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On January 21 2013 14:19 warshop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 14:03 Dawski wrote:
Our political views, in Canada, are seen as socialist, but is that a bad sign? Is it so wrong that we fight for different causes?
This is a trend I am noticing in some posts. It seems people are making the assumption that the rest of canada, while being a little farther on the right, dislikes the fact that Quebec is more Socialist. I never once heard someone complain about Quebecs political stance other than how it effects their own province. edit: I suppose I should go farther on this topic to get my opinion across on parties like PQ and the separatist mentality. A democratic country thrives in an environment of having mutliple different political stances. That's how true government and a good oposition are created. I never understood how Quebec having a different political stance than the rest of canada is a good argument for separation Don't misquote me though. The fact that I am saying that we are seen as socialist does not mean that I think the rest of the Canada complain about people from Quebec. What I'm implying is that people from Quebec generally have different ideas and I'm asking if it's wrong that we have different ideas. Also, the separation never been about a different political stance, it has always been about a different cultural stance.
Ok sry didn't mean to misquote it's just the sentiment I got from both yours and anothers post, but then to answer your question. No, It's obviously not wrong to have different ideas from the rest as long as they actually make sense for you and aren't there just because culturally you have to be.
For example: From my post on page 5 I believe I explain how I'm pretty connected to the Quebec situation all the way here in BC through my french fiancee. One thing I hear from her about her relatives is that a lot of them identify as catholic but don't actually practice it. It's more of a cultural preservation thing which me being an anglophone from BC, who doesn't want to sound like an ignorant prick, can't help but say that is a bit odd.
Edit: Okay maybe odd isn't the best word to use but what I mean by that is -
I don't understand how the idea of preserving a culture that the majority of the population doesn't necessarily agree with just for the sole reason of preserving it makes sense.
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On January 21 2013 14:31 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 14:19 warshop wrote:On January 21 2013 14:03 Dawski wrote:
Our political views, in Canada, are seen as socialist, but is that a bad sign? Is it so wrong that we fight for different causes?
This is a trend I am noticing in some posts. It seems people are making the assumption that the rest of canada, while being a little farther on the right, dislikes the fact that Quebec is more Socialist. I never once heard someone complain about Quebecs political stance other than how it effects their own province. edit: I suppose I should go farther on this topic to get my opinion across on parties like PQ and the separatist mentality. A democratic country thrives in an environment of having mutliple different political stances. That's how true government and a good oposition are created. I never understood how Quebec having a different political stance than the rest of canada is a good argument for separation Don't misquote me though. The fact that I am saying that we are seen as socialist does not mean that I think the rest of the Canada complain about people from Quebec. What I'm implying is that people from Quebec generally have different ideas and I'm asking if it's wrong that we have different ideas. Also, the separation never been about a different political stance, it has always been about a different cultural stance. Ok sry didn't mean to misquote it's just the sentiment I got from both yours and anothers post, but then to answer your question. No, It's obviously not wrong to have different ideas from the rest as long as they actually make sense for you and aren't there just because culturally you have to be. For example: From my post on page 5 I believe I explain how I'm pretty connected to the Quebec situation all the way here in BC through my french fiancee. One thing I hear from her about her relatives is that a lot of them identify as catholic but don't actually practice it. It's more of a cultural preservation thing which me being an anglophone from BC, who doesn't want to sound like an ignorant prick, can't help but say that is a bit odd.
Haha, not to worry, I just wanted to explain what I truly meant to say. God we're such Canadians, we're excusing ourselves, hahaha <3
To reply to your original post on the 5th page, I believe that's just people in general. I see Canadians (everyone, French or English) as an open-minded culture in general (see the ones that do travel), yet there are still those that have a difficulty in change. They may speak French or they may speak English, but I doubt that has to do with anything.
Some people aren't comfortable leaving their zone of comfort (like learning a new language). Personally, as I mentioned previously, I'm a French Canadian, but I love to learn new languages, visit new cultures. If I have to see a foreign movie, I will watch that movie in its language. I believe it brings forth much more than dubbed movies.
So in retrospective, I don't think it's because she's French that she doesn't want to learn a new language. My Grandmother is a French Canadian and loves to tell me stories about her different trips. When I was younger, she kept telling about words in different languages and what they meant and how to pronounce them. She's 76.
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On January 21 2013 14:41 warshop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 14:31 Dawski wrote:On January 21 2013 14:19 warshop wrote:On January 21 2013 14:03 Dawski wrote:
Our political views, in Canada, are seen as socialist, but is that a bad sign? Is it so wrong that we fight for different causes?
This is a trend I am noticing in some posts. It seems people are making the assumption that the rest of canada, while being a little farther on the right, dislikes the fact that Quebec is more Socialist. I never once heard someone complain about Quebecs political stance other than how it effects their own province. edit: I suppose I should go farther on this topic to get my opinion across on parties like PQ and the separatist mentality. A democratic country thrives in an environment of having mutliple different political stances. That's how true government and a good oposition are created. I never understood how Quebec having a different political stance than the rest of canada is a good argument for separation Don't misquote me though. The fact that I am saying that we are seen as socialist does not mean that I think the rest of the Canada complain about people from Quebec. What I'm implying is that people from Quebec generally have different ideas and I'm asking if it's wrong that we have different ideas. Also, the separation never been about a different political stance, it has always been about a different cultural stance. Ok sry didn't mean to misquote it's just the sentiment I got from both yours and anothers post, but then to answer your question. No, It's obviously not wrong to have different ideas from the rest as long as they actually make sense for you and aren't there just because culturally you have to be. For example: From my post on page 5 I believe I explain how I'm pretty connected to the Quebec situation all the way here in BC through my french fiancee. One thing I hear from her about her relatives is that a lot of them identify as catholic but don't actually practice it. It's more of a cultural preservation thing which me being an anglophone from BC, who doesn't want to sound like an ignorant prick, can't help but say that is a bit odd. Haha, not to worry, I just wanted to explain what I truly meant to say. God we're such Canadians, we're excusing ourselves, hahaha <3 To reply to your original post on the 5th page, I believe that's just people in general. I see Canadians (everyone, French or English) as an open-minded culture in general (see the ones that do travel), yet there are still those that have a difficulty in change. They may speak French or they may speak English, but I doubt that has to do with anything. Some people aren't comfortable leaving their zone of comfort (like learning a new language). Personally, as I mentioned previously, I'm a French Canadian, but I love to learn new languages, visit new cultures. If I have to see a foreign movie, I will watch that movie in its language. I believe it brings forth much more than dubbed movies. So in retrospective, I don't think it's because she's French that she doesn't want to learn a new language. My Grandmother is a French Canadian and loves to tell me stories about her different trips. When I was younger, she kept telling about words in different languages and what they meant and how to pronounce them. She's 76.
Hahaha <3
Yeah, I've come to same conclusion myself seeing as how I know her well and she's a very nice lady just like anyone else out there. With that post I was just trying to delve into the many different conflicts that cause a disunity between people.
Man when I talk to people on here I really don't understand how this is a problem at all ^^
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On January 21 2013 14:48 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 14:41 warshop wrote:On January 21 2013 14:31 Dawski wrote:On January 21 2013 14:19 warshop wrote:On January 21 2013 14:03 Dawski wrote:
Our political views, in Canada, are seen as socialist, but is that a bad sign? Is it so wrong that we fight for different causes?
This is a trend I am noticing in some posts. It seems people are making the assumption that the rest of canada, while being a little farther on the right, dislikes the fact that Quebec is more Socialist. I never once heard someone complain about Quebecs political stance other than how it effects their own province. edit: I suppose I should go farther on this topic to get my opinion across on parties like PQ and the separatist mentality. A democratic country thrives in an environment of having mutliple different political stances. That's how true government and a good oposition are created. I never understood how Quebec having a different political stance than the rest of canada is a good argument for separation Don't misquote me though. The fact that I am saying that we are seen as socialist does not mean that I think the rest of the Canada complain about people from Quebec. What I'm implying is that people from Quebec generally have different ideas and I'm asking if it's wrong that we have different ideas. Also, the separation never been about a different political stance, it has always been about a different cultural stance. Ok sry didn't mean to misquote it's just the sentiment I got from both yours and anothers post, but then to answer your question. No, It's obviously not wrong to have different ideas from the rest as long as they actually make sense for you and aren't there just because culturally you have to be. For example: From my post on page 5 I believe I explain how I'm pretty connected to the Quebec situation all the way here in BC through my french fiancee. One thing I hear from her about her relatives is that a lot of them identify as catholic but don't actually practice it. It's more of a cultural preservation thing which me being an anglophone from BC, who doesn't want to sound like an ignorant prick, can't help but say that is a bit odd. Haha, not to worry, I just wanted to explain what I truly meant to say. God we're such Canadians, we're excusing ourselves, hahaha <3 To reply to your original post on the 5th page, I believe that's just people in general. I see Canadians (everyone, French or English) as an open-minded culture in general (see the ones that do travel), yet there are still those that have a difficulty in change. They may speak French or they may speak English, but I doubt that has to do with anything. Some people aren't comfortable leaving their zone of comfort (like learning a new language). Personally, as I mentioned previously, I'm a French Canadian, but I love to learn new languages, visit new cultures. If I have to see a foreign movie, I will watch that movie in its language. I believe it brings forth much more than dubbed movies. So in retrospective, I don't think it's because she's French that she doesn't want to learn a new language. My Grandmother is a French Canadian and loves to tell me stories about her different trips. When I was younger, she kept telling about words in different languages and what they meant and how to pronounce them. She's 76. Hahaha <3 Yeah, I've come to same conclusion myself seeing as how I know her well and she's a very nice lady just like anyone else out there. With that post I was just trying to delve into the many different conflicts that cause a disunity between people. Man when I talk to people on here I really don't understand how this is a problem at all ^^
What I learned in life, is that it's most of the times the unhappy people that scream the loudest (it is completely normal). To be honest, we have many problems as a society, but identifying them and trying to fix them is what makes us a better and greater nation. I love the quote "imperfection makes perfection."
P.S.: I agree with you. I am proud to say, when I'm on vacation, that I'm a Canadian. And a French Canadian too! I love Quebec though, don't get me wrong 
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For anglophones that feel Quebec is rude or how they are sometimes discriminated against. I'm curious, because have you ever been an immigrant to another part of the world ? Where you don't speak the language ? Not talking about a 1week vacation, but like 1 year living elsewhere.
I mean... I'm french (from France), and I live in Montreal. And I still get discriminated against or get rude comments from time to time. Not because of my language. Just because of bullshit. I got rude comments while I was travelling in the US and in Italy too.
To me what you're experiencing is just... normal. Sad but normal, that's just how some people react to "the stranger".
While you're not technically an immigrant though, you're still almost like one when you're in Quebec and don't speak French. And I guess your "difference" is just something that is more apparent when it comes to not being able to speak the main language and therefore will attract all the morons to be rude to you.
So really... I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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On January 21 2013 13:42 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 12:59 MstrSplntr wrote:I'm too am a ex-west-islander, and this OP is offensive, arrogant and screams ignorance. Change it so quebecers actually want to read the thread . I'm open to real advice in unbiasing my views, but I honestly think the "preserve our culture" bit is complete bullshit, akin to americans who are completely against any type of gun control because it's "their culture". The way I see it, quebec culture isn't "dying", it's evolving. To stop that evolution is a backwards way of thought.
I already spoke of that feeling, but you seem to be hermetic to it.
I guess that Palestine, Ireland, native America, Copts, South Korea, and Tibet are just "bullshit".
Let me put it this way : "to be honest, I believe my culture is superior to the redneck-born alcohol-driven junk culture of english Canada. I'd take Voltaire and Rousseau over McDonalds and Hummers any day."
Wouldn't you be mad ? You consider that it's simple "evolution" just because you think it's progress, or because you don't care because it's not detrimental to your own identity.
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On December 14 2012 03:34 Abraxas514 wrote:
Since the 1970s Quebec has been a very different place since "bill 101". You can't make a sign in English any more, be it the name of your store, your menu, or an advertisement. Forty years later, 90% of Montreal speaks French natively.
Actually, isn't this misleading? I believe the truth is that you can't make an English only sign OR a sign where English is the same size or larger than the French lettering. Something like that, right?
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On January 21 2013 17:44 Jacmert wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 03:34 Abraxas514 wrote:
Since the 1970s Quebec has been a very different place since "bill 101". You can't make a sign in English any more, be it the name of your store, your menu, or an advertisement. Forty years later, 90% of Montreal speaks French natively.
Actually, isn't this misleading? I believe the truth is that you can't make an English only sign OR a sign where English is the same size or larger than the French lettering. Something like that, right?
Yes, you can have both. That, or people don't respect the law.
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Anyways, my two cents on this are that I believe the OP is a bit too-biased and misrepresents things a little bit, but overall I do share his concerns (from an outsider's viewpoint, anyways - I live in BC).
One of the people who posted in this thread made a comment about how the official language laws in Quebec are necessary to help preserve their (French language) culture in the face of overwhelming anglophone cultural/media influences (from the USA and the rest of Canada). While that concern is a legitimate one, it made me realize that part of the whole "problem" is that the majority in Quebec (Francophones) have LEGISLATED measures to enforce and shape their culture in a directly intrusive/suppressive way on the minority (Anglophones). Now, even if what I said is true, I don't know if it's a black & white thing where it's definitely wrong, but it does seem like [the government] has overstepped their bounds/mandate a bit.
It's not like the Quebec government is funding Francophone culture and not funding Anglophone culture (I think that would be fine). And it's not like the Quebec government is requiring all essential services to always be offered in French (this is probably in effect, and I'd support it, too). But it's quite another thing to ban other people's cultures from being expressed. For example, if I went to a French restaurant, and everything on the menu was forced to be in English (or English with smaller French lettering), I would be like, "this sucks. I wanted a French restaurant experience, not this white-washed English treatment). Or if I went to a Chinese restaurant, and they were forced to have their main menu text as English and Chinese lettering had to be secondary, I would be like... "Ok, this isn't very Chinese" (I'm Chinese-Canadian, btw). So this is one of the reasons I feel the French language laws, or the way they are enforced, feel like they are overstepping - in my opinion.
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On January 21 2013 18:12 Jacmert wrote:
Anyways, my two cents on this are that I believe the OP is a bit too-biased and misrepresents things a little bit, but overall I do share his concerns (from an outsider's viewpoint, anyways - I live in BC).
One of the people who posted in this thread made a comment about how the official language laws in Quebec are necessary to help preserve their (French language) culture in the face of overwhelming anglophone cultural/media influences (from the USA and the rest of Canada). While that concern is a legitimate one, it made me realize that part of the whole "problem" is that the majority in Quebec (Francophones) have LEGISLATED measures to enforce and shape their culture in a directly intrusive/suppressive way on the minority (Anglophones). Now, even if what I said is true, I don't know if it's a black & white thing where it's definitely wrong, but it does seem like [the government] has overstepped their bounds/mandate a bit.
It's not like the Quebec government is funding Francophone culture and not funding Anglophone culture (I think that would be fine). And it's not like the Quebec government is requiring all essential services to always be offered in French (this is probably in effect, and I'd support it, too). But it's quite another thing to ban other people's cultures from being expressed. For example, if I went to a French restaurant, and everything on the menu was forced to be in English (or English with smaller French lettering), I would be like, "this sucks. I wanted a French restaurant experience, not this white-washed English treatment). Or if I went to a Chinese restaurant, and they were forced to have their main menu text as English and Chinese lettering had to be secondary, I would be like... "Ok, this isn't very Chinese" (I'm Chinese-Canadian, btw). So this is one of the reasons I feel the French language laws, or the way they are enforced, feel like they are overstepping - in my opinion.
Until the 70's, before bill 101 was passed, things were different in Quebec, especially in Montreal. You would go to a Sears, Eaton, many big stores downtown and you would have a hard time getting served in french. Also, the majority of business managers and executives didn't speak a single word of french, although the vast majority of their staff was francophone. The OP dared mentionning anglophones being treated as second-class citizen now, which is hilarious, because francophones WERE second-class citizen in Montreal back then, although they represented the vast majority of the population.
Many people, especially young anglophones don't have this kind of historical perspective today and they think they're being mistreated. They don't understand that francophones represent less than 2% of the total population of North America, without laws to enforce some basic things, in long term, it's over.
If you give someone the choice between english and french, whether it's for publicity or for their children's education, that person will always choose english first, it's the logical choice. Without laws, the french language is fighting an uphill battle in North America that is virtually impossible to win.
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On January 21 2013 21:45 lepape wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:12 Jacmert wrote:
Anyways, my two cents on this are that I believe the OP is a bit too-biased and misrepresents things a little bit, but overall I do share his concerns (from an outsider's viewpoint, anyways - I live in BC).
One of the people who posted in this thread made a comment about how the official language laws in Quebec are necessary to help preserve their (French language) culture in the face of overwhelming anglophone cultural/media influences (from the USA and the rest of Canada). While that concern is a legitimate one, it made me realize that part of the whole "problem" is that the majority in Quebec (Francophones) have LEGISLATED measures to enforce and shape their culture in a directly intrusive/suppressive way on the minority (Anglophones). Now, even if what I said is true, I don't know if it's a black & white thing where it's definitely wrong, but it does seem like [the government] has overstepped their bounds/mandate a bit.
It's not like the Quebec government is funding Francophone culture and not funding Anglophone culture (I think that would be fine). And it's not like the Quebec government is requiring all essential services to always be offered in French (this is probably in effect, and I'd support it, too). But it's quite another thing to ban other people's cultures from being expressed. For example, if I went to a French restaurant, and everything on the menu was forced to be in English (or English with smaller French lettering), I would be like, "this sucks. I wanted a French restaurant experience, not this white-washed English treatment). Or if I went to a Chinese restaurant, and they were forced to have their main menu text as English and Chinese lettering had to be secondary, I would be like... "Ok, this isn't very Chinese" (I'm Chinese-Canadian, btw). So this is one of the reasons I feel the French language laws, or the way they are enforced, feel like they are overstepping - in my opinion. Until the 70's, before bill 101 was passed, things were different in Quebec, especially in Montreal. You would go to a Sears, Eaton, many big stores downtown and you would have a hard time getting served in french. Also, the majority of business managers and executives didn't speak a single word of french, although the vast majority of their staff was francophone. The OP dared mentionning anglophones being treated as second-class citizen now, which is hilarious, because francophones WERE second-class citizen in Montreal back then, although they represented the vast majority of the population. Many people, especially young anglophones don't have this kind of historical perspective today and they think they're being mistreated. They don't understand that francophones represent less than 2% of the total population of North America, without laws to enforce some basic things, in long term, it's over. If you give someone the choice between english and french, whether it's for publicity or for their children's education, that person will always choose english first, it's the logical choice. Without laws, the french language is fighting an uphill battle in North America that is virtually impossible to win.
And many french canadians don't understand the fundamental argument from our side. We think it's fine you guys push french everywhere, we just think it's NOT fine to eliminate english. Quebec should have been, and should be, a bilingual province. You wouldn't have lost all those company headquarters, tax dollars, doctors, engineers, lawyers, professors, and people who didn't want to risk the referendum going 1% the wrong way.
The truth is Anglophones are a minority that are prevented from using their language without a french watchdog. Not all quebec services are offered in english by the way, many times I've gotten letters from the quebec city court and I needed to ask for a translation at city hall.
Remember, you may be 2% of north america's population, but you are 78.1% of Quebec's population while anglophones are just 7.7%.
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On January 21 2013 21:45 lepape wrote:
If you give someone the choice between english and french, whether it's for publicity or for their children's education, that person will always choose english first, it's the logical choice. Without laws, the french language is fighting an uphill battle in North America that is virtually impossible to win.
Is that such a bad thing then? It seems like natural development, it's a tiny speck of french culture in a sea of english culture, obviously the influence is 100% one-directional. Seems weird to make discriminating laws etc to try to battle this force, which probably won't be stopped anyway. Though maybe this is just my views because it's such a weird situation for a person like me from a country which isn't bilingual in the slightest, but it sounds weird to me that quebecians feel their culture will be destroyed unless they force everyone to speak french, while american natives etc still have their culture and language even though they really have no laws at all protecting them, it just means they are perfectly fluent in English as well.
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On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
And many french canadians don't understand the fundamental argument from our side. We think it's fine you guys push french everywhere, we just think it's NOT fine to eliminate english. Quebec should have been, and should be, a bilingual province.
Please tell me, where are you not allowed to write in english, or to speak english? Where has english been eliminated exactly? Btw I'm from the West Island too and let me tell you, if you really think english has been eliminated anywhere, I don't think we even live on the same planet.
On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
You wouldn't have lost all those company headquarters, tax dollars, doctors, engineers, lawyers, professors, and people who didn't want to risk the referendum going 1% the wrong way.
After receiving some low-cost education, these professions are being offered much better wages in the US and in other provinces, don't give me the whole ''secession is making them scared'' BS. Just like in most aspects of our lives, money is the deciding factor here.
On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
''Not all quebec services are offered in english by the way, many times I've gotten letters from the quebec city court and I needed to ask for a translation at city hall.
If you received a translation, why are you saying not all services are offered in english?
On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
Remember, you may be 2% of north america's population, but you are 78.1% of Quebec's population while anglophones are just 7.7%.
And this number slowly but surely keeps getting lower, in favor to the english side.
Are you concerned that your great-great-grandchildren might not share your cultural identity or your langage, because you are a minority here? Look, this is a difficult concept to comprehend, because most nations take their cultural identity for granted. But for francophones in Quebec, losing our cultural heritage is a legitimate long-term concern. Now you might say this is unrealistic or unimportant, but until you even try to care about this aspect, I don't think you'll ever understand anything about this whole debate.
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On January 21 2013 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 21:45 lepape wrote:
If you give someone the choice between english and french, whether it's for publicity or for their children's education, that person will always choose english first, it's the logical choice. Without laws, the french language is fighting an uphill battle in North America that is virtually impossible to win. Is that such a bad thing then? It seems like natural development, it's a tiny speck of french culture in a sea of english culture, obviously the influence is 100% one-directional. Seems weird to make discriminating laws etc to try to battle this force, which probably won't be stopped anyway. Though maybe this is just my views because it's such a weird situation for a person like me from a country which isn't bilingual in the slightest, but it sounds weird to me that quebecians feel their culture will be destroyed unless they force everyone to speak french, while american natives etc still have their culture and language even though they really have no laws at all protecting them, it just means they are perfectly fluent in English as well.
Natives in many cases live in 'reserves' which are separated from society for the most part. And to say that they preserve their culture is a bit misleading considering that we've been shitting all over it and they're nothing like their former selves.
You ask if it's a bad thing that people would choose English over French - well that's purely subjective. Like I said before, some people want to preserve the culture, others are more interested in efficiency and such. If you're on one side, naturally you'll think the other is silly - but that's the nature of the human heart is it not? We value some things over others.
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On January 21 2013 23:49 lepape wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
And many french canadians don't understand the fundamental argument from our side. We think it's fine you guys push french everywhere, we just think it's NOT fine to eliminate english. Quebec should have been, and should be, a bilingual province. Please tell me, where are you not allowed to write in english, or to speak english? Where has english been eliminated exactly? Btw I'm from the West Island too and let me tell you, if you really think english has been eliminated anywhere, I don't think we even live on the same planet. Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
You wouldn't have lost all those company headquarters, tax dollars, doctors, engineers, lawyers, professors, and people who didn't want to risk the referendum going 1% the wrong way. After receiving some low-cost education, these professions are being offered much better wages in the US and in other provinces, don't give me the whole ''secession is making them scared'' BS. Just like in most aspects of our lives, money is the deciding factor here. Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
''Not all quebec services are offered in english by the way, many times I've gotten letters from the quebec city court and I needed to ask for a translation at city hall. If you received a translation, why are you saying not all services are offered in english? Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
Remember, you may be 2% of north america's population, but you are 78.1% of Quebec's population while anglophones are just 7.7%. And this number slowly but surely keeps getting lower, in favor to the english side. Are you concerned that your great-great-grandchildren might not share your cultural identity or your langage, because you are a minority here? Look, this is a difficult concept to comprehend, because most nations take their cultural identity for granted. But for francophones in Quebec, losing our cultural heritage is a legitimate long-term concern. Now you might say this is unimportant, but until you even try to care about this aspect, I don't think you'll ever understand anything about this whole debate.
Your great great grandchildren might very well not share your cultural identity or language regardless. Maybe your grandchild decides he doesn't want to live where you do and moves to the US, or Spain, or China. Boom, now your great great grandchildren speak Chinese, and nothing your politicians did now meant anything. Just like you might not share too much with your ancestors from France, if you go back far enough.
The important factor here, is that your great great grandchildren won't give a crap. It's not like they will wake up one day and think "Damn, I wish my great great grandfather voted for party X so that I would be speaking french instead of english" because that's not how it works, just like I'm not pissed that I speak swedish instead of danish (I live in southern sweden, which historically belonged to denmark). It doesn't matter to me, since this is how I grew up.
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On January 21 2013 23:49 lepape wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
And many french canadians don't understand the fundamental argument from our side. We think it's fine you guys push french everywhere, we just think it's NOT fine to eliminate english. Quebec should have been, and should be, a bilingual province. Please tell me, where are you not allowed to write in english, or to speak english? Where has english been eliminated exactly? Btw I'm from the West Island too and let me tell you, if you really think english has been eliminated anywhere, I don't think we even live on the same planet. Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
You wouldn't have lost all those company headquarters, tax dollars, doctors, engineers, lawyers, professors, and people who didn't want to risk the referendum going 1% the wrong way. After receiving some low-cost education, these professions are being offered much better wages in the US and in other provinces, don't give me the whole ''secession is making them scared'' BS. Just like in most aspects of our lives, money is the deciding factor here. Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
''Not all quebec services are offered in english by the way, many times I've gotten letters from the quebec city court and I needed to ask for a translation at city hall. If you received a translation, why are you saying not all services are offered in english? Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
Remember, you may be 2% of north america's population, but you are 78.1% of Quebec's population while anglophones are just 7.7%. And this number slowly but surely keeps getting lower, in favor to the english side. Are you concerned that your great-great-grandchildren might not share your cultural identity or your langage, because you are a minority here? Look, this is a difficult concept to comprehend, because most nations take their cultural identity for granted. But for francophones in Quebec, losing our cultural heritage is a legitimate long-term concern. Now you might say this is unrealistic or unimportant, but until you even try to care about this aspect, I don't think you'll ever understand anything about this whole debate.
The 'translation' is me asking the person at the guichet what it means, not QC sending me a paper in english. Also, certain income tax forms are no longer available in english (I think this is mainly corporate forms).
Instead of worrying about loosing your culture, and imposing legislation that is completely against liberal socierty trends, you should work hard at adding the best elements of your culture to canadian culture in general. Be part of the system, not a vacuum sealed section that is only technically considered part of the greater machine.
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On January 22 2013 00:06 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 23:49 lepape wrote:On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
And many french canadians don't understand the fundamental argument from our side. We think it's fine you guys push french everywhere, we just think it's NOT fine to eliminate english. Quebec should have been, and should be, a bilingual province. Please tell me, where are you not allowed to write in english, or to speak english? Where has english been eliminated exactly? Btw I'm from the West Island too and let me tell you, if you really think english has been eliminated anywhere, I don't think we even live on the same planet. On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
You wouldn't have lost all those company headquarters, tax dollars, doctors, engineers, lawyers, professors, and people who didn't want to risk the referendum going 1% the wrong way. After receiving some low-cost education, these professions are being offered much better wages in the US and in other provinces, don't give me the whole ''secession is making them scared'' BS. Just like in most aspects of our lives, money is the deciding factor here. On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
''Not all quebec services are offered in english by the way, many times I've gotten letters from the quebec city court and I needed to ask for a translation at city hall. If you received a translation, why are you saying not all services are offered in english? On January 21 2013 23:25 Abraxas514 wrote:
Remember, you may be 2% of north america's population, but you are 78.1% of Quebec's population while anglophones are just 7.7%. And this number slowly but surely keeps getting lower, in favor to the english side. Are you concerned that your great-great-grandchildren might not share your cultural identity or your langage, because you are a minority here? Look, this is a difficult concept to comprehend, because most nations take their cultural identity for granted. But for francophones in Quebec, losing our cultural heritage is a legitimate long-term concern. Now you might say this is unrealistic or unimportant, but until you even try to care about this aspect, I don't think you'll ever understand anything about this whole debate. The 'translation' is me asking the person at the guichet what it means, not QC sending me a paper in english. Also, certain income tax forms are no longer available in english (I think this is mainly corporate forms). Instead of worrying about loosing your culture, and imposing legislation that is completely against liberal socierty trends, you should work hard at adding the best elements of your culture to canadian culture in general. Be part of the system, not a vacuum sealed section that is only technically considered part of the greater machine.
Canada is a bilingual country
Quebec is a bilingual province
You expect services in English -everywhere-. Watch me try to get services in French when I go to BC. No. I speak English there. I know you can pull the numbers here but what percentage of Francophones do we need to have parked over there for BC to start spending money on bilingual provincial services?
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On January 21 2013 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 21:45 lepape wrote:
If you give someone the choice between english and french, whether it's for publicity or for their children's education, that person will always choose english first, it's the logical choice. Without laws, the french language is fighting an uphill battle in North America that is virtually impossible to win. Is that such a bad thing then? It seems like natural development, it's a tiny speck of french culture in a sea of english culture, obviously the influence is 100% one-directional. Seems weird to make discriminating laws etc to try to battle this force, which probably won't be stopped anyway. Though maybe this is just my views because it's such a weird situation for a person like me from a country which isn't bilingual in the slightest, but it sounds weird to me that quebecians feel their culture will be destroyed unless they force everyone to speak french, while american natives etc still have their culture and language even though they really have no laws at all protecting them, it just means they are perfectly fluent in English as well.
You're right, we're pretty dumb to even try to protect what we are, let's just all assimilate and get done with this useless language already.
And the natives is a whole other topic, let's just say that they're just not a good exemple of a culture being well-preserved at all, they're actually pretty much the worst example to bring up. They have many laws helping them, at least in Quebec most of them don't even know their native language, or poorly (part of the problem is due to the fact those languages have no written tradition).
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On January 22 2013 00:11 lepape wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:On January 21 2013 21:45 lepape wrote:
If you give someone the choice between english and french, whether it's for publicity or for their children's education, that person will always choose english first, it's the logical choice. Without laws, the french language is fighting an uphill battle in North America that is virtually impossible to win. Is that such a bad thing then? It seems like natural development, it's a tiny speck of french culture in a sea of english culture, obviously the influence is 100% one-directional. Seems weird to make discriminating laws etc to try to battle this force, which probably won't be stopped anyway. Though maybe this is just my views because it's such a weird situation for a person like me from a country which isn't bilingual in the slightest, but it sounds weird to me that quebecians feel their culture will be destroyed unless they force everyone to speak french, while american natives etc still have their culture and language even though they really have no laws at all protecting them, it just means they are perfectly fluent in English as well. You're right, we're pretty dumb to even try to protect what we are, let's just all assimilate and get done with this useless language already. And the natives is a whole other topic, let's just say that they're just not a good exemple of a culture being well-preserved at all, they're actually pretty much the worst example to bring up. They have many laws helping them, at least in Quebec most of them don't even know their native language, our poorly (part of the problem is due to the fact those languages have no written tradition).
It's funny when a dude from Sweden says 'oh yeah post-genocide natives are just dandy'.
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On January 22 2013 00:14 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 00:11 lepape wrote:On January 21 2013 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:On January 21 2013 21:45 lepape wrote:
If you give someone the choice between english and french, whether it's for publicity or for their children's education, that person will always choose english first, it's the logical choice. Without laws, the french language is fighting an uphill battle in North America that is virtually impossible to win. Is that such a bad thing then? It seems like natural development, it's a tiny speck of french culture in a sea of english culture, obviously the influence is 100% one-directional. Seems weird to make discriminating laws etc to try to battle this force, which probably won't be stopped anyway. Though maybe this is just my views because it's such a weird situation for a person like me from a country which isn't bilingual in the slightest, but it sounds weird to me that quebecians feel their culture will be destroyed unless they force everyone to speak french, while american natives etc still have their culture and language even though they really have no laws at all protecting them, it just means they are perfectly fluent in English as well. You're right, we're pretty dumb to even try to protect what we are, let's just all assimilate and get done with this useless language already. And the natives is a whole other topic, let's just say that they're just not a good exemple of a culture being well-preserved at all, they're actually pretty much the worst example to bring up. They have many laws helping them, at least in Quebec most of them don't even know their native language, our poorly (part of the problem is due to the fact those languages have no written tradition). It's funny when a dude from Sweden says 'oh yeah post-genocide natives are just dandy'.
How is that funny, and how is that what I said?
My point was that just because your culture isn't protected by laws doesn't mean it disappears. Say french and english are given 100% equal "rights" in Quebec, will everyone speak English there 200 years from now? Probably, though that would happen eventually anyway if that was the case. But it also wouldn't mean that 20 years from now, only 5% of the population there speaks French.
It's such a weird situation especially because it's allowed by modern times. If something like this happened 400 years ago and a very small minority in a small part of a country tried to protect their culture by laws, they would have been kicked out. Nowadays, instead, there has to be protective barriers put up, which really only delay the innevitable. If you give equal space to both, the part which people prefer will succeed.
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EPT
