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"Hurry up and die"

Forum Index > General Forum
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Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-24 06:19:24
January 24 2013 04:13 GMT
#1
In many ways, Japan is the most advanced country on Earth. Technologically, it exceeds the United States in many areas. Japan, thanks to its highly advanced post-industral economy, has about the same number of people as Russia, but creates four times Russia's GDP with an environmental footprint that is barely half of Russia's. From an urban development perspective, Japan's cities are among the cleanest, most well-served by infrastructure, and most pedestrian-friendly on Earth.

But there is one final element in which Japan leads the world--and it's not necessarily a positive one: demographics. Every nation, as it gets richer and more educated, eventually experiences a falling birthrate. Presumably, raising a child to be economically competitive becomes harder, while people acquire new apsirations and leisure activities beyond popping out babies. Japan is furthest along this curve, with a dismal birthrate of 1.2 children per woman. The result? A shrinking, aging population.

Now, old people aren't necessarily bad, if they're funding their retirements from their own savings, and those savings are put into highly productive investments. Unfortunately, in the vast majority of developed countries (and developing ones, like China), retirement is funded with a mix of savings that become captive to morally hazardous Wall Street traders and Chinese and Japanese land developers, and "pay as you go" social security systems that force the current working generation to pay for the health of the prior working generation.

Put simply, old people are now a burden because we don't have enough money in the financial system to take care of them, and because we don't have enough young people to support their overwhemlingly spendthrift consumptive habits.

By consumptive habits, I don't mean retirees plunking their oxygen bottles on the deck of a Carnival cruise liner or next to the dollar slot machines at the Foxwoods Casino. I'm talking about the two iron laws that come about when you intersect human behavior, medical science, and economics.

  • First, the marginal cost to keep a person alive for an additional year is constantly increasing, since their health is constantly deteriorating.

  • Second, people are subconsciously hardwired to delay their own death for as long as they can.

What happens? To get someone from 60 years to 70 years in one piece requires maybe 100k USD in healthcare. From to 70 to 80? 200k. From 80 to 90? Anywhere between 400k and 1 million. And subconsciously, that 90 year old is going to want to keep living forever, up until the point where not even the combined economic resources of the world can keep alive. These numbers are hypothetical, but the trend line is not.

[image loading]


Of course, Japan has done an admirable job of keeping its average healthcare costs low--again, because they're so damn advanced. But even they, the paragons of being efficient at keeping old people alive, are feeling the pain. Why?

Demand for healthcare is infinite, explosive, and self-perpetuating. Successfully meeting healthcare demand for this year's crop of retirees simply means you'll have to keep them alive next year as well, at a higher price, and the year after that, forever.

With that grim idea in mind, some people have taken an interesting approach to solving the problem. And since this problem is most acute in Japan, their politicians are saying what we all might be saying in ten, twenty, or thirty years:

"Hurry up and die."

Taro Aso, the finance minister, said on Monday that the elderly should be allowed to "hurry up and die" to relieve pressure on the state to pay for their medical care.

"Heaven forbid if you are forced to live on when you want to die. I would wake up feeling increasingly bad knowing that [treatment] was all being paid for by the government," he said during a meeting of the national council on social security reforms. "The problem won't be solved unless you let them hurry up and die."

....

The 72-year-old, who doubles as deputy prime minister, said he would refuse end-of-life care. "I don't need that kind of care," he said in comments quoted by local media, adding that he had written a note instructing his family to deny him life-prolonging medical treatment.

To compound the insult, he referred to elderly patients who are no longer able to feed themselves as "tube people". The health and welfare ministry, he added, was "well aware that it costs several tens of millions of yen" a month to treat a single patient in the final stages of life.


Now, a number of questions spring to mind after reading those four paragraphs, but the pressing one is: why is a politician talking about this? Why should voters be concerned about this?

Because it goes back to the nature of how these elderly are paying for their healthcare--by a mix of their own ill-invested savings and payroll taxes from the current generation. As the elderly draw down their savings, they add stress onto the financial system and increase the cost of capital, lowering the rate of accretion for labor-saving, capital-intensive investment for workers and decreasing labor productivity--the root of a working person's prosperity. Unless the investments have been exceedingly productive, there simply isn't enough cash left over for continued capital accumulation. Second, and more directly, payroll taxes come straight from the worker's own pocket, meaning that part of those millions of bucks that are being spent to get some random ninety-year-old to his hundredth birthday come from you.

The next logical step is a bit more chilling. Knowing that demand for healthcare is infinite, but that costs are partially socialized (and even if they weren't, they would still harm the economy), shouldn't the average working man have a say in how much healthcare the average retiree gets, and hence how long he or she will live? Follow that logic all the way to the end: since a democratic government is the executor of the popular will, shouldn't it get to decide how long a person lives?

And if they're such a drain on us--the rational, utility-maximizing, economic agents that macroeconomic history has demonstrated we often are--after sixty-five, shouldn't retirees just hurry up and die?



Poll: Should people have the right to life, at any cost?

No (407)
 
52%

Yes (381)
 
48%

788 total votes

Your vote: Should people have the right to life, at any cost?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No

Что?
lOvOlUNiMEDiA
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States643 Posts
January 24 2013 04:20 GMT
#2
Why not just visit the 50+ morality threads that have already been posted on TL?
To say that I'm missing the point, you would first have to show that such work can have a point.
Jisall
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2054 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-24 04:29:34
January 24 2013 04:24 GMT
#3
I would leave it up to the person when they want to go, just because the government promised them healthcare and now can't provide for them doesn't mean they can just go back on their promise. Although that is what the typical socialist-leaning government would do.

Giving the government the power of deciding who lives and who dies leads you down a very dark alley that we have traveled before. Genocide one of the doors on that alley.

Edit: this might be my western bias showing threw. Western Culture has taught us that life is of the ultimate value, we have a veyr individualist culture, and not very collectivist.

Also calling humans "tube people" is offensive
Monk: Because being a badass is more fun then playing a dude wearing a scarf.. ... Ite fuck it, Witch Doctor cuz I like killing stuff in a timely mannor.
MaestroSC
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2073 Posts
January 24 2013 04:25 GMT
#4
cause this is the only one not about guns? =D
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-24 04:32:22
January 24 2013 04:31 GMT
#5
well... that certainly a new perspective on one of the larger problems witch plagues larger otherwise healthy socities. And unlike some other sollutions you can't really argue about its effectivness.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
January 24 2013 04:36 GMT
#6
Yeah this is a really difficult question to answer, especially as we can't sustainably populate at this rate but also...can't just mass murder people etc :\
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
AnachronisticAnarchy
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States2957 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-24 05:00:27
January 24 2013 04:37 GMT
#7
In our current situation, people should only have the "right" to live in these latter stages of life if they can afford it. Lord knows we can't. Keeping everyone's grandma on chemo is just becoming impossible. I mean, it would be nice if extremely expensive life-prolonging operations and medicines were available to everyone, but as life goes on these procedures become more and more expensive and give less and less time to the patient.

Minor tangent: things like "rights" and "morals" are a luxury. Assuming two forces are equal, the one willing to resort to the most evil of measures will win, as it can do what the other cannot to win. Being incapable of granting ourselves the luxury of a certain right is not something we're used to, but we're probably going to have to learn fast.
"How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain."
Tenshix
Profile Joined January 2013
United States169 Posts
January 24 2013 04:38 GMT
#8
Next step: Japan develops immortality to prevent their entire population from dying off.
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
January 24 2013 04:39 GMT
#9
On January 24 2013 13:37 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
People should only have the "right" to live in these latter stages of life if they can afford it. Lord knows we can't. Keeping everyone's grandma on chemo is just becoming impossible. I mean, it would be nice if extremely expensive life-prolonging operations and medicines were available to everyone, but as life goes on these procedures become more and more expensive and give less and less time to the patient.

So life-prolonging healthcare is the right of the rich? Try suggesting that in a democracy, and watch as those old people vote you out of office
Что?
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
January 24 2013 04:39 GMT
#10
On January 24 2013 13:38 Tenshix wrote:
Next step: Japan develops immortality to prevent their entire population from dying off.

That only works if they develop the cybernetic limbs and brain-enhancing chips to keep their population productive forever, too
Что?
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
January 24 2013 04:40 GMT
#11
i think there should be a point where there let loose, if it comes to the point where they cant do anything themself there pretty mcuh a corpse at that point

i think each person should be alloted a set amount of money and once that runs dry theres no more that way those who can save up enough can keep living but those completely relying on strangers reap what they sow
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
January 24 2013 04:40 GMT
#12
Everyone should be allowed to decide whether or not they want to live or die, and nobody else should be in charge of that.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9175 Posts
January 24 2013 04:41 GMT
#13
I can't believe that more than half belief in the right to life, at any cost. At some point it's just not viable.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
January 24 2013 04:42 GMT
#14
On January 24 2013 13:40 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Everyone should be allowed to decide whether or not they want to live or die, and nobody else should be in charge of that.

when you put someone else in charge of keeping you alive that person should get to decide when enough is enough

if someone is 100% reliant on other people to stay alive why should they get the say? why not the people actually keeping the person alive?
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
January 24 2013 04:44 GMT
#15
On January 24 2013 13:39 Shady Sands wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2013 13:38 Tenshix wrote:
Next step: Japan develops immortality to prevent their entire population from dying off.

That only works if they develop the cybernetic limbs and brain-enhancing chips to keep their population productive forever, too

It's japan,they can pull it off within the next 50 years or so if they work on it alittle
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
January 24 2013 04:44 GMT
#16
I dont want to live past 80. Actually i don't want to live past the age where i can't do anything. For some people like my grandpa who is 85 and can walk fine as long as he has a cane. Thats fine but the moment i can't get out of the house put me out of my misery.
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
January 24 2013 04:49 GMT
#17
Taro Aso has some balls, he just told like half of his voters that they should have the right to hurry up and die. I am waiting for the death panel cries to start.
Telcontar
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom16710 Posts
January 24 2013 04:50 GMT
#18
On January 24 2013 13:44 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
I dont want to live past 80. Actually i don't want to live past the age where i can't do anything. For some people like my grandpa who is 85 and can walk fine as long as he has a cane. Thats fine but the moment i can't get out of the house put me out of my misery.

You can be past 80 and still be very functional & healthy. It just depends on how you've lived and how well you took care of yourself.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
January 24 2013 04:50 GMT
#19
On January 24 2013 13:44 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
I dont want to live past 80. Actually i don't want to live past the age where i can't do anything. For some people like my grandpa who is 85 and can walk fine as long as he has a cane. Thats fine but the moment i can't get out of the house put me out of my misery.

for me as long as i can still function on my own (get out of bed get dressed eat e.t.c) even if im living in a home in a wheelchair im fine

but if im perma-hospitilized and cant do anything without a nurse thats the end for me
Larkin
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United Kingdom7161 Posts
January 24 2013 04:51 GMT
#20
Interesting. I believe the minister in question was likely looking at the figures and seeing such a huge expenditure with no income for keeping people alive - it is very costly and would alarm any economist.

In terms of the democratic argument, I completely agree. It's the power of the people, so they should decide. Of course, the person in question has an equal right to decide. So perhaps it should be a country wide vote on an age limit for healthcare to elderly to stop.

If people desire to keep living beyond that, they can do so privately.
https://www.twitch.tv/ttalarkin - streams random stuff, high level teamleague, maybe even heroleague
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