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On April 02 2013 19:33 sc2superfan101 wrote:Conscription ignores the realities of modern warfare, and modern society. off topic: + Show Spoiler +Just as allowing women to serve in the military ignores the realities of warfare in general, and of gender roles in general. So even if conscription is your thing, best to keep it exclusively male.
Not having conscription ignores the realities of the world and how fragile our current state of global affairs is. To operate emergent technologies you need a large standing army. To get the large standing army you need soldiers, and professional soldiers do not work for the same low pay as a conscripted soldier.
Not having conscription leads to a highly specialized and aging force that at best can hold the country for 12 hours or participate within a small parameter of an operation during international collaborations. This professional army will lack response times during natural disasters because of a highly centralized base of operations, and their capacity to function optimally if the scale of the disaster is large enough is significantly diminished from a larger force based on conscription. It will also lack the capacity to draft from the people educated in the tools of their trade that previously attended the army because the only sort of soldier they would attract is the career soldier.
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On April 02 2013 05:42 Coriolis wrote:
Drafts usually don't end well, but I can see why forced service even during peace time can be a good thing. A lot of people are total losers, and I doubt some military discipline will hurt them.
Separating people into winners and losers, yup, you and military are a good fit. I had a cousin who went into the military here in Brazil, he went from a normal teen(homophobic, sexist, nihilist) into an abnormal adult(homophobic, sexist, nihilist). I went to his graduation in the military HQ, everything sucked, from food to basic social skills. Here in Brazil alistment is mandatory but you dont have to actually do service, you go into "reserve". Gosh it's so hideous.
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its useless.
modern warfare is not about masses of infantry anymore, there is no need for a massive standing army unless you border countries like north korea.
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If anything we should be bringing back mandatory military service, or at the very least, militia service. I have a great deal of respect for countries like Austria, Norway, Singapore, Switzerland, etc. for they still value responsibility.
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Better to keep the draft available in case it's needed than to get rid of it, though hopefully Uncle Sam won't trust cowardly pacifist wimps like me with a rifle
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On April 02 2013 22:56 Alpino wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 05:42 Coriolis wrote:
Drafts usually don't end well, but I can see why forced service even during peace time can be a good thing. A lot of people are total losers, and I doubt some military discipline will hurt them. Separating people into winners and losers, yup, you and military are a good fit. I had a cousin who went into the military here in Brazil, he went from a normal teen(homophobic, sexist, nihilist) into an abnormal adult(homophobic, sexist, nihilist). I went to his graduation in the military HQ, everything sucked, from food to basic social skills. Here in Brazil alistment is mandatory but you dont have to actually do service, you go into "reserve". Gosh it's so hideous.
Bolded. What?
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The only reason I would be for it, is to spread the sacrifice among rich/poor families. Of course, it doesn't work that way so I suppose I am against it.
Military life isn't for everyone, and especially in my case. Discipline ha! pretty much gave me an even more rebellious/pessimistic view of things in general. Although I am thankful that I got to experience other cultures outside of the US, definitely. My Italian friends would always throw great parties for me when I finished my time restricted to the base. :D
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On April 02 2013 18:46 evilfatsh1t wrote:
im gonna say yes, even though im a korean australian and therefore dont need to serve in korea's military. besides the obvious fact that were still at war, many koreans (especially the older generation), believe that going to the military "mans you up." a lot of people before going to the military are still clueless about life and require guidance and discipline. sure, spending 2 years in the military is a bitch, but there are some positives that come out of it that arent really noticeable to people outside korean society.
I had a Korean friend in college who did his military service before coming to America. When i was talking to him about it he honestly hated it so much. It did "man him up" i guess because he said that when he got back from doing military service he was able to become agitated a lot more quickly and generally just a more aggressive person (although he didnt seem much that angry to me).
I think mandatory military sounds good in theory, building character and leadership in the youth and all that. But people are just to wide of a spectrum to force everyone into military service. Some people will benefit from discipline and direction but others just aren't cut for the military life.
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On April 02 2013 22:57 LaNague wrote:
its useless.
modern warfare is not about masses of infantry anymore, there is no need for a massive standing army unless you border countries like north korea.
This is honestly what occupies most of my thoughts when the idea of confronting the DPRK comes to mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Army
These are obviously estimates in the sidebar, but open state to state war would be a rout, X vs. 1 essentially; however the potential human cost to the North Korean population makes me really nervous.
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To the OP
I think mandatory military enlistment would be like asking yourself if you need to build 10 marines fast in case of a Zergling rush 
EDIT: I'm not that familiar with the power and tech level of the Chinese military, but I do believe if they did not have a requirement for all citizens to enlist for two years than their military would probably be weak as hell and they'd be vulnerable to an attack.
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On April 02 2013 22:57 LaNague wrote:
its useless.
modern warfare is not about masses of infantry anymore, there is no need for a massive standing army unless you border countries like north korea.
If 90% of a nations male citizens (18-64yo), have some kind of basic military training, its a nightmare from a potential occupiers perspective; Everyone is a potential freedom fighter. I wouldn't say its any more useless now than it used to be.
In the army, I myself thought getting paid 5$ a day for doing sometimes 24 hour workdays, that it was legal slavery, but looking back I did at least get a lot of new friends, funny stories and frankly, got to do lots of really cool shit I would have never done, and probably never will.
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Just a funny fact, Due to being born in germany to a british family (dad was in British Army) he had to sign papers to prevent me having to move back to germany when i was older for Mandatory Enlistment. :D
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Huge waste of time and it made dumber if anything. Lost about 100.000 USD in income because of it. Meanwhile the women I went to university with were working and getting paid. Totally fair. If there is some way to avoid it, maybe a made up medical condition or something, you should consider it if you live in one of these asshole countries that make you do military service.
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On April 03 2013 00:05 NagAfightinG wrote:
Just a funny fact, Due to being born in germany to a british family (dad was in British Army) he had to sign papers to prevent me having to move back to germany when i was older for Mandatory Enlistment. :D
I vaguely remember my mother saying something about this (she was British)... with the Vietnam War raging on and on and would have saved me from a draft I think (assuming the war carried on that long or a new one with a new draft :D).
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On April 02 2013 07:58 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 07:44 Rash wrote:On April 02 2013 06:59 Hookster wrote:
Usually if you have a strong nation, you have good defence willingness. In Finland that is around 80%, which is very high. If it was not mandatory, everybody would not go there. Why? Because when you are 18-20 you are still a kid and you do stupid things. After the service you have good memories about it. Also, sometimes in life you have to do something which is not fun. Get over it.
Edit: and for the conscription picture: it is not the same everywhere. De jure it is "mandatory" in many nations, but rich people buy their way out of it. For example, in México (where I live atm) you can just bribe the officials to skip the service. It's semi-mandatory. I'm mexican as well, and there's a raffle where a ball is picked. If when your name is called a black ball is pulled, it means you have to be "available" which for the last 50+ years means you forget about it and just pick your papers in a few months. If a white ball is pulled, then you can pick between civil service (mainly take part in alphabetization/reforestation/disaster recovery stuff) or the actual military training on the army or navy once a week for 11 months. The black to other colors ratio is about 10/1 However, I do agree that if a white or blue is pulled, bribing the officer is traditionally resorted by wealthy people, although passing military service is socially regarded as an accomplishment, so they guys that pass through it are generally proud of doing so. I love how you guys made a game-show out of it. Is the selection-process televised, commentated and girls in bikinis shake their marraccas, while a guy with a mustache and a huge hat shoots two pistols in the air?
I wish! It would get lots more attention if it were like that  . Maybe I choosed my wording poorly. What I mean by "raffle" is just a dull bureaucrat in a podium calling names from a list while picking the balls from a huge cardbox. For the pistols part, kinda dangerous considering there's always at least an armed soldier present (maybe for the looks lol?)
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On April 02 2013 20:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
I'm surprised tbh, TL seems very cosmopolitan and non-nationalistic at times, but in this thread the consensus seems to be that this is a good/necessary things.
Also, for those saying that their service was beneficial/'taught discipline' etc, I don't disagree but can some of you expand on what you mean? There's an interesting discussion to be had, I for one don't think that accepting orders and working hard are necessarily inherently good things.
On the positive side, I think it's an institutionalized way to make sure everybody knows the value of hard work, of camaraderie and of dealing with hard situations. For some it's also their first experience outside the comfort of a protective enviroment like school, family, etc.
On the negative side, it's true that many of these values get associated with foolish nationalism, in which the falacy of: "Because it's hard work and I grew as a person by doing it, the institution that forced me into it must live by those values", which of course isn't.
I want to say it's a way to ensure at least once in a person's life, specially as brand new adults, we understand/experience the above values. It's not the best one, and its effectiveness varies from person to person, but since your ability to get a job highly depends on it, it's maybe the best "massive" way for a government to ensure that growing step is taken (aside from all the other admin/military benefits). Since governments have to deal with HUGE ammounts of ppl, they aim for the standard, without considering the tails of the distribution.
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
Hm Rash, well put. I still am against it on principle but at least you've put some thought into the response
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I am opposed to a mandatory draft. I am not a nationalist in any way and also most wars are just capitalists fighting each other and I dont want to be a mere pawn in their games, my life is way too important for that.
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sorry misread first time-
I think maybe in south korea is sorta makes sense, if I had north korea breathing down my neck Id want as many people to be trained as possible.
Elsewhere in the developed world, I dont think its needed. Maybe as a discipline type of thing instead of prison it could have some uses but that seems a little harsh
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I would never kill another human being for my country and I would rather go to prison then serve a mandatory military service.
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EPT
