EPTall the people with brains would leave the French there
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The Parti Quebecois. - Page 3
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Rebornlife
Canada224 Posts
all the people with brains would leave the French there User was warned for this post | ||
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Abraxas514
Canada475 Posts
a $20,000 grant to finance production costs and a provincial "awareness" tour of a musical project aimed at strengthening ties between Montreal's French and English-speaking communities. a bill to amend the French Language Charter, which could strip communities of their bilingual status when their population of native English-language speakers drops below 50 per cent. the Laurentians town of Sainte-Agathe, where less than 10 per cent of the population of 10,000 is English-speaking, the municipality was forced this month to stop publishing its quarterly newsletter in both French and English. Quebec's language watchdog agency, l'Office Québécois de la Langue Française, issued that order after an OQLF inspector made a surprise visit to Sainte-Agathe early last autumn. Sainte-Agathe's Deputy Mayor Jean-Léo Legault said the town was also told to replace several English computer keyboards found in its offices and take down a few public signs that were in English. And of course, this: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/01/17/montreal-muhc-lachine-staff-transfer-exodus.html Close to 50 staff members at the Lachine Hospital have requested transfers, in response to plans that would remove the hospital from the McGill University Health Centre network. In December, health minister Réjean Hébert said he was considering transferring the hospital's control from the McGill University Health Centre to the local health and social services network in Lachine. When the MUHC first took over the Lachine Hospital in 2008, the hospital was in a "deplorable situation," according to Rinfret. After investing significant time and energy into improving the hospital, Rinfret said he would prefer to keep Lachine the way it is. These are just two of the many headlines I've been seeing over the past couple months. I feel like the PQ and our ministers are slowly trying to erase any english presence from it's province, while attempting to produce francophone propaganda to try to convince us "square-heads" that we are quebecers just like you. First of all, real "purelaines" consider themselves a seperate nation and even if I wanted to think of myself as quebecer they would never accept it, and second of all, I'm insulted at the attempt. I consider myself primarily Canadian and secondly Montrealer. I'm an anglophone living in a community of people who get along just fine. Quebec, this is why you are loosing doctors, engineers, professors and lawyers, not to mention businesses and other practices. You are systematically pushing us away instead of trying to give us a place. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On December 14 2012 12:27 Rebornlife wrote: Quebec would turn into a third world country if it separated all the people with brains would leave the French there I love the subtext. There's a dichotomy between "The French" and "people with brains". How sweet. On January 18 2013 23:15 Abraxas514 wrote: Quebec, this is why you are loosing doctors, engineers, professors and lawyers, not to mention businesses and other practices. You are systematically pushing us away instead of trying to give us a place. Alternatively education is cheap + people can get paid better elsewhere. Notably in the US. For a couple G's I can get bachelor in engineering which is ludicrously easy to do, and then I can go make a lot more money if I'll just drive south for a couple of hours. | ||
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Gnosis
Scotland912 Posts
On December 14 2012 09:40 MajorityofOne wrote: I'm an Anglo-Montrealer, born and raised in the West Island, and while I'll never in my life vote for the PQ the way other Anglos talk about them you'd think we were living under some kind of fascist regime. In reality we're among the best treated linguistic minorities in the world. Having lived in Quebec for a number of years (I wasn't born in Quebec, and moved outside of Quebec within the last year), I really can't agree that Anglophones are "among the best treated linguistic minorities in the world". I experienced nothing but hostility, even when trying to make an effort to speak French. The PQ is horrible, in both senses of the acronym. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
Some 'out of Quebec Canadians' look from a distance and see this cesspool of fucking hostility and are bitter toward Quebec and think lowly, oftentimes of the entire population of Quebec (or so it seems) Some montrealers who speak English have to deal with the (hopefully occasional) racist francophone dick and grow bitter Some francophones from QC are faced with negative comments about the province from anglophones and it's just disheartening to be thought of so lowly. All that creates tensions. Do you really think we'll grow to be great buddies if you keep up your shit? Start thinking logically and think about where the problems come from rather than what they are. You can't honestly hope to fix the unfortunate behavior of some Quebecers just by talking about how terrible a province you think QC is. Do you really need a fucking panel of discussion where you'll talk us down? This thread doesn't even try to bring up actual solutions. And the solutions that are brought up are clearly just the ramblings of pissed off men. One of the arguments for the idea that Quebec is a bunch of bad people apparently is that we elected the PQ. Let's not forget (or ignore) that the PQ got elected through what mostly is a strategic vote against the PLQ which had been in power for too long and had loosened up the checks in our public finances. It was less about people voting for their ideals than people voting against what they hate. Also the PQ is farther on the left for social policies - some people just look at the left/right debate and ignore the language thing which they view as inconsequential (mostly because "I'm a francophone and I don't give a fuck"). Then of course, there are the people who voted for the PQ because they're angry and tired of being looked down upon by so many (and let's not even talk about whether or not it's justified for anglophones to think of us so lowly). And *LOL* at "treason to the crown". The crown... rofl. | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
I've only had one hostile language encounter in the year and a half I've been here, so that's not too bad. Honestly, I've been pretty okay in this city as far as language stuff goes. That being said, in Montreal there's a general rudeness to everyone, not just francophones. Montreal is a rude city. Drivers, pedestrians, everyone's just....not friendly. I will be leaving as soon as school is done, but not because of language issues. Well, okay, I won't actually be able to work here, so that is another issue, but I can't expect to get a job since I don't speak much french at all and it is a french society, after all. The Parti Quebecois are pretty out-there when it comes to some language stuff, but I think most Quebecors (and city-folk, in particular) really don't give much of a shit when it comes down to it. People are pretty much only concerned with their own day-to-day lives (hence the rudeness). I don't know what other parts of Quebec are like, though. This is only an anglophone's experience in Montreal. | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
Since the 1970s Quebec has been a very different place since "bill 101". You can't make a sign in English any more, be it the name of your store, your menu, or an advertisement. Forty years later, 90% of Montreal speaks French natively. This is most obviously not true. In 2006, only 13.2% of Montreal are anglohpones and 66.5% are francphones. My guess is that you forgot to account in the allophones and only bothered to look up the anglophone '%'. That leaves us with with 20.3% for allophones, which makes a huge difference, because most of them (or at least a good number of them) learn english as their second language. Here's a map of Montreal showing the demographic by area : + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Montr%C3%A9al_-_Secteurs_Statitiques_2006_-_Langue_Maternelle.svg/640px-Montr%C3%A9al_-_Secteurs_Statitiques_2006_-_Langue_Maternelle.svg.png) edit: Once again, I thought you wrote something odd. (In my opinion, this constitutes treason to the Crown) When you wrote that, what crown did you have in mind exactly? Let me remind you that following the Canada Act 1982 (1982 c. 11) passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, Canada's constitution was patriated and no further require us asking anything to the U.K. You can be a loyalist and really appreciate the values of the crown, it's history, it's prestige, but Quebec not acknowledging their part in Canada has nothing to do with treason to the Crown. Perhaps you could say treason to Canada but my next argument covers that as well. If you recall correctly, Quebec never signed the constitution. Yes Ms. Marois' Party refusing to acknowledge Quebec being part of Canada can come across as shocking to some people, but in theory, Quebec truly isn't "part" of Canada. After doing a bit of research I also found out that one year before the the signing of the Canada Act 1982, the Government of Quebec has tried and failed to pass the Quebec Veto Reference, which would allow the province of Quebec a veto over Amendments to the Constitution of Canada. One year later the U.K. passed the Canada Act 1982 and therefore, Canada's constitution was created. It doesn't justify anything, but this clearly shows why Quebec didn't sign it in the first place and following current politics, won't sign it anytime soon. Now I am no separatist but a man of numbers and facts, so I just wanted to get this straight | ||
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Xain
Canada94 Posts
"Question of Separatism, The: Quebec and the Struggle over Sovereignty" "The incomparable Jane Jacobs passed away on April 25, 2006. Undeniably a genius on urban issues, Jane Jacobs also grappled with the question of nations and political sovereignty. Out of print since the mid 80s, The Question of Separatism, Quebec and the Struggle Over Sovereignty now includes a new preface and an exclusive and previously unpublished 2005 interview conducted in Jane Jacobs’ Toronto home just a year before she died. Using her renowned ability to observe the real world, Jane Jacobs discusses the timeless issues that affect—or afflict—debate on separatism in the world. These include emotion, national size and the paradoxes of size, duality and federation. She also delves into the specifics of Quebec-Canada relations and casts her experienced and penetrating gaze on two great cities, Montreal and Toronto." Jane Jacobs is american and argue that the separation of Quebec would be good for both Canada and Quebec. Of course, she's not the word of God or anything, but I definitely urge people to take a look at what she has to say. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
I can't imagine this thread turning into anything decent because what you have is Canadians who have some good reasons to be angry with (some characteristics of) Quebec, and QC francophones who read threads like this and are completely disgusted by all the generalizations against them and their people. So many folks here write like all QC francophones are trash or whatever. And then we're told "oh no us Canadians are always perfectly fine, you're the bad ones". People like myself have now completely lost any drive, any hopes that we could fix the situation. How could we? There are people in this thread pretending to be righteous when in reality they're just bitching and have no actual good intentions. And this is true for both sides. You barge in here with so called hopes of a better tomorrow and you feed the fire with insults and gross generalizations or anecdotes. Hypocrites. This sadly resumes 75% of this thread, and I must say some of the posts were borderline xenophobic. As for the OP, I don't have much to contribute as I don't really follow politics. As a french immigrant in Montreal, I'm so far not a fan of the PQ but that's mainly due to the cut done to universities (I'm still a student) which for me makes no sense considering what will happen is cuts in the quality of teaching and/or the number of students universities can accept. This looks like a short-term fix that will have consequences later. Anyway, wouldn't be too worried if you're against the PQ, it's still a minority government which many Quebecois don't agree with anyway. | ||
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Abraxas514
Canada475 Posts
On January 19 2013 01:24 crbox wrote: I had to clear some of this out: This is most obviously not true. In 2006, only 13.2% of Montreal are anglohpones and 66.5% are francphones. My guess is that you forgot to account in the allophones and only bothered to look up the anglophone '%'. That leaves us with with 20.3% for allophones, which makes a huge difference, because most of them (or at least a good number of them) learn english as their second language. Here's a map of Montreal showing the demographic by area : + Show Spoiler + edit: Once again, I thought you wrote something odd. When you wrote that, what crown did you have in mind exactly? Let me remind you that following the Canada Act 1982 (1982 c. 11) passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, Canada's constitution was patriated and no further require us asking anything to the U.K. You can be a loyalist and really appreciate the values of the crown, it's history, it's prestige, but Quebec not acknowledging their part in Canada has nothing to do with treason to the Crown. Perhaps you could say treason to Canada but my next argument covers that as well. If you recall correctly, Quebec never signed the constitution. Yes Ms. Marois' Party refusing to acknowledge Quebec being part of Canada can come across as shocking to some people, but in theory, Quebec truly isn't "part" of Canada. After doing a bit of research I also found out that one year before the the signing of the Canada Act 1982, the Government of Quebec has tried and failed to pass the Quebec Veto Reference, which would allow the province of Quebec a veto over Amendments to the Constitution of Canada. One year later the U.K. passed the Canada Act 1982 and therefore, Canada's constitution was created. It doesn't justify anything, but this clearly shows why Quebec didn't sign it in the first place and following current politics, won't sign it anytime soon. Now I am no separatist but a man of numbers and facts, so I just wanted to get this straight If you say "speaks this language natively" it can mean that for example an anglophone learnt french by going to a french daycare when he was 3-4 years old. This means every "montreal bilingual" speaks french natively. What I have a really hard time with is the OQLF. We are a first world country with Language Police. It's illegal for me to put up a sign IN my restaurant that is only in english such as "bathrooms->" even if it is the SAME size as an identical french sign. And while cutting funding to universities, hospitals and critical services, the PQ EXPANDS funding to their language police. It's so disgusting. | ||
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MezmorizedHD
8 Posts
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Perdac Curall
242 Posts
Before I say my piece I'll give you my background. I am English. I was born in Edmonton, Alberta. When I was six I moved to Montreal, and I lived there until I was 32. I moved to Toronto last summer, summer of 2012. It was a choice and a move that took me three years to do since first thinking about it. Here are the reasons why I left Montreal. 1) I will get this out of the way, since it is no one's fault. The weather in Montreal. In winter it can be -30 Celsius with the wind, regularly. The winters of 2009 and 2010 were particularly brutal. 2011 was a "mild" winter, but that only meant a hotter summer. Summer in montreal is not dry. It is virtually always near 100% humidity due to Montreal's proximity to a shit ton of water. There are about 6 weeks of nice weather per year, unless you have a colder summer, so spring seems to last longer. So yeah, in Toronto winter is much much better, and the summer is about the same, so overall win. Vancouver is also nice, but it's a different winter, much more grey sky and rain. But their summers are even nicer. 2) The economy. When I moved to Montreal in 1986 it was in the twilight of its glory, but it still had some glory. It was still an economic powerhouse. It had cheap universities, good healthcare and social insurance. Business was attracted to Quebec. But it had stopped investing in its future by 1986. Nothing was being built for the future and everything was more and more on loan from the past. From 1986 to 2012, when I lived in Montreal, there is virtually no new infrastructure that has been built. Every bit of infrastructure in Montreal was the same one in 2012 that I first encountered in 1986, only in 2012 it was even more decrepit and worn down. Twice I opened the paper to read about a piece of a bridge or tunnel that collapsed on someone's head, once with fatalities, and once miraculously not (it was at like 5 am on a Sunday and it so happened that there were no cars right underneath when it collapsed but it is the Ville Marie tunnel it is a very busy tunnel normally.) Quebec is a fiscal basketcase. It is increasingly in debt with a population that is increasingly Green/Left/Environmentalist that wants less growth, less development, to not "harm the Earth" so to speak. So I have witnessed in my short life Montreal willing destroying everything that once made it the great powerhouse of Canada. No new hydro dams can be built, except for what are called micro-dams, which are meant for powering small local areas and cannot sustain economic and industrial growth. I am not for new hydro dams, I am for advanced nuclear, but Quebec is vehemently anti nuclear. That is a big reason I came to Ontario which is the nuclear capital of Canada. Quebec is certainly anti-coal and oil power as well. That leaves natural gas, which Quebec has and has been using for a long time, and can maintain for awhile as current costs stay low with increased fracking. Quebec is also vehemently anti fracking, which I am as well, being for nuclear as a much saner and safer option. Also solar and wind, which Quebec is overwhelmingly for. What this means is that Quebec's energy costs will soar as the move from cheap and reliable hydro to expensive and unreliable solar and wind. Solar is particularly funny to hear support for from a population that has a winter that lasts 7 months. Also a cultural shift away from wanting to be a technologically advanced society on par with America, to rejecting entirely competition with America and wanting an economy based on restaurants, bars and nightclubs, art galleries, tourist stuff, and other elements of a service economy. This is solely my opinion, and I would love to be proven wrong, but I do not believe this current economic model for Quebec is sustainable, and that is why they are increasingly in debt and overtaxed, and growth has ceased, except for growth in service industries. Ontario on the other hand has the right model I believe. They have much more industry and manufacturing. Alot of it is businesses that moved from Quebec after the 1995 referendum. And that leads me into... 3) The bullshit language politics bullshit. Yeah estie de crisse it's fucking annoying. There is increasing tensions between anglos and francophones especially since 2008 since the economy started doing worse and worse. Separatism is again on the rise. My mother is a teacher in a french elementary school and she is the english teacher. She has seen over the years time and time again an effort to minimize the amount of English that their kids learn, even though it is the world's so-called 2nd language and almost every country wants their kids to learn it (see South Korea for instance.) I speak French fluently, I have had many French gfs over my life, and lots of French friends. It has never been an issue to me, but I have witnessed it's resurgence over the past 5 years and fuck that man. I got the fuck out of Montreal, for a compounding of everything I have said here. Quebec in general I find is more and more a closed insular society, and that is very scary. I used to say I would never move to Ontario, but I could not be happier right now with my decision. It took awhile to make new friends but it was worth it. TLDR: From Montreal. Never thought I would leave. Moved to Toronto because of weather, economic decline and language politics. Couldn't be happier. Fuck the Parti Quebecois they ruined Quebec. | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
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Xain
Canada94 Posts
On January 19 2013 04:43 Perdac Curall wrote: I can't believe there is a thread on this on TL I am so happy. Before I say my piece I'll give you my background. I am English. I was born in Edmonton, Alberta. When I was six I moved to Montreal, and I lived there until I was 32. I moved to Toronto last summer, summer of 2012. It was a choice and a move that took me three years to do since first thinking about it. Here are the reasons why I left Montreal. 1) I will get this out of the way, since it is no one's fault. The weather in Montreal. In winter it can be -30 Celsius with the wind, regularly. The winters of 2009 and 2010 were particularly brutal. 2011 was a "mild" winter, but that only meant a hotter summer. Summer in montreal is not dry. It is virtually always near 100% humidity due to Montreal's proximity to a shit ton of water. There are about 6 weeks of nice weather per year, unless you have a colder summer, so spring seems to last longer. So yeah, in Toronto winter is much much better, and the summer is about the same, so overall win. Vancouver is also nice, but it's a different winter, much more grey sky and rain. But their summers are even nicer. 2) The economy. When I moved to Montreal in 1986 it was in the twilight of its glory, but it still had some glory. It was still an economic powerhouse. It had cheap universities, good healthcare and social insurance. Business was attracted to Quebec. But it had stopped investing in its future by 1986. Nothing was being built for the future and everything was more and more on loan from the past. From 1986 to 2012, when I lived in Montreal, there is virtually no new infrastructure that has been built. Every bit of infrastructure in Montreal was the same one in 2012 that I first encountered in 1986, only in 2012 it was even more decrepit and worn down. Twice I opened the paper to read about a piece of a bridge or tunnel that collapsed on someone's head, once with fatalities, and once miraculously not (it was at like 5 am on a Sunday and it so happened that there were no cars right underneath when it collapsed but it is the Ville Marie tunnel it is a very busy tunnel normally.) Quebec is a fiscal basketcase. It is increasingly in debt with a population that is increasingly Green/Left/Environmentalist that wants less growth, less development, to not "harm the Earth" so to speak. So I have witnessed in my short life Montreal willing destroying everything that once made it the great powerhouse of Canada. No new hydro dams can be built, except for what are called micro-dams, which are meant for powering small local areas and cannot sustain economic and industrial growth. I am not for new hydro dams, I am for advanced nuclear, but Quebec is vehemently anti nuclear. That is a big reason I came to Ontario which is the nuclear capital of Canada. Quebec is certainly anti-coal and oil power as well. That leaves natural gas, which Quebec has and has been using for a long time, and can maintain for awhile as current costs stay low with increased fracking. Quebec is also vehemently anti fracking, which I am as well, being for nuclear as a much saner and safer option. Also solar and wind, which Quebec is overwhelmingly for. What this means is that Quebec's energy costs will soar as the move from cheap and reliable hydro to expensive and unreliable solar and wind. Solar is particularly funny to hear support for from a population that has a winter that lasts 7 months. Also a cultural shift away from wanting to be a technologically advanced society on par with America, to rejecting entirely competition with America and wanting an economy based on restaurants, bars and nightclubs, art galleries, tourist stuff, and other elements of a service economy. This is solely my opinion, and I would love to be proven wrong, but I do not believe this current economic model for Quebec is sustainable, and that is why they are increasingly in debt and overtaxed, and growth has ceased, except for growth in service industries. Ontario on the other hand has the right model I believe. They have much more industry and manufacturing. Alot of it is businesses that moved from Quebec after the 1995 referendum. And that leads me into... 3) The bullshit language politics bullshit. Yeah estie de crisse it's fucking annoying. There is increasing tensions between anglos and francophones especially since 2008 since the economy started doing worse and worse. Separatism is again on the rise. My mother is a teacher in a french elementary school and she is the english teacher. She has seen over the years time and time again an effort to minimize the amount of English that their kids learn, even though it is the world's so-called 2nd language and almost every country wants their kids to learn it (see South Korea for instance.) I speak French fluently, I have had many French gfs over my life, and lots of French friends. It has never been an issue to me, but I have witnessed it's resurgence over the past 5 years and fuck that man. I got the fuck out of Montreal, for a compounding of everything I have said here. Quebec in general I find is more and more a closed insular society, and that is very scary. I used to say I would never move to Ontario, but I could not be happier right now with my decision. It took awhile to make new friends but it was worth it. TLDR: From Montreal. Never thought I would leave. Moved to Toronto because of weather, economic decline and language politics. Couldn't be happier. Fuck the Parti Quebecois they ruined Quebec. "Also a cultural shift away from wanting to be a technologically advanced society on par with America, to rejecting entirely competition with America and wanting an economy based on restaurants, bars and nightclubs, art galleries, tourist stuff, and other elements of a service economy. " WTF are you talking about? You're not making any sense. People, go read and educate yourselves before posting on this issue. You're only promoting hate and distrust by giving out small anecdotal evidence like this one. Of course the PQ is far from perfect. I personally didn't vote for them last election. But to say that they are all racists and close-minded is very ignorant. You obviously don't follow closely Quebec's politics, or don't know about its history, or only read biased sources (*cough* Globe and Mail *cough*). | ||
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Perdac Curall
242 Posts
On January 19 2013 05:14 Xain wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 19 2013 04:43 Perdac Curall wrote: I can't believe there is a thread on this on TL I am so happy. Before I say my piece I'll give you my background. I am English. I was born in Edmonton, Alberta. When I was six I moved to Montreal, and I lived there until I was 32. I moved to Toronto last summer, summer of 2012. It was a choice and a move that took me three years to do since first thinking about it. Here are the reasons why I left Montreal. 1) I will get this out of the way, since it is no one's fault. The weather in Montreal. In winter it can be -30 Celsius with the wind, regularly. The winters of 2009 and 2010 were particularly brutal. 2011 was a "mild" winter, but that only meant a hotter summer. Summer in montreal is not dry. It is virtually always near 100% humidity due to Montreal's proximity to a shit ton of water. There are about 6 weeks of nice weather per year, unless you have a colder summer, so spring seems to last longer. So yeah, in Toronto winter is much much better, and the summer is about the same, so overall win. Vancouver is also nice, but it's a different winter, much more grey sky and rain. But their summers are even nicer. 2) The economy. When I moved to Montreal in 1986 it was in the twilight of its glory, but it still had some glory. It was still an economic powerhouse. It had cheap universities, good healthcare and social insurance. Business was attracted to Quebec. But it had stopped investing in its future by 1986. Nothing was being built for the future and everything was more and more on loan from the past. From 1986 to 2012, when I lived in Montreal, there is virtually no new infrastructure that has been built. Every bit of infrastructure in Montreal was the same one in 2012 that I first encountered in 1986, only in 2012 it was even more decrepit and worn down. Twice I opened the paper to read about a piece of a bridge or tunnel that collapsed on someone's head, once with fatalities, and once miraculously not (it was at like 5 am on a Sunday and it so happened that there were no cars right underneath when it collapsed but it is the Ville Marie tunnel it is a very busy tunnel normally.) Quebec is a fiscal basketcase. It is increasingly in debt with a population that is increasingly Green/Left/Environmentalist that wants less growth, less development, to not "harm the Earth" so to speak. So I have witnessed in my short life Montreal willing destroying everything that once made it the great powerhouse of Canada. No new hydro dams can be built, except for what are called micro-dams, which are meant for powering small local areas and cannot sustain economic and industrial growth. I am not for new hydro dams, I am for advanced nuclear, but Quebec is vehemently anti nuclear. That is a big reason I came to Ontario which is the nuclear capital of Canada. Quebec is certainly anti-coal and oil power as well. That leaves natural gas, which Quebec has and has been using for a long time, and can maintain for awhile as current costs stay low with increased fracking. Quebec is also vehemently anti fracking, which I am as well, being for nuclear as a much saner and safer option. Also solar and wind, which Quebec is overwhelmingly for. What this means is that Quebec's energy costs will soar as the move from cheap and reliable hydro to expensive and unreliable solar and wind. Solar is particularly funny to hear support for from a population that has a winter that lasts 7 months. Also a cultural shift away from wanting to be a technologically advanced society on par with America, to rejecting entirely competition with America and wanting an economy based on restaurants, bars and nightclubs, art galleries, tourist stuff, and other elements of a service economy. This is solely my opinion, and I would love to be proven wrong, but I do not believe this current economic model for Quebec is sustainable, and that is why they are increasingly in debt and overtaxed, and growth has ceased, except for growth in service industries. Ontario on the other hand has the right model I believe. They have much more industry and manufacturing. Alot of it is businesses that moved from Quebec after the 1995 referendum. And that leads me into... 3) The bullshit language politics bullshit. Yeah estie de crisse it's fucking annoying. There is increasing tensions between anglos and francophones especially since 2008 since the economy started doing worse and worse. Separatism is again on the rise. My mother is a teacher in a french elementary school and she is the english teacher. She has seen over the years time and time again an effort to minimize the amount of English that their kids learn, even though it is the world's so-called 2nd language and almost every country wants their kids to learn it (see South Korea for instance.) I speak French fluently, I have had many French gfs over my life, and lots of French friends. It has never been an issue to me, but I have witnessed it's resurgence over the past 5 years and fuck that man. I got the fuck out of Montreal, for a compounding of everything I have said here. Quebec in general I find is more and more a closed insular society, and that is very scary. I used to say I would never move to Ontario, but I could not be happier right now with my decision. It took awhile to make new friends but it was worth it. TLDR: From Montreal. Never thought I would leave. Moved to Toronto because of weather, economic decline and language politics. Couldn't be happier. Fuck the Parti Quebecois they ruined Quebec. "Also a cultural shift away from wanting to be a technologically advanced society on par with America, to rejecting entirely competition with America and wanting an economy based on restaurants, bars and nightclubs, art galleries, tourist stuff, and other elements of a service economy. " WTF are you talking about? You're not making any sense. People, go read and educate yourselves before posting on this issue. You're only promoting hate and distrust by giving out small anecdotal evidence like this one. Of course the PQ is far from perfect. I personally didn't vote for them last election. But to say that they are all racists, close-minded, and hurt Quebec financially is very ignorant. You obviously don't follow closely Quebec's politics, or don't know about its history, or only read biased sources (*cough* Globe and Mail *cough*). The economic decline of Quebec has been ongoing since the 1980s and is very reliably sourced, and not from the G&M, from actual economic statistics. The Quebec government is now subsidizing video games. Now I know we all love video games here, but you can't base an economy on useless fluff like this. This is what I meant by cultural shift in Montreal. Montreal used to be the industrial powerhouse of Canada. Productive enterprises, productive labor. Many of them left down the 401 after 1995. That is a well established fact. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 19 2013 05:07 sickoota wrote: My university (mcgill) is getting 100s of courses eliminated because of these cuts. I am just a Toronto born student currently residing in montreal for my studies so I don't really feel like I have too much of a right to judge Quebec's internal politics, and I definitely detect a large amount of sensationalism in the OP. However, the politics of pointless nationalism (or provincalism I guess in this case), divisive politics and scapegoats which steal focus from REAL issues and direct them towards senseless chest thumping and manufactured attacks to collective "pride" are present in every government on earth and are equally distasteful in all circumstances. Governments should focus on governing, not furthering ideological agendas that have little to no impact on the welfare of their citizens, and when the former impedes their ability to perform the latter... I guess I find it very sad, even more so of course when it impedes my ability to get a quality education. You do completely have a right to judge Quebec's internal politics, and I think you do make a point. However you have to understand that there is a belief that this ideological agenda, even though it's not directly related to the welfare of the citizen, is viewed as a step toward better conditions, albeit indirectly. Seceding has a bunch of incidences, economic ones for sure, but also social ones. Whether they're right or wrong is obviously an entire debate. | ||
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Xain
Canada94 Posts
On January 19 2013 05:20 Perdac Curall wrote: The economic decline of Quebec has been ongoing since the 1980s and is very reliably sourced, and not from the G&M, from actual economic statistics. The Quebec government is now subsidizing video games. Now I know we all love video games here, but you can't base an economy on useless fluff like this. This is what I meant by cultural shift in Montreal. Montreal used to be the industrial powerhouse of Canada. Productive enterprises, productive labor. Many of them left down the 401 after 1995. That is a well established fact. But what you don't understand is that the decline of Montreal versus Toronto can be traced back to the war economy of the second world war, well before the PQ existed. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
I have to say that this attitude of "PQ being environmentalist leftist isolationalist" isn't really that accurate. In fact, Marois has indicated that she is open to talk about the construction of a pipeline from Alberta to Quebec despite the local unpopularity of such act. (Meanwhile, BC and Alberta continue to wrestle on similar issues..) EDIT: As immigrants, I have absolute confidence in saying that I'd get less discrimination in Quebec than most of the rest of the world, even in developed countries. In fact, my grandma who came to visit us from Asia without speaking a single word of French once said that Quebecers/Canadians are probably the nicest people on Earth. (Don't know about that, but compared to mainland China where she lives, I think that's understandable lol). She was amazed by the fact that random people would open doors for her, help her with bags and even give change to her when she shops because she didn't understand the money that well at first. + Show Spoiler + "Treason to the crown" HAHAHAHA | ||
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Abraxas514
Canada475 Posts
On January 19 2013 05:14 Xain wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 19 2013 04:43 Perdac Curall wrote: I can't believe there is a thread on this on TL I am so happy. Before I say my piece I'll give you my background. I am English. I was born in Edmonton, Alberta. When I was six I moved to Montreal, and I lived there until I was 32. I moved to Toronto last summer, summer of 2012. It was a choice and a move that took me three years to do since first thinking about it. Here are the reasons why I left Montreal. 1) I will get this out of the way, since it is no one's fault. The weather in Montreal. In winter it can be -30 Celsius with the wind, regularly. The winters of 2009 and 2010 were particularly brutal. 2011 was a "mild" winter, but that only meant a hotter summer. Summer in montreal is not dry. It is virtually always near 100% humidity due to Montreal's proximity to a shit ton of water. There are about 6 weeks of nice weather per year, unless you have a colder summer, so spring seems to last longer. So yeah, in Toronto winter is much much better, and the summer is about the same, so overall win. Vancouver is also nice, but it's a different winter, much more grey sky and rain. But their summers are even nicer. 2) The economy. When I moved to Montreal in 1986 it was in the twilight of its glory, but it still had some glory. It was still an economic powerhouse. It had cheap universities, good healthcare and social insurance. Business was attracted to Quebec. But it had stopped investing in its future by 1986. Nothing was being built for the future and everything was more and more on loan from the past. From 1986 to 2012, when I lived in Montreal, there is virtually no new infrastructure that has been built. Every bit of infrastructure in Montreal was the same one in 2012 that I first encountered in 1986, only in 2012 it was even more decrepit and worn down. Twice I opened the paper to read about a piece of a bridge or tunnel that collapsed on someone's head, once with fatalities, and once miraculously not (it was at like 5 am on a Sunday and it so happened that there were no cars right underneath when it collapsed but it is the Ville Marie tunnel it is a very busy tunnel normally.) Quebec is a fiscal basketcase. It is increasingly in debt with a population that is increasingly Green/Left/Environmentalist that wants less growth, less development, to not "harm the Earth" so to speak. So I have witnessed in my short life Montreal willing destroying everything that once made it the great powerhouse of Canada. No new hydro dams can be built, except for what are called micro-dams, which are meant for powering small local areas and cannot sustain economic and industrial growth. I am not for new hydro dams, I am for advanced nuclear, but Quebec is vehemently anti nuclear. That is a big reason I came to Ontario which is the nuclear capital of Canada. Quebec is certainly anti-coal and oil power as well. That leaves natural gas, which Quebec has and has been using for a long time, and can maintain for awhile as current costs stay low with increased fracking. Quebec is also vehemently anti fracking, which I am as well, being for nuclear as a much saner and safer option. Also solar and wind, which Quebec is overwhelmingly for. What this means is that Quebec's energy costs will soar as the move from cheap and reliable hydro to expensive and unreliable solar and wind. Solar is particularly funny to hear support for from a population that has a winter that lasts 7 months. Also a cultural shift away from wanting to be a technologically advanced society on par with America, to rejecting entirely competition with America and wanting an economy based on restaurants, bars and nightclubs, art galleries, tourist stuff, and other elements of a service economy. This is solely my opinion, and I would love to be proven wrong, but I do not believe this current economic model for Quebec is sustainable, and that is why they are increasingly in debt and overtaxed, and growth has ceased, except for growth in service industries. Ontario on the other hand has the right model I believe. They have much more industry and manufacturing. Alot of it is businesses that moved from Quebec after the 1995 referendum. And that leads me into... 3) The bullshit language politics bullshit. Yeah estie de crisse it's fucking annoying. There is increasing tensions between anglos and francophones especially since 2008 since the economy started doing worse and worse. Separatism is again on the rise. My mother is a teacher in a french elementary school and she is the english teacher. She has seen over the years time and time again an effort to minimize the amount of English that their kids learn, even though it is the world's so-called 2nd language and almost every country wants their kids to learn it (see South Korea for instance.) I speak French fluently, I have had many French gfs over my life, and lots of French friends. It has never been an issue to me, but I have witnessed it's resurgence over the past 5 years and fuck that man. I got the fuck out of Montreal, for a compounding of everything I have said here. Quebec in general I find is more and more a closed insular society, and that is very scary. I used to say I would never move to Ontario, but I could not be happier right now with my decision. It took awhile to make new friends but it was worth it. TLDR: From Montreal. Never thought I would leave. Moved to Toronto because of weather, economic decline and language politics. Couldn't be happier. Fuck the Parti Quebecois they ruined Quebec. "Also a cultural shift away from wanting to be a technologically advanced society on par with America, to rejecting entirely competition with America and wanting an economy based on restaurants, bars and nightclubs, art galleries, tourist stuff, and other elements of a service economy. " WTF are you talking about? You're not making any sense. People, go read and educate yourselves before posting on this issue. You're only promoting hate and distrust by giving out small anecdotal evidence like this one. Of course the PQ is far from perfect. I personally didn't vote for them last election. But to say that they are all racists and close-minded is very ignorant. You obviously don't follow closely Quebec's politics, or don't know about its history, or only read biased sources (*cough* Globe and Mail *cough*). He was making a comparison to Montreal's past. Between the 60s and 70s it was a place as forward thinking as New York City. The Expo (1967). The Olympics (1976). Ville Marie Tunnel (1972). Champlain Bridge (1962). Mercier Bridge (1963). Pont de la Concorde and Pont des Îles (bridges) (1965). Lafontaine Tunnel (1967). Charles de Gaulle Bridge (1965). Pie IX Bridge (1967). Papineau-Leblanc Bridge (1969). Jacques Bizard Bridge (1966). Our on-island airport: In November 1960, the airport was renamed Montreal–Dorval International Airport/Aéroport international Dorval de Montréal. On December 15 of that year, the Minister of Transport inaugurated a new $30 million terminal. I can go on and on about how great a city Montreal was before I was born (in 1987) but every time I hear about how amazing a place it was to live in I feel like that was somewhere else, a place lost in time. It's only a matter of time before a particularily strong resurgence of nationalism pops up and ALL the anglos just pack up and leave. | ||
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