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On December 14 2012 05:05 Abraxas514 wrote:
May I remind you families in the West Island have been living in Canada for well over a hundred years.
I agree about Harper's government, but that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.
Hundreds of years of second-class status during the colonial age doesn't justify doing the same to anglophones in the information age. Bill 101 guarantees French is the ruling language of Quebec. We don't need bilingual dogs and French translations of words like "brownies" and "sprinkles".
Families in the west island have been living in someone else's home for hundread years. now its their homes as well but they have to respect the nation in which they live. starting by speaking the language of use. I dont give a shit if you speak english to your mom dad or friend at home or a your teaclub. i want you to speak french at school and at work in order to maintain my culture from dying.
its not justifying years of second class status or anything. we have a culture to protect, it is in the collective interest to protect it. what are you complaining about? you think we shouldnt protect our culture is it what you are saying?
harper as alot to do in this discussion. as quebecois we are the anti thesis of what politicaly canada is.
On December 14 2012 05:03 Kurr wrote:
I am french, lived in Quebec for 4 years, and couldn't be happier to be out of that place. These borderline psychotic cases are one of the primary reasons why.. it's shameful and I couldn't bear to be associated with that.
then im glad you left.
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On December 14 2012 05:24 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 05:19 bonifaceviii wrote:On December 14 2012 05:13 Abraxas514 wrote:
The minor squabbles between europeans that ended with the british rule of Canada are largely unimportant if you want to start being specific about history. But isn't your whole OP about the minor squabbles between ex-European colonizers? I know it sucks that the PQ won, dude, but what did you expect? Every post you've made so far is an attempt to misdirect the conversation. If you would like to argue why the PQ is good for quebec, please provide statistics, articles from respected news outlets, or specific talking points like your peer did before you.
I'm from Toronto and don't give a shit, if you didn't notice. I don't think that the PQ is good for Quebec.
I also don't think a Montreal college kid making a dumb OP whining that his party lost is a particularly good "conversation".
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edit - refer to later post
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On December 14 2012 05:13 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 05:08 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
^^ Canada was founded over 400 years ago by french colonists.
we can get into flawed arguments all day long if you want. Show nested quote +Archaeological studies and genetic analyses have indicated a human presence in the northern Yukon region from 24,500 BC, and in southern Ontario from 7500 BC.[15][16][17] The minor squabbles between europeans that ended with the british rule of Canada are largely unimportant if you want to start being specific about history. Whoever "planted their flag first" is completely irrelevant.
Canada as a nation champ. If he wanted to say the French were the first on the continent, he would. Instead, he said that Canada was founded 400 years ago. Previous societies were primarily irrelevant by the time Europeans came and took over, so the human presence youre talking about has no impact or reason to be in this argument. Your nitpicking is what's irrelevant.
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"the OQLF, the "french language gestapo""
Godwin's Law usually takes longer but this time it's right in the OP.
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Peaceful secession movement =/= treason. Especially since the supreme court has more or less said that provinces have the right to separate from Canada after a referendum (with some caveats). As for what I think of the PQ? At the moment, they are probably less bad than the PLQ or the CAQ (or QS :/ ), and I say this as a staunch federalist. There just wasn't much option at the last provincial election.
As far as separatist movements go, though, Option National is definitively the less anti-Anglophone one.
On December 14 2012 05:39 PizzaParty wrote:
"the OQLF, the "french language gestapo""
Godwin's Law usually takes longer but this time it's right in the OP.
Impressive indeed.
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On December 14 2012 05:37 crbox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 05:03 Mikau wrote:
Do you ever go to france and ask to be served in english, or ask to study in english? no because they speak french. why is it different with us.
I don't think you've ever been to France, or any European country for that matter. Why would you say that? I only been to France (no other parts of Europe sadly  ) But he made a point, you don't go to France and be asked to be served in english. I don't agree with Mikau though, because the population of Montreal is a little over 50% english speaking, so in some neighborhood, it's quite standard to be served in english. If you only speak French in Montreal you have to be a little retarded (I learned French before English btw, my family speak French, etc.) EDIT : Btw this : Show nested quote +"i want you to speak french at school and at work in order to maintain my culture from dying." is probably top3 most retarded quote I've seen in a while. I'm not trying to diss you or anything, just made me laugh a little that's all ^^ You don't have control over what people do, you can either live with it or make whiny posts on TL as long as you want XD
The point I made was that in France (and nearly everywhere else in Europe) it is quite normal to be served in English. Yes people prefer it if you make an effort of speaking French (or whatever the native tongue is where you are) but most of the time they will make an effort to speak English to you. The same goes for studying in English. Most (if not all) universities have their major programs in English. Most of the classmates I have (in Belgium) are from all over the world and we speak English all the time.
So what you were saying is not only a pretty bad argument in it's own right, it's also blatantly false.
I'll just say that I know nothing about Canada and wasn't trying to get involved in this discussion, I was merely trying to call someone on their nonsense.
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On December 14 2012 05:37 LiamTheZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 05:13 Abraxas514 wrote:On December 14 2012 05:08 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
^^ Canada was founded over 400 years ago by french colonists.
we can get into flawed arguments all day long if you want. Archaeological studies and genetic analyses have indicated a human presence in the northern Yukon region from 24,500 BC, and in southern Ontario from 7500 BC.[15][16][17] The minor squabbles between europeans that ended with the british rule of Canada are largely unimportant if you want to start being specific about history. Whoever "planted their flag first" is completely irrelevant. Canada as a nation champ. If he wanted to say the French were the first on the continent, he would. Instead, he said that Canada was founded 400 years ago. Previous societies were primarily irrelevant by the time Europeans came and took over, so the human presence youre talking about has no impact or reason to be in this argument. Your nitpicking is what's irrelevant.
Who "founded" Canada is the irrelevant point here. I mean, look at this map:
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/NorthAmerica1762-83.png)
So 400 years ago "we" were French, then 250 years ago "we" were English. Then 30 years ago the French people took the power back. The French are a distinct nation, yes obviously, but they are also within Canada, a country which is supposedly built on tolerance, a mosaic as opposed to a melting pot.
But this discussion is NOT about whether Quebec should be English or French. It is about whether the PQ is doing a good job or not.
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On December 14 2012 03:34 Abraxas514 wrote:Then she buffs up the OQLF, the "french language gestapo" despite a failing budget and a hiring freeze: Expanding the OQLF
Nice of you to link an article from 9 months ago about Christine St-Pierre, the ex-Minister of Culture under the PLQ government and blame the PQ for it when they have only been in power for 3 months.
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On December 14 2012 05:43 Fischbacher wrote:Peaceful secession movement =/= treason. Especially since the supreme court has more or less said that provinces have the right to separate from Canada after a referendum (with some caveats). As for what I think of the PQ? At the moment, they are probably less bad than the PLQ or the CAQ (or QS :/ ), and I say this as a staunch federalist. There just wasn't much option at the last provincial election. As far as separatist movements go, though, Option National is definitively the less anti-Anglophone one. Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 05:39 PizzaParty wrote:
"the OQLF, the "french language gestapo""
Godwin's Law usually takes longer but this time it's right in the OP. Impressive indeed.
A squad of unwatched fervent government-mandated French-pushers who literally come to your store, tell you your menu isn't French enough, kick out paying customers, fine you, insult you, and have absolutely no accountability.
At least to someone who isn't purelaine, I guess.
Also, their study shows the measures aren't needed:
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/Editorial OQLF study shows English restrictions needed/7622675/story.html
EDIT:
Thanks for keeping me on my toes, here is a summary of next year's budget changes:
But, in an unusual move, the expenditure budget also announced a series of cuts that some programs will have to make in the next four months.
A few highlights:
- $4.1 million cut in managing the environment in 2013-2014
- $120 million cut in housing for 2013-2014
- $373, 000$ to be cut in primary and secondary school budgets in the next 4 months
- $61 million cut in employment programs 2013-2014
- $17 million cut to assistance measures for families, to be made within the next 4 months
- $1.3 million cut to economic development fund
- $78 million less for management of Natural Resources
- $138 million cut in health care system budget, to be made in the next 4 months (budget will increase in 2013-2014)
- $140 million cut to university budgets (This was announced later)
- $1.1 million spending increase in the Office de la Langue Française for 2013-2014
Posted the wrong article, fixed now!!
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Do you ever go to france and ask to be served in english, or ask to study in english? no because they speak french. why is it different with us.
Yes. I would say it is considered polite to at least attempt to get by in the national language, but lets be honest asking someone if they speak English or to conduct a transaction in English is not a slight or transgression.
The english minority of quebec is one of the most pleased minority of the world. Do you see latinos ask for spanish schools in LA?
The exception is that extensive accommodations have been made to facilitate transition into English learning, there are environments in schools across the US that blur the line until sufficient comprehension is established to have Latino students learn with the general student population. I assume these exist in the French speaking public facilities of Quebec as well.
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On December 14 2012 06:00 Abraxas514 wrote:
A squad of unwatched fervent government-mandated French-pushers who literally come to your store, tell you your menu isn't French enough, kick out paying customers, fine you, insult you, and have absolutely no accountability.
So why are they pursuing it anyway?
Really ? Where ? Seriously you are going to show some evidence for claims like this.
Fines are like a speeding ticket, if you don't do anything wrong you won't get any. Store owners know they have to have signs in French. They don't and get a fine. It's their fault really.
I'm not sure it's been said so far in the thread but remember that Quebec has one and only one official language : French. New-Brunswick has French and English. All the other have English only. "But Canada is bilingual !" I hear you type. Federal institutions are bilingual, not the country. If it was I could speak French everywhere in Canada, which is not the case.
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On December 14 2012 06:18 PizzaParty wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 06:00 Abraxas514 wrote:
A squad of unwatched fervent government-mandated French-pushers who literally come to your store, tell you your menu isn't French enough, kick out paying customers, fine you, insult you, and have absolutely no accountability.
So why are they pursuing it anyway? Really ? Where ? Seriously you are going to show some evidence for claims like this.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/quebec-s-language-laws-leave-ben-jerry-s-shop-with-ice-cream-headache-1.1077743
The point of the argument is "The PQ is mismanaging our province by increasing funding to an organization that does not warrant the increase, and cutting important services like university and healthcare funding."
Can the pro-PQ posters, and the anti-everything posters, please stay on topic. I'm saying the PQ is bad for Quebec. This was never an english versus french debate.
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you made a shitty op that turned into a shitty thread.
thats what happened.
User was warned for this post
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On December 14 2012 08:56 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
you made a shitty op that turned into a shitty thread.
thats what happened.
Cant say Im surprised, people are way too passionate about this stuff to have a discussion about it with people they know in real life, let alone strangers on the internet. Its a case of you're never gonna convince them - they're never gonna convinve you so you just kind of shout at each other until everything goes to shit.
Honestly this is kinda like if someone made a huge topic about how shitty the Democratic party is and how bad it is that they've been elected again. GL having an intelligent, rational discussion after that
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On December 14 2012 06:00 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 05:43 Fischbacher wrote:Peaceful secession movement =/= treason. Especially since the supreme court has more or less said that provinces have the right to separate from Canada after a referendum (with some caveats). As for what I think of the PQ? At the moment, they are probably less bad than the PLQ or the CAQ (or QS :/ ), and I say this as a staunch federalist. There just wasn't much option at the last provincial election. As far as separatist movements go, though, Option National is definitively the less anti-Anglophone one. On December 14 2012 05:39 PizzaParty wrote:
"the OQLF, the "french language gestapo""
Godwin's Law usually takes longer but this time it's right in the OP. Impressive indeed. A squad of unwatched fervent government-mandated French-pushers who literally come to your store, tell you your menu isn't French enough, kick out paying customers, fine you, insult you, and have absolutely no accountability. At least to someone who isn't purelaine, I guess. Also, their study shows the measures aren't needed: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/Editorial OQLF study shows English restrictions needed/7622675/story.htmlEDIT: Thanks for keeping me on my toes, here is a summary of next year's budget changes: Show nested quote +But, in an unusual move, the expenditure budget also announced a series of cuts that some programs will have to make in the next four months.
A few highlights:
- $4.1 million cut in managing the environment in 2013-2014
- $120 million cut in housing for 2013-2014
- $373, 000$ to be cut in primary and secondary school budgets in the next 4 months
- $61 million cut in employment programs 2013-2014
- $17 million cut to assistance measures for families, to be made within the next 4 months
- $1.3 million cut to economic development fund
- $78 million less for management of Natural Resources
- $138 million cut in health care system budget, to be made in the next 4 months (budget will increase in 2013-2014)
- $140 million cut to university budgets (This was announced later)
- $1.1 million spending increase in the Office de la Langue Française for 2013-2014 Posted the wrong article, fixed now!!
Hey mate, I'm not even a Quebecer. Just pointing out that the reason the PQ won last election was because their opposition was shit and more shit. And the Nazi comparison is fucking ridiculous.
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I'm an Anglo-Montrealer, born and raised in the West Island, and while I'll never in my life vote for the PQ the way other Anglos talk about them you'd think we were living under some kind of fascist regime. In reality we're among the best treated linguistic minorities in the world. We've got to deal with a faction of the French who are a bit extreme, but they're definitely a minority and generally are harmless. I'd feel far more uncomfortable living in certain parts of the American south.
Separatism and language issues in general are such emotional issues, that it's understandable why rhetoric sometimes gets a bit nuts. But I think Quebec's actual policies are currently very fair to both the minority Anglophones and Allophones and the French majority. That being said, it bothers me that the PQ's campaign is still so language-centric, even when myself and lots of other Quebeckers are so tired of them. We've got serious issues in this province and, while it might shock some people, language has very little to do with them! When separatism is your raison-d'etre it's almost impossible to look for common ground because emphasizing difference is how they've been electorally successful.
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On December 14 2012 06:18 PizzaParty wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 06:00 Abraxas514 wrote:
A squad of unwatched fervent government-mandated French-pushers who literally come to your store, tell you your menu isn't French enough, kick out paying customers, fine you, insult you, and have absolutely no accountability.
So why are they pursuing it anyway? Really ? Where ? Seriously you are going to show some evidence for claims like this. Fines are like a speeding ticket, if you don't do anything wrong you won't get any. Store owners know they have to have signs in French. They don't and get a fine. It's their fault really. I'm not sure it's been said so far in the thread but remember that Quebec has one and only one official language : French. New-Brunswick has French and English. All the other have English only. "But Canada is bilingual !" I hear you type. Federal institutions are bilingual, not the country. If it was I could speak French everywhere in Canada, which is not the case.
Cool bullshit, bro. Ontario has no official language. Furthermore, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language_in_Canada#Ontario
The whole concept of an official language at the provinicial level is distasteful, regardless.
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As an immigrant, I'm not too afraid of the PQ. The Quebecois has sensibilities that people who are not part of a minority do not understand very well. It doesn't justify all the negative aspects of their attitude, but it's not really a huge problem either. There is absolutely 0% chance for Quebec to become independent at this point.
Anyway, PQ will probably won't govern worse than Liberals, I think the main problem is the fact that most anglos/immigrants feel like they have to vote liberal even though they don't want to just because they would never vote for a separatist party...then the CAQ came to split the vote further.
I'm not very content with the cutting of funding to education at all. The dean at McGill send us a email denouncing the fact that they are being forced to manage the decline of the system with no prior warning.
One thing I'm sure of, however, is that the PQ will manage the debt better than the libs can.
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On December 14 2012 09:40 MajorityofOne wrote:
When separatism is your raison-d'etre it's almost impossible to look for common ground because emphasizing difference is how they've been electorally successful.
ok so iv been reading a little bit about how quebec wants to seperate from canada and become their own country , but i dont really understand because hasent canada build infrastructure and goverment buildings there ? like if they were to become their own country out side of canada what would they do to pay for all that ... would they tax the fuck out of the francophone s that voted for this ?
this bill 101 i dont really understand either , isnt it the shops owners right to have whatever kind of sign they want ? like if your in an english part of canada and you have a french sign thats allowed but if that bill passes thats not aloud ? i thought we were a forgiving country and that you can be from any culture and not get hated on because of that ..
i live up in whitehorse and there are alot of francophones up here and if they speak in french to me ill speak in as much french as i know to them without disrespect but it kinda seems like the people that are VERY strongly into the PQ party just want to kick english people out of quebec ( or at least thats what it seems like reading a few things )
iv been wondering this for quite a while , ( if this comes off a little ignorant im sorry about talking about this subject )
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EPT
