"After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing.
Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*.
[quote]
Personally I won't. If it's just sex I'm not taking the risk. And for the record I have tried those creepy trans dating sites (where guys look for trans women) and that was just the worst thing...
I don't know... i'm only a bad person because of society's ignorance right? I might be basing this on fairness but it's where I personally stand on the whole situation. We're both better off in the end keeping it under wraps.
Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex.
If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not.
I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it.
Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls.
Yeah but when a guy pretends to be some famous person to get laid all his bar buddies give him a high five. What do I get if they find out? A beating. :/
The kind of guy who pretends he's famous to get pussy and his buddies high five him is a pretty deplorable human being as are his friends. That's not behavior any respectable person is going to get behind.
There's a difference between little white lies one might tell a stranger and completely making shit up or knowingly withholding information you know is a deal breaker.
Now obviously getting beaten for being yourself isn't cool, neither is lying or withholding information. I guess I've never been in your shoes but maybe there's an issue with approaching the wrong kind of person if their first reaction is assault. If I'm at the bar, we're talking and having fun and end up hooking up and I find out after the fact I'm going to most likely be upset, as is my right. Now if I'm at the bar and we're talking and having fun and you tell me before we're probably not going to hook up, but at the end of the day no one is lied to, feels betrayed, or upset, and maybe you make a friend and I'll be your wingman to get you a different hookup.
Or she just does not tell you, you hook up and you are never the wiser. Everyone is a winner.
If I sleep with a girl without telling her I'm married, and my wife never finds out, then I guess all three of us are winners, right?
That's down to your conscience. A married guy has a commitment to his wife not to sleep with other women. A trans girl does not have a commitment to a third party to divulge that she is trans.
It can hardly be down to my conscience whether my wife and the girl are winners too. Congratulations on dodging the question though.
If it's just about formal commitments: I have no obligation to tell a girl I might be dating that I'm married - not even if it starts getting serious. It still seems like the sort of thing she deserves to know, and it seems like the sort of thing I should tell upfront without her having to interrogate me. Do you disagree with this?
It's a difficult analogy for me as I am not married. To me the married guy should disclose it (but in reality would probably not) and the trans should not. The married guy is being immoral by wanting to have sex with a stranger. A trans is not being immoral by wanting to have sex.
Also, being married comes with a lot of baggage. There is no baggage with being trans until you get serious enough to start thinking about children.
"After it's too late"? Transgenderism isn't a disease, it's not life threatening (to you), and it has no effect on you. If it's just a fling there's no reason to bring it up. Now if someone has Aids or something yeah, that's risking YOUR life so it's absolutely necessary to tell you but being trans isn't the same thing.
Now in a long term relationship sure, being trans is a huge part of our past and if he's willing to listen I'll go on and on bitching about it. 'Cuz back in my day we had to wear gaffs and wax our faces and blah blah blah. But you're the one assuming everyone's cisgender (Born the sex they identify as) not us. If I have to tell every person I date about my medical history they all have to tell me if they're transphobic first because I will not be caught dating one of THOSE people *yuck*.
There is a disparity of information and of reasonable assumptions here. It is a reasonable assumption for someone to assume another person is cis, not because cis people matter more but because we're a vast, vast majority. Your argument is predicated on it being reasonable to expect everyone to establish whether or not everyone else is cisgender before sex, despite the assumption being correct the vast, vast majority of the time. It is not reasonable. Trans people know when the assumptions are wrong because they are the minority, they have the information. Also a fling doesn't change the importance of consent.
Does that imply its reasonable to assume that being a trans person is a deal breaker for most people? thats sad.
Maybe not most but certainly a significant number. Have you not read this topic?
yeah i have but to spell it out all logically like that and ask people to accept it is note-worthily sad imo.
Honesty is critical in all relationships, including transgender ones. No one envies the position and its sucks, but at the end of they no one wants to be with someone that withholds information from them.
I wasn't talking about relationships i was talking about criteria of disclosure for consent
Yeah, that is a personal call if it comes to one night stands and so on. If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out, but you know that. I also know there is good reason to do so, including the threat of violence. I don't envy your position at all.
So like...did you actually read Scarlett's article that she posted? It's not even remotely the responsibility of the trans woman to disclose that she's trans. If someone has a hangup about sex or a list of deal breakers, the onus is on them to ask about them.
That's why I said it was a personal call and express sympathy for the situation. I don't have that make that choice and I won't judge other peoples decision. You should read the rest of that discussion, rather than be aggressive towards people just because you think are expressing things the way you want.
I did read the rest of the discussion. I'm not being aggressive at all. "If you withhold the information, don't expect a positive response if they find out" sounds like you're placing blame on the trans woman. Yes, it's a personal call...how the other person would find out unless she told herself is beyond me.
On August 01 2013 07:52 TheRealArtemis wrote: [quote]
Please don't deliberately misunderstand what I wrote in some attempt to be hostile against me. What I said "after its too late" its clearly I meant after the two people have either engaged in a relationship and/or have had sex.
If you think it doesn't matter for you to disclose that information, well there isn't much I can do about it. Its just not being honest, and you are forcing people to agree to something without knowing a crucial part of your past, which they most likely want to know about. Regardless of its a fling or not.
I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it.
Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls.
Yeah but when a guy pretends to be some famous person to get laid all his bar buddies give him a high five. What do I get if they find out? A beating. :/
The kind of guy who pretends he's famous to get pussy and his buddies high five him is a pretty deplorable human being as are his friends. That's not behavior any respectable person is going to get behind.
There's a difference between little white lies one might tell a stranger and completely making shit up or knowingly withholding information you know is a deal breaker.
Now obviously getting beaten for being yourself isn't cool, neither is lying or withholding information. I guess I've never been in your shoes but maybe there's an issue with approaching the wrong kind of person if their first reaction is assault. If I'm at the bar, we're talking and having fun and end up hooking up and I find out after the fact I'm going to most likely be upset, as is my right. Now if I'm at the bar and we're talking and having fun and you tell me before we're probably not going to hook up, but at the end of the day no one is lied to, feels betrayed, or upset, and maybe you make a friend and I'll be your wingman to get you a different hookup.
Or she just does not tell you, you hook up and you are never the wiser. Everyone is a winner.
If I sleep with a girl without telling her I'm married, and my wife never finds out, then I guess all three of us are winners, right?
That's down to your conscience. A married guy has a commitment to his wife not to sleep with other women. A trans girl does not have a commitment to a third party to divulge that she is trans.
It can hardly be down to my conscience whether my wife and the girl are winners too. Congratulations on dodging the question though.
If it's just about formal commitments: I have no obligation to tell a girl I might be dating that I'm married - not even if it starts getting serious. It still seems like the sort of thing she deserves to know, and it seems like the sort of thing I should tell upfront without her having to interrogate me. Do you disagree with this?
It's a difficult analogy for me as I am not married. To me the married guy should disclose it (but in reality would probably not) and the trans should not. The married guy is being immoral by wanting to have sex with a stranger. A trans is not being immoral by wanting to have sex.
Also, being married comes with a lot of baggage. There is no baggage with being trans until you get serious enough to start thinking about children.
So - let me get this straight - if I'm married, I should inform the girl, in case she doesn't feel right about being with a married guy, whereas, if I'm transsexual, I need not inform the girl, regardless of the fact that she might not feel right about being with a transsexual? Can you explain this discrepancy?
By what standard are we measuring the amount of baggage? I thought this was relative to the values of the girl in question - for instance, being a devout Muslim might be a-okay with some girls and a problem for others. This was why I thought it might be a good idea to let the girl tally up the baggage and make her own, informed decision.
Finally, you are mixing things up. We are discussing if it might be immoral for: - a married man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's married and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was married - a transsexual man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's transsexual and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was transsexual
I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it.
Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls.
Yeah but when a guy pretends to be some famous person to get laid all his bar buddies give him a high five. What do I get if they find out? A beating. :/
The kind of guy who pretends he's famous to get pussy and his buddies high five him is a pretty deplorable human being as are his friends. That's not behavior any respectable person is going to get behind.
There's a difference between little white lies one might tell a stranger and completely making shit up or knowingly withholding information you know is a deal breaker.
Now obviously getting beaten for being yourself isn't cool, neither is lying or withholding information. I guess I've never been in your shoes but maybe there's an issue with approaching the wrong kind of person if their first reaction is assault. If I'm at the bar, we're talking and having fun and end up hooking up and I find out after the fact I'm going to most likely be upset, as is my right. Now if I'm at the bar and we're talking and having fun and you tell me before we're probably not going to hook up, but at the end of the day no one is lied to, feels betrayed, or upset, and maybe you make a friend and I'll be your wingman to get you a different hookup.
Or she just does not tell you, you hook up and you are never the wiser. Everyone is a winner.
If I sleep with a girl without telling her I'm married, and my wife never finds out, then I guess all three of us are winners, right?
That's down to your conscience. A married guy has a commitment to his wife not to sleep with other women. A trans girl does not have a commitment to a third party to divulge that she is trans.
It can hardly be down to my conscience whether my wife and the girl are winners too. Congratulations on dodging the question though.
If it's just about formal commitments: I have no obligation to tell a girl I might be dating that I'm married - not even if it starts getting serious. It still seems like the sort of thing she deserves to know, and it seems like the sort of thing I should tell upfront without her having to interrogate me. Do you disagree with this?
It's a difficult analogy for me as I am not married. To me the married guy should disclose it (but in reality would probably not) and the trans should not. The married guy is being immoral by wanting to have sex with a stranger. A trans is not being immoral by wanting to have sex.
Also, being married comes with a lot of baggage. There is no baggage with being trans until you get serious enough to start thinking about children.
So - let me get this straight - if I'm married, I should inform the girl, in case she doesn't feel right about being with a married guy, whereas, if I'm transsexual, I need not inform the girl, regardless of the fact that she might not feel right about being with a transsexual? Can you explain this discrepancy?
By what standard are we measuring the amount of baggage? I thought this was relative to the values of the girl in question - for instance, being a devout Muslim might be a-okay with some girls and a problem for others. This was why I thought it might be a good idea to let the girl tally up the baggage and make her own, informed decision.
Finally, you are mixing things up. We are discussing if it might be immoral for: - a married man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's married and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was married - a transsexual man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's transsexual and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was transsexual
Because one involves hurting a third party (the wife) while the other involves no such harm to the two consenting adults.
On August 01 2013 08:17 RockIronrod wrote: [quote] Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls.
Yeah but when a guy pretends to be some famous person to get laid all his bar buddies give him a high five. What do I get if they find out? A beating. :/
The kind of guy who pretends he's famous to get pussy and his buddies high five him is a pretty deplorable human being as are his friends. That's not behavior any respectable person is going to get behind.
There's a difference between little white lies one might tell a stranger and completely making shit up or knowingly withholding information you know is a deal breaker.
Now obviously getting beaten for being yourself isn't cool, neither is lying or withholding information. I guess I've never been in your shoes but maybe there's an issue with approaching the wrong kind of person if their first reaction is assault. If I'm at the bar, we're talking and having fun and end up hooking up and I find out after the fact I'm going to most likely be upset, as is my right. Now if I'm at the bar and we're talking and having fun and you tell me before we're probably not going to hook up, but at the end of the day no one is lied to, feels betrayed, or upset, and maybe you make a friend and I'll be your wingman to get you a different hookup.
Or she just does not tell you, you hook up and you are never the wiser. Everyone is a winner.
If I sleep with a girl without telling her I'm married, and my wife never finds out, then I guess all three of us are winners, right?
That's down to your conscience. A married guy has a commitment to his wife not to sleep with other women. A trans girl does not have a commitment to a third party to divulge that she is trans.
It can hardly be down to my conscience whether my wife and the girl are winners too. Congratulations on dodging the question though.
If it's just about formal commitments: I have no obligation to tell a girl I might be dating that I'm married - not even if it starts getting serious. It still seems like the sort of thing she deserves to know, and it seems like the sort of thing I should tell upfront without her having to interrogate me. Do you disagree with this?
It's a difficult analogy for me as I am not married. To me the married guy should disclose it (but in reality would probably not) and the trans should not. The married guy is being immoral by wanting to have sex with a stranger. A trans is not being immoral by wanting to have sex.
Also, being married comes with a lot of baggage. There is no baggage with being trans until you get serious enough to start thinking about children.
So - let me get this straight - if I'm married, I should inform the girl, in case she doesn't feel right about being with a married guy, whereas, if I'm transsexual, I need not inform the girl, regardless of the fact that she might not feel right about being with a transsexual? Can you explain this discrepancy?
By what standard are we measuring the amount of baggage? I thought this was relative to the values of the girl in question - for instance, being a devout Muslim might be a-okay with some girls and a problem for others. This was why I thought it might be a good idea to let the girl tally up the baggage and make her own, informed decision.
Finally, you are mixing things up. We are discussing if it might be immoral for: - a married man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's married and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was married - a transsexual man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's transsexual and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was transsexual
Because one involves hurting a third party (the wife) while the other involves no such harm to the two consenting adults.
Read the whole exchange. The hypothetical wife never finds out, which some posts ago apparently meant she couldn't possibly be harmed.
I didn't mean for it to sound hostile I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
I don't know, but I'm not going to tell some random guy I'm screwing for a night about one of the worst experiences of my life just to have him freak out on me. I've had enough people freak out on me for it.
Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls.
Yeah but when a guy pretends to be some famous person to get laid all his bar buddies give him a high five. What do I get if they find out? A beating. :/
The kind of guy who pretends he's famous to get pussy and his buddies high five him is a pretty deplorable human being as are his friends. That's not behavior any respectable person is going to get behind.
There's a difference between little white lies one might tell a stranger and completely making shit up or knowingly withholding information you know is a deal breaker.
Now obviously getting beaten for being yourself isn't cool, neither is lying or withholding information. I guess I've never been in your shoes but maybe there's an issue with approaching the wrong kind of person if their first reaction is assault. If I'm at the bar, we're talking and having fun and end up hooking up and I find out after the fact I'm going to most likely be upset, as is my right. Now if I'm at the bar and we're talking and having fun and you tell me before we're probably not going to hook up, but at the end of the day no one is lied to, feels betrayed, or upset, and maybe you make a friend and I'll be your wingman to get you a different hookup.
Or she just does not tell you, you hook up and you are never the wiser. Everyone is a winner.
If I sleep with a girl without telling her I'm married, and my wife never finds out, then I guess all three of us are winners, right?
That's down to your conscience. A married guy has a commitment to his wife not to sleep with other women. A trans girl does not have a commitment to a third party to divulge that she is trans.
It can hardly be down to my conscience whether my wife and the girl are winners too. Congratulations on dodging the question though.
If it's just about formal commitments: I have no obligation to tell a girl I might be dating that I'm married - not even if it starts getting serious. It still seems like the sort of thing she deserves to know, and it seems like the sort of thing I should tell upfront without her having to interrogate me. Do you disagree with this?
It's a difficult analogy for me as I am not married. To me the married guy should disclose it (but in reality would probably not) and the trans should not. The married guy is being immoral by wanting to have sex with a stranger. A trans is not being immoral by wanting to have sex.
Also, being married comes with a lot of baggage. There is no baggage with being trans until you get serious enough to start thinking about children.
So - let me get this straight - if I'm married, I should inform the girl, in case she doesn't feel right about being with a married guy, whereas, if I'm transsexual, I need not inform the girl, regardless of the fact that she might not feel right about being with a transsexual? Can you explain this discrepancy?
By what standard are we measuring the amount of baggage? I thought this was relative to the values of the girl in question - for instance, being a devout Muslim might be a-okay with some girls and a problem for others. This was why I thought it might be a good idea to let the girl tally up the baggage and make her own, informed decision.
Finally, you are mixing things up. We are discussing if it might be immoral for: - a married man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's married and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was married - a transsexual man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's transsexual and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was transsexual
The married man has more choices. He can choose to have sex with his wife instead of another woman. He can potentially choose to end his marriage. The trans man does not have these choices.
Being a devout muslim would greatly change how you lived your life where as I presume being a transsexual would not.
I think that your analogies are bad. A better analogy is should a guy disclose that he dyes his naturally grey hair in case a women does not like men with grey hair. Personally, if the women cannot tell that the hair is grey I do not think the man has a duty to disclose it up front.
On August 01 2013 08:17 RockIronrod wrote: [quote] Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls.
Yeah but when a guy pretends to be some famous person to get laid all his bar buddies give him a high five. What do I get if they find out? A beating. :/
The kind of guy who pretends he's famous to get pussy and his buddies high five him is a pretty deplorable human being as are his friends. That's not behavior any respectable person is going to get behind.
There's a difference between little white lies one might tell a stranger and completely making shit up or knowingly withholding information you know is a deal breaker.
Now obviously getting beaten for being yourself isn't cool, neither is lying or withholding information. I guess I've never been in your shoes but maybe there's an issue with approaching the wrong kind of person if their first reaction is assault. If I'm at the bar, we're talking and having fun and end up hooking up and I find out after the fact I'm going to most likely be upset, as is my right. Now if I'm at the bar and we're talking and having fun and you tell me before we're probably not going to hook up, but at the end of the day no one is lied to, feels betrayed, or upset, and maybe you make a friend and I'll be your wingman to get you a different hookup.
Or she just does not tell you, you hook up and you are never the wiser. Everyone is a winner.
If I sleep with a girl without telling her I'm married, and my wife never finds out, then I guess all three of us are winners, right?
That's down to your conscience. A married guy has a commitment to his wife not to sleep with other women. A trans girl does not have a commitment to a third party to divulge that she is trans.
It can hardly be down to my conscience whether my wife and the girl are winners too. Congratulations on dodging the question though.
If it's just about formal commitments: I have no obligation to tell a girl I might be dating that I'm married - not even if it starts getting serious. It still seems like the sort of thing she deserves to know, and it seems like the sort of thing I should tell upfront without her having to interrogate me. Do you disagree with this?
It's a difficult analogy for me as I am not married. To me the married guy should disclose it (but in reality would probably not) and the trans should not. The married guy is being immoral by wanting to have sex with a stranger. A trans is not being immoral by wanting to have sex.
Also, being married comes with a lot of baggage. There is no baggage with being trans until you get serious enough to start thinking about children.
So - let me get this straight - if I'm married, I should inform the girl, in case she doesn't feel right about being with a married guy, whereas, if I'm transsexual, I need not inform the girl, regardless of the fact that she might not feel right about being with a transsexual? Can you explain this discrepancy?
By what standard are we measuring the amount of baggage? I thought this was relative to the values of the girl in question - for instance, being a devout Muslim might be a-okay with some girls and a problem for others. This was why I thought it might be a good idea to let the girl tally up the baggage and make her own, informed decision.
Finally, you are mixing things up. We are discussing if it might be immoral for: - a married man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's married and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was married - a transsexual man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's transsexual and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was transsexual
The married man has more choices. He can choose to have sex with his wife instead of another woman. He can potentially choose to end his marriage. The trans man does not have these choices.
Being a devout muslim would greatly change how you lived your life where as I presume being a transsexual would not.
I think that your analogies are bad. A better analogy is should a guy disclose that he dyes his naturally grey hair in case a women does not like men with grey hair. Personally, if the women cannot tell that the hair is grey I do not think the man has a duty to disclose it up front.
I didn't know the number of choices was what mattered - it would have been a lot easier if you made this clear four posts ago. So, if my whole torso and back is a mess of horrendous scars from when I was trapped in a burning building - which would scare away the majority of women - then I don't have to make this known in advance?
Furthermore, my analogies are bad, whereas yours are spot on - where you have substituted transsexuality, something many people consider to be a deal breaker, with the triviality of dyed hair, which I would be mightily surprised if anybody could manage to care about if they tried.
On August 01 2013 08:17 RockIronrod wrote: [quote] Deliberately and knowingly deceiving someone on a subject that you know will affect their willingness to have sex with you just to get laid easier it utterly reprehensible in my opinion. I understand that trans people do have it harder, but this is no different than pretending to be a famous director to pick up girls.
Yeah but when a guy pretends to be some famous person to get laid all his bar buddies give him a high five. What do I get if they find out? A beating. :/
The kind of guy who pretends he's famous to get pussy and his buddies high five him is a pretty deplorable human being as are his friends. That's not behavior any respectable person is going to get behind.
There's a difference between little white lies one might tell a stranger and completely making shit up or knowingly withholding information you know is a deal breaker.
Now obviously getting beaten for being yourself isn't cool, neither is lying or withholding information. I guess I've never been in your shoes but maybe there's an issue with approaching the wrong kind of person if their first reaction is assault. If I'm at the bar, we're talking and having fun and end up hooking up and I find out after the fact I'm going to most likely be upset, as is my right. Now if I'm at the bar and we're talking and having fun and you tell me before we're probably not going to hook up, but at the end of the day no one is lied to, feels betrayed, or upset, and maybe you make a friend and I'll be your wingman to get you a different hookup.
Or she just does not tell you, you hook up and you are never the wiser. Everyone is a winner.
If I sleep with a girl without telling her I'm married, and my wife never finds out, then I guess all three of us are winners, right?
That's down to your conscience. A married guy has a commitment to his wife not to sleep with other women. A trans girl does not have a commitment to a third party to divulge that she is trans.
It can hardly be down to my conscience whether my wife and the girl are winners too. Congratulations on dodging the question though.
If it's just about formal commitments: I have no obligation to tell a girl I might be dating that I'm married - not even if it starts getting serious. It still seems like the sort of thing she deserves to know, and it seems like the sort of thing I should tell upfront without her having to interrogate me. Do you disagree with this?
It's a difficult analogy for me as I am not married. To me the married guy should disclose it (but in reality would probably not) and the trans should not. The married guy is being immoral by wanting to have sex with a stranger. A trans is not being immoral by wanting to have sex.
Also, being married comes with a lot of baggage. There is no baggage with being trans until you get serious enough to start thinking about children.
So - let me get this straight - if I'm married, I should inform the girl, in case she doesn't feel right about being with a married guy, whereas, if I'm transsexual, I need not inform the girl, regardless of the fact that she might not feel right about being with a transsexual? Can you explain this discrepancy?
By what standard are we measuring the amount of baggage? I thought this was relative to the values of the girl in question - for instance, being a devout Muslim might be a-okay with some girls and a problem for others. This was why I thought it might be a good idea to let the girl tally up the baggage and make her own, informed decision.
Finally, you are mixing things up. We are discussing if it might be immoral for: - a married man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's married and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was married - a transsexual man to have sex with a girl who doesn't know he's transsexual and might not have wanted to have sex if she had known that he was transsexual
The married man has more choices. He can choose to have sex with his wife instead of another woman. He can potentially choose to end his marriage. The trans man does not have these choices.
Being a devout muslim would greatly change how you lived your life where as I presume being a transsexual would not.
I think that your analogies are bad. A better analogy is should a guy disclose that he dyes his naturally grey hair in case a women does not like men with grey hair. Personally, if the women cannot tell that the hair is grey I do not think the man has a duty to disclose it up front.
I think all your guys' analogies are just pretty idiotic, and moot. There is nothing to compare it to, because it's a unique situation. And your analogies are becoming so grey, it's now a pointless convo.
Like, are you really going to say a 40yr old dying his hair, and a transgender person disclosing the info are comparable by any means? Cmon.......
The whole point is that what is a deal breaker for one person is not a deal breaker for another person. There is no way to know what is and is not a deal breaker unless you spend a great deal of time getting to know each other.
Basically I think your opinion is influenced on the fact that you are personally disgusted by the idea of sleeping with someone who was born a man. If you did care about grey hair then you would feel the same about that. It is not for you to judge what is a deal breaker for one person or another.
DISCLAIMER: I know that my views will be seen as radical, wrongly discriminatory, ignorant, insensitive and offensive by some, but I bring them to this discussion honestly and have no intention of any sort of harassment or abuse nor to engage in some kind of text fight with anyone. Please keep this in mind and I will attempt to open my mind to any response. I admit up front that I find the concept of gender alteration hard to accept despite my support for other groups usually discriminated against. My question:
What is the limit to which a person can define themselves vis-a-vis sexuality? If it were feasible, would it be acceptable for me to surgically attach, for example, an additional penis to my pelvis? Does it matter whether that penis is made from my own cells? What if I preferred instead to have it, or perhaps several of them attached to my chest and elsewhere? Does it matter if this result could be achieved through the use of drugs rather than surgery? Would I have a sound argument to be free from any discrimination against my person based on what I termed my sexuality, as such?
Because my instinctive response to this is that a person's sexuality is largely defined by their "natural" physical gender. Another portion of sexuality is mental. The mental side fluctuates inherently, but altering the physical part of things, while not out of the question, is obviously not natural, that is to say it's impossible without medical science. Since gender exists as part of the basis of a person's physical nature, altering gender would mean a kind of "artificial nature", which is a paradoxical concept. As such, the gender of an individual must be a description of their physical nature and thus no person can actually alter their gender under this definition.
I believe this is roughly the feeling of many who are not entirely certain where they stand with respect to transgendered individuals. Maybe it's too difficult to explain where you disagree with me, but simply have feelings which convince you otherwise, which is sufficient justification for you to live as you see fit, but for me and for others who haven't experienced the same, is there any insight you can offer into your disagreement with this view?
On August 01 2013 11:42 hzflank wrote: The whole point is that what is a deal breaker for one person is not a deal breaker for another person. There is no way to know what is and is not a deal breaker unless you spend a great deal of time getting to know each other.
Basically I think your opinion is influenced on the fact that you are personally disgusted by the idea of sleeping with someone who was born a man. If you did care about grey hair then you would feel the same about that. It is not for you to judge what is a deal breaker for one person or another.
You are entirely right that people differ in what they care about. These differences are the reason that it's a great idea to let them know, so they can exercise their own judgement. Remember, I have been speaking in favor of letting your partners make informed decisions instead of leaving them in ignorance.
You are completely wrong, though, to claim that it is impossible to know in advance. The two particulars about transsexuality are: 1) It is relatively uncommon, so it's a lot more efficient for transsexuals to inform than for everybody to ask everybody 2) It is something many people feel strongly about, as has been reported in this very thread. People are also talking about the prevalence of transphobia in this thread, which should serve as an indication that there are a significant number of people for whom this is a deal breaker
Dyed hair passes the first test of being uncommon, but to my knowledge this isn't something people feel strongly about. If you replace dyed hair with a full wig though, I'm more inclined to agree.
Finally, I really cannot see why you feel entitled to speculate about my motivations. If you want to know what I think about something, ask a question, and I will provide the actual answer instead of your baseless speculations.
I haven't posted on this site in forever, but I think that Zinnia Jones can settle the most recent discussion. Frankly, being a trans woman who has the (dis)pleasure of getting to watch these discussions take place gets old real quick:
I'm not sure what the particular rules of the thread are, but here's a couple of her videos that lay it out pretty succinctly:
On August 01 2013 11:44 KnowNothing wrote: DISCLAIMER: I know that my views will be seen as radical, wrongly discriminatory, ignorant, insensitive and offensive by some, but I bring them to this discussion honestly and have no intention of any sort of harassment or abuse nor to engage in some kind of text fight with anyone. Please keep this in mind and I will attempt to open my mind to any response. I admit up front that I find the concept of gender alteration hard to accept despite my support for other groups usually discriminated against. My question:
What is the limit to which a person can define themselves vis-a-vis sexuality? If it were feasible, would it be acceptable for me to surgically attach, for example, an additional penis to my pelvis? Does it matter whether that penis is made from my own cells? What if I preferred instead to have it, or perhaps several of them attached to my chest and elsewhere? Does it matter if this result could be achieved through the use of drugs rather than surgery? Would I have a sound argument to be free from any discrimination against my person based on what I termed my sexuality, as such?
Because my instinctive response to this is that a person's sexuality is largely defined by their "natural" physical gender. Another portion of sexuality is mental. The mental side fluctuates inherently, but altering the physical part of things, while not out of the question, is obviously not natural, that is to say it's impossible without medical science. Since gender exists as part of the basis of a person's physical nature, altering gender would mean a kind of "artificial nature", which is a paradoxical concept. As such, the gender of an individual must be a description of their physical nature and thus no person can actually alter their gender under this definition.
I believe this is roughly the feeling of many who are not entirely certain where they stand with respect to transgendered individuals. Maybe it's too difficult to explain where you disagree with me, but simply have feelings which convince you otherwise, which is sufficient justification for you to live as you see fit, but for me and for others who haven't experienced the same, is there any insight you can offer into your disagreement with this view?
I'm not sure how to properly respond, but I'll try anyway.
So, it's important to understand that being transgender is not a fantasy or merely a sexual thing. It is about your identity. Thing is, my gender is and was always the same. I always had a feminine identity even though I was born male looking. From my perspective, my gender never changed, I just went through a female puberty later in life.
What mostly led me to transition is to get rid of gender dysphoria, the feeling your gender identity and body does not match. Gender dysphoria basically make you feel like shit, lead to depression and too often to suicide. (suicide rate among transgender are extremely high). For me, transitioning was also a cure to gender dysphoria. It allowed me to finally be myself and feels like I could live. Of course, surgery and hormone replacement aren't natural treatment, but neither is most of the treatment made possible with modern medicine and science.
In the example you give, it is very unlikely that a person could have a distress so hard to have such peculiar needs that isn't merely a fantasy, though I do not think it is up to me to decide.
Your gender is defined by your brain. If you were to get rid of all your physical male characteristic, chance are you would most likely still identify as male. Or let say your brain get transplanted into a robot. Do you still identify as a man ? I think the answer is yes, in my case, I would still identify as female, because being one is an extremely important part of my life and my identity.
Gender and sex are two different thing. For instance, it is possible for a person to be born XX, but still be male. Or it is possible to be born intersex, which is sometime almost impossible to classify as exclusively male or female.
Of course, your physical attribute are also very important and they also to some extend define yourself, this is why we need hormone replacement and sometime surgery.
On August 01 2013 12:09 RaspberrySC2 wrote: I haven't posted on this site in forever, but I think that Zinnia Jones can settle the most recent discussion. Frankly, being a trans woman who has the (dis)pleasure of getting to watch these discussions take place gets old real quick:
I'm not sure what the particular rules of the thread are, but here's a couple of her videos that lay it out pretty succinctly:
Thanks a lot for dumping fifteen minutes - super succinct - which is nothing but a repeat of the arguments which have been made time and time again in this thread.
On August 01 2013 12:09 RaspberrySC2 wrote: I haven't posted on this site in forever, but I think that Zinnia Jones can settle the most recent discussion. Frankly, being a trans woman who has the (dis)pleasure of getting to watch these discussions take place gets old real quick:
I'm not sure what the particular rules of the thread are, but here's a couple of her videos that lay it out pretty succinctly:
Thanks a lot for dumping fifteen minutes - super succinct - which is nothing but a repeat of the arguments which have been made time and time again in this thread.
You're welcome. Maybe some people in here will finally actually get it.
Hmmm, just putting it out here (not being anti-LBGT or whatever, but Christ, proponents of LBGT everything are so vocal nowadays that one actually feels like he has to insert disclaimers in their posts).
If, one day, medical procedure is so advanced that instead of current transgender ops, a medical procedure to change one's mental identity to suit their natural physical body is safe and easily available, what then? This is assuming that only thoughts regarding gender identity are changed.
Would this be considered more immoral/ethically wrong than current transgender ops?
On August 01 2013 11:10 Arkless wrote: Ok, guys. I have a question. That may be considered "ignorant" But it is a genuine question that I don't get. And hopefully someone here could clarify it for me. But I would like to preface, that I am a straight male. And have 0 problems with gay,lesbian,bi, or transgender people. I honestly give 0 fucks as what some one does to be happy. So in other words, if you're gay. That's cool, it doesn't bother me. Also, I must preface this facet specifically, and will be using caps.
I HAVE 0 PROBLEMS WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS CHANGED THERE GENDER, TO WHAT THEY FEEL THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN BORN AS. IF IT MAKES THEM HAPPY, GIVE'R
I repeat!! ^^^^read that again.
Now, here is the possible "ignorant" question. But it is an honest, genuine question. So please don't take this as any form of an attack from me, and please don't flame the shit out of me. I feel any question should be able to be asked, if it's sincere. And would love actual responses from actual LGBT ppl.
But whyyyyyyyyyyyy are transgenders lumped into the same category as gay, lesbian, and bi? I don't understand this. As far as I am concerned, your sexual preference has nothing to do with your gender. You like, what you like. But becoming a transgender is an actual medical procedure, that has nothing to do with being gay, bi , or lesbian. Am I missing something? Could someone please educate me on that facet of LGBT.
Once again, this is from a place of curiosity, not hate. =)
Kisses, hugs, and belly rubs to all!
The reason for this is because transgender people and gay/lesbian/bi people were both oppressed under similar conditions in the past, and transgender people openly protested and rioted along with the gay/lesbian/bi community. They have been there since the beginning. Think of it as blacks and hispanics coming together to combat racism under the banner of 'people of color.' What they have in common is not the color of their skin but the nature of their oppression.
On August 01 2013 13:12 fluidin wrote: Hmmm, just putting it out here (not being anti-LBGT or whatever, but Christ, proponents of LBGT everything are so vocal nowadays that one actually feels like he has to insert disclaimers in their posts).
If, one day, medical procedure is so advanced that instead of current transgender ops, a medical procedure to change one's mental identity to suit their natural physical body is safe and easily available, what then? This is assuming that only thoughts regarding gender identity are changed.
Would this be considered more immoral/ethically wrong than current transgender ops?
It would only be ethically wrong if it was forced upon them. I wouldn't take the procedure, and most people I know wouldn't either, because it would fundamentally change who they are.
If, one day, medical procedure is so advanced that instead of current transgender ops, a medical procedure to change one's mental identity to suit their natural physical body is safe and easily available, what then? This is assuming that only thoughts regarding gender identity are changed.
Would this be considered more immoral/ethically wrong than current transgender ops?
That gets into philosophical questions of what makes an ego/identity/self of a person. Personally, I think that "change one's mental identity" sounds dangerously close to brainwashing.
EPT
I understand what you said, but in the end it is my choice whether I tell you or not. If I'm just having sex with some guy one night and then leaving in the morning then no I won't tell him. It doesn't affect him. I don't know yet how I feel about the "informed consent" thing. I am a girl though, and I won't pretend otherwise. In my opinion transsexual is only a term used for someone that's transitioning. If I'm done with my transition then I'm not transsexual anymore eh? This whole thing revolves around the idea that I'm somehow fake, that because my body isn't what everyone says it should be my identity isn't important.
