EPTIt's not possible as long as he is in Russia and he isn't going to do it because of all the media attention. But US citizens have been assassinated, along with children that happened to be at the same place at the wrong time, for less (Al Awlaki).
Is Snowden guilty of espionage? - Page 16
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Komei
50 Posts
It's not possible as long as he is in Russia and he isn't going to do it because of all the media attention. But US citizens have been assassinated, along with children that happened to be at the same place at the wrong time, for less (Al Awlaki). | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On June 26 2013 23:55 Komei wrote: Actually, Obama has the legal mandate to bomb the terminal Snowden is in. Everyone dying alongside him are just collateral damage like thousands that died as collateral damage in drone strikes before them. No questions asked. It's not possible as long as he is in Russia and he isn't going to do it because of all the media attention. But US citizens have been assassinated, along with children that happened to be at the same place at the wrong time, for less (Al Awlaki). I dont think Obama wants an all out war with the biggest nuclear power after the US. | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On June 26 2013 21:00 hansonslee wrote: It's easy to hate on the government. Yeah, the US government has done a lot of sketchy things in the past. However, leaks like this really say a lot about the insecurity of the US. Of course, the US government is in the right to be angry as hell to see a lot of disloyal employees. Plus, as a superpower, US has a huge responsibility of maintaining national security because you have to stay on the top while dealing with competitors and haters. As for Snowden, he is not guilty of epsionage yet. BUT why in the world would he bring his work laptop during his extradition? Before we argue about the constitutionality of certain actions and policies, we should consider the technical consequences of them. So far, Snowden has not done anything spectacular for the US or its people (for your information, the right to privacy is an IMPLIED right not an enumerated right in the US constitution). EDIT: I read some people's posts, and I can see why people respect what this guy did. But still we'll have to see whether his actions will change the political course. Also, calling him a hero is a bit much in my opinion. This is not a movie, people! No, movies usually end with biased endings pre selected by a bunch of corporate hats, while in reality things are much more interesting. Take our example and take it to the streets, the goverment should not be persecuting reporters, and in the end thats what guys like julian assange and snowden are, people whistleblowing what the evil corporate big brother govt is doing. How can anyone support the actions of the most tyrannical democracy in the world is beyond me. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 27 2013 01:20 D10 wrote: No, movies usually end with biased endings pre selected by a bunch of corporate hats, while in reality things are much more interesting. Take our example and take it to the streets, the goverment should not be persecuting reporters, and in the end thats what guys like julian assange and snowden are, people whistleblowing what the evil corporate big brother govt is doing. How can anyone support the actions of the most tyrannical democracy in the world is beyond me. Real life usually results in biased endings decided by a few corporate hats. Just look at the election cycle. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
some of the juicier bits. The system of undersea fiber optic cables carries 99 percent of international telecommunications. The NSA is not tapping the fiber network at the two-dozen cable landing stations in the US where overseas traffic enters the US. Instead, the agency has installed sophisticated “optical splitters” or data interceptors at major commercial exchange and switching hubs well within the shoreline. It is gathering vast amounts of information. The explosive development of mobile and wireless devices and their ubiquity in the lives of the vast majority of the world’s population make it possible for sinister operations within the state to gather details about each individual’s everyday activities for repressive purposes. | ||
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Komei
50 Posts
On June 27 2013 01:17 D10 wrote: I dont think Obama wants an all out war with the biggest nuclear power after the US. It's about Obama's kill list, not about relations with Russia. | ||
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peawok
United States71 Posts
On June 26 2013 03:56 omgimonfire15 wrote: Honest question: Why does this matter so much? I can see how everyone is scared its going to turn into 1984 but do you honestly think that's gonna happen with today's society and the level of globalized connectedness? Also, why are people so worried about what the government knows? Do you have something to hide? I honestly don't care that a random guy in the government knows what I do online, even if it is inappropriate. I don't care that they know who I call and what I text people. The only way I would have a problem with it is if they started making all the records public and started persecuting based on the information unequally (like if they charge only some people for pirating and let others go for instance). Also, why are so many people surprised by this? Yeah we see it in movies and videogames but did you really think it was that far from the truth that there are people that are capable of hacking into every aspect of your life and retrieving your data? Also, do you really think America's the only one that's doing this? I would not be surprised if every industrialized country had some sort of espionage like this. Okay then. May I have your personal medical history, browsing history, employment history...? | ||
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czylu
477 Posts
On June 26 2013 20:24 sluggaslamoo wrote: No, Prism affects all Western countries. And proof that most Americans approve of what NSA is doing? Last time I heard the approval rating was at about 30%. Its a paradox because the only reason you think he's a bad person is because of the content of the results. If he leaked government information that directly affected your values (like if the US government was gonna drop an A-bomb on its own people), you would think he's a hero. Even though the "crime" was exactly the same. It doesn't make any sense, if Snowden had that much invested into espionage why the hell would he leak the documents public and screw himself over instead of just telling the Chinese in secret? A real spy wouldn't leak information to the public. The only people accusing him of being a spy is the government, and no shit Sherlock, they need to have a reason to imprison him and reduce public resistance so they don't get voted out next election. By that logic Julian Assange must be a Ecuadorian spy then because people want him prosecuted by the espionage act and he went and hid in the Embassy of Ecuador. Prism only affects the domestic US. Any connection to any other country is based on cooperation b/w their goverment to access the NSA database for their OWN spying purposes. Prism is a program used to spy DOMESTICALLY, using the data of DOMESTIC companies(not the NSA's problem if people from other countries use american products). http://www.ibtimes.com/majority-americans-support-nsa-surveillance-programs-poll-1300213# http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/n-s-a-monitoring-and-partisan-hypocrisy/ America loves its rights, but only when their party isn't the majority -.- Lastly, you can't take everything Snowden has said @ face value, you always have to consider the diplomacy and politics behind it. I guarantee you that Snowden has not revealed all the information he had, and probably would have never revealed that China was being hacked if it weren't for the fact his pleas for asylum in Hong Kong(a highly desirable metropolis living location) were outright rejected. I would speculate that China was willing to send him back to the US, if it weren't for the fact that he released information to the public, essentially forcing China's hand. And no, Julian Assange did not leak any actual information, he is just the information broker. It is a completely different situation and scenario. I actually have a lot of sympathy for Mr. Assange, and I feel he has been wrong persecuted/accused because of his good work. I can't say the same for Snowden or Bradley Manning. In the case of Snowden, he's basically leaking secret government tactics to the world, while bradley manning is a dumbass who basically leaked confidential government cables that did not reveal anything illicit(with his access, i'm sure he could've released some CIA files instead of embassy cables). As for your explanation of a paradox. That is not a paradox. That is something along the lines of patriotism or nationalism. Your sensationalist examples are unrealistic and irrelevant. | ||
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GnoM
Norway145 Posts
But from the little I know I have to say no, he is not guilty. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On June 27 2013 07:19 GnoM wrote: It depends on what he have done with the information. But from the little I know I have to say no, he is not guilty. There's really only one thing that has to happen for him to lose credibility--and that is sell information. If he doesn't sell information, then we can put him on trial for espionage and have a public discourse on the relevance and importance of dragnet surveillance that will ratify into law a precedent on how we as a nation attain and manage government intelligence. If he sold information, then he is on trial for treason and will be given the death penalty. No discourse on government practices will be brought up since he will be on trial for treason, not for spreading of information. | ||
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Sokrates
738 Posts
It is so interesting that my country has the same "priority" than china, saudiarabia and iran. The americans are taking part in industrial espionage and other Surveillance of germany and other countries and nobody gives a fuck. If any other country in the world would have such activities running the public outcry would be enormous but it seems like they can treat my country and others as a vassal state of the US and A. Well done. It just makes me sick how much selfrighteous the americans act on a global scale and nobody is punishing them for it. They talk about the axis of evil and impose restrictions on other countrys. What a bunch of fucking hypocrits, i m highly disappointed by the USA. I was always under the impression that the USA had at least some decency. You may call snowden a traitor, but then again the USA was traiting the whole world. So if they punish him, they should be punished aswell. That would just be logical. | ||
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
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Meatex
Australia285 Posts
Certainly they were embarrassed but this conduct was largely assumed and general populace held the notion of out of sight out of mind. And really what are people going to do; stop using the internet and phone? Not to mention majority of information gathered will not be seen by a human. The US Government's concerns are two fold First; they need to set an example as they the go even slightly easy on him another guy will think well he did it and got away with it so I should too (and make money out of it) Second; they are concerned he will use extra information he has obtained to finance himself cause how else will he make money to survive in which ever country gives him asylum (if any)? | ||
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Domus
510 Posts
On an ethical level, no, what Snowden did was not wrong. He has said that he is careful in what information he releases publicly so that people are not in danger. The information he has given us is actually vital in telling us how our own governments operate. Information that should be public knowledge anyway, maybe not detailed information on how they operate, but global information and if it violates human rights/constitutions. Not just the USA, but also the European governments. We are being painted a picture that shows that in the "free" west we are starting to live in a full big brother scenario. When we add things like the increasing disparity between rich and poor. The amount of people being incarcerated in the USA (more than any country in the world, the USA has over 25% of all people incarcerated in the world), Guantanamo bay. It all amounts to an image that does not match with what we want in our western societies. I think the average person in the West are living very different lives/expecting very different things from the people with the money and power. I think most of us know that we are not our governments. If the US government does something bad, I don't blame a US citizen. But I do think that people have become to reluctant to defend their rights or maybe more importantly of people who need their rights defended, but don't have the power to do so. Hell, and who knows. Maybe a post like this will upgrade me in their system to "potential radical", and they will keep an eye on me. Is this what we want in our society? | ||
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Jaiden
Germany60 Posts
On June 30 2013 18:54 Sokrates wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining It is so interesting that my country has the same "priority" than china, saudiarabia and iran. The americans are taking part in industrial espionage and other Surveillance of germany and other countries and nobody gives a fuck. If any other country in the world would have such activities running the public outcry would be enormous but it seems like they can treat my country and others as a vassal state of the US and A. Well done. It just makes me sick how much selfrighteous the americans act on a global scale and nobody is punishing them for it. They talk about the axis of evil and impose restrictions on other countrys. What a bunch of fucking hypocrits, i m highly disappointed by the USA. I was always under the impression that the USA had at least some decency. You may call snowden a traitor, but then again the USA was traiting the whole world. So if they punish him, they should be punished aswell. That would just be logical. Can't agree more. It makes me so angry reading stuff like that. 1984 wasn't '84, but it is now. How on earth can they justify spying on the EU government? Are they terrorists? What is going through their minds if they classify Germany as a country that's on the same level as China and Iran? What is the next thing? Germany is an attack target - am i now in the cross-hair of a drone strike launched from a military base in my own country just because i voice my disgust against the "Nobel Peace Prize winner" and his own Stasi 2.0? BTW on topic: Snowden may be guilty of espionage but that man is a hero in my eyes and every country that's going to prosecute him should be publicly shunned. In the end, he did a great thing for the "people" of the USA and the whole world. | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On June 30 2013 18:54 Sokrates wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining It is so interesting that my country has the same "priority" than china, saudiarabia and iran. The americans are taking part in industrial espionage and other Surveillance of germany and other countries and nobody gives a fuck. If any other country in the world would have such activities running the public outcry would be enormous but it seems like they can treat my country and others as a vassal state of the US and A. Well done. It just makes me sick how much selfrighteous the americans act on a global scale and nobody is punishing them for it. They talk about the axis of evil and impose restrictions on other countrys. What a bunch of fucking hypocrits, i m highly disappointed by the USA. I was always under the impression that the USA had at least some decency. You may call snowden a traitor, but then again the USA was traiting the whole world. So if they punish him, they should be punished aswell. That would just be logical. I love this post. Who are these "Americans" that act so self righteous? Who is this "THEY" that must be punished? Making blanket statements like "the AMERICANS SHOULD BE PUNISHED" is silly and immature. Mama Jane down the street didn't do shit. The NSA janitor didn't do shit. Using language like that plus nonsense like vassal state is just revealing a ridiculous preconceived bias on your part more than anything. And just because Germany is the same color as China and iran means what exactly? Yeah. Nothing. Are these colors representative of the likelihood of the state committing an attack against the US? What does it actually mean? Are you privy to the information that determined the color Germany is on this map? Wasn't it In Germany when two americans got murdered brutally in an airport? Hmm. | ||
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Sokrates
738 Posts
There is no reason to treat the usa not the same way we treat other states. Mame jane isnt responsible for this but so is Adileh xy from iran. It is your government that did these things, and it is the iraninian government that is doing this things. Yet the people get punished aswell. My point is biased because your country is spying on us with no justification at all and nobody gives a fuck. And then thje usa invaded iraq and other countries calling them axis of evil yet they spy on other countires. And then you discuss if snowden is a traitor, wtf :D. THe colours on the map symbolise to what extend the usa was gathering information and surveiling it. Means the darker the colour the more emails, phone calls etc. they were spying on. SO what justification does the USA have to spy on other countries to that ridicolous extend. Imagine another country doing this... imagine the iran had the capacity to do this, the next month the american army would be invading the country. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On June 30 2013 20:25 Sokrates wrote: So if you apply sanctions on the iran, how do you think is going to suffer? THe people are going to suffer, the iranians are going to suffer. So give me ONE reason why we shouldnt apply massive sanctions to the usa other than having to suffer a finacial loss aswell? There is no reason to treat the usa not the same way we treat other states. Mame jane isnt responsible for this but so is Adileh xy from iran. It is your government that did these things, and it is the iraninian government that is doing this things. Yet the people get punished aswell. My point is biased because your country is spying on us with no justification at all and nobody gives a fuck. And then thje usa invaded iraq and other countries calling them axis of evil yet they spy on other countires. And then you discuss if snowden is a traitor, wtf :D. THe colours on the map symbolise to what extend the usa was gathering information and surveiling it. Means the darker the colour the more emails, phone calls etc. they were spying on. SO what justification does the USA have to spy on other countries to that ridicolous extend. Imagine another country doing this... imagine the iran had the capacity to do this, the next month the american army would be invading the country. Obviously this shit is a massive casus belli. Closing the US bases in Germany would be the least id be expecting from our politicians but they are all little puppets I guess. Only naive people would be thinking this is about terrorist threats from Germany. Its massive industrial espionage. But I guess its okay. Germany is a partner 3rd class according to the US. Maybe we should rather be partners first class to China and Russia. | ||
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