On August 01 2013 04:43 heliusx wrote: I don't think the transgender people in here would be happy with anything short of people accepting their viewpoint that transgender are exactly the same as someone born that way. Is this correct? It would explain a lot.
But they aren't exactly the same, why can't they just accept it? When I refer to them as different, it's not in a demeaning way, it's just calling it for it is.
Why won't people just believe my completely unfounded, disproven, and untrue claims for which I have no evidence?! I'm not being insulting! I just think we should deny people certain rights based on an opinion I formed of them 5 minutes ago!
wait what rights are being denied? The right to force others to accept their opinions on gender and sexuality?
They can't even use the correct bathroom in most states...
So their right, to use the "right" bathroom, because they identify with that sex, is above the right of the rest of the people who would feel uncomfortable to share the same bathroom with someone they don't identify as the same sex?
Yes. It is completely above and beyond the right of the rest of the people to not feel uncomfortable due to their own prejudice.
On August 01 2013 15:53 Shiragaku wrote: Oh yeah, I can definitely tell you stories about transphobic feminists. And as much as I love many second wave feminists, their critique on transgenderism makes me very sad at times. However, within my circle of social justice buddies, pretty much all of us have put transgenderism as the number one issue for the LGBT movement.
Feminists are another that suffer from the curse of everyone who identifies with them being used to judge the entirety of the movement.
It's a shame really, but hey I'm not a woman and my opinions on the actions of certain feminists not necessarily being conducive to gaining male acceptance don't matter Despite the fact that under their models you know, being the dominant group in society means we'd kind of be useful to get on board.
On August 01 2013 05:04 Klondikebar wrote: [quote]
They can't even use the correct bathroom in most states...
So their right, to use the "right" bathroom, because they identify with that sex, is above the right of the rest of the people who would feel uncomfortable to share the same bathroom with someone they don't identify as the same sex?
A trans woman going into men bathroom risk being attacked or worse.
That also means you're fine with a trans man going into a girl bathroom ? Do you even know what you're talking about ? Unlike trans woman, trans man pretty much always pass, because testosterone is "stronger" as an hormone.
Well, personally I couldn't care less. But I can still see how many would be offended by a trans "man" going into a girl bathroom. There really is no need to try and shove your "I identify with my gender so now I'm female etc" into peoples faces like that. This doesn't help their cause at all.
The oppressed have no obligation to be nice to their oppressers. Sorry :c
And who's the oppressor? The majority that forces a transsexual person into an uncomfortable situation or the transsexual person that forces the majority into an uncomfortable situation? Your point of view is extremely egocentric.
There were a lot of people uncomfortable shaking the hands of black people and letting them use the same drinking fountains. We choose not to give two shits about them and end that stupid practice, because it was wrong. This is pretty similar and you will get over it.
As a black person I could now go on and say how offensive this post is etc but I don't. There are clear differences between a real women and a trans "women", being able to become a child is only one of them. Show me these differences between black and white people.
One is black and one is white. Black people also have more testosterone on average. On top of this, black people living in Africa will score lower on an IQ test on average, due to it being weighted towards western characteristics. How many differences can you name from a trans women and a "real" women.
Also, saying you could find his post offensive is really dumb, and makes no sense at all.
A trans vagina is not equivalent to a female vagina. Based on what I've read about how they give trans women vaginas, there's no way it feels the same or behaves the same. A trans female will not be 100% female. For me, even a hint of male is an immediate 100% turn off.
Maybe you should just ask people who have slept with trans woman instead of doing your "research" to find out the truth about neovaginas. Not that that would change your opinion because you could never be wrong or have a misunderstanding about something that you have no experience with (except arguing that one time on teamliquid).
Before I head off to bed, there is a lecture which I think is very good in relation to gay and lesbian rights. At this point, if I were to say that same-sex marriage should be a right, I would be preaching to the choir, but the politics of disgust has really interested me and it is something to keep in mind when addressing any argument.
On August 01 2013 06:31 Rhaegal wrote: So if I bring a woman home, who I then find out is trans, and I get mad, I'm the bad guy? Is that what the general consensus of these last few pages are? Because that seems absurd to me.
Just don't beat the shit out of her and murder her and I am sure she won't take it too hard.
How does the gender ideology reconcile "gender being a social construct" (in other words, being artificial) with "gender identity being an innate thing" (in other words, something natural, something you're born with)? While I can agree with the latter, the two of them seem mutually exclusive...
On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote: I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to.
I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances
Sorry for misreading your post. Personally if I were with a trans woman I'd want to be with the kind of trans woman who told me as a courtesy, even if she didn't think it mattered.
Would you expect a woman who had to have her genitals reconstructed due to a horrible car accident to tell you out of courtesy before she slept with you?
On August 01 2013 16:29 maybenexttime wrote: Serious question:
How does the gender ideology reconcile "gender being a social construct" (in other words, being artificial) with "gender identity being an innate thing" (in other words, something natural, something you're born with)? While I can agree with the latter, the two of them seem mutually exclusive...
Argh you kind of beat me to it. I'm ignorant (in the non-pejorative sense). I kind of believe the position that a lot of gender identity is social constructed, but from that basis my logic would ask the hypothetical question - in a world without such demarcated gender-roles would people still be transgendered?
On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote: [quote] These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference.
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people.
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late.
"After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing.
Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*.
On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote: [quote]
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie.
Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl.
It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before.
You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters.
Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier.
Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing...
I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps.
Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex.
If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not.
I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it.
Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls.
I think when it comes to hook ups, what you don't know won't hurt you. It is the risk you take when you have a one night stand, sometimes you get an STD, sometimes you sleep with someone who wasn't always a girl. Its a one night stand, no one looks to take the moral high ground during the walk of shame.
Plus you can read some horror stories about tran-girls telling guys in the interest of full disclosure and the whole event turning violent. Sometimes what you don't know won't hurt you and its better that way.
This looks like the same sort of logic which people use to convince themselves that they're actually doing their husband or wife a favor by not telling them that they are having an affair with a coworker.
To me, it seems that withholding information from someone to prevent them from making an informed decision is rather questionable.
So people should make sure to list every possible quality about themselves that someone may find negative before having sex with another person just in case that person would not want to have sex if he knew said quality?
On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote: [quote]
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people.
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late.
"After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing.
Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*.
On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote: [quote] Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie.
Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl.
It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before.
You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters.
Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier.
Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing...
I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps.
Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex.
If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not.
I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it.
Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls.
I think when it comes to hook ups, what you don't know won't hurt you. It is the risk you take when you have a one night stand, sometimes you get an STD, sometimes you sleep with someone who wasn't always a girl. Its a one night stand, no one looks to take the moral high ground during the walk of shame.
Plus you can read some horror stories about tran-girls telling guys in the interest of full disclosure and the whole event turning violent. Sometimes what you don't know won't hurt you and its better that way.
This looks like the same sort of logic which people use to convince themselves that they're actually doing their husband or wife a favor by not telling them that they are having an affair with a coworker.
To me, it seems that withholding information from someone to prevent them from making an informed decision is rather questionable.
So people should make sure to list every possible quality about themselves that someone may find negative before having sex with another person just in case that person would not want to have sex if he knew said quality?
Oh come on. Now, without wanting to disparage my current partner, I would happily go with a transgendered person, I find the 'soul' to be the attractive thing in a partner for the most part.
However, it's clearly a big deal in current society, I don't see it as unreasonable to expect disclosure.
On August 01 2013 16:29 maybenexttime wrote: Serious question:
How does the gender ideology reconcile "gender being a social construct" (in other words, being artificial) with "gender identity being an innate thing" (in other words, something natural, something you're born with)? While I can agree with the latter, the two of them seem mutually exclusive...
Little bit of column A and a little bit of column B imho. Essentialist thought is common however to rationalize people's need to be validated. In other words, to admit that some gender identity is an innate thing threatens current feminist ideology.
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late.
"After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing.
Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*.
On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote: [quote]
Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl.
It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before.
You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters.
Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier.
Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing...
I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps.
Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex.
If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not.
I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it.
Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls.
I think when it comes to hook ups, what you don't know won't hurt you. It is the risk you take when you have a one night stand, sometimes you get an STD, sometimes you sleep with someone who wasn't always a girl. Its a one night stand, no one looks to take the moral high ground during the walk of shame.
Plus you can read some horror stories about tran-girls telling guys in the interest of full disclosure and the whole event turning violent. Sometimes what you don't know won't hurt you and its better that way.
This looks like the same sort of logic which people use to convince themselves that they're actually doing their husband or wife a favor by not telling them that they are having an affair with a coworker.
To me, it seems that withholding information from someone to prevent them from making an informed decision is rather questionable.
So people should make sure to list every possible quality about themselves that someone may find negative before having sex with another person just in case that person would not want to have sex if he knew said quality?
Oh come on. Now, without wanting to disparage my current partner, I would happily go with a transgendered person, I find the 'soul' to be the attractive thing in a partner for the most part.
However, it's clearly a big deal in current society, I don't see it as unreasonable to expect disclosure.
I am arguing from a philosophical and idealistic view point. Obviously reality is shaped by everyone in the world and there are some dumb mean mfers out there. In reality, its not that hard to figure out if someone can't handle sleeping with a trans person, generally all you have to do is bring the topic up (or even anything lgbt related) and gage their reaction. So there are plenty of ways around this sex scenario and I believe that many are reasonable pathways. I do agree with Natalie Reed's blog on the issue as a whole, which was posted earlier.
On August 01 2013 04:39 fugs wrote: Being trans and mentally disabled makes reading these arguments very uncomfortable. Believe it or not, telling a trans person that they're infertile/not real/mentally challenged/disgusting/ugly is a really mean thing to do. You don't walk up to some cancer patient and point out their infertility do you? Why do so many people think it's okay to tell trans people, to their face, things you'd never tell any other individual?
Whether you believe it's 'right' or 'wrong' for me to use the bathroom I feel comfortable in, or to wear the clothes I think are cute, date the people I am attracted to is not going to stop me. Your discomfort is a product of your own design and I'm not responsible for it.
As for all the understanding people posting, thank you, I wish others were more like you.
No offence, but how is you not feeling comfortable using a bathroom dedicated for a sex you don't identify with any different from people not being comfortable with you using a bathroom they might not identify you with? I think you're being just as insensitive towards their feelings as they are towards yours. Why is that a vast majority should accommodate you and not the other way around?
This argument is so shit. Do you know why the majority of people have to accommodate a minority? Because we write it into our laws that the majority should not have tyranny over the minority. That's why we forced white Southern woman to share bathrooms with black southern woman, because those white southern women needed to sit down and learn some compassion and empathy.
While racism is acquired, implying that feeling uncomfortable in the said situation is, too, is just an unfounded assumption. We can flip the issue and say that transsexuals need to learn some compassion and empathy because they, likewise, seem to have no regard for other people's feelings (you can see that clearly from transsexuals here saying that they have absolutely no obligation to disclose that part of their identity to people they get intimate with because, apparently, it's none of their business).
On August 01 2013 16:29 maybenexttime wrote: Serious question:
How does the gender ideology reconcile "gender being a social construct" (in other words, being artificial) with "gender identity being an innate thing" (in other words, something natural, something you're born with)? While I can agree with the latter, the two of them seem mutually exclusive...
Argh you kind of beat me to it. I'm ignorant (in the non-pejorative sense). I kind of believe the position that a lot of gender identity is social constructed, but from that basis my logic would ask the hypothetical question - in a world without such demarcated gender-roles would people still be transgendered?
Its a really hard question to answer. There are gender roles, gender identity, and sex in my opinion. Gender roles are completely socially constructed. Gender identity is mostly socially constructed but I believe that their exists a biological component to gender identity that is linked to how our bodies develop towards a sex. Basically, right now, I think that most binary trans people identify with the opposite sex more than their birth sex. This biological identification with the opposite sex leads them to adopt aspects of the macro gender identity of that sex and then take on corresponding gender roles sometimes. Basically they are just like everyone else, except their brain is telling them that their sex is wrong. Obviously it gets murkier with different gender identities. A salient point is that just because something is constructed by society does not mean that it doesn't exist. We will never know what gender identities look like in a society without gender until we become a society without gender.
On August 01 2013 04:39 fugs wrote: Being trans and mentally disabled makes reading these arguments very uncomfortable. Believe it or not, telling a trans person that they're infertile/not real/mentally challenged/disgusting/ugly is a really mean thing to do. You don't walk up to some cancer patient and point out their infertility do you? Why do so many people think it's okay to tell trans people, to their face, things you'd never tell any other individual?
Whether you believe it's 'right' or 'wrong' for me to use the bathroom I feel comfortable in, or to wear the clothes I think are cute, date the people I am attracted to is not going to stop me. Your discomfort is a product of your own design and I'm not responsible for it.
As for all the understanding people posting, thank you, I wish others were more like you.
No offence, but how is you not feeling comfortable using a bathroom dedicated for a sex you don't identify with any different from people not being comfortable with you using a bathroom they might not identify you with? I think you're being just as insensitive towards their feelings as they are towards yours. Why is that a vast majority should accommodate you and not the other way around?
This argument is so shit. Do you know why the majority of people have to accommodate a minority? Because we write it into our laws that the majority should not have tyranny over the minority. That's why we forced white Southern woman to share bathrooms with black southern woman, because those white southern women needed to sit down and learn some compassion and empathy.
While racism is acquired, implying that feeling uncomfortable in the said situation is, too, is just an unfounded assumption. We can flip the issue and say that transsexuals need to learn some compassion and empathy because they, likewise, seem to have no regard for other people's feelings (you can see that clearly from transsexuals here saying that they have absolutely no obligation to disclose that part of their identity to people they get intimate with because, apparently, it's none of their business).
Should a slave have regard for the moral feelings held by his master about letting blacks roam free across the country side when he takes into account his own freedom? Yes extreme, I know. Its an analogy. Feeling justified about being wrongfully enslaved does not give the slave a moral justification for doing anything he wants to the master, but it does give him the necessary perspective judge slavery. Trans people are people and they abide by the same rules of courtesy as everyone else in society until those values conflict with their very essence and quality of life, then there is a problem.
On August 01 2013 16:29 maybenexttime wrote: Serious question:
How does the gender ideology reconcile "gender being a social construct" (in other words, being artificial) with "gender identity being an innate thing" (in other words, something natural, something you're born with)? While I can agree with the latter, the two of them seem mutually exclusive...
Argh you kind of beat me to it. I'm ignorant (in the non-pejorative sense). I kind of believe the position that a lot of gender identity is social constructed, but from that basis my logic would ask the hypothetical question - in a world without such demarcated gender-roles would people still be transgendered?
Its a really hard question to answer. There are gender roles, gender identity, and sex in my opinion. Gender roles are completely socially constructed. Gender identity is mostly socially constructed but I believe that their exists a biological component to gender identity that is linked to how our bodies develop towards a sex. Basically, right now, I think that most binary trans people identify with the opposite sex more than there own. This biological identification with the opposite sex leads them to adopt aspects of the macro gender identity of that sex and then take on corresponding gender roles sometimes. Basically they are just like everyone else, except their brain is telling them that their sex is wrong. Obviously it gets murkier with different gender identities. A salient point is that just because something is constructed by society does not mean that it doesn't exist. We will never know what gender identities look like in a society without gender until we become a society without gender.
The hard to answer questions are often the most interesting!
Good response though, there's some good discussion here in this thread.
On August 01 2013 04:39 fugs wrote: Being trans and mentally disabled makes reading these arguments very uncomfortable. Believe it or not, telling a trans person that they're infertile/not real/mentally challenged/disgusting/ugly is a really mean thing to do. You don't walk up to some cancer patient and point out their infertility do you? Why do so many people think it's okay to tell trans people, to their face, things you'd never tell any other individual?
Whether you believe it's 'right' or 'wrong' for me to use the bathroom I feel comfortable in, or to wear the clothes I think are cute, date the people I am attracted to is not going to stop me. Your discomfort is a product of your own design and I'm not responsible for it.
As for all the understanding people posting, thank you, I wish others were more like you.
No offence, but how is you not feeling comfortable using a bathroom dedicated for a sex you don't identify with any different from people not being comfortable with you using a bathroom they might not identify you with? I think you're being just as insensitive towards their feelings as they are towards yours. Why is that a vast majority should accommodate you and not the other way around?
This argument is so shit. Do you know why the majority of people have to accommodate a minority? Because we write it into our laws that the majority should not have tyranny over the minority. That's why we forced white Southern woman to share bathrooms with black southern woman, because those white southern women needed to sit down and learn some compassion and empathy.
While racism is acquired, implying that feeling uncomfortable in the said situation is, too, is just an unfounded assumption. We can flip the issue and say that transsexuals need to learn some compassion and empathy because they, likewise, seem to have no regard for other people's feelings (you can see that clearly from transsexuals here saying that they have absolutely no obligation to disclose that part of their identity to people they get intimate with because, apparently, it's none of their business).
Should a slave have regard for the moral feelings held by his master about letting blacks roam free across the country side when he takes into account his own freedom? Yes extreme, I know. Its an analogy. Feeling justified about being wrongfully enslaved does not give the slave a moral justification for doing anything he wants to the master, but it does give him the necessary perspective judge slavery. Trans people are people and they abide by the same rules of courtesy as everyone else in society until those values conflict with their very essence and quality of life, then there is a problem.
Like I said, racism is acquired. Your analogy hinges on the assumption that feeling uncomfortable in the said situation is also acquired. What if it's as innate as the transsexual's identity?
So, since I just woke up I figured I'd go through and quote a bunch of people then reply when I'd read everything. This might be a long post.
On August 01 2013 11:44 KnowNothing wrote: DISCLAIMER: I know that my views will be seen as radical, wrongly discriminatory, ignorant, insensitive and offensive by some, but I bring them to this discussion honestly and have no intention of any sort of harassment or abuse nor to engage in some kind of text fight with anyone. Please keep this in mind and I will attempt to open my mind to any response. I admit up front that I find the concept of gender alteration hard to accept despite my support for other groups usually discriminated against. My question:
What is the limit to which a person can define themselves vis-a-vis sexuality? If it were feasible, would it be acceptable for me to surgically attach, for example, an additional penis to my pelvis? Does it matter whether that penis is made from my own cells? What if I preferred instead to have it, or perhaps several of them attached to my chest and elsewhere? Does it matter if this result could be achieved through the use of drugs rather than surgery? Would I have a sound argument to be free from any discrimination against my person based on what I termed my sexuality, as such?
Because my instinctive response to this is that a person's sexuality is largely defined by their "natural" physical gender. Another portion of sexuality is mental. The mental side fluctuates inherently, but altering the physical part of things, while not out of the question, is obviously not natural, that is to say it's impossible without medical science. Since gender exists as part of the basis of a person's physical nature, altering gender would mean a kind of "artificial nature", which is a paradoxical concept. As such, the gender of an individual must be a description of their physical nature and thus no person can actually alter their gender under this definition.
I believe this is roughly the feeling of many who are not entirely certain where they stand with respect to transgendered individuals. Maybe it's too difficult to explain where you disagree with me, but simply have feelings which convince you otherwise, which is sufficient justification for you to live as you see fit, but for me and for others who haven't experienced the same, is there any insight you can offer into your disagreement with this view?
I think gender alteration is the hardest bit for most people, because they've never really had to think about their gender they just are who they are and so changing gender feels to be impossible. I would actually agree that it is though, I have no way to change my gender. I've always been a girl but I learnt I had to pretend to be a boy, which over time got increasingly depressing, to the point I had to do something about it. As an example, around 5 in school I refused to sit in the 'boy' group after I first started attending and we were doing something or other where we had to split up (I ended up sitting near the girls in the boy group). This is something that exists far before sexual orientation.
There's actually a reasonably good (though quite old now) US news documentary thing on trans children if you're interested. It's not relevant to this discussion but does show that this is something which is often apparent very early in life. I don't think this is true for all trans people, but it certainly is for at least some.
It's important to recognise the difference between gender and sex though. A body has sex-traits while a mind has gender-traits. It is impossible to determine someone's gender from their sex, it's just fortunate that they're usually the same. A man is always a man regardless of what you do to his body, his core identity won't change. He can do everything women do and he'll still be a man. Likewise, the opposite is true for a woman. But, if you start the other way around with a woman in a male body, she will still always be a woman regardless of what is done to her body and how she acts.
So far as I'm aware it is impossible to change someone's gender. The best we can do is to change sex to align with it, which is extremely important because everything feels wrong when the two don't align and it's the most horrible thing I know of. It feels like your body is working against you and that you're never going to be able to have a real relationship with someone because they're never going to see you. You're invisible, you just pretend to be someone else and...
...I don't know what you do after that. I would be dead if I hadn't transitioned.
On August 01 2013 13:12 fluidin wrote: Hmmm, just putting it out here (not being anti-LBGT or whatever, but Christ, proponents of LBGT everything are so vocal nowadays that one actually feels like he has to insert disclaimers in their posts).
If, one day, medical procedure is so advanced that instead of current transgender ops, a medical procedure to change one's mental identity to suit their natural physical body is safe and easily available, what then? This is assuming that only thoughts regarding gender identity are changed.
Would this be considered more immoral/ethically wrong than current transgender ops?
I would never change my identity, I'd rather risk having my body killed and my braincut out and implanted in to a female clone or something than be someone else. If I'm someone else, *I* am essentially dead.
On August 01 2013 15:11 Wombat_NI wrote: Speaking of the idea of being under an umbrella, do LGBT people like being a 'community' or what? Is it a necessary evil to achieve goals, or something that you value, being part of a wider collective? I've tried to articulate my thoughts to others, but I hate a subsection of my identity defining me in certain ways. It's not exactly an equally important issue, but I love my metal music, yet I hate being called a 'metaller' or expected to act in certain ways.
I tend to avoid the LGBT community IRL except for when doing something activist(y). I don't want to be trans, that was never the goal it was just the necessary evil to be able to be myself, so it's something I try to just leave behind me now I can be me. The community in general though is extremely useful to trans rights, and without the LGB side of it, trans people would basically be such a tiny minority that no one would care.
On August 01 2013 11:10 Arkless wrote: Ok, guys. I have a question. That may be considered "ignorant" But it is a genuine question that I don't get. And hopefully someone here could clarify it for me. But I would like to preface, that I am a straight male. And have 0 problems with gay,lesbian,bi, or transgender people. I honestly give 0 fucks as what some one does to be happy. So in other words, if you're gay. That's cool, it doesn't bother me. Also, I must preface this facet specifically, and will be using caps.
I HAVE 0 PROBLEMS WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS CHANGED THERE GENDER, TO WHAT THEY FEEL THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN BORN AS. IF IT MAKES THEM HAPPY, GIVE'R
I repeat!! ^^^^read that again.
Now, here is the possible "ignorant" question. But it is an honest, genuine question. So please don't take this as any form of an attack from me, and please don't flame the shit out of me. I feel any question should be able to be asked, if it's sincere. And would love actual responses from actual LGBT ppl.
But whyyyyyyyyyyyy are transgenders lumped into the same category as gay, lesbian, and bi? I don't understand this. As far as I am concerned, your sexual preference has nothing to do with your gender. You like, what you like. But becoming a transgender is an actual medical procedure, that has nothing to do with being gay, bi , or lesbian. Am I missing something? Could someone please educate me on that facet of LGBT.
Once again, this is from a place of curiosity, not hate. =)
Kisses, hugs, and belly rubs to all!
You're completely correct, but it's mostly a numbers thing. There are LGBT groups in colleges for instance, can you imagine a T group? There'd be maybe one person with no where safe to go. There are some cross over issues, and when I say I'm straight people immediately wonder if that means I'm gay, and so I can actually experience homophobia as a straight person. When I got attacked in a police station shortly after transitioning (which the police a feet away ignored) there were probably more homophobic comments that transphobic ones, for instance. I imagine that's because they're easier and more numerous, but you get the idea. If homophobia is tackled, transitioning would probably be easier.
The whole LGB or LGBT or LGBTQ++++ and whatever always seemed a weird thing to me. It seems to generally function as a "non-straight" umbrella. I have little in common with tonnes of people under this umbrella, other than the propensity to be discriminated against. Which isn't really how I view myself anyway. Like, a lesbian has less in common with me in many ways than she does with a straight man, and yet we're tightly bound together in this all-encompassing thingymajiggy.
I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles.
These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference.
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people.
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late.
"After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing.
Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*.
On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote: [quote]
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people.
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie.
Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl.
It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before.
You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters.
Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier.
Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing...
I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps.
Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex.
If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not.
I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it.
Wow. I'm curious if there is anyone else who sees this as moral behavior. This is pretty damn deceptive and I'd be furious if someone didn't tell me ahead of time.
Why's it so deceptive? Why does it even matter? What do you want, a resume for a one night stand? Why am I such a horrible person for it? Why is it worse to hide this than it is for a guy to beat the living shit out of me when I tell him? I just want to know why you think it's such a horrible act, I know it's not great but it's certainly not as bad as you're making it sound right?
I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles.
These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference.
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people.
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
I do thing about both sides. Life is shitty, don't know what to say really. I understand that the life of a trans gen must be rough with family, social life, sex, dating etc. not to mention violence, and the difficulty of trying to determine who you are.
But that doesn't excuse you not telling me. Its deceiving. As rough as it sounds, it was something you agreed to when making the life decision. I want to know if im with a trans gen, even if its only a single date. And I know a lot of other people would love that information. Its something everybody have to deal with.
Its not alright for you to keep ripping up in your past history. Its not alright for us to suddenly know we have been with a trans gen, after its too late.
"After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing.
Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*.
On August 01 2013 07:38 KwarK wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:27 fugs wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:
On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote: [quote]
C'mon. You know what the means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people.
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie.
Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl.
It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before.
You do not get to make the decision regarding whether someone else needs to know something that will alter their consent to sex. I think trans women are in an awful position here but I also think that consent is really important and in this case there is a huge disparity between information which stops it being informed consent. Your assumptions about them will most likely be true because most people are not statistical outliers. However you know that you are a statistical outlier and that their assumption that you are a cis-woman is not correct. If you have reason to believe that this will alter their decision to have sex with you and do not tell them then you are dismissing their right to consent because you don't think it matters.
Deciding you know better and that they don't need informed consent isn't right. And it sucks that the onus is on you but you go into it having more information than them because you know you're a statistical outlier.
Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing...
I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps.
Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex.
If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not.
I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it.
Well maybe you shouldnt have one night stands then? I get that you want to do whatever anyone else does, but your whole reasoning sounds extremely egocentric to be honest.
Egocentric? Why am I such a horrible person all of the sudden? I'm not some fucking spider waiting for a male to fuck me so I can bite his head off and suck out his organs. It's sex, just sex. There's no strings attached that's the point.
I havent said youre a horrible person, I said your way of reasoning is extremely egocentric. Why? Because you want to have people respect and at the very least tolerate your lifechoices all while you have no respect or tolerance for others. If someone else finds out afterwards and feels bad about it, hey thats their problem right because theyre just "thinking wrong" because "hey its just sex". Ie youre being egocentric as fuck.
Im half jewish, and while I have zero understanding for neonazism as an ideology I still would consider it immoral of me to have a ons with a hot nazi-chick all while knowing she wouldnt want to have sex with me if she knew I was half jewish. Its called false pretence, and its not canelled out just because the other persons having "stupid" opinions or beliefs. Its still a violation of their personal space. Two wrongs dont make a right.
EPT
Despite the fact that under their models you know, being the dominant group in society means we'd kind of be useful to get on board.
I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
