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On February 18 2014 15:10 Faust852 wrote:
What keep us from intervening ? They don't have enough oil I guess ? :3
NK is a sovereign nation, like it or not and they are only doing this to their own citizens.
Not enough justification for any other country in the world to engage in an act of aggression to "save" NK citizens.
Also, the cost to "save them" would likely be far greater than what humanitarian aid we give them currently. There's ~2 generations of NK that have literally no skills that are useful in the modern world.
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Actually there's 4 ways how a nation can lose its sovereignty:
1) Invading a neighboring country
2) Violating the Genocide Convention (that includes genocide against your own people)
3) Harboring terrorists
4) Violating the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty
Leadership of NK is guilty of, at least, 2.
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United States44288 Posts
On February 18 2014 15:34 Pniski wrote:
Actually there's 4 ways how a nation can lose its sovereignty:
1) Invading a neighboring country
2) Violating the Genocide Convention (that includes genocide against your own people)
3) Harboring terrorists
4) Violating the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty
Leadership of NK is guilty of, at least, 2.
lol americans "actually sovereignty is defined by the Bush doctrine post 9/11 excluding any friends of the US who don't count and the US itself, this is actually true, check my dictionary, Cheney wrote it"
Sovereignty doesn't mean what you think it means. Sovereignty is the power to govern oneself, it is lost when it is taken. You could do 1 through 4 and still be a sovereign nation, the US invaded Iraq and it's still a sovereign nation.
Israel is in violation of the non proliferation treaty but nobody does anything because nobody can because they have nukes and US support.
Sovereignty is lost when another nation has the power and desire to take it from you and no nation has that to NK. NK is a sovereign nation and therefore has the right to do whatever the fuck it wants until someone decides to stop them in the same way that the US, as a sovereign nation, can invade places and torture people.
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On February 18 2014 15:34 Pniski wrote:
Actually there's 4 ways how a nation can lose its sovereignty:
1) Invading a neighboring country
2) Violating the Genocide Convention (that includes genocide against your own people)
3) Harboring terrorists
4) Violating the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty
Leadership of NK is guilty of, at least, 2.
I hope its a joke.......
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On February 18 2014 15:37 KwarK wrote:
lol americans
I don't want another war. 
I just want us to put a 10th of the US warfund on helping the veterans and moving past all this war stuff.
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On February 18 2014 15:34 Pniski wrote:
Actually there's 4 ways how a nation can lose its sovereignty:
1) Invading a neighboring country
2) Violating the Genocide Convention (that includes genocide against your own people)
3) Harboring terrorists
4) Violating the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty
Leadership of NK is guilty of, at least, 2.
I guess US found the loophole in 1) by invading non-neighbouring countries.
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It does raise the question though; in a post-iraq, vietnam, afgan world, at what point do we try to justify intervening in a place like NK?
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On January 31 2014 05:58 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 05:54 Nyxisto wrote:
Also reunification costs for South Korea would be incredible. Germany's reunification has cost over two trillion, building up North - Korea would probably cost even more. This is something I really should know lol. Do you have a handy reference for that?
nothing to worry~ we can have the chaebols like samsung for supports...
with samsung, hyundai, sk, lg and others... "we can~"
perhaps NK progamers are better than SK~
david kim should pay a visit and introduce SC to KJU...
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Even if they have 2 "useless" generations in NK, it doesn't mean we shouldn't help them.
I'm pretty sure USA or any other highly technologic army country can kill the Jong-Un Family in a single fast raid.
I don't know, USA didn't really hesitate to attack Iraq, etc for really blurry motive, an everyone knows the reason was more economic than humanistic.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents, And I know we won't do a thing before KJU does something really stupid outside his borders.
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On February 18 2014 16:44 riyanme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 05:58 Plexa wrote:On January 31 2014 05:54 Nyxisto wrote:
Also reunification costs for South Korea would be incredible. Germany's reunification has cost over two trillion, building up North - Korea would probably cost even more. This is something I really should know lol. Do you have a handy reference for that? nothing to worry~ we can have the chaebols like samsung for supports... with samsung, hyundai, sk, lg and others... "we can~" perhaps NK progamers are better than SK~ david kim should pay a visit and introduce SC to KJU...
Even then, look at Germany. It's now one of the most powerful country in the word economically-wise.
And South Korea is a fucking working machine, thay could overcome such expense to save a country lol.
Back in '70s, North Korea was richer than SK.
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On February 18 2014 15:23 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 15:10 Faust852 wrote:
What keep us from intervening ? They don't have enough oil I guess ? :3 NK is a sovereign nation, like it or not and they are only doing this to their own citizens. Not enough justification for any other country in the world to engage in an act of aggression to "save" NK citizens. Also, the cost to "save them" would likely be far greater than what humanitarian aid we give them currently. There's ~2 generations of NK that have literally no skills that are useful in the modern world.
According to the R2P norm you lose your soveregnity if you commit ethnical cleansing. (Not that it matters if the country doesn't have oil or is interesting for some other geopolitical reason.)
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NK is interesting for geo political reasons. It's next to China and they won't like it if the US attacks.
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The post that I responded to was strictly about the legal aspect of it. The only thing I was trying to point out was that a legal justification exists out there, if you're looking for it. What I feel or think about the subject has nothing to do with the previous post. And sovereignty just means independent authority over a geographical area. The use of force to lift the current existing authority, if all other means of conduct fail, is a part of it.
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On February 18 2014 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Even if they have 2 "useless" generations in NK, it doesn't mean we shouldn't help them.
I'm pretty sure USA or any other highly technologic army country can kill the Jong-Un Family in a single fast raid.
I don't know, USA didn't really hesitate to attack Iraq, etc for really blurry motive, an everyone knows the reason was more economic than humanistic.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents, And I know we won't do a thing before KJU does something really stupid outside his borders.
I agree. NK's situation is not a problem for everyone in the region. Every country around take some advantages of having such a weird neighbor if you think about it.
NK is good at distracting attention. China and Russia looks like perfect democracies in comparison.
And it's even confortable for SK. Do they really want to have a direct border with such an economical giant like China? I don't think so. And rightwing korean politicien are quitr happy to use the fear of the bad communists in the north to win elections as well.
The US are glad to sell planes, guns and ships too.
And no doubt that Japan preferes a less strong SK in economical eastern asia context.
like you said, while KJU stays in his country, he can keep threatening, yelling, even shooting with some guns or few canons, nobody will move. The statu quo is a too good situation for many people around.
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I honestly think any change in regime for NK is going to come from the inside, not the outside. Slowly as capitalism and independent traders grow within the country (there are already some signs with products from china being sold illegally within the country, using bribes) shit will be begin to change I think. Tsarism didn't end with direct foreign involvement, I doubt the NK regime will either.
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On February 18 2014 19:02 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Even if they have 2 "useless" generations in NK, it doesn't mean we shouldn't help them.
I'm pretty sure USA or any other highly technologic army country can kill the Jong-Un Family in a single fast raid.
I don't know, USA didn't really hesitate to attack Iraq, etc for really blurry motive, an everyone knows the reason was more economic than humanistic.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents, And I know we won't do a thing before KJU does something really stupid outside his borders. I agree. NK's situation is not a problem for everyone in the region. Every country around take some advantages of having such a weird neighbor if you think about it. NK is good at distracting attention. China and Russia looks like perfect democracies in comparison. And it's even confortable for SK. Do they really want to have a direct border with such an economical giant like China? I don't think so. And rightwing korean politicien are quitr happy to use the fear of the bad communists in the north to win elections as well. The US are glad to sell planes, guns and ships too. And no doubt that Japan preferes a less strong SK in economical eastern asia context. like you said, while KJU stays in his country, he can keep threatening, yelling, even shooting with some guns or few canons, nobody will move. The statu quo is a too good situation for many people around.
Why would you not want to share a border with an economic giant? The Netherlands share a border with Germany and they are thriving (because of it or despite of it, doesn't matter really).
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Zurich15366 Posts
On February 18 2014 19:33 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 19:02 Agathon wrote:On February 18 2014 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Even if they have 2 "useless" generations in NK, it doesn't mean we shouldn't help them.
I'm pretty sure USA or any other highly technologic army country can kill the Jong-Un Family in a single fast raid.
I don't know, USA didn't really hesitate to attack Iraq, etc for really blurry motive, an everyone knows the reason was more economic than humanistic.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents, And I know we won't do a thing before KJU does something really stupid outside his borders. I agree. NK's situation is not a problem for everyone in the region. Every country around take some advantages of having such a weird neighbor if you think about it. NK is good at distracting attention. China and Russia looks like perfect democracies in comparison. And it's even confortable for SK. Do they really want to have a direct border with such an economical giant like China? I don't think so. And rightwing korean politicien are quitr happy to use the fear of the bad communists in the north to win elections as well. The US are glad to sell planes, guns and ships too. And no doubt that Japan preferes a less strong SK in economical eastern asia context. like you said, while KJU stays in his country, he can keep threatening, yelling, even shooting with some guns or few canons, nobody will move. The statu quo is a too good situation for many people around. Why would you not want to share a border with an economic giant? The Netherlands share a border with Germany and they are thriving (because of it or despite of it, doesn't matter really).
Yeah that part makes no sense at all. Sharing a border with China would be one of the big advantages of a united Korea.
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On February 18 2014 19:29 Zealos wrote:
I honestly think any change in regime for NK is going to come from the inside, not the outside. Slowly as capitalism and independent traders grow within the country (there are already some signs with products from china being sold illegally within the country, using bribes) shit will be begin to change I think. Tsarism didn't end with direct foreign involvement, I doubt the NK regime will either.
The problem is that since the fall of Tsarism man has become so much better at brain washing/controlling the masses.
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On February 18 2014 19:33 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 19:02 Agathon wrote:On February 18 2014 17:16 Faust852 wrote:
Even if they have 2 "useless" generations in NK, it doesn't mean we shouldn't help them.
I'm pretty sure USA or any other highly technologic army country can kill the Jong-Un Family in a single fast raid.
I don't know, USA didn't really hesitate to attack Iraq, etc for really blurry motive, an everyone knows the reason was more economic than humanistic.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents, And I know we won't do a thing before KJU does something really stupid outside his borders. I agree. NK's situation is not a problem for everyone in the region. Every country around take some advantages of having such a weird neighbor if you think about it. NK is good at distracting attention. China and Russia looks like perfect democracies in comparison. And it's even confortable for SK. Do they really want to have a direct border with such an economical giant like China? I don't think so. And rightwing korean politicien are quitr happy to use the fear of the bad communists in the north to win elections as well. The US are glad to sell planes, guns and ships too. And no doubt that Japan preferes a less strong SK in economical eastern asia context. like you said, while KJU stays in his country, he can keep threatening, yelling, even shooting with some guns or few canons, nobody will move. The statu quo is a too good situation for many people around. Why would you not want to share a border with an economic giant? The Netherlands share a border with Germany and they are thriving (because of it or despite of it, doesn't matter really).
That's because weed is legal in Netherlands.
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On February 18 2014 17:18 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 16:44 riyanme wrote:On January 31 2014 05:58 Plexa wrote:On January 31 2014 05:54 Nyxisto wrote:
Also reunification costs for South Korea would be incredible. Germany's reunification has cost over two trillion, building up North - Korea would probably cost even more. This is something I really should know lol. Do you have a handy reference for that? nothing to worry~ we can have the chaebols like samsung for supports... with samsung, hyundai, sk, lg and others... "we can~" perhaps NK progamers are better than SK~ david kim should pay a visit and introduce SC to KJU... Even then, look at Germany. It's now one of the most powerful country in the word economically-wise. And South Korea is a fucking working machine, thay could overcome such expense to save a country lol. Back in '70s, North Korea was richer than SK.
After living in SK, i can tell you:
Germany is the most said reason, why so man south koreans do NOT want the reunification...
a) Western Germany(WG) had about 3 times as many ppl as Eeastern Germany(EG) - In Korea it is about SK:NK 2:1
b) EG was the leading economical power among then whole east block... NK is a stone age country, with >50% of the population working for or supplying the military which again is at no economical relevant level (selling tanks from the 60's won't work...)
c) EG population was quite well informed and educated... propaganda happened, but didn't fully succeed. - NK population has close to 0 outside information sources, general education level is quite low, and propaganda is the only thing most have ever known
d) german reunification happened peaceful and a significant part of the population wanted a unified Germany, led by western germany. - The Kims won't leave power by themselves, and with propaganda having done it's work, you won't that friendly welcome for a SK led unified Korea
e) the protective power of EG (the SU) allowed the unification and it would have never happened without their approval... China won't allow it now or will ever allow it with NK.
f) WG was already an economical powerhouse for quite some time at this point (30 years), fully westernized, and only slightly derailed by the war... (but back on track quite fast after it) - SK is quite happy about their rise in the last decades... But they are still not there yet... Their cultural changes are still not completed and are trying to catch up and adopt to their new situation. They fear to lose their hard fought progress by trying to pull NK out of the mud...
g) the relations between EG and WG were not always good on political levels, but the populations were still somehow connected and communication was not impossible - the ties between NK and SK do not really exist anymore beside some families split 50 years ago... that had basically no chance to communicate since then
And now thinking that the german reunification was a full success is also wrong...
the differences between EG and WG still exist today, in terms of economy and also in the heads of the ppl... (I'm tired of seeing every poll split in EG and WG, even today or my dad telling me, that this politician or athlete is from EG/WG etc... but it is still like that for most parts of germany...)
The (south) Koreans watched the german reunification very closely... and they know their preconditions are way worse on all levels... There is not much to gain for them.
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EPT
