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On January 24 2013 13:24 Jisall wrote:
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Edit: this might be my western bias showing threw. Western Culture has taught us that life is of the ultimate value, we have a veyr individualist culture, and not very collectivist.
Also calling humans "tube people" is offensive
As far as I know, this is wrong. Plenty of western government have some sort of "we do not negotiate with criminals/terrorists" stance, which shows that the value of the life of hostages is not absolute. At least with regards to those criminals/terrorists of which you can be somewhat sure that they won't use the money to buy more weapons and kill more people.
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This is a really interesting topic, considering that in Italy we have the opposite problem... It's really difficult or even impossible to die legally if you want to, even when you are in really extreme conditions.
I think that in italy, the catholic church economic interests in the healthcare system are so big, that it's very difficult for the governaments to make a proper law about the right of dieing. At the moment if I want to get a proper and legal biologic testament I have to go with my doctor to a lawyer every 3 years to sign. If every italians wanted to do that, all the doctors and layers would be busy doing biological testaments all day long.
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robots should pay taxes. it'll solve everything. 
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There is money enough in the world, it's in some people's bank account, so we should be let some people die because some others wants to become rich ? Becoming rich (to me) is just abusing the system and taking a share on the works of others... I don't understand why this is no problem for you guys and why letting some people DIE to save some money is alright ... It makes no sense to me, this is insane...
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there's an old defunct tradition in sweden called "ättestupan", "the lineage/kin fall/feller":
it's either when an old person decides their life is over and jumps off a cliff (tradition dictates that they should take all their valuables and hide them so their wealth doesn't pass on to their heirs), or when the kin decides it's time and offs the old person, by throwing them off a cliff or even using an extremely large sledge, so unwieldy that it takes the entire family to lift it, to crack the old one in bed.
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On January 24 2013 18:10 CYFAWS wrote:
there's an old defunct tradition in sweden called "ättestupan", "the lineage/kin fall/feller":
it's either when an old person decides their life is over and jumps off a cliff (tradition dictates that they should take all their valuables and hide them so their wealth doesn't pass on to their heirs), or when the kin decides it's time and offs the old person, by throwing them off a cliff or even using an extremely large sledge, so unwieldy that it takes the entire family to lift it, to crack the old one in bed.
That can't be legal...
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I love how most of you guys answer NO, it's fucking depressing, let us ask you that question when you'll be 80, 95% Yes, do you want to keep your grandma alive? 90% Yes (yeah 10% got issues). Of course people should have access to health care, even if they are old, they paid taxes all their life ffs? It doesnt mean we should operate at any cost anyone, but good treatment is mandatory in a half decent society. If people really, actually think that health care is what makes our societies living on a huge debt, you guys need to get informed
Edit : And about Japan we cant even compare due to the cultural differences, elders in Japan might actually kill themselves to avoid being a huge charge for their families, it's something that would very rarely happen in the rest of the world, using Japan as an introduction to that debate is imho a really poor idea, especially when you read the quote from Taro Aso
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On January 24 2013 17:32 dani` wrote:
Though I would be highly surprised if a majority of people would vote in favor of a law like 'no form of health care is provided to those who have passed the age of 85'.
That's because you're only presenting the downside, you need to complete the proposal with "and the money saved will be spent on X / Y forms of welfare / infrastructure instead!"
EDIT: also no one is proposing no health care AT ALL to old people, just that the government should not subsidise it. In fact, old people / their families spending out of their own pocket on health care is a good thing for the economy
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I don't know about other countries but in Holland, the pension age is 67 nowadays. Die at 80 is a reasonable age but you could also die at 68. Save up pension all your life and die like that.
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On January 24 2013 18:11 gamerdude12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 18:10 CYFAWS wrote:
there's an old defunct tradition in sweden called "ättestupan", "the lineage/kin fall/feller":
it's either when an old person decides their life is over and jumps off a cliff (tradition dictates that they should take all their valuables and hide them so their wealth doesn't pass on to their heirs), or when the kin decides it's time and offs the old person, by throwing them off a cliff or even using an extremely large sledge, so unwieldy that it takes the entire family to lift it, to crack the old one in bed. That can't be legal...
lol, note "defunct", would guess it didn't happen since christianity was introduced
so about 1000 years ago. Maybe 600 in the most remote mountain/woodlands
which also means it might partly be a myth but it's so bizarre that i want to believe people actually did that kind of thing
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On January 24 2013 18:12 mahO wrote:
I love how most of you guys answer NO, it's fucking depressing, let us ask you that question when you'll be 80, 95% Yes, do you want to keep your grandma alive? 90% Yes (yeah 10% got issues). Of course people should have access to health care, even if they are old, they paid taxes all their life ffs? It doesnt mean we should operate at any cost anyone, but good treatment is mandatory in a half decent society. If people really, actually think that health care is what makes our societies living on a huge debt, you guys need to get informed
Nope. My grandma is in that exact situation, she is a walking cadaver who looks like gollum, can't even speak or think right and they are injecting her with some super-serum to keep the appearance she's still alive. That's not my grandma, it's just a shell filled with some chemicals and I wish they would stop.
Also, if you have a shred of true faith in your life (this does not equal religion) you won't be afraid of death in the slightest. Too bad faith is something most young people laugh at nowadays.
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On January 24 2013 13:50 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 13:44 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
I dont want to live past 80. Actually i don't want to live past the age where i can't do anything. For some people like my grandpa who is 85 and can walk fine as long as he has a cane. Thats fine but the moment i can't get out of the house put me out of my misery. You can be past 80 and still be very functional & healthy. It just depends on how you've lived and how well you took care of yourself.
Ahahahah, that was fucking hilarious, yeah, get to 80 in Europe, USA, Japan or South Korea coming from a poor background, doing a manual, exhausting job, we'll see if you're healthy at 80, and that is without even considering blind luck, guy who never smoked dies of lung cancer at age 40, my grand father did exhausting jobs all his life (lumberjack for 20 years, and we're talking WW2 times so cant even imagine the task), smoked cigars everyday and he died 4 years ago at age 97, if it wasnt for a fall, he would have made it to 100 years old, life is random, but stats dont lie, manual workers and such have a way shorter life expectancy, so I guess rich people are fine with it yeah.
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One vital point has been very carelessly obscured here. If the old retiree does not have a right to live off of your labour, neither do you have a right to live off of his! It is frankly pretty sickening that you could come so close to an actual moral, rational political point of view on social security, and then turn around at the last second and make it into something totally diabolical: the notion that the rich retirees do not have a right to their own lives even as far as they can afford to pay for it by themselves. Now, instead of saying that each individual must bear the burden of the cost of his own living, even into retirement, which would be far too calouse for you I'm sure, you've insinuated instead that your interests represent the "public good", and the helpless dying minority are somehow morally obligated to cut their lives short so that yours, that of the majority, can be more fruitful. I just don't understand how you can be so self-righteous and so shameless at the same time. There is nothing wrong with thinking of your own interests first, but for God's sake that doesn't mean you should literally expropriate your neighbours' valid earnings to achieve whatever it is you want. There are other ways. Besides, why don't you look 40 years down the road and ask yourself if you want to live as a leech today just so you can set the precedent for your own life being sacrifically cut short tomorrow?
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On January 24 2013 18:19 Kickboxer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 18:12 mahO wrote:
I love how most of you guys answer NO, it's fucking depressing, let us ask you that question when you'll be 80, 95% Yes, do you want to keep your grandma alive? 90% Yes (yeah 10% got issues). Of course people should have access to health care, even if they are old, they paid taxes all their life ffs? It doesnt mean we should operate at any cost anyone, but good treatment is mandatory in a half decent society. If people really, actually think that health care is what makes our societies living on a huge debt, you guys need to get informed Nope. My grandma is in that exact situation, she is a walking cadaver who looks like gollum, can't even speak or think right and they are injecting her with some super-serum to keep the appearance she's still alive. That's not my grandma, it's just a shell filled with some chemicals and I wish they would stop. Also, if you have a shred of true faith in your life (this does not equal religion) you won't be afraid of death in the slightest. Too bad faith is something most young people laugh at nowadays.
Well, my grand parents were all (one of them is still alive), all able to have an elevated discussion, my grand father, the one who is alive, is more intelligent than you and me combined, I am not exagerating, he's reading about everything all the time, he's healthy, if it wasnt for his hip he would still fix his house alone, going on the roof etc. He is 92 fucking years old, he was a teacher for his entire life, he never spent money abusing anything, he doesnt abuse medication, to a point where we worry for him because he doesnt want to become like other elders who become junkies (my grand mother for example).
So you're telling me that because your grandma exists, we should kill my grandfather, and he should "hurry up and die"? Thats your logic? Taking a single example and apply it to the rest? I repeat, this guy is more intelligent that anyone I've seen and his brain didnt slow down at any point, maybe he's an exception, to be honest I've never seen anything like it, but others exist.
And by the way, my grandma was in good mental shape, but she broke her hip and reacted badly to the anesthesia when they had to "open her up" (operate her? you guys say that in english right?), and became really slow "mentally", she had previously asked for us to let her die peacefully and not worry about her, so I guess my family did even if it's illegal, she died in her son's arms, so I understand the point, trust me, but generalizing elders because of part of them is incredibly stupid, and it's really easy to discuss when you're 20+ and in good health "oh yeah let them die, more money for me", wake the fuck up if you want to find solutions to our societies' expenses you're not looking at the right place...
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On January 24 2013 18:12 mahO wrote:
I love how most of you guys answer NO, it's fucking depressing, let us ask you that question when you'll be 80, 95% Yes, do you want to keep your grandma alive? 90% Yes (yeah 10% got issues). Of course people should have access to health care, even if they are old, they paid taxes all their life ffs? It doesnt mean we should operate at any cost anyone, but good treatment is mandatory in a half decent society. If people really, actually think that health care is what makes our societies living on a huge debt, you guys need to get informed
Edit : And about Japan we cant even compare due to the cultural differences, elders in Japan might actually kill themselves to avoid being a huge charge for their families, it's something that would very rarely happen in the rest of the world, using Japan as an introduction to that debate is imho a really poor idea, especially when you read the quote from Taro Aso
If I turn 80 and I can't do any basic bodily function without the aid of machines and can't perceive the world around me, I would rather die.
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On January 24 2013 18:35 ConGee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 18:12 mahO wrote:
I love how most of you guys answer NO, it's fucking depressing, let us ask you that question when you'll be 80, 95% Yes, do you want to keep your grandma alive? 90% Yes (yeah 10% got issues). Of course people should have access to health care, even if they are old, they paid taxes all their life ffs? It doesnt mean we should operate at any cost anyone, but good treatment is mandatory in a half decent society. If people really, actually think that health care is what makes our societies living on a huge debt, you guys need to get informed
Edit : And about Japan we cant even compare due to the cultural differences, elders in Japan might actually kill themselves to avoid being a huge charge for their families, it's something that would very rarely happen in the rest of the world, using Japan as an introduction to that debate is imho a really poor idea, especially when you read the quote from Taro Aso If I turn 80 and I can't do any basic bodily function without the aid of machines and can't perceive the world around me, I would rather die.
Save those words for your eightieth birthday.
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Congratulations on writting a piece that is making people vote NO to the right to live.
Shows how manipulable people are. Now, all of you who voted no, I demand your death. Now.
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It's not a "right" when you can't be alive without the aid of chemicals and machines man. All this obsessive clinging to life is just a reflection of the altogether materialistic society we live in.
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I think questions like these is the reason why a state controlled insurance system as in Germany is not bad at all.
Basically you force everybody by law to have an insurance and you control by law what indemnification (is that the right word?) the insurances offer and at what price. The insurance companies themselves then only compete with each other in overall service and some other bonus stuff (free health courses and such).
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On January 24 2013 18:38 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 18:35 ConGee wrote:On January 24 2013 18:12 mahO wrote:
I love how most of you guys answer NO, it's fucking depressing, let us ask you that question when you'll be 80, 95% Yes, do you want to keep your grandma alive? 90% Yes (yeah 10% got issues). Of course people should have access to health care, even if they are old, they paid taxes all their life ffs? It doesnt mean we should operate at any cost anyone, but good treatment is mandatory in a half decent society. If people really, actually think that health care is what makes our societies living on a huge debt, you guys need to get informed
Edit : And about Japan we cant even compare due to the cultural differences, elders in Japan might actually kill themselves to avoid being a huge charge for their families, it's something that would very rarely happen in the rest of the world, using Japan as an introduction to that debate is imho a really poor idea, especially when you read the quote from Taro Aso If I turn 80 and I can't do any basic bodily function without the aid of machines and can't perceive the world around me, I would rather die. Save those words for your eightieth birthday.
Nope, he should go and write a patient's provision stating exactly that, if he means it.
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On January 24 2013 18:35 ConGee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 18:12 mahO wrote:
I love how most of you guys answer NO, it's fucking depressing, let us ask you that question when you'll be 80, 95% Yes, do you want to keep your grandma alive? 90% Yes (yeah 10% got issues). Of course people should have access to health care, even if they are old, they paid taxes all their life ffs? It doesnt mean we should operate at any cost anyone, but good treatment is mandatory in a half decent society. If people really, actually think that health care is what makes our societies living on a huge debt, you guys need to get informed
Edit : And about Japan we cant even compare due to the cultural differences, elders in Japan might actually kill themselves to avoid being a huge charge for their families, it's something that would very rarely happen in the rest of the world, using Japan as an introduction to that debate is imho a really poor idea, especially when you read the quote from Taro Aso If I turn 80 and I can't do any basic bodily function without the aid of machines and can't perceive the world around me, I would rather die.
It doesnt work like that, in that situation you will do everything to keep living and not die. Its hardcoded into humans.
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EPT
