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Hello TLers,
Due to possible confusion, the topic is "The Parti Quebecois" with the subtext of "Are they an appropriate party to represent all of Quebec, and are they making responsible choices?"
Disclaimer: This OP is biased toward a bilingual, ex-west-islander 4th year engineering student at concordia perspective. I am far from being removed enough to be unbiased. This is my understanding and my view. Hopefully we can discuss this.
Some notable responses:
On December 14 2012 04:37 bonifaceviii wrote:
Montreal resident dismayed at Parti Quebecois' irrational hostility toward bilingualism; film at 11!
But seriously, if you're from Montreal the PQ isn't for you.
On December 14 2012 05:30 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 05:24 Abraxas514 wrote:On December 14 2012 05:19 bonifaceviii wrote:On December 14 2012 05:13 Abraxas514 wrote:
The minor squabbles between europeans that ended with the british rule of Canada are largely unimportant if you want to start being specific about history. But isn't your whole OP about the minor squabbles between ex-European colonizers? I know it sucks that the PQ won, dude, but what did you expect? Every post you've made so far is an attempt to misdirect the conversation. If you would like to argue why the PQ is good for quebec, please provide statistics, articles from respected news outlets, or specific talking points like your peer did before you. I'm from Toronto and don't give a shit, if you didn't notice. I don't think that the PQ is good for Quebec. I also don't think a Montreal college kid making a dumb OP whining that his party lost is a particularly good "conversation".
On December 14 2012 04:52 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 04:50 Abraxas514 wrote:On December 14 2012 04:37 bonifaceviii wrote:
Montreal resident dismayed at Parti Quebecois' irrational hostility toward bilingualism; film at 11!
But seriously, if you're from Montreal the PQ isn't for you. Interesting because about half the population of Quebec lives in the metropolitan region of Montreal. It's okay dude, Ontario would gladly take you guys if you were to secede from Quebec. The whole "Toronto hates Montreal" thing can be set aside for the greater good.
On December 14 2012 05:03 Kurr wrote:
I am french, lived in Quebec for 4 years, and couldn't be happier to be out of that place. These borderline psychotic cases are one of the primary reasons why.. it's shameful and I couldn't bear to be associated with that.
On December 14 2012 05:22 DreamTheaterFan wrote:
To everybody here in TL reading this and are unaware of Quebec's situation, I urge you to disregard OP's ridiculous stand on the matter, it is one of the most misleading, misinformed and filled with hatred post I've ever read.
No wonder people are so confused about the middle east or any other political crisis for that matter... how can you form an objective opinion on a far-away country when within your own country media and opposition fill your head with crap and you can't see the bigger picture?
History:
Some of you may be familiar with my province of Quebec. It's a place where francophones historically were oppressed by the british, whether by language or just systemic discrimination.
Since the 1970s Quebec has been a very different place since "bill 101". You can't make a sign in English any more, be it the name of your store, your menu, or an advertisement. Forty years later, 90% of Montreal speaks French natively.
Fast forward to the spring of 2012... or the "Quebec spring" where dirt-poor third-street students marched against the Liberal party of quebec's plan to increase university tuition to comparable levels in Canada, with some accompanied increase in service.
Pauline Marois, and the PQ in general, used this as a strong pivot to differentiate themselves from the Liberals. They promised to reverse the tuition hike, and keep the increase in loans and bursaries the Liberals instated to compensate for the tuition hike.
Present:
Now, Quebec suffers the consequence of electing a french "fundamentalist" party.
I say "fundamentalist" because they refuse to acknowledge their being part of canada:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/17/canadian-flag-taken-down-replaced-with-fleur-de-lis-at-quebec-legislature-as-pq-takes-oath-of-office/
(In my opinion, this constitutes treason to the Crown)
Quebec universities LOSE funding:
ctvnews: pq-tells-universities-to-cut-140-million-in-costs-for-current-school-year
So Marois basically duped the province about their budget plans.
Then she buffs up the OQLF, the "french language gestapo" despite a failing budget and a hiring freeze:
Budget cuts to many services, buff to OQLF
This is an organization that wants to shut down an ice cream store for having flavor names in english, and using a horrible word like "sprinkles" instead of it's french counterpart:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/quebec-s-language-laws-leave-ben-jerry-s-shop-with-ice-cream-headache-1.1077743
They also prevent big retailers like "wallmart" from having english-suggestive names.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/10/13/french-language-english-companies.html
Entire cities are dropping their "bilingualism". Saint-Lazare is a city that always had a large english-speaking population, who now cannot even be served in court in english.
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/facing-complaints-from-language-office-st-lazare-drops-bilingualism-1.1067977
Edit: This next part was actually a satire.
+ Show Spoiler +
Conclusion:
My prediction is that this minority government won't last long. There is serious distrust, especially in montreal, of government officials, culminating in the resignation of Montreal's and Laval's mayors, within a week of each other:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/montreal-mayor-resigns-denies-corruption-allegations-1.1025935
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/11/09/quebec-laval-mayor-gilles-vaillancourt-announces-political-future.html
We SERIOUSLY distrust our leaders.
If Pauline Marois' amendments to bill 101
(http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/12/05/montreal-pq-language-bill.html)
gets down voted in parliament, then the party looses power, and a new government must be elected.
In all honesty, look at the electorial maps:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebecvotes2012/
It looks like the united states. The south, or the "places where there are anglophones, immigrants, jobs, and universities" voted almost completely for the Liberal party (who earned 50 seats, compared to the PQs 54 seats) or the CAQ. The entire north "almost-absolutely french" areas voted unanimously for the PQ.
TL;DR
This makes me think that Quebec might be better served by a two party system. Let the south half be all bilingual and practice all kinds of progressive nonsense, and let the PQ take the north and secede. Everyone's happy.
EDIT:
I don't hate the French. My whole mother's side lives in Paris. I want to avoid incidents such as these, which are founded on French people not wanting Anglophones in "their" province:
http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/a9tro worker face assault charge language incident/7470155/story.html
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you do know that the reason Montreal's and Laval's mayors quit is because they were being unofficially accused of being part of a huge collusion/corruption scheme right? doesn't have much to do with the PQ, it's been going on for years (accusations have been coming up since the Charboneau Commission)
Libs won't vote against the amendments to bill 101 because they don't even have a leader since Jean Charest quit. It's very much so not in their interest to start a new election campaign.
also, not that it seems to matter to you but there's plenty of universities in regions that haven't voted for the Liberal party
cool generalizations
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On December 14 2012 04:10 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:
you do know that the reason Montreal's and Laval's mayors quit is because they were being unofficially accused of being part of a huge collusion/corruption scheme right? doesn't have much to do with the PQ, it's been going on for years (accusations have been coming up since the Charboneau Commission)
Libs won't vote against the amendments to bill 101 because they don't even have a leader since Jean Charest quit. It's very much so not in their interest to start a new election campaign.
also, not that it seems to matter to you but there's plenty of universities in regions that haven't voted for the Liberal party
cool generalizations
My only point about the mayors was that us city-people really distrust our leaders at this moment in time.
Here is the map from wikipedia of the universities in Quebec. Compare that to the electoral map if you wish.
As you can see, no universities in the north.
Here is a quick photoshop I made of universities/cities of quebec, versus electorial map:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/107275289/Quebec.jpg
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We distrust our leaders cause they are corrupted. Until they prove otherwise, why should we trust them? The cuts needed to be done since the previous government didn't govern properly and we were constantly under a deficit year after year. You can't blame the PQ for the 9 years of the PLQ. It's like when Obama took the United States in 2008...there was a lot of shit because of Republicans and shit.
TLDR : yeah your arguments are bad.
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Montreal resident dismayed at Parti Quebecois' irrational hostility toward bilingualism; film at 11!
But seriously, if you're from Montreal the PQ isn't for you.
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im french-quebecois from montreal... and sorry but you know nothing about our history.... we are a whole different nation. thousands of people died to protect our nation, you can go live in ontario if you dont like the current government...
Some of you may be familiar with my province of Quebec. It's a place where francophones historically were oppressed by the british, whether by language or just systemic discrimination.
lol is that really what they learned you at school?
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On December 14 2012 04:37 bonifaceviii wrote:
Montreal resident dismayed at Parti Quebecois' irrational hostility toward bilingualism; film at 11!
But seriously, if you're from Montreal the PQ isn't for you.
Interesting because about half the population of Quebec lives in the metropolitan region of Montreal.
From wikipedia:
QUEBEC
Population Ranked 2nd
Total (2012) 8,080,550 [3]
MONTREAL
Population (2011)[3]
• City 1,649,519
• Density 4,517.6/km2 (11,701/sq mi)
• Urban[4] 3,407,963
• Urban density 2,205.4/km2 (5,712/sq mi)
• Metro[5] 3,824,221 (2nd)
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On December 14 2012 04:50 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 04:37 bonifaceviii wrote:
Montreal resident dismayed at Parti Quebecois' irrational hostility toward bilingualism; film at 11!
But seriously, if you're from Montreal the PQ isn't for you. Interesting because about half the population of Quebec lives in the metropolitan region of Montreal.
It's okay dude, Ontario would gladly take you guys if you were to secede from Quebec. The whole "Toronto hates Montreal" thing can be set aside for the greater good.
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Are you Serious?
I will try to clarify the Bill101
disclaimer : I am myself Québécois.
As quebecois, we stand as a minority of 4% of french speaker within the whole north america. this means that by our simple presence withing an english world that is america, we receive tremendous cultural influence from english culture. Anyone who's been to Quebec will concede it. we all learn english as 2nd language at school, we all use franglish slangs.
Studies (look out for yourself) have proven that before bill 101 french as a language of use was regresing. After 101 it stabilized. WHY? because Bill101 was made to protect our culture from that strong influence. Bill 101 is basically institutionalizing our culture withing the laws of our province.
what it does: Forces every one who's parent didn't go to an english school to get educated in French until college (ig french quebecois and immigrants). Forces every company to advertise in French since the language of use in Quebec in French. Forces every enterprise to function in French, meaning that everyone should work in french within Quebec(most do not respect it).
Outside Law 101, we as Quebecois MUST be able to speak english in order to find a job. because nowadays we live in an english world. WE learn it, why wouldnt you. Do you ever go to france and ask to be served in english, or ask to study in english? no because they speak french. why is it different with us.
this sir OP here, comes from west-island where some people can´t speak a word of french, people who've been living in Quebec for years 10 20 30 40 years and still do not speak french. the english minorty of quebec, complains that we as a people do not respect their individual rights of english speakers. although, there are 3 major english hospitals and 2 major english university ranked in the best school of the world (eg Mcgill which is 8th worldwide I think). Also the Government AKA the people's Money and taxes FUNDS THESE ENGLISH ONLY SERVICES. The english minority of quebec is one of the most pleased minority of the world. Do you see latinos ask for spanish schools in LA? no they go to english school like everyone else.
why is it so important to us? first of all, because language is a mental and conceptual structure. it orders thoughts and concepts of communication. this mean with every language comes a different structure of THINKING. As an example, Inuits (northern indigenous people of quebec) have over a hundred different term for the word SNOW. before colonisation, they had no concept of money and business. what does it mean? Culture is a way of thinking, and to preserve it as a minorty you have to defend it. english is nowhere near to disappear as a culture my friend. french, without bill101 in quebec is.
That said, it is understandable that Quebec as a distinct people, culture and Nation wants to part ways with canada. the main reason? we do not think the same. Every nation according to the UN bill of rights has its right of autodetermination. and we simply do not recognize ourself like canadians. Look at our present government of canada. conservative, rightwing, who not so long ago thought global warming was a scam, who's membership is opus dei related, who wants to go back on gay marriage and abortion, who erased the gun registry, who buys for billions and billions of warplanes instead of investing in education and culture. that is just not how we are.
right now quebec does not suffer from the elected party. if you'd watched the political scene in quebec you should know that we have this cycle in which a party is first elected minoritary, then re elected majoritary. the governement will last because the other parties aren't ready for an other election too soon and Bill101 is untouchable in Quebec.
we don't want to shut down english stores, we want them to change their names. Couchetard, a french entreprise renamed Circle K for its stores in the US, that's logical no?
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I am french, lived in Quebec for 4 years, and couldn't be happier to be out of that place. These borderline psychotic cases are one of the primary reasons why.. it's shameful and I couldn't bear to be associated with that.
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Do you ever go to france and ask to be served in english, or ask to study in english? no because they speak french. why is it different with us.
I don't think you've ever been to France, or any European country for that matter.
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On December 14 2012 03:34 Abraxas514 wrote:
Hello TLers,
Present:
Now, Quebec suffers the consequence of electing a french "fundamentalist" party.
this op is terrible. its so biased/based on wrong assumptions I dont get how we can discuss it without shitting all over what you say...
lol a fundamentalist party... yeah muslim broterhood ftw man. everyone knows Lisee has ties with the Hamas as well.
btw they will be defeated at the Assemblee nationale sometime this spring.
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On December 14 2012 04:56 crazyweasel wrote:
Are you Serious?
I will try to clarify the Bill101
disclaimer : I am myself Québécois.
As quebecois, we stand as a minority of 4% of french speaker within the whole north america. this means that by our simple presence withing an english world that is america, we receive tremendous cultural influence from english culture. Anyone who's been to Quebec will concede it. we all learn english as 2nd language at school, we all use franglish slangs.
Studies (look out for yourself) have proven that before bill 101 french as a language of use was regresing. After 101 it stabilized. WHY? because Bill101 was made to protect our culture from that strong influence. Bill 101 is basically institutionalizing our culture withing the laws of our province.
what it does: Forces every one who's parent didn't go to an english school to get educated in French until college (ig french quebecois and immigrants). Forces every company to advertise in French since the language of use in Quebec in French. Forces every enterprise to function in French, meaning that everyone should work in french within Quebec(most do not respect it).
Outside Law 101, we as Quebecois MUST be able to speak english in order to find a job. because nowadays we live in an english world. WE learn it, why wouldnt you. Do you ever go to france and ask to be served in english, or ask to study in english? no because they speak french. why is it different with us.
this sir OP here, comes from west-island where some people can´t speak a word of french, people who've been living in Quebec for years 10 20 30 40 years and still do not speak french. the english minorty of quebec, complains that we as a people do not respect their individual rights of english speakers. although, there are 3 major english hospitals and 2 major english university ranked in the best school of the world (eg Mcgill which is 8th worldwide I think). Also the Government AKA the people's Money and taxes FUNDS THESE ENGLISH ONLY SERVICES. The english minority of quebec is one of the most pleased minority of the world. Do you see latinos ask for spanish schools in LA? no they go to english school like everyone else.
why is it so important to us? first of all, because language is a mental and conceptual structure. it orders thoughts and concepts of communication. this mean with every language comes a different structure of THINKING. As an example, Inuits (northern indigenous people of quebec) have over a hundred different term for the word SNOW. before colonisation, they had no concept of money and business. what does it mean? Culture is a way of thinking, and to preserve it as a minorty you have to defend it. english is nowhere near to disappear as a culture my friend. french, without bill101 in quebec is.
That said, it is understandable that Quebec as a distinct people, culture and Nation wants to part ways with canada. the main reason? we do not think the same. Every nation according to the UN bill of rights has its right of autodetermination. and we simply do not recognize ourself like canadians. Look at our present government of canada. conservative, rightwing, who not so long ago thought global warming was a scam, who's membership is opus dei related, who wants to go back on gay marriage and abortion, who erased the gun registry, who buys for billions and billions of warplanes instead of investing in education and culture. that is just not how we are.
right now quebec does not suffer from the elected party. if you'd watched the political scene in quebec you should know that we have this cycle in which a party is first elected minoritary, then re elected majoritary. the governement will last because the other parties aren't ready for an other election too soon and Bill101 is untouchable in Quebec.
we don't want to shut down english stores, we want them to change their names. Couchetard, a french entreprise renamed Circle K for its stores in the US, that's logical no?
May I remind you families in the West Island have been living in Canada for well over a hundred years.
I agree about Harper's government, but that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.
Hundreds of years of second-class status during the colonial age doesn't justify doing the same to anglophones in the information age. Bill 101 guarantees French is the ruling language of Quebec. We don't need bilingual dogs and French translations of words like "brownies" and "sprinkles".
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^^ Canada was founded over 400 years ago by french colonists.
we can get into flawed arguments all day long if you want.
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On December 14 2012 05:08 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
^^ Canada was founded over 400 years ago by french colonists.
we can get into flawed arguments all day long if you want.
Archaeological studies and genetic analyses have indicated a human presence in the northern Yukon region from 24,500 BC, and in southern Ontario from 7500 BC.[15][16][17]
The minor squabbles between europeans that ended with the british rule of Canada are largely unimportant if you want to start being specific about history.
Whoever "planted their flag first" is completely irrelevant.
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On December 14 2012 05:13 Abraxas514 wrote:
The minor squabbles between europeans that ended with the british rule of Canada are largely unimportant if you want to start being specific about history.
But isn't your whole OP about the minor squabbles between ex-European colonizers?
I know it sucks that the PQ won, dude, but what did you expect?
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To everybody here in TL reading this and are unaware of Quebec's situation, I urge you to disregard OP's ridiculous stand on the matter, it is one of the most misleading, misinformed and filled with hatred post I've ever read.
No wonder people are so confused about the middle east or any other political crisis for that matter... how can you form an objective opinion on a far-away country when within your own country media and opposition fill your head with crap and you can't see the bigger picture?
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You haven't actually suggested a topic for discussion. This all just reads like a rant which ends with a radical and unrealistic conclusion.
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On December 14 2012 05:19 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 05:13 Abraxas514 wrote:
The minor squabbles between europeans that ended with the british rule of Canada are largely unimportant if you want to start being specific about history. But isn't your whole OP about the minor squabbles between ex-European colonizers? I know it sucks that the PQ won, dude, but what did you expect?
Every post you've made so far is an attempt to misdirect the conversation. If you would like to argue why the PQ is good for quebec, please provide statistics, articles from respected news outlets, or specific talking points like your peer did before you.
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On December 14 2012 05:22 Rezudox wrote:
You haven't actually suggested a topic for discussion. This all just reads like a rant which ends with a radical and unrealistic conclusion.
The topic is "The Parti Quebecois" with the subtext of "Are they an appropriate party to represent all of Quebec, and are they making responsible choices?"
I will edit the OP.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Universities_in_Qu%C3%A9bec.svg)
