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On August 02 2013 04:39 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 02:24 Klondikebar wrote:
Your first assumption is wrong. Assuming nobody asks and nobody discloses, the trans person sleeps with 9 strangers and all 9 of them are fine. Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Yeah it is, neo vaginas are identical to cis vaginas. FTM isn't there yet but MTF can create a female sex that is indistinguishable from cis gendered females.
This is just bullshit.
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On August 02 2013 04:44 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:39 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 02:24 Klondikebar wrote:
Your first assumption is wrong. Assuming nobody asks and nobody discloses, the trans person sleeps with 9 strangers and all 9 of them are fine. Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Yeah it is, neo vaginas are identical to cis vaginas. FTM isn't there yet but MTF can create a female sex that is indistinguishable from cis gendered females. This is just bullshit.
No, its fact. People can't tell unless they are informed. Google that shit if you care.
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On August 02 2013 04:44 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:39 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 02:24 Klondikebar wrote:
Your first assumption is wrong. Assuming nobody asks and nobody discloses, the trans person sleeps with 9 strangers and all 9 of them are fine. Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Yeah it is, neo vaginas are identical to cis vaginas. FTM isn't there yet but MTF can create a female sex that is indistinguishable from cis gendered females. This is just bullshit.
you are mistaken. it is in fact quite accurate.
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On August 02 2013 04:44 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:39 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 02:24 Klondikebar wrote:
Your first assumption is wrong. Assuming nobody asks and nobody discloses, the trans person sleeps with 9 strangers and all 9 of them are fine. Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Yeah it is, neo vaginas are identical to cis vaginas. FTM isn't there yet but MTF can create a female sex that is indistinguishable from cis gendered females. This is just bullshit.
But its true if you endlessly repeat it!
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On August 02 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:38 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 04:09 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 03:52 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 03:48 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:12 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 02:05 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 02:03 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 01:58 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 01:56 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Except when you are being oppressed, then we should stand with you because its the right thing to do, not because it directly effects us. Not at all. In this case the person who's a transphobe is being a bigot. He's the "oppressor." And sure, we grant that he has the right to be a transphobe. But bigots can do their own work. Why are we making it easier? Oppression actually happens when people go out of their way to harm you when you have done nothing. You stand against that because there's no reason to think oppressors won't eventually turn on you. So you nip it in the bud. So if I find out someone I am going to sleep with is trans and I am uncomfortable with that, I am a bigot? I don't know what you are but we've all been using the term "transphobe" for a while. Transphobes are bigots. You've acted like a huge asshole and bigot the past dozen or so pages, so maybe you should withhold your judgement... Anyway, according to your twisted logic raping a woman by means of a rape pill is a non-issue as long as you don't infect her with an STD and are gentle about it. I don't think anyone would consider you a moral authority, so keep your opinions to yourself. Just because you think its rape to have sex with a trans woman unknowingly doesnt make it rape. We have laws thag define rape. Stop calling it rape when its not. Thats like saying that i have been raped because i slept with a woman who lost all her hair and used a wig because i find bald people not sexually attractive. Making a person have sex with you they did not give consent to is rape. Just because you have no regard for those people and want to use them as sex toys, apparently, does not make it not rape. Its not rape. They did give consent to sex, hence the sex. Scamming people is a form of theft. Which is normally punished by a fine. You can't be tricked into sleeping with someone and charge them with rape afterword.
In many countries discriminating against transsexuals or even oppressing them is not illegal. I don't see how something being according to the letter of the law ends the discussion of ethicality. Marital rape is not considered rape in many, many countries. Does that mean it's not actually rape? According to their law, getting married is a continuous consent to sex, so technically marital rape is not rape...
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On August 02 2013 04:42 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:40 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:39 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Yeah it is, neo vaginas are identical to cis vaginas. There's a lot more to being a woman than having a vagina, even disregarding procreation. I also am not convinced that a neo vagina is 100% identical in every way to a cis vagina. Do you mean they look the same? Or that they are actually identical in every way, inside and out? Depending on how much you can spend, they're essentially identical even to professionals. Obviously, they're not linked to reproductive bits though (yet).
This is what I am talking about. Essentially is not 100%. You can't keep pretending equality exists in the absence of equality. Its not accurate to say they are the same when there are small differences. A small difference is still a difference. Just because there are societal factors that make you think they should be treated as equals etc does not mean that science is capable of yielding a 100% perfect female transition. Until it is a 100% perfect female transition, it is not equal, the same, or identical.
People obsess over the concept of equality without even making sure its actually true. Yes, they are equal as humans in every way, but to say they are exactly the same as someone born a woman is false. Its not true yet and its not immoral to recognize that.
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On August 02 2013 04:45 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:44 Crushinator wrote:On August 02 2013 04:39 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Yeah it is, neo vaginas are identical to cis vaginas. FTM isn't there yet but MTF can create a female sex that is indistinguishable from cis gendered females. This is just bullshit. But its true if you endlessly repeat it!
When doctors can tell the difference from the outside, it is fact. Sorry to kill your fail safe there, but your boner won't be able to tell.
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On August 02 2013 04:42 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:38 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 04:09 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 03:52 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 03:48 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:12 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 02:05 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 02:03 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 01:58 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 01:56 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Except when you are being oppressed, then we should stand with you because its the right thing to do, not because it directly effects us. Not at all. In this case the person who's a transphobe is being a bigot. He's the "oppressor." And sure, we grant that he has the right to be a transphobe. But bigots can do their own work. Why are we making it easier? Oppression actually happens when people go out of their way to harm you when you have done nothing. You stand against that because there's no reason to think oppressors won't eventually turn on you. So you nip it in the bud. So if I find out someone I am going to sleep with is trans and I am uncomfortable with that, I am a bigot? I don't know what you are but we've all been using the term "transphobe" for a while. Transphobes are bigots. You've acted like a huge asshole and bigot the past dozen or so pages, so maybe you should withhold your judgement... Anyway, according to your twisted logic raping a woman by means of a rape pill is a non-issue as long as you don't infect her with an STD and are gentle about it. I don't think anyone would consider you a moral authority, so keep your opinions to yourself. Just because you think its rape to have sex with a trans woman unknowingly doesnt make it rape. We have laws thag define rape. Stop calling it rape when its not. Thats like saying that i have been raped because i slept with a woman who lost all her hair and used a wig because i find bald people not sexually attractive. Making a person have sex with you they did not give consent to is rape. Just because you have no regard for those people and want to use them as sex toys, apparently, does not make it not rape. Its not rape. They did give consent to sex, hence the sex. Scamming people is a form of theft. Can you explain how this is a "scam" or "trick"? Being yourself and allowing people to form their own assumptions doesn't fit those terms imo...
Read KwarK's posts. He already explained that very well.
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On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 02:24 Klondikebar wrote:
Your first assumption is wrong. Assuming nobody asks and nobody discloses, the trans person sleeps with 9 strangers and all 9 of them are fine. Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now.
Now this is actually something I'd like to discuss. So, excluding physical qualities that don't actually exist (used to be a man or used to be a weight lifter), what is a physical quality that a trans woman has that no cis woman has? And be careful, because your answer might exclude some cis women.
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On August 02 2013 04:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:42 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 02 2013 04:40 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:39 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:
[quote]
Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Yeah it is, neo vaginas are identical to cis vaginas. There's a lot more to being a woman than having a vagina, even disregarding procreation. I also am not convinced that a neo vagina is 100% identical in every way to a cis vagina. Do you mean they look the same? Or that they are actually identical in every way, inside and out? Depending on how much you can spend, they're essentially identical even to professionals. Obviously, they're not linked to reproductive bits though (yet). This is what I am talking about. Essentially is not 100%. You can't keep pretending equality exists in the absence of equality. Its not accurate to say they are the same when there are small differences. A small difference is still a difference. Just because there are societal factors that make you think they should be treated as equals etc does not mean that science is capable of yielding a 100% perfect female transition. Until it is a 100% perfect female transition, it is not equal, the same, or identical. People obsess over the concept of equality without even making sure its actually true. Yes, they are equal as humans in every way, but to say they are exactly the same as someone born a woman is false. Its not true yet and its not immoral to recognize that.
I would adivse you look up the information yourself, I qualified it with essentially because the only difference I can name is that it's harder to end up with a loose neo vagina. If a gynecologist were to examine it, they would figure out by the lack of the additional internal parts, not by any examination of it.
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On August 02 2013 04:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:42 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 02 2013 04:40 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:39 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:
[quote]
Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Yeah it is, neo vaginas are identical to cis vaginas. There's a lot more to being a woman than having a vagina, even disregarding procreation. I also am not convinced that a neo vagina is 100% identical in every way to a cis vagina. Do you mean they look the same? Or that they are actually identical in every way, inside and out? Depending on how much you can spend, they're essentially identical even to professionals. Obviously, they're not linked to reproductive bits though (yet). This is what I am talking about. Essentially is not 100%. You can't keep pretending equality exists in the absence of equality. Its not accurate to say they are the same when there are small differences. A small difference is still a difference. Just because there are societal factors that make you think they should be treated as equals etc does not mean that science is capable of yielding a 100% perfect female transition. Until it is a 100% perfect female transition, it is not equal, the same, or identical. People obsess over the concept of equality without even making sure its actually true. Yes, they are equal as humans in every way, but to say they are exactly the same as someone born a woman is false. Its not true yet and its not immoral to recognize that.
There are differences in cis vaginas as well. They aren't "essentially identical" Plansix was just tacking that on to try to prepare for this methaphysical bullshit you're pulling by saying "THEY'RE TECHNICALLY DIFFERENT YALL!" but apparently you didn't get that.
A cosmetic surgeon is the only person who can distinguish between a trans and a cis vagina and even then he'd probably be wrong because hormones do so much more than he did. For the purposes of this discussion, they are completely identical.
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On August 02 2013 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 04:38 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 04:09 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 03:52 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 03:48 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:12 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 02:05 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 02:03 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 01:58 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. In this case the person who's a transphobe is being a bigot. He's the "oppressor." And sure, we grant that he has the right to be a transphobe. But bigots can do their own work. Why are we making it easier?
Oppression actually happens when people go out of their way to harm you when you have done nothing. You stand against that because there's no reason to think oppressors won't eventually turn on you. So you nip it in the bud. So if I find out someone I am going to sleep with is trans and I am uncomfortable with that, I am a bigot? I don't know what you are but we've all been using the term "transphobe" for a while. Transphobes are bigots. You've acted like a huge asshole and bigot the past dozen or so pages, so maybe you should withhold your judgement... Anyway, according to your twisted logic raping a woman by means of a rape pill is a non-issue as long as you don't infect her with an STD and are gentle about it. I don't think anyone would consider you a moral authority, so keep your opinions to yourself. Just because you think its rape to have sex with a trans woman unknowingly doesnt make it rape. We have laws thag define rape. Stop calling it rape when its not. Thats like saying that i have been raped because i slept with a woman who lost all her hair and used a wig because i find bald people not sexually attractive. Making a person have sex with you they did not give consent to is rape. Just because you have no regard for those people and want to use them as sex toys, apparently, does not make it not rape. Its not rape. They did give consent to sex, hence the sex. Scamming people is a form of theft. Which is normally punished by a fine. You can't be tricked into sleeping with someone and charge them with rape afterword. In many countries discriminating against transsexuals or even oppressing them is not illegal. I don't see how something being according to the letter of the law ends the discussion of ethicality. Marital rape is not considered rape in many, many countries. Does that mean it's not actually rape? According to their law, getting married is a continuous consent to sex, so technically marital rape is not rape...
yeah, but those countires are filled with assholes, why do I give a fuck about people who are oppressing transgender people? Or people who thing that marital rape is ok? Those people are fucks and dead to me.
Once again, you wanted to fuck them at the time, but later found out you got more than you wanted. Its not rape, its just you not having all the information and not asking for it. You didn't get tricked, but you can be grumpy. It wasn't nice, but that is about it. Its like a guy who says he is going to call and then doesn't.
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On August 02 2013 04:49 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 02:24 Klondikebar wrote:
Your first assumption is wrong. Assuming nobody asks and nobody discloses, the trans person sleeps with 9 strangers and all 9 of them are fine. Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Now this is actually something I'd like to discuss. So, excluding physical qualities that don't actually exist (used to be a man or used to be a vegan), what is a physical quality that a trans woman has that no cis woman has? And be careful, because your answer might exclude some cis women.
How is "used to be a man" not a quality that exists? "Used to be a prostitute" is also a quality that exists.
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On August 02 2013 04:51 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:49 shinosai wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 02:24 Klondikebar wrote:
Your first assumption is wrong. Assuming nobody asks and nobody discloses, the trans person sleeps with 9 strangers and all 9 of them are fine. Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Now this is actually something I'd like to discuss. So, excluding physical qualities that don't actually exist (used to be a man or used to be a vegan), what is a physical quality that a trans woman has that no cis woman has? And be careful, because your answer might exclude some cis women. How is "used to be a man" not a quality that exists? "Used to be a prostitute" is also a quality that exists.
Actually, no, those aren't qualities that exist. The whole "used to" part means they, by definition, don't exist anymore.
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On August 02 2013 04:51 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:49 shinosai wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 02:24 Klondikebar wrote:
Your first assumption is wrong. Assuming nobody asks and nobody discloses, the trans person sleeps with 9 strangers and all 9 of them are fine. Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Now this is actually something I'd like to discuss. So, excluding physical qualities that don't actually exist (used to be a man or used to be a vegan), what is a physical quality that a trans woman has that no cis woman has? And be careful, because your answer might exclude some cis women. How is "used to be a man" not a quality that exists? "Used to be a prostitute" is also a quality that exists.
They're not physical qualities. They're qualities that exist only in the past and not in the present.
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On August 02 2013 04:50 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:46 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:42 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 02 2013 04:40 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:39 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot.
I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Yeah it is, neo vaginas are identical to cis vaginas. There's a lot more to being a woman than having a vagina, even disregarding procreation. I also am not convinced that a neo vagina is 100% identical in every way to a cis vagina. Do you mean they look the same? Or that they are actually identical in every way, inside and out? Depending on how much you can spend, they're essentially identical even to professionals. Obviously, they're not linked to reproductive bits though (yet). This is what I am talking about. Essentially is not 100%. You can't keep pretending equality exists in the absence of equality. Its not accurate to say they are the same when there are small differences. A small difference is still a difference. Just because there are societal factors that make you think they should be treated as equals etc does not mean that science is capable of yielding a 100% perfect female transition. Until it is a 100% perfect female transition, it is not equal, the same, or identical. People obsess over the concept of equality without even making sure its actually true. Yes, they are equal as humans in every way, but to say they are exactly the same as someone born a woman is false. Its not true yet and its not immoral to recognize that. There are differences in cis vaginas as well. They aren't "essentially identical" Plansix was just tacking that on to try to prepare for this methaphysical bullshit you're pulling by saying "THEY'RE TECHNICALLY DIFFERENT YALL!" but apparently you didn't get that. A cosmetic surgeon is the only person who can distinguish between a trans and a cis vagina and even then he'd probably be wrong because hormones do so much more than he did. For the purposes of this discussion, they are completely identical.
I'll assume you know this shit better than I do and take your word for it. I would, however, assume that this is an ideal case.
From what I understand, the quality of the transition is dependent on the time of the transition. As such, someone who tried to transition when they were 30 years old will probably not transition as well. Do you see a certain % of divergence from someone born a woman where someone *is* morally obligated to say they are trans? What I mean is, someone picks someone up at a bar, they head back to someone's place to bang. If someone isn't well transitioned, are they obligated to let the person know before they're about to have sex?
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On August 02 2013 04:54 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:50 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:46 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:42 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 02 2013 04:40 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:39 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:
[quote]
Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman.
Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Yeah it is, neo vaginas are identical to cis vaginas. There's a lot more to being a woman than having a vagina, even disregarding procreation. I also am not convinced that a neo vagina is 100% identical in every way to a cis vagina. Do you mean they look the same? Or that they are actually identical in every way, inside and out? Depending on how much you can spend, they're essentially identical even to professionals. Obviously, they're not linked to reproductive bits though (yet). This is what I am talking about. Essentially is not 100%. You can't keep pretending equality exists in the absence of equality. Its not accurate to say they are the same when there are small differences. A small difference is still a difference. Just because there are societal factors that make you think they should be treated as equals etc does not mean that science is capable of yielding a 100% perfect female transition. Until it is a 100% perfect female transition, it is not equal, the same, or identical. People obsess over the concept of equality without even making sure its actually true. Yes, they are equal as humans in every way, but to say they are exactly the same as someone born a woman is false. Its not true yet and its not immoral to recognize that. There are differences in cis vaginas as well. They aren't "essentially identical" Plansix was just tacking that on to try to prepare for this methaphysical bullshit you're pulling by saying "THEY'RE TECHNICALLY DIFFERENT YALL!" but apparently you didn't get that. A cosmetic surgeon is the only person who can distinguish between a trans and a cis vagina and even then he'd probably be wrong because hormones do so much more than he did. For the purposes of this discussion, they are completely identical. I'll assume you know this shit better than I do and take your word for it. I would, however, assume that this is an ideal case. From what I understand, the quality of the transition is dependent on the time of the transition. As such, someone who tried to transition when they were 30 years old will probably not transition as well. Do you see a certain % of divergence from someone born a woman where someone *is* morally obligated to say they are trans? What I mean is, someone picks someone up at a bar, they head back to someone's place to bang. If someone isn't well transitioned, are they obligated to let the person know before they're about to have sex?
If someone isn't well transitioned then you're just having sex with an ugly chick. No, they aren't obligated to disclose.
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United States42609 Posts
On August 02 2013 04:26 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:21 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:19 ComaDose wrote:On August 02 2013 04:17 Darkwhite wrote:
I need you to clear up a hypothetical for me.
Let's say I have a first cousin who's lived her whole life in a different country. I go there in the summer and approach her as a stranger without disclosing our kinship. She takes a liking to me - we start dating and having sex.
Later, she finds out I am her first cousin and that I knew this all along but didn't tell her. Is it her fault that she didn't explicitly make it clear when she met me that she wouldn't want to have a sexual relationship with close family members? insest equivalencies now lol I don't see anything morally wrong with first cousin incest assuming protection. Especially when they're strangers. It's barely incest, not by the standards of a few centuries ago or the American south. But the partner could be reasonably expected to have views on it which would alter their decision to consent based on the withheld information. The analogy works. No it does not. Are you really trying to imply that transphobic people may find sex with trans people by any means "morally wrong"?
Yes, transphobic people can have a moral problem with having sex with transgender people, even though they might not be able to tell the difference. The analogy works perfectly.
You're having sex with the girl you know is your first cousin. You didn't grow up together or anything like that and you don't plan on having children together, you're just fucking. The fact that she's your first cousin makes literally no difference, you don't see each other as family, you never seen each other before (although you know she's your cousin because you researched some obscure family history), you're just two strangers who happen to have more genes in common that most.
When she finds out she's really upset because she has a problem with incest between first cousins. She's mad at you for not telling her. You point out that you're indistinguishable from any other pair of strangers who started fucking and that if she had a problem with fucking first cousins what she should have done is asked you, and everyone else she ever fucks, "are we first cousins?" in order to rule this possibility out. She replies "or perhaps you could have thought maybe this might have been an issue for me given that the stigma of incest is a pretty well known thing and you knew we were cousins whereas I had no way of knowing and no reason to ask".
Who is right?
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On August 02 2013 04:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 04:38 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 04:09 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 03:52 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 03:48 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:12 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 02:05 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 02:03 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
So if I find out someone I am going to sleep with is trans and I am uncomfortable with that, I am a bigot? I don't know what you are but we've all been using the term "transphobe" for a while. Transphobes are bigots. You've acted like a huge asshole and bigot the past dozen or so pages, so maybe you should withhold your judgement... Anyway, according to your twisted logic raping a woman by means of a rape pill is a non-issue as long as you don't infect her with an STD and are gentle about it. I don't think anyone would consider you a moral authority, so keep your opinions to yourself. Just because you think its rape to have sex with a trans woman unknowingly doesnt make it rape. We have laws thag define rape. Stop calling it rape when its not. Thats like saying that i have been raped because i slept with a woman who lost all her hair and used a wig because i find bald people not sexually attractive. Making a person have sex with you they did not give consent to is rape. Just because you have no regard for those people and want to use them as sex toys, apparently, does not make it not rape. Its not rape. They did give consent to sex, hence the sex. Scamming people is a form of theft. Which is normally punished by a fine. You can't be tricked into sleeping with someone and charge them with rape afterword. In many countries discriminating against transsexuals or even oppressing them is not illegal. I don't see how something being according to the letter of the law ends the discussion of ethicality. Marital rape is not considered rape in many, many countries. Does that mean it's not actually rape? According to their law, getting married is a continuous consent to sex, so technically marital rape is not rape... yeah, but those countires are filled with assholes, why do I give a fuck about people who are oppressing transgender people? Or people who thing that marital rape is ok? Those people are fucks and dead to me. Once again, you wanted to fuck them at the time, but later found out you got more than you wanted. Its not rape, its just you not having all the information and not asking for it. You didn't get tricked, but you can be grumpy. It wasn't nice, but that is about it. Its like a guy who says he is going to call and then doesn't.
According to some people you're also an asshole, don't forget that. ^___^
I just pointed out that just because something is not considered rape according to the law does not mean it's not actually rape. I find the rationalization that tricking someone into having sex he would otherwise give no consent to and be strongly against is equally ridiculous as the rationalization behind not considering marital rape rape.
edit: Plus you keep saying as if that was a trivial thing, when in reality for many, many people it is not trivial and can be as traumatic as typical rape is for women. It's not yours to decide how traumatic certain events are for people, now you're acting like Klondikebar...
And to say one wasn't tricked is blatantly stupid. If a scam artist tricks you into thinking you're making a really good deal and then takes your life saving away from you, even though you gave consent to that "business" it doesn't make it okay or not immoral because you failed to realize you gave an uninformed consent to an ill-intentioned person.
On August 02 2013 04:53 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:51 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 04:49 shinosai wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Now this is actually something I'd like to discuss. So, excluding physical qualities that don't actually exist (used to be a man or used to be a vegan), what is a physical quality that a trans woman has that no cis woman has? And be careful, because your answer might exclude some cis women. How is "used to be a man" not a quality that exists? "Used to be a prostitute" is also a quality that exists. They're not physical qualities. They're qualities that exist only in the past and not in the present.
Yes, they're not physical, they're intangible, but that doesn't stop them from being present, intangible qualities that in the past used to be tangible. They can still be deal breakers and you should respect that, simple as that. How come people who preach tolerance are some intolerant themselves?
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On August 02 2013 04:52 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:51 maybenexttime wrote:On August 02 2013 04:49 shinosai wrote:On August 02 2013 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On August 02 2013 04:30 Klondikebar wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2013 04:07 Shodaa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2013 03:56 Smat wrote:On August 02 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Are the strangers bigots if they are upset if they find out that they slept with a transgender and didn't know? Yep. They would be. Why are sexual proclivities the holy grail that cannot be criticised based on prejudice while everything else can be criticized? Of course.you have UNFAIR and irrational prejudice if you become upset after sleeping with a trans woman. Only you can decide if you are ok with having that prejudice. Just dont freak out and get defensive when people call a spade a spade. Cool. You won't mind if I say that you folks seem to be using your minority status to bully people into confirming social norms that make life easier for you. I mean, your confort level is what matters here and making sure that you don't have to disclose anythign that makes uncomfortable. And if I don't want to sleep with someoen who is trangender, I best keep it to myself because I don't want to be called a bigot. I am all about equal right and making sure people are treated fairly in every way. But I am pretty done when people start calling me a bigot based on who I want to sleep with. Because the main reason why you would refuse sex with a woman you find attractive because she told you she was trans after you already found her attractive is because you don't consider her equal to a cis woman. Maybe you have a better justification, but this is the obvious conclusion. Maybe not equally as attractive but why should they have to? They're not literally the same thing. Trans is not the same as cis. It's not a distinction I especially care about but if someone else does and all they want to do is deny the trans person their penis then that's their call. This is another point I wanted to address: A trans woman isn't presenting herself as cis and deceiving anyone. She's just presenting herself as a woman. The distinction between trans and cis is a false one and it's not her job to reinforce it for anyone. Until a trans woman is actually 100% identical and not just pretty much the same, I don't think you have a proper case for saying a distinction is false. Science isn't there yet. Its just not possible right now. Now this is actually something I'd like to discuss. So, excluding physical qualities that don't actually exist (used to be a man or used to be a vegan), what is a physical quality that a trans woman has that no cis woman has? And be careful, because your answer might exclude some cis women. How is "used to be a man" not a quality that exists? "Used to be a prostitute" is also a quality that exists. Actually, no, those aren't qualities that exist. The whole "used to" part means they, by definition, don't exist anymore.
If they aren't qualities that exist then we wouldn't be able to understand what they refer to, and yet we can. Having been a prostitute is certainly a legitimate distinction to make between two individuals. We can make such a distinction based entirely on factual information and without opinion, so in what sense does the distinction not exist? Or are you arguing that people should literally not be permitted to have preferences about things other than immediate, physical characteristics? What the hell?
That's like saying you shouldn't be able to refuse friendship to an ex-con on those grounds once he's served his time in prison...
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