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Deleuze
United Kingdom2102 Posts
On June 08 2014 02:55 heliusx wrote: ??? They've detonated quite a few. Although supposedly their delivery tech is shit so far. I had no idea. For some reason I just thought that they were just suspected. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
It's not that NK would last long. But the damage caused on South Korea would be massive. And that's before the thousands that would die attempting to flee to China. Then, you have the issue of what you would do with those within North Korea. This doesn't mean that most everyone associated with the upper parts of the regime deserve anything more than to be drug out into the street and shot, but a lot of people never get what they deserve in life. The NK regime is a far worse problem when it collapses. Which is the true Horror. As for the recently detained US Citizen, so far all we know is he left a Bible. Nothing about giving it to someone. He happened to leave a book. You've gotta be careful when dealing with insane regimes. | ||
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Ghost151
United States290 Posts
Instead of threatening SK for attention and to demand aid, and hiding behind their nuke threats/the complicated China situation, it seems they've ramped up kidnappings of foreigners as bargaining chips to meet the same ends. Sign of the times and world situation. They may be fanatical, even crazy, but they aren't stupid. Nuclear war would mean effective obliteration of the korean peninsula (which they don't want), and with China's withering...well, "tolerance" of their shenaningans it seems it has prompted them to move back into the "safe" territory of hostage taking. This especially accounts for the fact that America has less gung-ho leadership at present than a decade ago. I often understood it that NK was trying to bait the US into a regional conflict by threatening its allies, specifically SK and Japan, in order to pit the US against other influential world powers, China and to a lesser extent in the past, Russia (interestingly this angle is getting more threatening now considering recent events with Putin). With Bush's regime out and Obama's more serious and measured approach (by no means is he any less dangerous to N. Koreans, if his handling of the middle east conflicts is the example. In some ways Obama is incredibly more brutal than Bush was.), it's less likely that that will happen unless they do something catastrophically drastic. To me, this explains the recent actions quite well (and I'm sure they've done it for DECADES hoping for the same result). They fire at a SK warship, hoping it fires back with intent and hits, baiting SK into starting the war back up and igniting the whole chain reaction of conflict just like in WWI. But China's recent cooling off has thrown a monkey wrench into this plan. I really believe China knows what's up. Contingencies or no, they've got it thought out already. -War between NK and SK/US allies would be costly, take an inordinate amount of time without nuclear response and result in millions of deaths between the sides. NK has enough of a military presence to cause major harm to SK even today (and they've proven it before to boot) Millions would die between both sides. This isn't a viable option for the allied side. -Instead, deposing the government through an assassination, kidnapping, precision strike, etc...the kind of black op antics that the CIA is known to do and the USA has an infamous reputation for, would most likely happen. It's the most probable way we'd intervene first if not drawn in by NK actions, and China knows it (they suspect it as the cause it in their contingency notes) . If it's successful, the government falls apart and the country's regime collapses; mass chaos ensues in NK. -Which leads to massive refugee movements, hence the preparations for refugee camps and stepping up border monitoring. The real tell-tale sign here that China is getting fed up with NK's bullshit is the plans for separate camps for leadership, in order to reduce the effectiveness of organizing resistance movements or militias for whatever end. China is basically saying they admit that NK is too extreme and if they fall apart for whatever reason, they will not allow them to reinstate that mess, but they will not be the one pull the trigger on them; they'll just deal with the mess if it happens. As for the detained hostages themselves, whatever their reasons were for being in the country in the first place are irrelevant, and if these people went willingly, they really are not very self-preservative. They shouldn't be there at all given NK's propensity for hostage taking and extremely hostile nature, and all travel into NK should be restricted by citizens' various countries (except for state diplomats) for their own safety, yes. Nk is just doing it because of their foreign citizenship status in the first place, to demand something in return for their hostage. It doesn't matter what you are there for or what NK claims you do in order to detain you, if they see you as a valuable bargain chip and you are in their backyard, they are gonna just take you if they want. Idealistic people sometimes... | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
So it looks like we're going to war with North Korea soon (if they can keep their word) as the U.S Government doesn't give two shits about the movie being released or not. Other than that, the movie just received a lot of publicity for free. | ||
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On June 26 2014 03:29 ShoCkeyy wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/north-koreas-us-movie-act-war-073047684.html So it looks like we're going to war with North Korea soon (if they can keep their word) as the U.S Government doesn't give two shits about the movie being released or not. Other than that, the movie just received a lot of publicity for free. Sure we are. I remember when I used to be concerned with North Korea...now its just irritating. Oh well in a way I kind of hope they do try something, it would finally give SK (their likely target due to joint US drills) and the US a reason to invade and eliminate the threat. We can finally free those people...assuming they aren't completely brainwashed to the point where they somehow don't want freedom anymore | ||
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Simberto
Germany11507 Posts
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
Neither the U.S. or SK government want anything to do with NK. NK offers no geopolitical advantage to a country, in fact the aftermath of a conflict there would be a nightmare. NK can't properly feed it's people as is; when the authoritarian regime that runs the country falls to pieces, an incredible amount of the population is going to suffer and die. As bad as the NK situation is now, its arguable that it is much better situation than the aftermath of a conflict would be for any involved. Helping NK's people should absolutely NOT be done through conflict. Resolution needs to happen peacefully and over a long period of time. NK lives in a detached world, they as a society are not ready to wake up tomorrow and suddenly "democracy". Finally, who wants to volunteer to pick up the tab on the costs of reintegrating NK into modern times? From what I've heard the SK youth aren't exactly keen on the idea. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/10/young-south-koreans-fear-unification-with-north-wo/?page=all | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On June 26 2014 05:59 DonKey_ wrote: All the talk about invading NK is beyond naive. Neither the U.S. or SK government want anything to do with NK. NK offers no geopolitical advantage to a country, in fact the aftermath of a conflict there would be a nightmare. NK can't properly feed it's people as is; when the authoritarian regime that runs the country falls to pieces, an incredible amount of the population is going to suffer and die. As bad as the NK situation is now, its arguable that it is much better situation than the aftermath of a conflict would be for any involved. Helping NK's people should absolutely NOT be done through conflict. Resolution needs to happen peacefully and over a long period of time. NK lives in a detached world, they as a society are not ready to wake up tomorrow and suddenly "democracy". Finally, who wants to volunteer to pick up the tab on the costs of reintegrating NK into modern times? From what I've heard the SK youth aren't exactly keen on the idea. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/10/young-south-koreans-fear-unification-with-north-wo/?page=all German reunification is a good example. It cost a shitton of money. There are still a lot of problems. Not to mention the underlying, boiling hate West & East Germans have for each other. Sure, ask an educated fellow, he will say he doesn't have any prejudices. But when you look at other lower social classes (or the elder) this starts to change. Western people think the East has stolen money (while the West has no well maintained roads, ruined schools, ...), while a lot of people in the East hate the West for "showing their superiority". Now the Koreas are in a way more serious situation than Germany has ever been. And no - the international society won't really help. Look at the countries where they "helped" in the last decade. Not to mention the immigration/refugee issues which are bound to arise for SK & China. North Korea is not a problem of "how do we deal with the regime" but it's a problem of: "What do we do after?" And no one is willing to pay that cost (or has a solution which doesn't cost a shitton of money). Edit: I disagree with the "no geopolitical advantage" part. NK is the gateway to China (with SK being pro-US). Which of course means that China has at least a small interest to how the NK situation is developing (and if only they want to have part in the say who will lead NK). | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On June 08 2014 01:55 heliusx wrote: @nyxisto American will stay with the status quo in the Korean peninsula IMO. We've become soft like everyone else, for better or worse. You're right. We should bomb the shit out of North Korea and then plow it over and turn it into a giant parking lot: no regime to worry about, no refugees of a collapsed totalitarian regime either. | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
They are making threats hoping to avoid a war and any sort of intervention in their regime. War is not the answer, since not only the threat is not to be underestimated (not they could win any war, the death toll on both sides is not to be underestimated), but also because they will not make the first move. I completely agree with donkey. Also its NK, they will refuse any sort of intervention to "reform and rebuild" their country, look at their history, even without all the brainwashing its an absurd offer. Any attempt to help and "remove the threat" must be peaceful, what are all those people even thinking, war itself is the potential problem. The hit first before they do it logic is absurd, they call US their arch-enemy not because they want to invade US, its because they expect to be invaded, they never felt so weak and alone, since most of the world is united under democracy. Kim-Jon-Un want to keep his head on its place and his butt on the power, nothing else, and he seens to be dangerously scared. Thats why they want more counterplay in case war happens and they keep screaming "invade and sh*t hits the fan". On a less serious note, we should start sendind fax messages saying "soften your rules and start to implement democracy, or we will retaliate with pictures mocking Kim-Jon-Un". | ||
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sgtnoobkilla
Australia249 Posts
"If the US administration allows and defends the showing of the film, a merciless counter-measure will be taken," the spokesman was quoted as saying. The only reason they're spouting this rubbish all of the sudden about wanting to take "countermeasures" against this "act of terrorism" is because they want to get some more humanitarian aid with this drought that's going on in the country: North Korea Faces Worst Drought In Over A Decade SEOUL, June 23 (Reuters) - North Korea's rivers, streams and reservoirs are running dry in a prolonged drough, state media said on Monday, prompting the isolated country to mobilize some of its million-strong army to try to protect precious crops. The drought is the worst in North Korea for over a decade, state media reports have said, with some areas experiencing low rainfall levels since 1961. Office workers, farmers and women have been mobilized to direct water into the dry floors of fields and rice paddies, the official KCNA news agency said. ..... Linda Lewis, of the American Friends Service Committee, a Quaker-led NGO, confirmed the media reports and said managers on its North Korean partner farms had seen lower-than-usual rainfall levels in March and May. "They expressed concern about 'serious drought' conditions and the impact this was having on spring plowing and paddy field preparation," Lewis told Reuters via email. In some areas, she said, farm managers had experienced 70 days without rain. Higher-than average temperatures have exacerbated damage, affecting wheat, barley and maize, state media said. ..... Source It's just the same old rubbish that would make Machiavelli proud if they succeeded in stopping this film from airing: Gullible-minded foreign nationals gobbling this up and caving into this threat to "de-escalate" the tensions (LOL) and start giving them (read: Un and his elites) more aid to prop them up. At the same time, it makes it look like NK has some power to influence censorship of anti-NK media abroad. Kimmie Junior's starting to learn some tips from his predecessors. He just lacks...the style of his father.  | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
However, the reunification of North & South Korea simply isn't possible. The wealth/education/outlook divide between West & East Germany was pretty big. There was a huge cost and some of the animosity will linger for another 100 years. But Germany was, obviously, a World Power before the split. Korea was not. Thus, you have South Korea, a functioning modern economy (who's GDP per capita is roughly the Eurozone average, around the same level as New Zealand), attempting to integrate in a country with no history of self-rule, no functioning economy and no ability to feed itself. This isn't some idle project: it'd take in the range of 100 years to get North Korea to the point that it could integrate with South Korea. And that doesn't even cover how brutal it would be to manage North Korea during that transition. In a society used to lots of execution, keeping order will always require excessive amounts of force. Not the least because the entire population is feed a massive diet of insanity, just without any nutrients. | ||
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calh
537 Posts
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On June 26 2014 18:17 See.Blue wrote: People still care about north korea? Brutal dictatorship that kills large groups of its own people, threats all of its neighbors on a regular basis, and just happens to have nuclear weapons with missile tech possibly capable of reaching the West Coast of the USA. You should care. A little. They could end professional Korean e-Sports. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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sgtnoobkilla
Australia249 Posts
On June 26 2014 18:46 Grettin wrote: https://twitter.com/W7VOA/status/482096510025211904 More info here: (LEAD) N. Korea fires 3 short-range rockets into East Sea SEOUL, June 26 (Yonhap) -- North Korea fired three short-range projectiles from its east coast into the East Sea on Thursday, the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) said. The rockets were fired in succession from coastal areas near its eastern city of Wonsan at around 5 p.m. in a northeastern direction, and landed in international waters, according to the JCS. "Their range is some 190 kilometers, and we are now looking into exactly what type of rockets North Korea fired," the JCS official said, noting that the North's 300-millimeter multiple-rocket launcher KN-09 has a similar range. "The 300-millimeter launcher is known to have an up to 160 kilometer range," the official said. "As of now, it is yet to be confirmed if the North enhanced its capacity." The communist country did not make a pre-announcement for civilian flights or vessels, he added. "The (South Korean) military has maintained vigilance against additional launches, and is taking necessary steps," according to the JCS. ..... Source Continuation of that brinkmanship from a few weeks back. Can't wait to see their reaction in October when the film actually gets released. | ||
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
On June 26 2014 03:58 radscorpion9 wrote: Sure we are. I remember when I used to be concerned with North Korea...now its just irritating. Oh well in a way I kind of hope they do try something, it would finally give SK (their likely target due to joint US drills) and the US a reason to invade and eliminate the threat. We can finally free those people...assuming they aren't completely brainwashed to the point where they somehow don't want freedom anymore They are completely brainwashed | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
No they are not. They are just too scared to fight for their freedom. | ||
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
On June 26 2014 22:15 -Archangel- wrote: No they are not. They are just too scared to fight for their freedom. They would...if they were educated and if they weren't living in poverty | ||
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