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On August 01 2013 20:24 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:29 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 08:24 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:
[quote]
These parts wouldn't be missing.
The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference. C'mon. You know what the means. Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are. But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with. Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:
[quote]
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie. Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl. It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before. You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters. Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile  I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Wow. I'm curious if there is anyone else who sees this as moral behavior. This is pretty damn deceptive and I'd be furious if someone didn't tell me ahead of time. Why's it so deceptive? Why does it even matter? What do you want, a resume for a one night stand? Why am I such a horrible person for it? Why is it worse to hide this than it is for a guy to beat the living shit out of me when I tell him? I just want to know why you think it's such a horrible act, I know it's not great but it's certainly not as bad as you're making it sound right? On August 01 2013 08:26 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:
[quote]
These parts wouldn't be missing.
The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference. C'mon. You know what the means. Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are. But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with. Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:
[quote]
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie. Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl. It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before. You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters. Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Well maybe you shouldnt have one night stands then? I get that you want to do whatever anyone else does, but your whole reasoning sounds extremely egocentric to be honest. Egocentric? Why am I such a horrible person all of the sudden? I'm not some fucking spider waiting for a male to fuck me so I can bite his head off and suck out his organs. It's sex, just sex. There's no strings attached that's the point. I havent said youre a horrible person, I said your way of reasoning is extremely egocentric. Why? Because you want to have people respect and at the very least tolerate your lifechoices all while you have no respect or tolerance for others. If someone else finds out afterwards and feels bad about it, hey thats their problem right because theyre just "thinking wrong" because "hey its just sex". Ie youre being egocentric as fuck. Im half jewish, and while I have zero understanding for neonazism as an ideology I still would consider it immoral of me to have a ons with a hot nazi-chick all while knowing she wouldnt want to have sex with me if she knew I was half jewish. Its called false pretence, and its not canelled out just because the other persons having "stupid" opinions or beliefs. Its still a violation of their personal space. Two wrongs dont make a right.
You're assuming that being transgender is a choice, or a life choice. It is not a choice. Unless you consider choosing between depression and suicide or an happy life a choice.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On August 01 2013 20:42 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:24 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:29 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 08:24 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are. But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with. Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:
[quote]
Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie. Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl. It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before. You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters. Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Wow. I'm curious if there is anyone else who sees this as moral behavior. This is pretty damn deceptive and I'd be furious if someone didn't tell me ahead of time. Why's it so deceptive? Why does it even matter? What do you want, a resume for a one night stand? Why am I such a horrible person for it? Why is it worse to hide this than it is for a guy to beat the living shit out of me when I tell him? I just want to know why you think it's such a horrible act, I know it's not great but it's certainly not as bad as you're making it sound right? On August 01 2013 08:26 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are. But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with. Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:
[quote]
Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie. Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl. It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before. You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters. Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Well maybe you shouldnt have one night stands then? I get that you want to do whatever anyone else does, but your whole reasoning sounds extremely egocentric to be honest. Egocentric? Why am I such a horrible person all of the sudden? I'm not some fucking spider waiting for a male to fuck me so I can bite his head off and suck out his organs. It's sex, just sex. There's no strings attached that's the point. I havent said youre a horrible person, I said your way of reasoning is extremely egocentric. Why? Because you want to have people respect and at the very least tolerate your lifechoices all while you have no respect or tolerance for others. If someone else finds out afterwards and feels bad about it, hey thats their problem right because theyre just "thinking wrong" because "hey its just sex". Ie youre being egocentric as fuck. Im half jewish, and while I have zero understanding for neonazism as an ideology I still would consider it immoral of me to have a ons with a hot nazi-chick all while knowing she wouldnt want to have sex with me if she knew I was half jewish. Its called false pretence, and its not canelled out just because the other persons having "stupid" opinions or beliefs. Its still a violation of their personal space. Two wrongs dont make a right. You're assuming that being transgender is a choice, or a life choice. It is not a choice. Unless you consider choosing between depression and suicide or an happy life a choice.
To be fair, having the surgery is in fact a choice, even if it isn't much of one. Identifying as a different gender to your sex isn't a choice though, which is the root of it.
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On August 01 2013 20:42 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:24 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:29 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 08:24 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are. But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with. Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:
[quote]
Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie. Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl. It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before. You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters. Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Wow. I'm curious if there is anyone else who sees this as moral behavior. This is pretty damn deceptive and I'd be furious if someone didn't tell me ahead of time. Why's it so deceptive? Why does it even matter? What do you want, a resume for a one night stand? Why am I such a horrible person for it? Why is it worse to hide this than it is for a guy to beat the living shit out of me when I tell him? I just want to know why you think it's such a horrible act, I know it's not great but it's certainly not as bad as you're making it sound right? On August 01 2013 08:26 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are. But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with. Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:
[quote]
Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie. Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl. It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before. You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters. Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Well maybe you shouldnt have one night stands then? I get that you want to do whatever anyone else does, but your whole reasoning sounds extremely egocentric to be honest. Egocentric? Why am I such a horrible person all of the sudden? I'm not some fucking spider waiting for a male to fuck me so I can bite his head off and suck out his organs. It's sex, just sex. There's no strings attached that's the point. I havent said youre a horrible person, I said your way of reasoning is extremely egocentric. Why? Because you want to have people respect and at the very least tolerate your lifechoices all while you have no respect or tolerance for others. If someone else finds out afterwards and feels bad about it, hey thats their problem right because theyre just "thinking wrong" because "hey its just sex". Ie youre being egocentric as fuck. Im half jewish, and while I have zero understanding for neonazism as an ideology I still would consider it immoral of me to have a ons with a hot nazi-chick all while knowing she wouldnt want to have sex with me if she knew I was half jewish. Its called false pretence, and its not canelled out just because the other persons having "stupid" opinions or beliefs. Its still a violation of their personal space. Two wrongs dont make a right. You're assuming that being transgender is a choice, or a life choice. It is not a choice. Unless you consider choosing between depression and suicide or an happy life a choice.
Please actually read the comments you respond to... the issue was ONS and whether it is ok or not to intentionally withhold information that you know would be a dealbreaker if such information would surface. I doubt you really want to argue that having a ons isnt a choice, but be my guest lol.
To be fair, having the surgery is in fact a choice, even if it isn't much of one. Identifying as a different gender to your sex isn't a choice though, which is the root of it.
Completely irrelevant. There is absolutely no logical pathway from "being transgender isnt a choice" to "having ons isnt a choice". Its like arguing "being born isnt a choice" hence "going to the moon isnt a choice".
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On August 01 2013 20:57 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:42 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 20:24 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:29 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 08:24 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:
[quote]
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are. But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with. Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:
[quote]
Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl.
It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before. You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters. Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Wow. I'm curious if there is anyone else who sees this as moral behavior. This is pretty damn deceptive and I'd be furious if someone didn't tell me ahead of time. Why's it so deceptive? Why does it even matter? What do you want, a resume for a one night stand? Why am I such a horrible person for it? Why is it worse to hide this than it is for a guy to beat the living shit out of me when I tell him? I just want to know why you think it's such a horrible act, I know it's not great but it's certainly not as bad as you're making it sound right? On August 01 2013 08:26 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:
[quote]
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are. But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with. Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:
[quote]
Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl.
It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before. You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters. Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Well maybe you shouldnt have one night stands then? I get that you want to do whatever anyone else does, but your whole reasoning sounds extremely egocentric to be honest. Egocentric? Why am I such a horrible person all of the sudden? I'm not some fucking spider waiting for a male to fuck me so I can bite his head off and suck out his organs. It's sex, just sex. There's no strings attached that's the point. I havent said youre a horrible person, I said your way of reasoning is extremely egocentric. Why? Because you want to have people respect and at the very least tolerate your lifechoices all while you have no respect or tolerance for others. If someone else finds out afterwards and feels bad about it, hey thats their problem right because theyre just "thinking wrong" because "hey its just sex". Ie youre being egocentric as fuck. Im half jewish, and while I have zero understanding for neonazism as an ideology I still would consider it immoral of me to have a ons with a hot nazi-chick all while knowing she wouldnt want to have sex with me if she knew I was half jewish. Its called false pretence, and its not canelled out just because the other persons having "stupid" opinions or beliefs. Its still a violation of their personal space. Two wrongs dont make a right. You're assuming that being transgender is a choice, or a life choice. It is not a choice. Unless you consider choosing between depression and suicide or an happy life a choice. Please actually read the comments you respond to... the issue was ONS and whether it is ok or not to intentionally withhold information that you know would be a dealbreaker if such information would surface. I doubt you really want to argue that having a ons isnt a choice, but be my guest lol. Show nested quote +To be fair, having the surgery is in fact a choice, even if it isn't much of one. Identifying as a different gender to your sex isn't a choice though, which is the root of it. Completely irrelevant. There is absolutely NO logical pathway from "being transgender isnt a choice" to "having ons isnt a choice". Its like arguing "being born isnt a choice" hence "going to the moon isnt a choice". Good one.
Being transgender is very personal and not something I disclose to everybody in real life, especially not stranger. I'm not going to tell a stranger my whole medical history, and I don't expect her to do so either. Unless if it dangerous, like HIV, etc.
Really, it just that from my point of view it's not even a problem. I can't see how it is a problem unless you have some internalized transphobia and you think you are being tricked into homosexual/heterosexual sex. Should I tell everybody that I had my appendix removed too ? Should a person says if he was circumcised or not before sex ?
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United States41979 Posts
On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 07:50 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:48 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 07:45 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. There is a disparity of information and of reasonable assumptions here. It is a reasonable assumption for someone to assume another person is cis, not because cis people matter more but because we're a vast, vast majority. Your argument is predicated on it being reasonable to expect everyone to establish whether or not everyone else is cisgender before sex, despite the assumption being correct the vast, vast majority of the time. It is not reasonable. Trans people know when the assumptions are wrong because they are the minority, they have the information. Also a fling doesn't change the importance of consent. Does that imply its reasonable to assume that being a trans person is a deal breaker for most people? thats sad. Maybe not most but certainly a significant number. Have you not read this topic? yeah i have but to spell it out all logically like that and ask people to accept it is note-worthily sad imo. Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them.
I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.
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On August 01 2013 21:16 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:57 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 20:42 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 20:24 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:29 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 08:24 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters.
Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Wow. I'm curious if there is anyone else who sees this as moral behavior. This is pretty damn deceptive and I'd be furious if someone didn't tell me ahead of time. Why's it so deceptive? Why does it even matter? What do you want, a resume for a one night stand? Why am I such a horrible person for it? Why is it worse to hide this than it is for a guy to beat the living shit out of me when I tell him? I just want to know why you think it's such a horrible act, I know it's not great but it's certainly not as bad as you're making it sound right? On August 01 2013 08:26 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters.
Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Well maybe you shouldnt have one night stands then? I get that you want to do whatever anyone else does, but your whole reasoning sounds extremely egocentric to be honest. Egocentric? Why am I such a horrible person all of the sudden? I'm not some fucking spider waiting for a male to fuck me so I can bite his head off and suck out his organs. It's sex, just sex. There's no strings attached that's the point. I havent said youre a horrible person, I said your way of reasoning is extremely egocentric. Why? Because you want to have people respect and at the very least tolerate your lifechoices all while you have no respect or tolerance for others. If someone else finds out afterwards and feels bad about it, hey thats their problem right because theyre just "thinking wrong" because "hey its just sex". Ie youre being egocentric as fuck. Im half jewish, and while I have zero understanding for neonazism as an ideology I still would consider it immoral of me to have a ons with a hot nazi-chick all while knowing she wouldnt want to have sex with me if she knew I was half jewish. Its called false pretence, and its not canelled out just because the other persons having "stupid" opinions or beliefs. Its still a violation of their personal space. Two wrongs dont make a right. You're assuming that being transgender is a choice, or a life choice. It is not a choice. Unless you consider choosing between depression and suicide or an happy life a choice. Please actually read the comments you respond to... the issue was ONS and whether it is ok or not to intentionally withhold information that you know would be a dealbreaker if such information would surface. I doubt you really want to argue that having a ons isnt a choice, but be my guest lol. To be fair, having the surgery is in fact a choice, even if it isn't much of one. Identifying as a different gender to your sex isn't a choice though, which is the root of it. Completely irrelevant. There is absolutely NO logical pathway from "being transgender isnt a choice" to "having ons isnt a choice". Its like arguing "being born isnt a choice" hence "going to the moon isnt a choice". Good one. Being transgender is very personal and not something I disclose to everybody in real life, especially not stranger. I'm not going to tell a stranger my whole medical history, and I don't expect her to do so either. Unless if it dangerous, like HIV, etc. Really, it just that from my point of view it's not even a problem. I can't see how it is a problem unless you have some internalized transphobia and you think you are being tricked into homosexual/heterosexual sex. Should I tell everybody that I had my appendix removed too ? Should a person says if he was circumcised or not before sex ?
Look. I dont care if its personal to you or not, I dont care why a person would care about it or if they dont. I dont care. What I do care about is INTENTIONALLY witholding information under the ASSUMPTION that it is indeed a dealbreaker. You cant see why it could be a problem, yet you know it is a problem for a lot of people. That is the difference between not telling youve had your appendix removed and not telling someone you have sex with youre transgender. If you knew the person youre about to have sex with wouldnt want to have sex with you if they knew you had your appendix removed the moral issue remains entirely the same. Its not about transgender or phobia, its about intentionally not respecting another human beings personal space, for reasons of personal gain.
Your way of reasoning is as egocentric as the other poster I responded to. Just because you dont understand something, that doesnt give you the right to violate another persons personal space.
I personally wouldnt really care if I found out afterwards by the way, but that is beside the point. Hence the neo-nazi analogy. I really dont like nazism, yet that doesnt give me the right to intentionally withhold the fact im half-jewish from a hot nazi-chick I want to bang.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On August 01 2013 20:57 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +To be fair, having the surgery is in fact a choice, even if it isn't much of one. Identifying as a different gender to your sex isn't a choice though, which is the root of it. Completely irrelevant. There is absolutely no logical pathway from "being transgender isnt a choice" to "having ons isnt a choice". Its like arguing "being born isnt a choice" hence "going to the moon isnt a choice".
I'm sorry, you don't seem to understand what 'choice' means. I don't even understand what angle you're taking here. I was just making a small, undeniable distinction, without intending to say anything with wide-ranging meaning.
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On August 01 2013 16:39 Smat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:31 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 08:22 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:17 RockIronrod wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are. But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with. Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:
[quote]
Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie. Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl. It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before. You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters. Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls. I think when it comes to hook ups, what you don't know won't hurt you. It is the risk you take when you have a one night stand, sometimes you get an STD, sometimes you sleep with someone who wasn't always a girl. Its a one night stand, no one looks to take the moral high ground during the walk of shame. Plus you can read some horror stories about tran-girls telling guys in the interest of full disclosure and the whole event turning violent. Sometimes what you don't know won't hurt you and its better that way. This looks like the same sort of logic which people use to convince themselves that they're actually doing their husband or wife a favor by not telling them that they are having an affair with a coworker. To me, it seems that withholding information from someone to prevent them from making an informed decision is rather questionable. So people should make sure to list every possible quality about themselves that someone may find negative before having sex with another person just in case that person would not want to have sex if he knew said quality?
No, they should list whatever characteristics are non-obvious, low-frequency and very likely to be something their partner cares about - in the sense that, if they knew in advance, they might have decided differently.
On August 01 2013 21:16 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 20:57 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 20:42 Shodaa wrote:On August 01 2013 20:24 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:29 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 08:24 Mohdoo wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters.
Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Wow. I'm curious if there is anyone else who sees this as moral behavior. This is pretty damn deceptive and I'd be furious if someone didn't tell me ahead of time. Why's it so deceptive? Why does it even matter? What do you want, a resume for a one night stand? Why am I such a horrible person for it? Why is it worse to hide this than it is for a guy to beat the living shit out of me when I tell him? I just want to know why you think it's such a horrible act, I know it's not great but it's certainly not as bad as you're making it sound right? On August 01 2013 08:26 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters.
Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Well maybe you shouldnt have one night stands then? I get that you want to do whatever anyone else does, but your whole reasoning sounds extremely egocentric to be honest. Egocentric? Why am I such a horrible person all of the sudden? I'm not some fucking spider waiting for a male to fuck me so I can bite his head off and suck out his organs. It's sex, just sex. There's no strings attached that's the point. I havent said youre a horrible person, I said your way of reasoning is extremely egocentric. Why? Because you want to have people respect and at the very least tolerate your lifechoices all while you have no respect or tolerance for others. If someone else finds out afterwards and feels bad about it, hey thats their problem right because theyre just "thinking wrong" because "hey its just sex". Ie youre being egocentric as fuck. Im half jewish, and while I have zero understanding for neonazism as an ideology I still would consider it immoral of me to have a ons with a hot nazi-chick all while knowing she wouldnt want to have sex with me if she knew I was half jewish. Its called false pretence, and its not canelled out just because the other persons having "stupid" opinions or beliefs. Its still a violation of their personal space. Two wrongs dont make a right. You're assuming that being transgender is a choice, or a life choice. It is not a choice. Unless you consider choosing between depression and suicide or an happy life a choice. Please actually read the comments you respond to... the issue was ONS and whether it is ok or not to intentionally withhold information that you know would be a dealbreaker if such information would surface. I doubt you really want to argue that having a ons isnt a choice, but be my guest lol. To be fair, having the surgery is in fact a choice, even if it isn't much of one. Identifying as a different gender to your sex isn't a choice though, which is the root of it. Completely irrelevant. There is absolutely NO logical pathway from "being transgender isnt a choice" to "having ons isnt a choice". Its like arguing "being born isnt a choice" hence "going to the moon isnt a choice". Good one. Being transgender is very personal and not something I disclose to everybody in real life, especially not stranger. I'm not going to tell a stranger my whole medical history, and I don't expect her to do so either. Unless if it dangerous, like HIV, etc. Really, it just that from my point of view it's not even a problem. I can't see how it is a problem unless you have some internalized transphobia and you think you are being tricked into homosexual/heterosexual sex. Should I tell everybody that I had my appendix removed too ? Should a person says if he was circumcised or not before sex ?
If you live in some strange society where roughly half the population would refuse to have sex with you if you have had your appendix removed, then yes, you should tell everybody that.
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On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 07:50 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:48 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 07:45 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:
[quote]
"After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing.
Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. There is a disparity of information and of reasonable assumptions here. It is a reasonable assumption for someone to assume another person is cis, not because cis people matter more but because we're a vast, vast majority. Your argument is predicated on it being reasonable to expect everyone to establish whether or not everyone else is cisgender before sex, despite the assumption being correct the vast, vast majority of the time. It is not reasonable. Trans people know when the assumptions are wrong because they are the minority, they have the information. Also a fling doesn't change the importance of consent. Does that imply its reasonable to assume that being a trans person is a deal breaker for most people? thats sad. Maybe not most but certainly a significant number. Have you not read this topic? yeah i have but to spell it out all logically like that and ask people to accept it is note-worthily sad imo. Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.
I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum.
If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.
If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears.
This was a very realistic problem between fifty and one hundred years ago. Biracial women who married white men because they passed as white would end up having their marriages annulled due to 'deception'. I must not be the only one who sees the similarity.
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On August 01 2013 21:55 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 07:50 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:48 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 07:45 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
There is a disparity of information and of reasonable assumptions here. It is a reasonable assumption for someone to assume another person is cis, not because cis people matter more but because we're a vast, vast majority. Your argument is predicated on it being reasonable to expect everyone to establish whether or not everyone else is cisgender before sex, despite the assumption being correct the vast, vast majority of the time. It is not reasonable. Trans people know when the assumptions are wrong because they are the minority, they have the information. Also a fling doesn't change the importance of consent. Does that imply its reasonable to assume that being a trans person is a deal breaker for most people? thats sad. Maybe not most but certainly a significant number. Have you not read this topic? yeah i have but to spell it out all logically like that and ask people to accept it is note-worthily sad imo. Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her. I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum. If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears.
You are not reconstructing the argument. You are making a false analogy, where you substitute something a lot of people care strongly about - i.e. transsexuality - with something very few people care about, namely mixed race. If it were true that equally many people would feel cheated, if they post hoc discovered that their partner was of mixed rather than pure heritage, as if they discovered they were transsexuals, the analogy would be accurate - I strongly doubt if this is true, unless you are from a Neo-Nazi suburb.
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On August 01 2013 21:54 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 16:39 Smat wrote:On August 01 2013 08:31 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 08:22 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:17 RockIronrod wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:
[quote]
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are. But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with. Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:
[quote]
Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl.
It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before. You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters. Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls. I think when it comes to hook ups, what you don't know won't hurt you. It is the risk you take when you have a one night stand, sometimes you get an STD, sometimes you sleep with someone who wasn't always a girl. Its a one night stand, no one looks to take the moral high ground during the walk of shame. Plus you can read some horror stories about tran-girls telling guys in the interest of full disclosure and the whole event turning violent. Sometimes what you don't know won't hurt you and its better that way. This looks like the same sort of logic which people use to convince themselves that they're actually doing their husband or wife a favor by not telling them that they are having an affair with a coworker. To me, it seems that withholding information from someone to prevent them from making an informed decision is rather questionable. So people should make sure to list every possible quality about themselves that someone may find negative before having sex with another person just in case that person would not want to have sex if he knew said quality? No, they should list whatever characteristics are non-obvious, low-frequency and very likely to be something their partner cares about - in the sense that, if they knew in advance, they might have decided differently.
Why are we trying to dictate rules for peoples sexual relationships? At the end of the day, its personal judgment and trust between two people. Regardless if it is what unknown trait people have, it is always a risk when you decide to sleep with someone that you might not know everything about them. Someone could have been addicted to drugs previously and has a high risk any number things and does not provide you with this information before you sleep with them.
At the end of the day, its all about personal judgment and trust. If you are willing to have sex with someone without knowing every single thing about them, that is your decision. If they decide to tell you everything and risk you changing your mind, that is theirs. And if you care that much, ask.
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On August 01 2013 22:03 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:55 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 07:50 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 07:48 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
Does that imply its reasonable to assume that being a trans person is a deal breaker for most people?
thats sad. Maybe not most but certainly a significant number. Have you not read this topic? yeah i have but to spell it out all logically like that and ask people to accept it is note-worthily sad imo. Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her. I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum. If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears. You are not reconstructing the argument. You are making a false analogy, where you substitute something a lot of people care strongly about - i.e. transsexuality - with something very few people care about, namely mixed race. If it were true that equally many people would feel cheated, if they post hoc discovered that their partner was of mixed rather than pure heritage, as if they discovered they were transsexuals, the analogy would be accurate - I strongly doubt if this is true, unless you are from a Neo-Nazi suburb.
They did used to care about it - therefore, not a false analogy, at least not on that front. People used to have their marriages annulled for deception because they did not disclose their racial status and were assumed white.
edit: You would have to be *extremely* ignorant to think that this was never something that a lot of people cared strongly about.
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On August 01 2013 22:05 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:03 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 21:55 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 07:50 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Maybe not most but certainly a significant number. Have you not read this topic? yeah i have but to spell it out all logically like that and ask people to accept it is note-worthily sad imo. Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her. I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum. If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears. You are not reconstructing the argument. You are making a false analogy, where you substitute something a lot of people care strongly about - i.e. transsexuality - with something very few people care about, namely mixed race. If it were true that equally many people would feel cheated, if they post hoc discovered that their partner was of mixed rather than pure heritage, as if they discovered they were transsexuals, the analogy would be accurate - I strongly doubt if this is true, unless you are from a Neo-Nazi suburb. They did used to care about it - therefore, not a false analogy, at least not on that front. People used to have their marriages annulled for deception because they did not disclose their racial status and were assumed white. edit: You would have to be *extremely* ignorant to think that this was never something that a lot of people cared strongly about.
And back then not disclosing that information, no matter how unfair, arbitrary or unreasonable that "deal breaker" might be, would be taking advantage of the said person. As Snusmumriken said, two wrongs don't make a right.
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On August 01 2013 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:05 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 22:03 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 21:55 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 07:50 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
yeah i have but to spell it out all logically like that and ask people to accept it is note-worthily sad imo. Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her. I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum. If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears. You are not reconstructing the argument. You are making a false analogy, where you substitute something a lot of people care strongly about - i.e. transsexuality - with something very few people care about, namely mixed race. If it were true that equally many people would feel cheated, if they post hoc discovered that their partner was of mixed rather than pure heritage, as if they discovered they were transsexuals, the analogy would be accurate - I strongly doubt if this is true, unless you are from a Neo-Nazi suburb. They did used to care about it - therefore, not a false analogy, at least not on that front. People used to have their marriages annulled for deception because they did not disclose their racial status and were assumed white. edit: You would have to be *extremely* ignorant to think that this was never something that a lot of people cared strongly about. And back then not disclosing that information, no matter how unfair, arbitrary or unreasonable that "deal breaker" might be, would be taking advantage of the said person. As Snusmumriken said, two wrongs don't make a right.
So as long as we're clear then, the argument seems to be: As long as the majority of the population finds something to be distasteful and it would cause them to not sleep with you, you *must* disclose your status of this distasteful thing. It does not matter if it is being a natural blonde, being biracial, liking peanutbutter, or transsexualism - the important thing is that we must not cause inconvenience to the majority of the population. Am I getting this right? Because to me this sounds completely absurd.
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On August 01 2013 22:05 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:03 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 21:55 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 07:50 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Maybe not most but certainly a significant number. Have you not read this topic? yeah i have but to spell it out all logically like that and ask people to accept it is note-worthily sad imo. Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her. I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum. If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears. You are not reconstructing the argument. You are making a false analogy, where you substitute something a lot of people care strongly about - i.e. transsexuality - with something very few people care about, namely mixed race. If it were true that equally many people would feel cheated, if they post hoc discovered that their partner was of mixed rather than pure heritage, as if they discovered they were transsexuals, the analogy would be accurate - I strongly doubt if this is true, unless you are from a Neo-Nazi suburb. They did used to care about it - therefore, not a false analogy, at least not on that front. People used to have their marriages annulled for deception because they did not disclose their racial status and were assumed white.
Back when people did care about it, it was indeed something you should let your partners know.
On August 01 2013 22:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:54 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 16:39 Smat wrote:On August 01 2013 08:31 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 08:22 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:17 RockIronrod wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:34 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late. "After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing. Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*. On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters.
Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier. Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing... I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls. I think when it comes to hook ups, what you don't know won't hurt you. It is the risk you take when you have a one night stand, sometimes you get an STD, sometimes you sleep with someone who wasn't always a girl. Its a one night stand, no one looks to take the moral high ground during the walk of shame. Plus you can read some horror stories about tran-girls telling guys in the interest of full disclosure and the whole event turning violent. Sometimes what you don't know won't hurt you and its better that way. This looks like the same sort of logic which people use to convince themselves that they're actually doing their husband or wife a favor by not telling them that they are having an affair with a coworker. To me, it seems that withholding information from someone to prevent them from making an informed decision is rather questionable. So people should make sure to list every possible quality about themselves that someone may find negative before having sex with another person just in case that person would not want to have sex if he knew said quality? No, they should list whatever characteristics are non-obvious, low-frequency and very likely to be something their partner cares about - in the sense that, if they knew in advance, they might have decided differently. Why are we trying to dictate rules for peoples sexual relationships? At the end of the day, its personal judgment and trust between two people. Regardless if it is what unknown trait people have, it is always a risk when you decide to sleep with someone that you might not know everything about them. Someone could have been addicted to drugs previously and has a high risk any number things and does not provide you with this information before you sleep with them. At the end of the day, its all about personal judgment and trust. If you are willing to have sex with someone without knowing every single thing about them, that is your decision. If they decide to tell you everything and risk you changing your mind, that is theirs. And if you care that much, ask.
The only thing I am trying to dictate is that you let people know about the things which are they are likely to care about and unlikely to know. This is not a moral principle specific to sex or one night stands or transsexuals, this is basic honesty. It is indeed a matter of trust between two people - we are discussing whether withholding your transsexuality is betraying that trust or not.
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United States41979 Posts
On August 01 2013 22:05 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:03 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 21:55 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 07:50 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Maybe not most but certainly a significant number. Have you not read this topic? yeah i have but to spell it out all logically like that and ask people to accept it is note-worthily sad imo. Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her. I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum. If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears. You are not reconstructing the argument. You are making a false analogy, where you substitute something a lot of people care strongly about - i.e. transsexuality - with something very few people care about, namely mixed race. If it were true that equally many people would feel cheated, if they post hoc discovered that their partner was of mixed rather than pure heritage, as if they discovered they were transsexuals, the analogy would be accurate - I strongly doubt if this is true, unless you are from a Neo-Nazi suburb. They did used to care about it - therefore, not a false analogy, at least not on that front. People used to have their marriages annulled for deception because they did not disclose their racial status and were assumed white. edit: You would have to be *extremely* ignorant to think that this was never something that a lot of people cared strongly about.
You don't have to agree with them caring about it, you simply have to understand that they care about it and that failing to inform them is obtaining consent through a lie of omission. The half Jewish neo Nazi example mentioned earlier made the point perfectly clear I thought.
There are two strands to this
Firstly, if you believe that their consent is conditional on an assumption which you know to be incorrect then you ought to tell them. Hopefully everyone can agree to that because if you can't we're moving into pretty rapey territory. If you think it's fine to have sex with someone who would not consent given equal information then we don't have much more to debate here, clearly you place no value on their right to consent.
Secondly, whether or not it is reasonable to assume their consent might be conditional on cis status. The argument that if they cared that much about it they would have asked does not work. Clearly an awful lot of people do care about it, this topic has shown that, this is something trans people ought to be aware of. However given the ratio of cis to trans it is very, very likely that a potential partner will be cis, failure to ask is much more likely to be an assumption that the partner is cis than a statement that they do not mind either way.
The second point shows that people do care and that a failure to ask does not indicate a lack of caring about the issue. The first shows that in a situation in which consent is predicated upon a condition one party knows to be false there is an obligation to disclose. Therefore trans people should disclose.
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On August 01 2013 22:18 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:On August 01 2013 22:05 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 22:03 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 21:55 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her. I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum. If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears. You are not reconstructing the argument. You are making a false analogy, where you substitute something a lot of people care strongly about - i.e. transsexuality - with something very few people care about, namely mixed race. If it were true that equally many people would feel cheated, if they post hoc discovered that their partner was of mixed rather than pure heritage, as if they discovered they were transsexuals, the analogy would be accurate - I strongly doubt if this is true, unless you are from a Neo-Nazi suburb. They did used to care about it - therefore, not a false analogy, at least not on that front. People used to have their marriages annulled for deception because they did not disclose their racial status and were assumed white. edit: You would have to be *extremely* ignorant to think that this was never something that a lot of people cared strongly about. And back then not disclosing that information, no matter how unfair, arbitrary or unreasonable that "deal breaker" might be, would be taking advantage of the said person. As Snusmumriken said, two wrongs don't make a right. So as long as we're clear then, the argument seems to be: As long as the majority of the population finds something to be distasteful and it would cause them to not sleep with you, you *must* disclose your status of this distasteful thing. It does not matter if it is being a natural blonde, being biracial, liking peanutbutter, or transsexualism - the important thing is that we must not cause inconvenience to the majority of the population. Am I getting this right? Because to me this sounds completely absurd.
Only because youre phrasing it in such a way. Whether or not its "distasteful" or not or if its an opinion shared by the majority or not is besides the point. What matters is that you are a) infering that a person wouldnt have a ons with you if they knew something about you and b) that youre withholding this information from the person because c) you want to have sex.
It doesnt matter if the information is racial identity, past gender, real haircolour or whatever. What matters is that by doing so youre knowingly decieving someone. And that is wrong, and even if the beliefs held by that person are utterly absurd or extremely immoral it is still wrong.
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On August 01 2013 22:22 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:05 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 22:03 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 21:55 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 07:50 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
yeah i have but to spell it out all logically like that and ask people to accept it is note-worthily sad imo. Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her. I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum. If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears. You are not reconstructing the argument. You are making a false analogy, where you substitute something a lot of people care strongly about - i.e. transsexuality - with something very few people care about, namely mixed race. If it were true that equally many people would feel cheated, if they post hoc discovered that their partner was of mixed rather than pure heritage, as if they discovered they were transsexuals, the analogy would be accurate - I strongly doubt if this is true, unless you are from a Neo-Nazi suburb. They did used to care about it - therefore, not a false analogy, at least not on that front. People used to have their marriages annulled for deception because they did not disclose their racial status and were assumed white. Back when people did care about it, it was indeed something you should let your partners know. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:03 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 21:54 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 16:39 Smat wrote:On August 01 2013 08:31 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 08:22 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:17 RockIronrod wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:40 fugs wrote:
[quote]
"After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing.
Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*.
[quote]
Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing...
I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps. Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex. If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls. I think when it comes to hook ups, what you don't know won't hurt you. It is the risk you take when you have a one night stand, sometimes you get an STD, sometimes you sleep with someone who wasn't always a girl. Its a one night stand, no one looks to take the moral high ground during the walk of shame. Plus you can read some horror stories about tran-girls telling guys in the interest of full disclosure and the whole event turning violent. Sometimes what you don't know won't hurt you and its better that way. This looks like the same sort of logic which people use to convince themselves that they're actually doing their husband or wife a favor by not telling them that they are having an affair with a coworker. To me, it seems that withholding information from someone to prevent them from making an informed decision is rather questionable. So people should make sure to list every possible quality about themselves that someone may find negative before having sex with another person just in case that person would not want to have sex if he knew said quality? No, they should list whatever characteristics are non-obvious, low-frequency and very likely to be something their partner cares about - in the sense that, if they knew in advance, they might have decided differently. Why are we trying to dictate rules for peoples sexual relationships? At the end of the day, its personal judgment and trust between two people. Regardless if it is what unknown trait people have, it is always a risk when you decide to sleep with someone that you might not know everything about them. Someone could have been addicted to drugs previously and has a high risk any number things and does not provide you with this information before you sleep with them. At the end of the day, its all about personal judgment and trust. If you are willing to have sex with someone without knowing every single thing about them, that is your decision. If they decide to tell you everything and risk you changing your mind, that is theirs. And if you care that much, ask. The only thing I am trying to dictate is that you let people know about the things which are they are likely to care about and unlikely to know. This is not a moral principle specific to sex or one night stands or transsexuals, this is basic honesty. It is indeed a matter of trust between two people - we are discussing whether withholding your transsexuality is betraying that trust or not.
It is, but not one that is that big of a deal. Anyone who argues it isn’t a violation of trust is wrong, because it totally could lead to the other part being hurt or feeling betrayed. However, it doesn’t mean that it on a level that people should care about. It is similar to not disclosing all your previous sexual partners or not telling someone that you are married. There are people out there that would be upset if they slept with a married person.
There are valid reasons not to do so, like not knowing of the person you having a one night stand is a violent homophobe. There is a serious risk of physical violence that could escalate to any level, the decision to provide that information should be made carefully. Also, violent homophobes do not disclose they are violent homophobes before they have a one night stand either.
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United States41979 Posts
And it really, really sucks that violent homophobes do horrible things to trans people but tricking them into what they would view as gay sex is not going to help the situation.
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On August 01 2013 22:18 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:On August 01 2013 22:05 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 22:03 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 21:55 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her. I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum. If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears. You are not reconstructing the argument. You are making a false analogy, where you substitute something a lot of people care strongly about - i.e. transsexuality - with something very few people care about, namely mixed race. If it were true that equally many people would feel cheated, if they post hoc discovered that their partner was of mixed rather than pure heritage, as if they discovered they were transsexuals, the analogy would be accurate - I strongly doubt if this is true, unless you are from a Neo-Nazi suburb. They did used to care about it - therefore, not a false analogy, at least not on that front. People used to have their marriages annulled for deception because they did not disclose their racial status and were assumed white. edit: You would have to be *extremely* ignorant to think that this was never something that a lot of people cared strongly about. And back then not disclosing that information, no matter how unfair, arbitrary or unreasonable that "deal breaker" might be, would be taking advantage of the said person. As Snusmumriken said, two wrongs don't make a right. So as long as we're clear then, the argument seems to be: As long as the majority of the population finds something to be distasteful and it would cause them to not sleep with you, you *must* disclose your status of this distasteful thing. It does not matter if it is being a natural blonde, being biracial, liking peanutbutter, or transsexualism - the important thing is that we must not cause inconvenience to the majority of the population. Am I getting this right? Because to me this sounds completely absurd.
The argument is very, very simple: If you have good reason to believe that your partner might change his mind, given information you can choose whether or not to disclose, then you have an obligation to tell your partner and let him make the call.
It has nothing to do with inconveniencing the majority.
Similarly, if I were to become part of a transsexual dating site, where the default assumptions would be that everybody is transsexual, I would consider myself obligated to let my partners know that I am not a transsexual myself, because they have a right to make an informed decision. On a regular dating site, where transsexuality is not the norm, the obligation would lie with the transsexuals.
On August 01 2013 22:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:22 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 22:05 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 22:03 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 21:55 shinosai wrote:On August 01 2013 21:29 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 10:22 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 08:30 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:27 ComaDose wrote:On August 01 2013 08:15 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them. I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all. So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them. I read it and I disagreed with it. If transgenders were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely they are simply assuming a trans woman is a cis woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the trans woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her. I'm going to have to disagree with you via analogy, reconstructing your argument through reductio ad absurdum. If biracials were a significant portion of the population then it'd be reasonable to interpret not asking directly as not caring but they are not. It is not a reasonable interpretation to make, it is much more likely that they are simply assuming a biracial woman is a single race woman because the vast, vast majority are. In this context the biracial woman has far more information than her partner, she knows she's an outlier where the question could realistically be relevant. In that situation it is reasonable to place the onus for bringing it up on her.If we reconstruct the argument in this way, we can see that your real argument is not at all about how prevalent transsexualism is. Rather, there is a sort of hidden view here that there is something wrong with trans women, and therefore they ought to disclose. Without the hidden premise 'there is something wrong with trans women, and they need to disclose it' this argument makes no sense. It is not nearly as innocent as it appears. You are not reconstructing the argument. You are making a false analogy, where you substitute something a lot of people care strongly about - i.e. transsexuality - with something very few people care about, namely mixed race. If it were true that equally many people would feel cheated, if they post hoc discovered that their partner was of mixed rather than pure heritage, as if they discovered they were transsexuals, the analogy would be accurate - I strongly doubt if this is true, unless you are from a Neo-Nazi suburb. They did used to care about it - therefore, not a false analogy, at least not on that front. People used to have their marriages annulled for deception because they did not disclose their racial status and were assumed white. Back when people did care about it, it was indeed something you should let your partners know. On August 01 2013 22:03 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 21:54 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 16:39 Smat wrote:On August 01 2013 08:31 Darkwhite wrote:On August 01 2013 08:22 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 08:17 RockIronrod wrote:On August 01 2013 08:08 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote:
[quote]
Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex.
If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not. I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important. I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it. Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls. I think when it comes to hook ups, what you don't know won't hurt you. It is the risk you take when you have a one night stand, sometimes you get an STD, sometimes you sleep with someone who wasn't always a girl. Its a one night stand, no one looks to take the moral high ground during the walk of shame. Plus you can read some horror stories about tran-girls telling guys in the interest of full disclosure and the whole event turning violent. Sometimes what you don't know won't hurt you and its better that way. This looks like the same sort of logic which people use to convince themselves that they're actually doing their husband or wife a favor by not telling them that they are having an affair with a coworker. To me, it seems that withholding information from someone to prevent them from making an informed decision is rather questionable. So people should make sure to list every possible quality about themselves that someone may find negative before having sex with another person just in case that person would not want to have sex if he knew said quality? No, they should list whatever characteristics are non-obvious, low-frequency and very likely to be something their partner cares about - in the sense that, if they knew in advance, they might have decided differently. Why are we trying to dictate rules for peoples sexual relationships? At the end of the day, its personal judgment and trust between two people. Regardless if it is what unknown trait people have, it is always a risk when you decide to sleep with someone that you might not know everything about them. Someone could have been addicted to drugs previously and has a high risk any number things and does not provide you with this information before you sleep with them. At the end of the day, its all about personal judgment and trust. If you are willing to have sex with someone without knowing every single thing about them, that is your decision. If they decide to tell you everything and risk you changing your mind, that is theirs. And if you care that much, ask. The only thing I am trying to dictate is that you let people know about the things which are they are likely to care about and unlikely to know. This is not a moral principle specific to sex or one night stands or transsexuals, this is basic honesty. It is indeed a matter of trust between two people - we are discussing whether withholding your transsexuality is betraying that trust or not. It is, but not one that is that big of a deal. Anyone who argues it isn’t a violation of trust is wrong, because it totally could lead to the other part being hurt or feeling betrayed. However, it doesn’t mean that it on a level that people should care about. It is similar to not disclosing all your previous sexual partners or not telling someone that you are married. There are people out there that would be upset if they slept with a married person. There are valid reasons not to do so, like not knowing of the person you having a one night stand is a violent homophobe. There is a serious risk of physical violence that could escalate to any level, the decision to provide that information should be made carefully. Also, violent homophobes do not disclose they are violent homophobes before they have a one night stand either.
You decide what you think is a big deal. Your partner decides what he thinks is a big deal. That you don't think someone ought to care about something, does not mean you can disregard their preferences. I personally don't think Muslims ought to care about eating pork, but I still feel obligated to let them know if they're about to eat bacon.
It is not similar to not disclosing all your sexual partners, unless your sexual history is very unusual. It is similar to not letting someone know you are married, but that's not okay in the first place.
Violent homophobes are criminals. It does not excuse other forms of dishonest behavior, unless you are specifically trying to lower yourself to their level.
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EPT
