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On January 20 2013 06:52 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 06:45 Kukaracha wrote:On January 20 2013 06:35 Abraxas514 wrote:The "purelaine" (purelaine) french have this idea that keeping their culture intact means refusing to assimilate into the rest of canada. But this is completely backwards. Canada doesn't try to assimilate anyone, instead they should follow canada's "mosaic" viewpoint into multiculturalism instead of the "melting pot" they are trying to create. To be honest I haven't witnessed any long-lasting multicultural societies... success always ends up in positive assimilation. Multiculturalism is a vague state where different cultures live together, but it doesn't last long when seen from an historical point of view. I know very little about the specifics of the Canadian situation, but this is how I feel about it as well. If the two sides are truly that antagonistic, they can't co-exist successfully forever. Multicultural societies have a way of falling apart.
I don't think that they have "a way of falling apart", in fact I'd argue the contrary, since most nations in today's world are the direct results of centuries of assimilation. The odd new factor here is the rarification of force usage, as cultural conflicts used to end violently one way or the other.
The real question would be : do francophones and anglophones durably dislike each other ? I don't think it's that easy to answer, because from my experience the new generation is very positive towards the english culture and heritage (damn traitors).
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On January 21 2013 00:50 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 06:52 Kimaker wrote:On January 20 2013 06:45 Kukaracha wrote:On January 20 2013 06:35 Abraxas514 wrote:The "purelaine" (purelaine) french have this idea that keeping their culture intact means refusing to assimilate into the rest of canada. But this is completely backwards. Canada doesn't try to assimilate anyone, instead they should follow canada's "mosaic" viewpoint into multiculturalism instead of the "melting pot" they are trying to create. To be honest I haven't witnessed any long-lasting multicultural societies... success always ends up in positive assimilation. Multiculturalism is a vague state where different cultures live together, but it doesn't last long when seen from an historical point of view. I know very little about the specifics of the Canadian situation, but this is how I feel about it as well. If the two sides are truly that antagonistic, they can't co-exist successfully forever. Multicultural societies have a way of falling apart. I don't think that they have "a way of falling apart", in fact I'd argue the contrary, since most nations in today's world are the direct results of centuries of assimilation. The odd new factor here is the rarification of force usage, as cultural conflicts used to end violently one way or the other. The real question would be : do francophones and anglophones durably dislike each other ? I don't think it's that easy to answer, because from my experience the new generation is very positive towards the english culture and heritage (damn traitors).
It's not anglophones and francophones, it's specifically those two specific subsets of anglophones and francophones which have a way of nearly systematically perpetuating the negative feelings toward each other.
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this thread is terrible and is so full of inaccuracies like the guy saying "all the universities are in the south" or the other dude who says "LOL the CROWN hahaha its not 1904 anymore" or some other asshole that is ripping french spoken in Quebec as a "bastardized english version of french"
this is basically endless bs on a forum that is supposed to have a higher standard on the way people should expose facts and opinions lol.
seriously Canada is awesome cause for basically 250 years two different nations ( english ppl and french ones - dont bash me for leaving out the natives ) have founded/built/thrived in a fine country without killing each other.
Meanwhile you had plenty of shitstorms when 2 nations in the same country didnt get along ( just to name a few of the recent ones ; Bosnia, Rwanda, etc. ) So stop breaking my fucking ballz about how you think Alberta is way moar awesome than some vague idea you have about a party that wont be in power until the end of the winter but has been a part of the political scene since 1968. Stop posting shit like they were the muslim broterhood of french separatism. They are not.
Havent voted for them, probably never will btw.
this thread is a great example of why french ppl and english ppl dislike each other; making statements about stuff you dont know/dont understand tends to be frustrating for the one who is being judged/misunderstood. ( thats basically how I feel atm lol)
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On January 21 2013 11:11 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
this thread is terrible and is so full of inaccuracies like the guy saying "all the universities are in the south"
I made a map layover of universities versus geography and cities.
EDIT: Also comparing voter areas. I wanted to show that there is a clear trend of location versus political viewpoint.
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On January 21 2013 11:32 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 11:11 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
this thread is terrible and is so full of inaccuracies like the guy saying "all the universities are in the south" I made a map layover of universities versus geography and cities. EDIT: Also comparing voter areas. I wanted to show that there is a clear trend of location versus political viewpoint.
I don't quite understand what you were trying to say though. The universities tend to be located in urban areas basically. So the trend you've determined is clearly a fallacy about cause and effect.
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I'm a french Canadian, from Montreal west island and I can't wait to get out of here. Most of the time I speak English with friends, but when I leave Montreal, sometimes I slip up and greet people in English instead of French and when they realize I speak fluent French, I always get ranted on about how I'm a disgrace and all that kind of stuff. It's quite frustrating, IMO.
As for politics, my biggest issue with the PQ is that they want(ed?) to remove access to English CEGEPs unless you went to English school prior to that? I'm a comp sci student and I personally prefer talking about computer stuff in English, it's just how I've always done it. My reading comprehension in French is complete garbage, so it's another reason I went in English. However, like most French people who go to English CEGEPs, my family speaks French, so I will keep speaking French at home, which means I'm not likely to lose it. I think CEGEP is a point where you should be able to choose which language you want to study in, especially since you can get a career from it, it's better to give you a chance to go into whichever language you're most comfortable in to succeed in life later.
/rant off
I do get a big laugh when I work with an English customer, then greet a new customer in French and they just run off in anger because I said "hi, bonjour" instead of "bonjour, hi". It always makes me giggle that people are that angry about such a little thing. (I still think "hi, bonjour" leads into a french conversation a lot easier than the other way around, but that's just me I guess)
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This is a long-standing tradition as the article state, not meant as an offense.
Now as a french canadian who has been going to english schools most of his life, I like to think I have a good perspective of both sides.
Preface: When you look at the federal electoral map it is very obvious that Quebec as a whole has very different values as the rest of Canada. To put in bluntly, in political terms, Quebec is more socialist, which in itself is not a bad thing, it just has a different set of values. This results in left-wing parties like the liberal party of canada to be considered middle or even right-wing parties. It's then no surprise that the most left-wing party is always elected in Quebec at the federal level. For a long time this was the Bloc Quebecois but has changed recently. Nevertheless, the point remains that Quebec, fundamentally, is very different from Canada.
On a provincial level then, there is a clash of values in the community. It's clear at this point that Quebec will never be separated from Canada regardless if socially this makes sense. Economically it doesn't and it would be a bureaucratic mess. So you have a lot of immigrants from Canada and US mostly but also every part of the world, who have more have a different culture than the rest of Quebec, and you have the rest of Canada who has very different values as Quebec. Can you really fail to see that the Quebec Culture will die very rapidly if nothing is done? I'm the perfect example: I went to english school because it will give me better opportunities in life, and I know little to nothing about my province's culture nor do I care. Of course you can't let them oppress you, but can you really blame them for trying to protect an obviously dying culture?
The PQ is in office today because of the number of corruption scandals within the PLQ, which you seem to favor over the PQ without knowing even knowing their intentions. 'Anything but the PQ' they say. At least they have clear motives. Besides, there is a large percentage of population that always votes for the 'left' and one that always vote for the 'right' because they agree with the fundamental values of that party. Those people don't tip the balance in elections. However, it makes sure that the PQ does keep pushing laws to help retain Quebec culture. It's fine, english people won't be oppressed. It's reasonable to force people to write signs in french as well as english, it's a french province. None of the laws against the english are really a big deal, they're just a whiny bunch for the most part.
TL;DR: You cannot argue that Quebec Culture is dying and whether you care or not is not the rest of the provinces problem. If the PQ is in office today its for two reasons: 1. People care about Quebec Culture, 2. People don't trust other parties as much as they trust the PQ to do a good job. You aren't oppressed so stop complaining, if the majority of people care about Quebec culture and want to protect it, you have to respect that because you are a citizen.
A whole thread because democracy is at work and you're not pleased with the result.
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On January 21 2013 12:25 Steel wrote:
but can you really blame them for trying to protect an obviously dying culture?
can you explain that statement with a series of facts please. yeah you know, since its so obvious.
A whole thread because democracy is at work and you're not pleased with the result.
I agree with that part though. Stop seing the PQ as a big bad wolf. Its just another left-centrist party. No biggie. srsly. Canadians in general should stop worrying about Quebecs independance. If people voted no back when there was no Internet, no immigrants and had Rene Levesque, I doubt it could happen today.
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On January 19 2013 01:20 BallinWitStalin wrote:
That being said, in Montreal there's a general rudeness to everyone, not just francophones. Montreal is a rude city. Drivers, pedestrians, everyone's just....not friendly.
From Alberta, and I have to concur with the statement that I had less pleasant experience when living in Montreal than before. Maybe it's because I am foreigner, don't speak french, simply unlucky or what.
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On January 21 2013 11:11 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
this thread is terrible and is so full of inaccuracies like the guy saying "all the universities are in the south" or the other dude who says "LOL the CROWN hahaha its not 1904 anymore" or some other asshole that is ripping french spoken in Quebec as a "bastardized english version of french"
this is basically endless bs on a forum that is supposed to have a higher standard on the way people should expose facts and opinions lol.
seriously Canada is awesome cause for basically 250 years two different nations ( english ppl and french ones - dont bash me for leaving out the natives ) have founded/built/thrived in a fine country without killing each other.
Meanwhile you had plenty of shitstorms when 2 nations in the same country didnt get along ( just to name a few of the recent ones ; Bosnia, Rwanda, etc. ) So stop breaking my fucking ballz about how you think Alberta is way moar awesome than some vague idea you have about a party that wont be in power until the end of the winter but has been a part of the political scene since 1968. Stop posting shit like they were the muslim broterhood of french separatism. They are not.
Havent voted for them, probably never will btw.
this thread is a great example of why french ppl and english ppl dislike each other; making statements about stuff you dont know/dont understand tends to be frustrating for the one who is being judged/misunderstood. ( thats basically how I feel atm lol)
The "crown" shit may not be that relevant (just a technicality anyway) but it's true.
Also, the Francophones and the Anglophones did "try to kill each other" at one point. It wasn't that big, and things worked out later on, but I'm just saying.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 21 2013 12:39 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 11:11 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
this thread is terrible and is so full of inaccuracies like the guy saying "all the universities are in the south" or the other dude who says "LOL the CROWN hahaha its not 1904 anymore" or some other asshole that is ripping french spoken in Quebec as a "bastardized english version of french"
this is basically endless bs on a forum that is supposed to have a higher standard on the way people should expose facts and opinions lol.
seriously Canada is awesome cause for basically 250 years two different nations ( english ppl and french ones - dont bash me for leaving out the natives ) have founded/built/thrived in a fine country without killing each other.
Meanwhile you had plenty of shitstorms when 2 nations in the same country didnt get along ( just to name a few of the recent ones ; Bosnia, Rwanda, etc. ) So stop breaking my fucking ballz about how you think Alberta is way moar awesome than some vague idea you have about a party that wont be in power until the end of the winter but has been a part of the political scene since 1968. Stop posting shit like they were the muslim broterhood of french separatism. They are not.
Havent voted for them, probably never will btw.
this thread is a great example of why french ppl and english ppl dislike each other; making statements about stuff you dont know/dont understand tends to be frustrating for the one who is being judged/misunderstood. ( thats basically how I feel atm lol)
The "crown" shit may not be that relevant (just a technicality anyway) but it's true.
Also, the Francophones and the Anglophones did "try to kill each other" at one point. It wasn't that big, and things worked out later on, but I'm just saying.
1. The crown shit is still relevant since the fucking queen is on every coin/bill and that technically, the general governor is Harpers boss. You have never seen a criminal trial where the crown requests a 25 years sentence or something to that effect...
2. the 1838 revolts were no more then skirmishes where angry french canadians were fighting red coats =/= other canadians because Durham had published a study that said : '' fuck those frenchies, we should assimilate them, should be done within 20 years, ezpz." Srsly not much in there, its only been used to glorify the separatist movement and show its members their struggle "had roots"
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On January 21 2013 12:49 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
1. The crown shit is still relevant since the fucking queen is on every coin/bill and that technically, the general governor is Harpers boss. You have never seen a criminal trial where the crown requests a 25 years sentence or something to that effect...
2. the 1838 revolts were no more then skirmishes where angry french canadians were fighting red coats =/= other canadians because Durham had published a study that said : '' fuck those frenchies, we should assimilate them, should be done within 20 years, ezpz." Srsly not much in there, its only been used to glorify the separatist movement and show its members their struggle "had roots"
Technically the Queen is Harper's boss and the governor general represents the queen. The GG is NOT Harper's boss, not even technically. But if "the crown" crossed our democratically elected nutter, we'd have a political crisis on our hands that would probably be resolved through amendments to the constitution. The GG would be dismissed and we'd push our royalty mascot further down. As it is, the Governor general says "yes" to everything Harper says. There are also a few other functions which are more useful than just her agreeing to everything, but there really isn't all that much to that job.
And yes we have Elizabeth on some of our money (not all!). We also have beavers on dimes but I'm not the subject of beavers am I. I mean seriously am I a citizen of Canada or a subject of the Queen? Let's be realistic here.
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I'm too am a ex-west-islander, and this OP is offensive, arrogant and screams ignorance. Change it so quebecers actually want to read the thread  .
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On January 21 2013 12:34 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 12:25 Steel wrote:
but can you really blame them for trying to protect an obviously dying culture?
can you explain that statement with a series of facts please. yeah you know, since its so obvious. Show nested quote +A whole thread because democracy is at work and you're not pleased with the result. I agree with that part though. Stop seing the PQ as a big bad wolf. Its just another left-centrist party. No biggie. srsly. Canadians in general should stop worrying about Quebecs independance. If people voted no back when there was no Internet, no immigrants and had Rene Levesque, I doubt it could happen today.
Isn't he an example that explains his statement?
To be honest, I am a French Canadian, grew up in the West Island, some of my friends speak better English than French. I also wanted to go to an English school when I was younger, but I couldn't, since neither of my parents went to one. While I do disagree that some laws are harsh, it is to preserve our culture. It is not because our history didn't start before Jesus Christ that it should not matter less or more than any other culture. Our culture defined us as we are, what we stand for and what we aim to achieve. Our political views, in Canada, are seen as socialist, but is that a bad sign? Is it so wrong that we fight for different causes? No, and we should always remember that. We have much to learn from all the cultures around the world, ours is no different.
Quebec is a mix of people and we should keep homage to what has defined us through the years or risk forgetting it all. "Je me souviens".
Edit: Why was Kurr a notable response to the OT? If anything, it was a personal response...
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On January 21 2013 12:49 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 21 2013 12:39 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 11:11 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
this thread is terrible and is so full of inaccuracies like the guy saying "all the universities are in the south" or the other dude who says "LOL the CROWN hahaha its not 1904 anymore" or some other asshole that is ripping french spoken in Quebec as a "bastardized english version of french"
this is basically endless bs on a forum that is supposed to have a higher standard on the way people should expose facts and opinions lol.
seriously Canada is awesome cause for basically 250 years two different nations ( english ppl and french ones - dont bash me for leaving out the natives ) have founded/built/thrived in a fine country without killing each other.
Meanwhile you had plenty of shitstorms when 2 nations in the same country didnt get along ( just to name a few of the recent ones ; Bosnia, Rwanda, etc. ) So stop breaking my fucking ballz about how you think Alberta is way moar awesome than some vague idea you have about a party that wont be in power until the end of the winter but has been a part of the political scene since 1968. Stop posting shit like they were the muslim broterhood of french separatism. They are not.
Havent voted for them, probably never will btw.
this thread is a great example of why french ppl and english ppl dislike each other; making statements about stuff you dont know/dont understand tends to be frustrating for the one who is being judged/misunderstood. ( thats basically how I feel atm lol) The "crown" shit may not be that relevant (just a technicality anyway) but it's true. Also, the Francophones and the Anglophones did "try to kill each other" at one point. It wasn't that big, and things worked out later on, but I'm just saying. 1. The crown shit is still relevant since the fucking queen is on every coin/bill and that technically, the general governor is Harpers boss. You have never seen a criminal trial where the crown requests a 25 years sentence or something to that effect... 2. the 1838 revolts were no more then skirmishes where angry french canadians were fighting red coats =/= other canadians because Durham had published a study that said : '' fuck those frenchies, we should assimilate them, should be done within 20 years, ezpz." Srsly not much in there, its only been used to glorify the separatist movement and show its members their struggle "had roots"
I think you've got the cause-effect thing wrong here. Durham's report is only after the end of the Rebellions, it did not cause it. The report basically concluded that there was no need to freak out over what happened and the French Canadians are a people without culture that will be eventually assimilated.
The causes of the Rebellions are more about the suppression of French Canadians in the political and economical process.
Plus, though it was not a wide spread war, the Rebellions were serious and there were members who fled to the US and tried to achieve independence from colonial rule.
EDIT: For someone who comes in a thread to shit on everyone for being ignorant and inaccurate, perhaps you should think about leading by example.
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On January 21 2013 12:59 MstrSplntr wrote:I'm too am a ex-west-islander, and this OP is offensive, arrogant and screams ignorance. Change it so quebecers actually want to read the thread .
I'm open to real advice in unbiasing my views, but I honestly think the "preserve our culture" bit is complete bullshit, akin to americans who are completely against any type of gun control because it's "their culture". The way I see it, quebec culture isn't "dying", it's evolving. To stop that evolution is a backwards way of thought.
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On January 21 2013 13:42 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 12:59 MstrSplntr wrote:I'm too am a ex-west-islander, and this OP is offensive, arrogant and screams ignorance. Change it so quebecers actually want to read the thread . I'm open to real advice in unbiasing my views, but I honestly think the "preserve our culture" bit is complete bullshit, akin to americans who are completely against any type of gun control because it's "their culture". The way I see it, quebec culture isn't "dying", it's evolving. To stop that evolution is a backwards way of thought.
Maybe it's backwards. But to say it's bullshit is a bit ridiculous. People really do feel that way. What you view as the natural evolution of the culture in Quebec is, at the same time, the dissolution of our initial culture into the general North American culture and its anglosaxon roots. To say that the good ole' melding pot is the only way forward IMO is to neglect some alternatives which may be viable and more plausible in practice if our goal is for people to be happy.
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On January 21 2013 13:42 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 12:59 MstrSplntr wrote:I'm too am a ex-west-islander, and this OP is offensive, arrogant and screams ignorance. Change it so quebecers actually want to read the thread . I'm open to real advice in unbiasing my views, but I honestly think the "preserve our culture" bit is complete bullshit, akin to americans who are completely against any type of gun control because it's "their culture". The way I see it, quebec culture isn't "dying", it's evolving. To stop that evolution is a backwards way of thought.
But what is preventing it from evolving?
A language is part of one's history. You know, you can still grow up in Quebec and not learn a single French word. The bill 101 doesn't stop you from this.
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[/QUOTE]
Our political views, in Canada, are seen as socialist, but is that a bad sign? Is it so wrong that we fight for different causes?
[/QUOTE]
This is a trend I am noticing in some posts. It seems people are making the assumption that the rest of canada, while being a little farther on the right, dislikes the fact that Quebec is more Socialist.
I never once heard someone complain about Quebecs political stance other than how it effects their own province.
edit: I suppose I should go farther on this topic to get my opinion across on parties like PQ and the separatist mentality.
A democratic country thrives in an environment of having mutliple different political stances. That's how true government and a good oposition are created. I never understood how Quebec having a different political stance than the rest of canada is a good argument for separation
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On January 21 2013 14:03 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +
Our political views, in Canada, are seen as socialist, but is that a bad sign? Is it so wrong that we fight for different causes?
This is a trend I am noticing in some posts. It seems people are making the assumption that the rest of canada, while being a little farther on the right, dislikes the fact that Quebec is more Socialist. I never once heard someone complain about Quebecs political stance other than how it effects their own province. edit: I suppose I should go farther on this topic to get my opinion across on parties like PQ and the separatist mentality. A democratic country thrives in an environment of having mutliple different political stances. That's how true government and a good oposition are created. I never understood how Quebec having a different political stance than the rest of canada is a good argument for separation
Don't misquote me though. The fact that I am saying that we are seen as socialist does not mean that I think the rest of the Canada complain about people from Quebec.
What I'm implying is that people from Quebec generally have different ideas and I'm asking if it's wrong that we have different ideas.
Also, the separation never been about a different political stance, it has always been about a different cultural stance.
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EPT
