fear that if we say something the government doesn't like then we get indicted. Free speech means free speech. "free speech, except up to a certain level", that is not free speech. It would be no different from China, you can say whatever you want, just don't say anything bad about the government. What's the difference? Over the years the borders of our so called "free-speech" have been lowered and lowered in the West. Either we indict people for leaking government secrets, or we don't. One of which, I believe, will lead to a slippery slope. Our older generations died so you guys wouldn't get punished for thought crimes, and now you want to just throw that away. The trend is also not looking great, every year the government expands the morally grey area more and more. This effectively means that governments can do whatever they want and jail anyone for "leaking government secrets". And because some people blindly follow "the law" they let them get away with it. What's stopping the government from inventing new laws that keep pushing the boundaries of speech. People will just say "Oh but he broke the law", so its ok. In 1984, Winston also broke the law, so he must be the bad guy, it was wrong of him to question the regime at all, also all the people punished for thought crimes, they also broke the law, they deserve to be punished... Is that really what we want? Free speech needs to be practical and reasonable first and foremost. You can't yell fire in packed movie theater, people could die in the resulting panic. You can't say your company has record breaking profits, when it's bankrupt. Similarly, you can't reveal government classified documents that puts the nation's security at risk. Snowden did not reveal that america had been spying on electronic communications. We KNEW that since 2007, and was authorized by the PATRIOT act in 2001. What Snowden did was he revealed HOW and WHAT the NSA actually spied on, which severely damages the purpose of the NSA(which is protect the homeland). If the terrorists know what forms of communication are being tracked, they will inevitably NOT use those forms of communication. Ironically, b/c snowden has revealed these techniques to the general public(and by extension the terrorists), the program will inevitably need to expand to include communications that are not currently monitored. And the NSA will have the legal and constitutional right to do so. Then answer, is the example person a hero or a spy, what do you think should happen to him? The exact same can be applied to what you just wrote. The example person is "putting the nations security at risk" by leaking classified information. Its a paradox, you are actually not basing your beliefs on logic, but emotional values. To me the only real threat that exists is the ability for the US to indict people for thought-crime through classified information that does not rightfully belong to the US government. The next thing is what the fuck are all these companies doing? I don't give a shit if this is about fighting terrorism, the way the government is going about "fighting terrorism" is not the way it should be done. The US signed the PATRIOT act, this act does not extend to every other country, what is this Prism thing doing searching through my emails? If Terrorism is a threat to your country, well that's your problem, I don't need your security so you can capture "threats to national security" like Julian Assange. How is that a paradox? As I said before, he is most likely a spy. Of all the places to go, you DON'T go to Hong Kong(or more specifically China) and expect protection from the US(they have an extradition agreement). He had to have had something to bargain with, and that was leaking classified documents showing the US had spied on Chinese communications. Which ended up being a moot point, b/c the Chinese already knew that(they've been making claims for years, almost as much as the US has), which is why they sent him packing to Russia(which does not have an extradition agreement). This is the definition of espionage, giving a foreign entity classified government documents. And stop treating Snowden like a hero or a whistleblower. He is NOT a whistleblower. It has been well documented in the public and in American Law that this kind of surveillance has been going on for YEARS. What Snowden leaked was the programs methods and capabilities, which is basically directly aiding terrorists in teaching them how to avoid identification. Maybe you don't give a shit about terrorism, but I assure you most people in the world(russian, EU, UAE, India, Pakistan, China, Saudi, Africa, Middle East, North Africa) do. And more importantly, most Americans(who are btw the PEOPLE who are affected by NSA surveillance) care about terrorism and approve of what the NSA is doing domestically. As for hacking and china and crap, as a Chinese born person, I am neither surprised nor pissed that America is hacking China. China is a growing superpower and is trying to go tit for tat w/ the US. Hacking each other is just a part of that game, and if anything, is a compliment to China's growing power. You certainly would never see that kind of espionage on Australia.
No, Prism affects all Western countries. And proof that most Americans approve of what NSA is doing? Last time I heard the approval rating was at about 30%.
Its a paradox because the only reason you think he's a bad person is because of the content of the results. If he leaked government information that directly affected your values (like if the US government was gonna drop an A-bomb on its own people), you would think he's a hero. Even though the "crime" was exactly the same.
It doesn't make any sense, if Snowden had that much invested into espionage why the hell would he leak the documents public and screw himself over instead of just telling the Chinese in secret?
A real spy wouldn't leak information to the public. The only people accusing him of being a spy is the government, and no shit Sherlock, they need to have a reason to imprison him and reduce public resistance so they don't get voted out next election.
By that logic Julian Assange must be a Ecuadorian spy then because people want him prosecuted by the espionage act and he went and hid in the Embassy of Ecuador.
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On June 26 2013 19:41 pyrogenetix wrote:What's funny is that the American government with all their insane military funding couldn't find a tech support guy and pay him enough money to keep him quiet. If I was in charge I would just pay him ungodly amounts of money and make sure that if he leaked any info he would lose all that money, so that he would not leak any information because the advantages wouldn't outweigh the cons. I would also have a very strict screening process for employing people at that level of security. US military spending check it - Seriously if you think your government isn't already accessing every minute detail of your internet activity then you are living in rainbows and unicorns land. The fact that the American government is letting shit like this happen again and again is extremely unprofessional. Now he has too much media coverage so they have to let it die down before killing him, that is if they think doing so has any value any more. Russian KGB, British SS and Chinese MSS must be laughing their asses off calling them a bunch of fucking noobs at this game.
Damn, you'd make a GREAT leader with completely happy citizens and government employees /sarcasm.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
The point that interests me is the one brought up in the first few pages, legality vs constitutionality. From what I gather from this thread, the NSA wasn't doing anything illegal, although ultimately it could be deemed so if the laws they were working from are deemed unconstitutional?
I assume this debate would be much more one-sided if what the NSA were doing was illegal already; so what *would* be the correct procedure if an NSA employee believed the NSA was being thoroughly unconstitutional? Go through official channels? I assume that would be shut down before it even started. Then what?
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It's not a huge suprise to me that the u.s goverment is spying on all of these big internet sites. Everything that you do on the internet is accesible by the goverment. But we all gotta deal with it anyway. That's the price we pay for living in the 21'st century.
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
On June 26 2013 20:34 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 19:41 pyrogenetix wrote:What's funny is that the American government with all their insane military funding couldn't find a tech support guy and pay him enough money to keep him quiet. If I was in charge I would just pay him ungodly amounts of money and make sure that if he leaked any info he would lose all that money, so that he would not leak any information because the advantages wouldn't outweigh the cons. I would also have a very strict screening process for employing people at that level of security. US military spending check it - Seriously if you think your government isn't already accessing every minute detail of your internet activity then you are living in rainbows and unicorns land. The fact that the American government is letting shit like this happen again and again is extremely unprofessional. Now he has too much media coverage so they have to let it die down before killing him, that is if they think doing so has any value any more. Russian KGB, British SS and Chinese MSS must be laughing their asses off calling them a bunch of fucking noobs at this game. Damn, you'd make a GREAT leader with completely happy citizens and government employees /sarcasm.
I know bro, thanks. Too bad they don't need me, there are already so many GREAT leaders in key positions creating a better world for happy citizens and government employees. You live in that HAPPY world.
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On June 26 2013 20:55 pyrogenetix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 20:34 AnomalySC2 wrote:On June 26 2013 19:41 pyrogenetix wrote:What's funny is that the American government with all their insane military funding couldn't find a tech support guy and pay him enough money to keep him quiet. If I was in charge I would just pay him ungodly amounts of money and make sure that if he leaked any info he would lose all that money, so that he would not leak any information because the advantages wouldn't outweigh the cons. I would also have a very strict screening process for employing people at that level of security. US military spending check it - Seriously if you think your government isn't already accessing every minute detail of your internet activity then you are living in rainbows and unicorns land. The fact that the American government is letting shit like this happen again and again is extremely unprofessional. Now he has too much media coverage so they have to let it die down before killing him, that is if they think doing so has any value any more. Russian KGB, British SS and Chinese MSS must be laughing their asses off calling them a bunch of fucking noobs at this game. Damn, you'd make a GREAT leader with completely happy citizens and government employees /sarcasm. I know bro, thanks. Too bad they don't need me, there are already so many GREAT leaders in key positions creating a better world for happy citizens and government employees. You live in that HAPPY world.
Sorry but thats not true, for me anyways.
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It's easy to hate on the government. Yeah, the US government has done a lot of sketchy things in the past. However, leaks like this really say a lot about the insecurity of the US. Of course, the US government is in the right to be angry as hell to see a lot of disloyal employees. Plus, as a superpower, US has a huge responsibility of maintaining national security because you have to stay on the top while dealing with competitors and haters.
As for Snowden, he is not guilty of epsionage yet. BUT why in the world would he bring his work laptop during his extradition? Before we argue about the constitutionality of certain actions and policies, we should consider the technical consequences of them. So far, Snowden has not done anything spectacular for the US or its people (for your information, the right to privacy is an IMPLIED right not an enumerated right in the US constitution).
EDIT: I read some people's posts, and I can see why people respect what this guy did. But still we'll have to see whether his actions will change the political course. Also, calling him a hero is a bit much in my opinion. This is not a movie, people!
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On June 26 2013 07:24 omgimonfire15 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 06:41 maybenexttime wrote:On June 26 2013 03:56 omgimonfire15 wrote:
Do you have something to hide? Yes, this thing called "privacy". So its okay that banks, hospitals, schools, internet companies, house contractors, etc know your private information and what you do but not the government? The government still technically keeps your privacy by not disclosing your personal information. When they start disclosing that, its a breach of privacy. Maybe i'm crazy buy i'm fine with the idea the government knows everything about me as long as they don't tell people. I mean, I don't think i'm doing anything wrong. What do you and I possibly have to hide that's so damaging?
Those insitutions are called "institutions of public trust" (I believe that's the right name in English) for a reason. If they use your private information in any way not absolutely necessary to provide the services you requested from them, and possibly harm you that way, they are breaking the law, as far as I know.
The US government has a long history of kidnapping and imprisoning innocent people (lots of people have been kept in Guantanamo and such with no sign of a trial - innocent until proven guilty, remember?) or even outright killing (i.e. murdering) them, as well as starting wars for dubious reasons, sponsoring terrorists, assasinating various people (including important politicians), inspiring and supporting coup d'etats, etc. What's more, the US government has a history of oppressing its citizens for various reasons. Take the FBI documents regarding Martin Luther King, for example.
"After the 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, King was singled out as a major target for COINTELPRO. Under pressure from Hoover to focus not simply on communist infiltration of the civil rights movement, but on King specifically, Sullivan wrote: "In the light of King's powerful demagogic speech. . . . We must mark him now, if we have not done so before, as the most dangerous Negro of the future in this nation from the standpoint of communism, the Negro, and national security."[17] Soon after, the FBI was systematically bugging King's home and his hotel rooms"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
You can even find documents where FBI officials are considering assasinating him, if I remember correctly. There's also a ton of racial slurs in there.
Recently, the US government has a record of breaching its citizens' privacy in numerous ways in order to mitigate the threat of terrorism it is responsible for itself (yes, terrorism is mainly a result of the American foreign policy).
In this light, trusting the US government seems very naive to me.
We have a saying in Poland: socialism bravely fights with problems unknown in other forms of government.
Seems familiar...
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It's easy to get him, just lable him as a terrorist and send him to guantanamo!
No trial, no lawyers, no judges, no interviews, no nothing.. just time for people to forget him and US spying on the intire world..
I will try and walk away from all the US internet service providers, not because i have anything to hide, but because it's wrong..
What happens when for instance, politicians use the prism to spy on their rivals? Companys having access to their rivals info's.. etc..
Too much power and information will lead to abuse.. always have and always will.. just look at USA's foreign policies today and now imagine what they can do if they know all the dirty secrets of everybody..
not even their "friends" will have any chance at a fair discussion..
USA is now the most policed state in the world.. too bad for the freedom country!
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Hypocrisy at its finest! I would love to see how 'justice' is doled out in this particular case. Personally, I hope he makes it to Ecuador safely.
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Maybe i'm crazy buy i'm fine with the idea the government knows everything about me as long as they don't tell people. I mean, I don't think i'm doing anything wrong. What do you and I possibly have to hide that's so damaging?
I went to the spanish revolution protests. I was there during the alternative demonstration of the 1st of March. I have read the wikipedia page on atomic bombs, several times. I have knowledge of physics and chemistry. I have extensively researched the fate of bin Laden, as well as the 9/11 attacks. Etc etc.
Should I be worried that the goverment knows all of this of me? Did I do anything illegal, or something that I would have to hide? The answer at the moment is NO, and the proof is that I have yet to be abducted from my bed at 4 in the morning by guys wearing black masks. But will it be ok 20 years from now? In 5 years? In the next change of government? I don't know. But it takes just one leader with enough fascist or tyrant inclinations to start using these kind of information against some of the citizens, their family or their friends. In Turkey people were already abducted by the government over Facebook and Twitter posts.
So no, it is NOT ok for the goverment to collect and store this information on me, without my consent, without even legislation of what can or can not be done with that information. It is NOT ok for Google and Microsoft and Apple to pass whatever information they have on me to the goverment in a sistematic manner, disregarding my privacy and my right to be innocent until proven guilty. This is why we have to do everything possible to stop this from going on.
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He could have sold the information, kept his job and his life, and been dirty rich. Instead, he throws that all away to try to help his countrymen. Not exactly the smartest thing to do, but it's certainly not espionage.
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On June 26 2013 20:55 pyrogenetix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 20:34 AnomalySC2 wrote:On June 26 2013 19:41 pyrogenetix wrote:What's funny is that the American government with all their insane military funding couldn't find a tech support guy and pay him enough money to keep him quiet. If I was in charge I would just pay him ungodly amounts of money and make sure that if he leaked any info he would lose all that money, so that he would not leak any information because the advantages wouldn't outweigh the cons. I would also have a very strict screening process for employing people at that level of security. US military spending check it - Seriously if you think your government isn't already accessing every minute detail of your internet activity then you are living in rainbows and unicorns land. The fact that the American government is letting shit like this happen again and again is extremely unprofessional. Now he has too much media coverage so they have to let it die down before killing him, that is if they think doing so has any value any more. Russian KGB, British SS and Chinese MSS must be laughing their asses off calling them a bunch of fucking noobs at this game. Damn, you'd make a GREAT leader with completely happy citizens and government employees /sarcasm. I know bro, thanks. Too bad they don't need me, there are already so many GREAT leaders in key positions creating a better world for happy citizens and government employees. You live in that HAPPY world.
It's always amazing to me seeing people from nations like China rag on America as if its somehow not one of the better places to live in the world.
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
On June 26 2013 22:17 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 20:55 pyrogenetix wrote:On June 26 2013 20:34 AnomalySC2 wrote:On June 26 2013 19:41 pyrogenetix wrote:What's funny is that the American government with all their insane military funding couldn't find a tech support guy and pay him enough money to keep him quiet. If I was in charge I would just pay him ungodly amounts of money and make sure that if he leaked any info he would lose all that money, so that he would not leak any information because the advantages wouldn't outweigh the cons. I would also have a very strict screening process for employing people at that level of security. US military spending check it - Seriously if you think your government isn't already accessing every minute detail of your internet activity then you are living in rainbows and unicorns land. The fact that the American government is letting shit like this happen again and again is extremely unprofessional. Now he has too much media coverage so they have to let it die down before killing him, that is if they think doing so has any value any more. Russian KGB, British SS and Chinese MSS must be laughing their asses off calling them a bunch of fucking noobs at this game. Damn, you'd make a GREAT leader with completely happy citizens and government employees /sarcasm. I know bro, thanks. Too bad they don't need me, there are already so many GREAT leaders in key positions creating a better world for happy citizens and government employees. You live in that HAPPY world. It's always amazing to me seeing people from nations like China rag on America as if its somehow not one of the better places to live in the world.
Not that I'm raggin on the US as a whole but it's the US govt I'm targeting for their epic blunders. Whether a place offers a better quality of life is pretty much up to the resident isn't it? Eye of the beholder and that shit? I would argue that the Scandinavian countries outperform the US. I would also argue that being in the middle/upper class is much better if you live in so called "shitty places" simply because of PPP.
No definitely I agree that the CN govt also has their fair share of idiots and gigantic corruption is rampant, but at least the rate at which it is improving is impressive. If you look at China 10 years ago and compare it to today, things like health care and public insurance has made great strides. Let's not forget China's population is 4 times the US, and China is still a developing country if you look at comparative figures like GDP/capita.
The main difference is the political structure of the two countries but that's another story. I was just poking fun at how something like this leaked out despite the vast amount of money being pumped into their military every year. I cannot help but think that the people sitting at key positions are extremely inadequate. If that is the case then yes the US has every reason to fear China's meteoric rise.
It's not about IF we are being fucked by the govt, it's about do we KNOW we are being fucked by our govt.
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EPT
