On November 13 2012 01:36 WP_Insanity wrote: I think you can separate the followers of the NPD in roughly 3 groups: 1) Young Neo-Nazis who truly believe in the third reich in the the way it was under hitlers dictatorship because of bad education and the will to have a different and extreme opinion to separate from others.
2) People who dont like the situation who are sick of the "empty talk" of politicians think NPD can change something with their aggressive attitude. These People often dont really think about that it could end in another third reich thought.
3) Older people who have the "back then everything was better" mindset.
So how can this change? I think 3) will solved by time itself. Solving 2) should be the task of the big partys and/or the way the media presents stuff (media seems biased in politic stuff anyways, so why not in a good direction?). What about 1? Well to be honest i dont think you can completly rule out the problem but that should be fine.
What "Good old times" would older people remember? The 20s? The 30s? The 6 years of war, 10 years of rebuilding destroyed cities and 40 years of US and Soviet occupation?
Or are there like, 130 year olds I haven't heard of that still remember the days of Wilhelms.
Maybe they are old enough to remember the miraculous economic recovery that took place as a result of National Socialist policies, and the brief but booming and prosperous time before Britain and France declared war? You post so confidently about a subject where your knowledge seems to be severely lacking.
How Hitler Tackled Unemployment And Revived Germany’s Economy
[...]
As he had promised, Hitler and his National Socialist government banished unemployment within four years. The number of jobless was cut from six million at the beginning of 1933, when he took power, to one million by 1936. / 7 So rapidly was the jobless rate reduced that by 1937-38 there was a national labor shortage. / 8
For the great mass of Germans, wages and working conditions improved steadily. From 1932 to 1938 gross real weekly earnings increased by 21 percent. After taking into account tax and insurance deductions and adjustments to the cost of living, the increase in real weekly earnings during this period was 14 percent. At the same time, rents remained stable, and there was a relative decline in the costs of heating and light. Prices actually declined for some consumer goods, such as electrical appliances, clocks and watches, as well as for some foods. "Consumer prices rose at an average annual rate of just 1.2 percent between 1933 and 1939," notes British historian Niall Ferguson. "This meant that Germans workers were better off in real as well as nominal terms: between 1933 and 1938, weekly net earnings (after tax) rose by 22 percent, while the cost of living rose by just seven percent." Even after the outbreak of war in September 1939, workers’ income continued to rise. By 1943 average hourly earnings of German workers had risen by 25 percent, and weekly earnings by 41 percent. / 9
The “normal” work day for most Germans was eight hours, and pay for overtime work was generous. / 10 In addition to higher wages, benefits included markedly improved working conditions, such as better health and safety conditions, canteens with subsidized hot meals, athletic fields, parks, subsidized theater performances and concerts, exhibitions, sports and hiking groups, dances, adult education courses, and subsidized tourism. / 11 An already extensive network of social welfare programs, including old age insurance and a national health care program, was expanded.
Hitler wanted Germans to have “the highest possible standard of living,” he said in an interview with an American journalist in early 1934. “In my opinion, the Americans are right in not wanting to make everyone the same but rather in upholding the principle of the ladder. However, every single person must be granted the opportunity to climb up the ladder.” / 12 In keeping with this outlook, Hitler’s government promoted social mobility, with wide opportunities to improve and advance. As Prof. Garraty notes: “It is beyond argument that the Nazis encouraged working-class social and economic mobility.” To encourage acquisition of new skills, the government greatly expanded vocational training programs, and offered generous incentives for further advancement of efficient workers. / 13
Both National Socialist ideology and Hitler’s basic outlook, writes historian John Garraty, “inclined the regime to favor the ordinary German over any elite group. Workers … had an honored place in the system.” In accord with this, the regime provided substantive fringe benefits for workers that included subsidized housing, low-cost excursions, sports programs, and more pleasing factory facilities. / 14
In his detailed and critical biography of Hitler, historian Joachim Fest acknowledged: “The regime insisted that it was not the rule of one social class above all others, and by granting everyone opportunities to rise, it in fact demonstrated class neutrality … These measures did indeed break through the old, petrified social structures. They tangibly improved the material condition of much of the population.” / 15
A few figures give an idea of how the quality of life improved. Between 1932, the last year of the pre-Hitler era, and 1938, the last full year before the outbreak of war, food consumption increased by one sixth, while clothing and textile turnover increased by more than a quarter, and of furniture and household goods by 50 percent. / 16 During the Third Reich’s peacetime years, wine consumption rose by 50 percent, and champagne consumption increased five-fold. / 17 Between 1932 and 1938, the volume of tourism more than doubled, while automobile ownership during the 1930s tripled. / 18 German motor vehicle production, which included cars made by the US-owned Ford and General Motors (Opel) works, doubled in the five years of 1932 to 1937, while Germany’s motor vehicle exports increased eight-fold. Air passenger traffic in Germany more than tripled from 1933 to 1937. / 19
German business revived and prospered. During the first four years of the National Socialist era, net profits of large corporations quadrupled, and managerial and entrepreneurial income rose by nearly 50 percent. / 20 Between 1933 and 1938, notes historian Niall Ferguson, Germany's "gross domestic product grew, on average, by a remarkable eleven percent a year," with no significant increase in the rate of inflation. / 21 “Things were to get even better,” writes Jewish historian Richard Grunberger in his detailed study, The Twelve-Year Reich. “In the three years between 1939 and 1942 German industry expanded as much as it had during the preceding fifty years.” / 20
Well as always people without hope (job, education, ghost-towns) tend to get extrem in their ways. I think many people are way too alerted that this happens 'again' in germany. Nothing special if you look at every other country with imigration around the world. 30 Years in one of the largest city in germany and I have only seen ONE dude with a retarded cross on his head.
The pre-punk - left wing extremist (bored and wanna change something) are more extrem than any nazigroup at the moment in Germany. Anarchyretards everywhere.
On November 13 2012 02:27 Yuljan wrote: 9%? Why not quote the important figure. 36,2% are extremely against islam and 60,2% are critical of islam. The rise of people willing to vote the idiotic far right parties is because no other party recognizes the majority of the population. We are getting fed bullshit about integration and culturally enriching immigrants that are nowhere near recognizing the reality of the situation.
this is the main fact !
Even though many muslims are integrated many other arent... during the 60´s many uneducated muslims were brought to Germany to rebuild it but they moved into ghetto-like districts and nobody took care of them... So neither the parents learned to speak and to write German nor their children. They stayed often isolated and combined with poverty , a lack of education and a culture that supports this isolation by just staying in the family while having no initiative to learn and adapt the German culture and language "many" muslims (especially turkish immigrants) are conservative, unprogressive and uneducated which leads to more violence and a higher rate of unemployment
On November 13 2012 02:36 zalz wrote: Nazi's simply were not socialists. The socialist parts of the party were marginalized and executed during the night of the long knives.
They are as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic.
-
Also, one cannot seperate the crimes of the Nazi regime from its economical achievements. The economic strides that Nazi Germany were the result of its military build-up. The entire foundation would have fallen out from under it, had they not gone to war.
The only way to make military keynesianism viable is through going to war before the bill is presented.
The murder of millions is the direct result of the economic policies of Nazi-Germany.
Had they not gone to war, their economy could not have sustained itself. Everyone in Europe was sacrificed upon the altar of German recovery.
What you are saying is simply not true. I suggest you read this whole article to get a better understanding of the subject:
How Hitler Tackled Unemployment And Revived Germany’s Economy
[...]
It’s often been claimed, even by some supposedly reputable scholars, that Hitler’s success in reviving his nation’s economic life was based largely on government spending for rearmament and preparation for war. This is a myth. As the renowned British historian A. J. P. Taylor noted: / 37 “Germany’s economic recovery, which was complete by 1936, did not rest on rearmamnent; it was caused mainly by lavish expenditure on public works, particularly on motor roads, and this public spending stimulated private spending also, as [British economist John Maynard] Keynes had said it would. Hitler actually skimped on armaments, despite his boasting, partly because he wished to avoid the unpopularitiy which a reduction of the German standard of living would cause, but more from the confident belief that he would always succeed in bluff. Thus, paradoxidcally, while nearly eveeryone else in Europe expected a great war, Hitler was the one man who neither expected nor planned for it.”
On November 13 2012 01:36 WP_Insanity wrote: I think you can separate the followers of the NPD in roughly 3 groups: 1) Young Neo-Nazis who truly believe in the third reich in the the way it was under hitlers dictatorship because of bad education and the will to have a different and extreme opinion to separate from others.
2) People who dont like the situation who are sick of the "empty talk" of politicians think NPD can change something with their aggressive attitude. These People often dont really think about that it could end in another third reich thought.
3) Older people who have the "back then everything was better" mindset.
So how can this change? I think 3) will solved by time itself. Solving 2) should be the task of the big partys and/or the way the media presents stuff (media seems biased in politic stuff anyways, so why not in a good direction?). What about 1? Well to be honest i dont think you can completly rule out the problem but that should be fine.
What "Good old times" would older people remember? The 20s? The 30s? The 6 years of war, 10 years of rebuilding destroyed cities and 40 years of US and Soviet occupation?
Or are there like, 130 year olds I haven't heard of that still remember the days of Wilhelms.
Maybe they are old enough to remember the miraculous economic recovery that took place as a result of National Socialist policies, and the brief but booming and prosperous time before Britain and France declared war? You post so confidently about a subject where your knowledge seems to be severely lacking.
How Hitler Tackled Unemployment And Revived Germany’s Economy
[...]
As he had promised, Hitler and his National Socialist government banished unemployment within four years. The number of jobless was cut from six million at the beginning of 1933, when he took power, to one million by 1936. / 7 So rapidly was the jobless rate reduced that by 1937-38 there was a national labor shortage. / 8
For the great mass of Germans, wages and working conditions improved steadily. From 1932 to 1938 gross real weekly earnings increased by 21 percent. After taking into account tax and insurance deductions and adjustments to the cost of living, the increase in real weekly earnings during this period was 14 percent. At the same time, rents remained stable, and there was a relative decline in the costs of heating and light. Prices actually declined for some consumer goods, such as electrical appliances, clocks and watches, as well as for some foods. "Consumer prices rose at an average annual rate of just 1.2 percent between 1933 and 1939," notes British historian Niall Ferguson. "This meant that Germans workers were better off in real as well as nominal terms: between 1933 and 1938, weekly net earnings (after tax) rose by 22 percent, while the cost of living rose by just seven percent." Even after the outbreak of war in September 1939, workers’ income continued to rise. By 1943 average hourly earnings of German workers had risen by 25 percent, and weekly earnings by 41 percent. / 9
The “normal” work day for most Germans was eight hours, and pay for overtime work was generous. / 10 In addition to higher wages, benefits included markedly improved working conditions, such as better health and safety conditions, canteens with subsidized hot meals, athletic fields, parks, subsidized theater performances and concerts, exhibitions, sports and hiking groups, dances, adult education courses, and subsidized tourism. / 11 An already extensive network of social welfare programs, including old age insurance and a national health care program, was expanded.
Hitler wanted Germans to have “the highest possible standard of living,” he said in an interview with an American journalist in early 1934. “In my opinion, the Americans are right in not wanting to make everyone the same but rather in upholding the principle of the ladder. However, every single person must be granted the opportunity to climb up the ladder.” / 12 In keeping with this outlook, Hitler’s government promoted social mobility, with wide opportunities to improve and advance. As Prof. Garraty notes: “It is beyond argument that the Nazis encouraged working-class social and economic mobility.” To encourage acquisition of new skills, the government greatly expanded vocational training programs, and offered generous incentives for further advancement of efficient workers. / 13
Both National Socialist ideology and Hitler’s basic outlook, writes historian John Garraty, “inclined the regime to favor the ordinary German over any elite group. Workers … had an honored place in the system.” In accord with this, the regime provided substantive fringe benefits for workers that included subsidized housing, low-cost excursions, sports programs, and more pleasing factory facilities. / 14
In his detailed and critical biography of Hitler, historian Joachim Fest acknowledged: “The regime insisted that it was not the rule of one social class above all others, and by granting everyone opportunities to rise, it in fact demonstrated class neutrality … These measures did indeed break through the old, petrified social structures. They tangibly improved the material condition of much of the population.” / 15
A few figures give an idea of how the quality of life improved. Between 1932, the last year of the pre-Hitler era, and 1938, the last full year before the outbreak of war, food consumption increased by one sixth, while clothing and textile turnover increased by more than a quarter, and of furniture and household goods by 50 percent. / 16 During the Third Reich’s peacetime years, wine consumption rose by 50 percent, and champagne consumption increased five-fold. / 17 Between 1932 and 1938, the volume of tourism more than doubled, while automobile ownership during the 1930s tripled. / 18 German motor vehicle production, which included cars made by the US-owned Ford and General Motors (Opel) works, doubled in the five years of 1932 to 1937, while Germany’s motor vehicle exports increased eight-fold. Air passenger traffic in Germany more than tripled from 1933 to 1937. / 19
German business revived and prospered. During the first four years of the National Socialist era, net profits of large corporations quadrupled, and managerial and entrepreneurial income rose by nearly 50 percent. / 20 Between 1933 and 1938, notes historian Niall Ferguson, Germany's "gross domestic product grew, on average, by a remarkable eleven percent a year," with no significant increase in the rate of inflation. / 21 “Things were to get even better,” writes Jewish historian Richard Grunberger in his detailed study, The Twelve-Year Reich. “In the three years between 1939 and 1942 German industry expanded as much as it had during the preceding fifty years.” / 20
You seem to have a problem discerning a joke from an invitation to copy/paste a wall of text. Although you did make me smile even more.
Sorry, I didn't recognize it as a joke because there was no identifiable humor in it.
It appeared to be just wrong opinions made up based on limited understanding of history and an irrational hatred of Nazis.
What would rational hatred of Nazis look like? If you're looking for "Oh, these Nazis are just not my sort of people. Tata!" I think there are other sites more befitting your......."standards".
On November 13 2012 00:16 solidbebe wrote: Neonazis make me feel sick to the stomach. Worst part of it are the people who know exactly what happened with Hitler and are still neonazis. Scum of the earth...
I guess fucked up people will always be around, its when they get to power that things go wrong.
Nazis have nothing against the Jews that was strictly Hitler, so whats your big problem with them?
Nazi(fascism is general..) ideology believes that force is the way to go. I think that's shitty and make the world a shitty place to live, you can't have freedom if you're afraid people are gonna kill you because of the way you look.
Aren't the ones banning political parties and criminalizing skepticism of the holocaust the people who believe in force?
Here in Germany it is not a "forceful" act. It takes several years and couple of instance to go trough. It is an act of justice, if legal reasons can be found justice will be spoken according to the written law which everyone agreed to.
On November 13 2012 01:36 WP_Insanity wrote: I think you can separate the followers of the NPD in roughly 3 groups: 1) Young Neo-Nazis who truly believe in the third reich in the the way it was under hitlers dictatorship because of bad education and the will to have a different and extreme opinion to separate from others.
2) People who dont like the situation who are sick of the "empty talk" of politicians think NPD can change something with their aggressive attitude. These People often dont really think about that it could end in another third reich thought.
3) Older people who have the "back then everything was better" mindset.
So how can this change? I think 3) will solved by time itself. Solving 2) should be the task of the big partys and/or the way the media presents stuff (media seems biased in politic stuff anyways, so why not in a good direction?). What about 1? Well to be honest i dont think you can completly rule out the problem but that should be fine.
What "Good old times" would older people remember? The 20s? The 30s? The 6 years of war, 10 years of rebuilding destroyed cities and 40 years of US and Soviet occupation?
Or are there like, 130 year olds I haven't heard of that still remember the days of Wilhelms.
Maybe they are old enough to remember the miraculous economic recovery that took place as a result of National Socialist policies, and the brief but booming and prosperous time before Britain and France declared war? You post so confidently about a subject where your knowledge seems to be severely lacking.
How Hitler Tackled Unemployment And Revived Germany’s Economy
[...]
As he had promised, Hitler and his National Socialist government banished unemployment within four years. The number of jobless was cut from six million at the beginning of 1933, when he took power, to one million by 1936. / 7 So rapidly was the jobless rate reduced that by 1937-38 there was a national labor shortage. / 8
For the great mass of Germans, wages and working conditions improved steadily. From 1932 to 1938 gross real weekly earnings increased by 21 percent. After taking into account tax and insurance deductions and adjustments to the cost of living, the increase in real weekly earnings during this period was 14 percent. At the same time, rents remained stable, and there was a relative decline in the costs of heating and light. Prices actually declined for some consumer goods, such as electrical appliances, clocks and watches, as well as for some foods. "Consumer prices rose at an average annual rate of just 1.2 percent between 1933 and 1939," notes British historian Niall Ferguson. "This meant that Germans workers were better off in real as well as nominal terms: between 1933 and 1938, weekly net earnings (after tax) rose by 22 percent, while the cost of living rose by just seven percent." Even after the outbreak of war in September 1939, workers’ income continued to rise. By 1943 average hourly earnings of German workers had risen by 25 percent, and weekly earnings by 41 percent. / 9
The “normal” work day for most Germans was eight hours, and pay for overtime work was generous. / 10 In addition to higher wages, benefits included markedly improved working conditions, such as better health and safety conditions, canteens with subsidized hot meals, athletic fields, parks, subsidized theater performances and concerts, exhibitions, sports and hiking groups, dances, adult education courses, and subsidized tourism. / 11 An already extensive network of social welfare programs, including old age insurance and a national health care program, was expanded.
Hitler wanted Germans to have “the highest possible standard of living,” he said in an interview with an American journalist in early 1934. “In my opinion, the Americans are right in not wanting to make everyone the same but rather in upholding the principle of the ladder. However, every single person must be granted the opportunity to climb up the ladder.” / 12 In keeping with this outlook, Hitler’s government promoted social mobility, with wide opportunities to improve and advance. As Prof. Garraty notes: “It is beyond argument that the Nazis encouraged working-class social and economic mobility.” To encourage acquisition of new skills, the government greatly expanded vocational training programs, and offered generous incentives for further advancement of efficient workers. / 13
Both National Socialist ideology and Hitler’s basic outlook, writes historian John Garraty, “inclined the regime to favor the ordinary German over any elite group. Workers … had an honored place in the system.” In accord with this, the regime provided substantive fringe benefits for workers that included subsidized housing, low-cost excursions, sports programs, and more pleasing factory facilities. / 14
In his detailed and critical biography of Hitler, historian Joachim Fest acknowledged: “The regime insisted that it was not the rule of one social class above all others, and by granting everyone opportunities to rise, it in fact demonstrated class neutrality … These measures did indeed break through the old, petrified social structures. They tangibly improved the material condition of much of the population.” / 15
A few figures give an idea of how the quality of life improved. Between 1932, the last year of the pre-Hitler era, and 1938, the last full year before the outbreak of war, food consumption increased by one sixth, while clothing and textile turnover increased by more than a quarter, and of furniture and household goods by 50 percent. / 16 During the Third Reich’s peacetime years, wine consumption rose by 50 percent, and champagne consumption increased five-fold. / 17 Between 1932 and 1938, the volume of tourism more than doubled, while automobile ownership during the 1930s tripled. / 18 German motor vehicle production, which included cars made by the US-owned Ford and General Motors (Opel) works, doubled in the five years of 1932 to 1937, while Germany’s motor vehicle exports increased eight-fold. Air passenger traffic in Germany more than tripled from 1933 to 1937. / 19
German business revived and prospered. During the first four years of the National Socialist era, net profits of large corporations quadrupled, and managerial and entrepreneurial income rose by nearly 50 percent. / 20 Between 1933 and 1938, notes historian Niall Ferguson, Germany's "gross domestic product grew, on average, by a remarkable eleven percent a year," with no significant increase in the rate of inflation. / 21 “Things were to get even better,” writes Jewish historian Richard Grunberger in his detailed study, The Twelve-Year Reich. “In the three years between 1939 and 1942 German industry expanded as much as it had during the preceding fifty years.” / 20
Yes, Hitler's economic policies were revolutionary. I particularly liked when he seized all the property from jewish people and other minorities, didn't allow women to work (and did not count them or the jews as unemployed), and built an economy largely around militarisation and also coincidentally an enormous deficit.
On November 13 2012 01:36 WP_Insanity wrote: I think you can separate the followers of the NPD in roughly 3 groups: 1) Young Neo-Nazis who truly believe in the third reich in the the way it was under hitlers dictatorship because of bad education and the will to have a different and extreme opinion to separate from others.
2) People who dont like the situation who are sick of the "empty talk" of politicians think NPD can change something with their aggressive attitude. These People often dont really think about that it could end in another third reich thought.
3) Older people who have the "back then everything was better" mindset.
So how can this change? I think 3) will solved by time itself. Solving 2) should be the task of the big partys and/or the way the media presents stuff (media seems biased in politic stuff anyways, so why not in a good direction?). What about 1? Well to be honest i dont think you can completly rule out the problem but that should be fine.
What "Good old times" would older people remember? The 20s? The 30s? The 6 years of war, 10 years of rebuilding destroyed cities and 40 years of US and Soviet occupation?
Or are there like, 130 year olds I haven't heard of that still remember the days of Wilhelms.
Maybe they are old enough to remember the miraculous economic recovery that took place as a result of National Socialist policies, and the brief but booming and prosperous time before Britain and France declared war? You post so confidently about a subject where your knowledge seems to be severely lacking.
How Hitler Tackled Unemployment And Revived Germany’s Economy
[...]
As he had promised, Hitler and his National Socialist government banished unemployment within four years. The number of jobless was cut from six million at the beginning of 1933, when he took power, to one million by 1936. / 7 So rapidly was the jobless rate reduced that by 1937-38 there was a national labor shortage. / 8
For the great mass of Germans, wages and working conditions improved steadily. From 1932 to 1938 gross real weekly earnings increased by 21 percent. After taking into account tax and insurance deductions and adjustments to the cost of living, the increase in real weekly earnings during this period was 14 percent. At the same time, rents remained stable, and there was a relative decline in the costs of heating and light. Prices actually declined for some consumer goods, such as electrical appliances, clocks and watches, as well as for some foods. "Consumer prices rose at an average annual rate of just 1.2 percent between 1933 and 1939," notes British historian Niall Ferguson. "This meant that Germans workers were better off in real as well as nominal terms: between 1933 and 1938, weekly net earnings (after tax) rose by 22 percent, while the cost of living rose by just seven percent." Even after the outbreak of war in September 1939, workers’ income continued to rise. By 1943 average hourly earnings of German workers had risen by 25 percent, and weekly earnings by 41 percent. / 9
The “normal” work day for most Germans was eight hours, and pay for overtime work was generous. / 10 In addition to higher wages, benefits included markedly improved working conditions, such as better health and safety conditions, canteens with subsidized hot meals, athletic fields, parks, subsidized theater performances and concerts, exhibitions, sports and hiking groups, dances, adult education courses, and subsidized tourism. / 11 An already extensive network of social welfare programs, including old age insurance and a national health care program, was expanded.
Hitler wanted Germans to have “the highest possible standard of living,” he said in an interview with an American journalist in early 1934. “In my opinion, the Americans are right in not wanting to make everyone the same but rather in upholding the principle of the ladder. However, every single person must be granted the opportunity to climb up the ladder.” / 12 In keeping with this outlook, Hitler’s government promoted social mobility, with wide opportunities to improve and advance. As Prof. Garraty notes: “It is beyond argument that the Nazis encouraged working-class social and economic mobility.” To encourage acquisition of new skills, the government greatly expanded vocational training programs, and offered generous incentives for further advancement of efficient workers. / 13
Both National Socialist ideology and Hitler’s basic outlook, writes historian John Garraty, “inclined the regime to favor the ordinary German over any elite group. Workers … had an honored place in the system.” In accord with this, the regime provided substantive fringe benefits for workers that included subsidized housing, low-cost excursions, sports programs, and more pleasing factory facilities. / 14
In his detailed and critical biography of Hitler, historian Joachim Fest acknowledged: “The regime insisted that it was not the rule of one social class above all others, and by granting everyone opportunities to rise, it in fact demonstrated class neutrality … These measures did indeed break through the old, petrified social structures. They tangibly improved the material condition of much of the population.” / 15
A few figures give an idea of how the quality of life improved. Between 1932, the last year of the pre-Hitler era, and 1938, the last full year before the outbreak of war, food consumption increased by one sixth, while clothing and textile turnover increased by more than a quarter, and of furniture and household goods by 50 percent. / 16 During the Third Reich’s peacetime years, wine consumption rose by 50 percent, and champagne consumption increased five-fold. / 17 Between 1932 and 1938, the volume of tourism more than doubled, while automobile ownership during the 1930s tripled. / 18 German motor vehicle production, which included cars made by the US-owned Ford and General Motors (Opel) works, doubled in the five years of 1932 to 1937, while Germany’s motor vehicle exports increased eight-fold. Air passenger traffic in Germany more than tripled from 1933 to 1937. / 19
German business revived and prospered. During the first four years of the National Socialist era, net profits of large corporations quadrupled, and managerial and entrepreneurial income rose by nearly 50 percent. / 20 Between 1933 and 1938, notes historian Niall Ferguson, Germany's "gross domestic product grew, on average, by a remarkable eleven percent a year," with no significant increase in the rate of inflation. / 21 “Things were to get even better,” writes Jewish historian Richard Grunberger in his detailed study, The Twelve-Year Reich. “In the three years between 1939 and 1942 German industry expanded as much as it had during the preceding fifty years.” / 20
You seem to have a problem discerning a joke from an invitation to copy/paste a wall of text. Although you did make me smile even more.
Sorry, I didn't recognize it as a joke because there was no identifiable humor in it.
It appeared to be just wrong opinions made up based on limited understanding of history and an irrational hatred of Nazis.
What would rational hatred of Nazis look like? If you're looking for "Oh, these Nazis are just not my sort of people. Tata!" I think there are other sites more befitting your......."standards".
Rational hatred of Nazis: criticizing them for bad things they did.
Irrational hatred of Nazis: claiming they never did anything good, denying the existence of the economic prosperity under Nazi rule, blaming all their success on militarism, etc.
On November 13 2012 02:36 zalz wrote: Nazi's simply were not socialists. The socialist parts of the party were marginalized and executed during the night of the long knives.
They are as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic.
-
Also, one cannot seperate the crimes of the Nazi regime from its economical achievements. The economic strides that Nazi Germany were the result of its military build-up. The entire foundation would have fallen out from under it, had they not gone to war.
The only way to make military keynesianism viable is through going to war before the bill is presented.
The murder of millions is the direct result of the economic policies of Nazi-Germany.
Had they not gone to war, their economy could not have sustained itself. Everyone in Europe was sacrificed upon the altar of German recovery.
What you are saying is simply not true. I suggest you read this whole article to get a better understanding of the subject:
How Hitler Tackled Unemployment And Revived Germany’s Economy
[...]
It’s often been claimed, even by some supposedly reputable scholars, that Hitler’s success in reviving his nation’s economic life was based largely on government spending for rearmament and preparation for war. This is a myth. As the renowned British historian A. J. P. Taylor noted: / 37 “Germany’s economic recovery, which was complete by 1936, did not rest on rearmamnent; it was caused mainly by lavish expenditure on public works, particularly on motor roads, and this public spending stimulated private spending also, as [British economist John Maynard] Keynes had said it would. Hitler actually skimped on armaments, despite his boasting, partly because he wished to avoid the unpopularitiy which a reduction of the German standard of living would cause, but more from the confident belief that he would always succeed in bluff. Thus, paradoxidcally, while nearly eveeryone else in Europe expected a great war, Hitler was the one man who neither expected nor planned for it.”
I for one think our system of education is to blame. Dumb people from poor families will stay dumb and poor. And how can you feel superior when you are dumb and poor? Yes, you can't. Then you come across other dumb and poor people who make themselves superior, by degrading others. You join them, and suddenly you are not the bottom of society any more, but you are in a group, where your income, your look or your education doesn't matter. And your new friends blame THOSE other people are the reason for you being poor, having to live in small and dirty flats. They show hate and anger towards those other people and you start to feel the same hatred towards those other people.
And what's the essence of this? A system of education where poor/dumb people have no chance to ever rank up in society, so they build their own society, in which they are the kings.
On November 13 2012 01:36 WP_Insanity wrote: I think you can separate the followers of the NPD in roughly 3 groups: 1) Young Neo-Nazis who truly believe in the third reich in the the way it was under hitlers dictatorship because of bad education and the will to have a different and extreme opinion to separate from others.
2) People who dont like the situation who are sick of the "empty talk" of politicians think NPD can change something with their aggressive attitude. These People often dont really think about that it could end in another third reich thought.
3) Older people who have the "back then everything was better" mindset.
So how can this change? I think 3) will solved by time itself. Solving 2) should be the task of the big partys and/or the way the media presents stuff (media seems biased in politic stuff anyways, so why not in a good direction?). What about 1? Well to be honest i dont think you can completly rule out the problem but that should be fine.
What "Good old times" would older people remember? The 20s? The 30s? The 6 years of war, 10 years of rebuilding destroyed cities and 40 years of US and Soviet occupation?
Or are there like, 130 year olds I haven't heard of that still remember the days of Wilhelms.
Maybe they are old enough to remember the miraculous economic recovery that took place as a result of National Socialist policies, and the brief but booming and prosperous time before Britain and France declared war? You post so confidently about a subject where your knowledge seems to be severely lacking.
How Hitler Tackled Unemployment And Revived Germany’s Economy
[...]
As he had promised, Hitler and his National Socialist government banished unemployment within four years. The number of jobless was cut from six million at the beginning of 1933, when he took power, to one million by 1936. / 7 So rapidly was the jobless rate reduced that by 1937-38 there was a national labor shortage. / 8
For the great mass of Germans, wages and working conditions improved steadily. From 1932 to 1938 gross real weekly earnings increased by 21 percent. After taking into account tax and insurance deductions and adjustments to the cost of living, the increase in real weekly earnings during this period was 14 percent. At the same time, rents remained stable, and there was a relative decline in the costs of heating and light. Prices actually declined for some consumer goods, such as electrical appliances, clocks and watches, as well as for some foods. "Consumer prices rose at an average annual rate of just 1.2 percent between 1933 and 1939," notes British historian Niall Ferguson. "This meant that Germans workers were better off in real as well as nominal terms: between 1933 and 1938, weekly net earnings (after tax) rose by 22 percent, while the cost of living rose by just seven percent." Even after the outbreak of war in September 1939, workers’ income continued to rise. By 1943 average hourly earnings of German workers had risen by 25 percent, and weekly earnings by 41 percent. / 9
The “normal” work day for most Germans was eight hours, and pay for overtime work was generous. / 10 In addition to higher wages, benefits included markedly improved working conditions, such as better health and safety conditions, canteens with subsidized hot meals, athletic fields, parks, subsidized theater performances and concerts, exhibitions, sports and hiking groups, dances, adult education courses, and subsidized tourism. / 11 An already extensive network of social welfare programs, including old age insurance and a national health care program, was expanded.
Hitler wanted Germans to have “the highest possible standard of living,” he said in an interview with an American journalist in early 1934. “In my opinion, the Americans are right in not wanting to make everyone the same but rather in upholding the principle of the ladder. However, every single person must be granted the opportunity to climb up the ladder.” / 12 In keeping with this outlook, Hitler’s government promoted social mobility, with wide opportunities to improve and advance. As Prof. Garraty notes: “It is beyond argument that the Nazis encouraged working-class social and economic mobility.” To encourage acquisition of new skills, the government greatly expanded vocational training programs, and offered generous incentives for further advancement of efficient workers. / 13
Both National Socialist ideology and Hitler’s basic outlook, writes historian John Garraty, “inclined the regime to favor the ordinary German over any elite group. Workers … had an honored place in the system.” In accord with this, the regime provided substantive fringe benefits for workers that included subsidized housing, low-cost excursions, sports programs, and more pleasing factory facilities. / 14
In his detailed and critical biography of Hitler, historian Joachim Fest acknowledged: “The regime insisted that it was not the rule of one social class above all others, and by granting everyone opportunities to rise, it in fact demonstrated class neutrality … These measures did indeed break through the old, petrified social structures. They tangibly improved the material condition of much of the population.” / 15
A few figures give an idea of how the quality of life improved. Between 1932, the last year of the pre-Hitler era, and 1938, the last full year before the outbreak of war, food consumption increased by one sixth, while clothing and textile turnover increased by more than a quarter, and of furniture and household goods by 50 percent. / 16 During the Third Reich’s peacetime years, wine consumption rose by 50 percent, and champagne consumption increased five-fold. / 17 Between 1932 and 1938, the volume of tourism more than doubled, while automobile ownership during the 1930s tripled. / 18 German motor vehicle production, which included cars made by the US-owned Ford and General Motors (Opel) works, doubled in the five years of 1932 to 1937, while Germany’s motor vehicle exports increased eight-fold. Air passenger traffic in Germany more than tripled from 1933 to 1937. / 19
German business revived and prospered. During the first four years of the National Socialist era, net profits of large corporations quadrupled, and managerial and entrepreneurial income rose by nearly 50 percent. / 20 Between 1933 and 1938, notes historian Niall Ferguson, Germany's "gross domestic product grew, on average, by a remarkable eleven percent a year," with no significant increase in the rate of inflation. / 21 “Things were to get even better,” writes Jewish historian Richard Grunberger in his detailed study, The Twelve-Year Reich. “In the three years between 1939 and 1942 German industry expanded as much as it had during the preceding fifty years.” / 20
You seem to have a problem discerning a joke from an invitation to copy/paste a wall of text. Although you did make me smile even more.
Sorry, I didn't recognize it as a joke because there was no identifiable humor in it.
It appeared to be just wrong opinions made up based on limited understanding of history and an irrational hatred of Nazis.
Dude, take your churlish and know it all attitude somewhere else.
Don't be so defensive, buddy. Everyone makes mistakes.
You absurdly said "what good old times?" because apparently you knew nothing about the prosperity of Germany under National Socialism. So I pointed out that they enjoyed great economic prosperity. Now you know better.
I doubt anyone interpreted your post as a joke. It was not funny, just misinformed.
You absurdly said "what good old times?" because apparently you knew nothing about the prosperity of Germany under National Socialism. So I pointed out that they enjoyed great economic prosperity. Now you know better.
I doubt anyone interpreted your post as a joke. It was not funny, just misinformed.
Stop fucking kidding me please. Prosperity? Germany funded EVERYTHING on national debt. They payed with money they never had. It's like saying greece was rich before the financial crisis. Yeah sure.
As a historian and a german citizen I would like to point something out: The NPD is a democratic party and allowed in germany. It is also NOT a conservative party in any way. It is NOT related to the NSDAP (which is banned). On a federal/state level, the NPD does not hold any power and its voters and supporters are constantly threatened with bodily harm and loss of social perspective. Social gatherings of their organisations are regularly disrupted which is against the law that protects the right to demonstrate and the freedom of speech, however, facist behaviour by left partys and politicians is widely tolerated. If you have at some point been in a relationship with someone who, at some point, was a member of the NPD you can lose your job for no reason (except for "wrong friends") Since left partys are fed by the general fear of "nazis" the left media likes to overstate the threat. The german right is the weakest in Europe.
apart from the point of "we want to decrease the number of immigrants" the NPD has a stunningly similar party program to the radical german left (which commits more political crimes per year, is massively stronger and has public support even from non radicals). I think they both should be allowed but monitored closely. As every populist party, both are dangerous, but the NPD does not wield any power.
@Huyugu you seem to know what you are talking about. a fellow historian?
On November 13 2012 03:02 Fualtier wrote: The pre-punk - left wing extremist (bored and wanna change something) are more extrem than any nazigroup at the moment in Germany. Anarchyretards everywhere.
Considering the NSU with the Zschäpe/Bonhardt/Mundlos trio of serial murderers, I'd like to disagree with that statement (not saying there isn't a problem with left wing extremists).
I'm ashamed as well for the 9% number, not much you can do about that, but maybe improve the historical awareness in the lower tier schools (Real +Hauptschulen). Also, the best way to fight this is to fight the poverty in East Germany, having teenagers with no perspective is the breeding ground for extremism of any kind.
I think in Germany the whole WW2 education backfired a bit. I agree it has to be done and it's good that we get it in school a lot. But when I was growing up (mid 20s now), it felt like being German is actually a bad thing. You get constantly confronted with the horros and of the past and their guilt. My parents were not a particular help in that regard either as they were heavily influenced by the hippie movement. So, if you grow up in that environment every identification with your nation is basically taken from you (might seem a bit extreme, but with me that was the case) and if you want to be a non-conformist or a rebel in school, you look for things that are 'forbidden'.
The NPD is a joke. But they actually have a good strategy. They do offers for young people in areas where there is nothing else, do free jurisdictional advice for unemployed people, do community festivals - and the people buy it. It works.
All in all, I wouldn't call all followers of the NPD as Neo-Nazis.
And there are countries who have a much more severe problem with this, for example Russia (yes!):
On November 13 2012 01:36 WP_Insanity wrote: I think you can separate the followers of the NPD in roughly 3 groups: 1) Young Neo-Nazis who truly believe in the third reich in the the way it was under hitlers dictatorship because of bad education and the will to have a different and extreme opinion to separate from others.
2) People who dont like the situation who are sick of the "empty talk" of politicians think NPD can change something with their aggressive attitude. These People often dont really think about that it could end in another third reich thought.
3) Older people who have the "back then everything was better" mindset.
So how can this change? I think 3) will solved by time itself. Solving 2) should be the task of the big partys and/or the way the media presents stuff (media seems biased in politic stuff anyways, so why not in a good direction?). What about 1? Well to be honest i dont think you can completly rule out the problem but that should be fine.
What "Good old times" would older people remember? The 20s? The 30s? The 6 years of war, 10 years of rebuilding destroyed cities and 40 years of US and Soviet occupation?
Or are there like, 130 year olds I haven't heard of that still remember the days of Wilhelms.
Maybe they are old enough to remember the miraculous economic recovery that took place as a result of National Socialist policies, and the brief but booming and prosperous time before Britain and France declared war? You post so confidently about a subject where your knowledge seems to be severely lacking.
How Hitler Tackled Unemployment And Revived Germany’s Economy
[...]
As he had promised, Hitler and his National Socialist government banished unemployment within four years. The number of jobless was cut from six million at the beginning of 1933, when he took power, to one million by 1936. / 7 So rapidly was the jobless rate reduced that by 1937-38 there was a national labor shortage. / 8
For the great mass of Germans, wages and working conditions improved steadily. From 1932 to 1938 gross real weekly earnings increased by 21 percent. After taking into account tax and insurance deductions and adjustments to the cost of living, the increase in real weekly earnings during this period was 14 percent. At the same time, rents remained stable, and there was a relative decline in the costs of heating and light. Prices actually declined for some consumer goods, such as electrical appliances, clocks and watches, as well as for some foods. "Consumer prices rose at an average annual rate of just 1.2 percent between 1933 and 1939," notes British historian Niall Ferguson. "This meant that Germans workers were better off in real as well as nominal terms: between 1933 and 1938, weekly net earnings (after tax) rose by 22 percent, while the cost of living rose by just seven percent." Even after the outbreak of war in September 1939, workers’ income continued to rise. By 1943 average hourly earnings of German workers had risen by 25 percent, and weekly earnings by 41 percent. / 9
The “normal” work day for most Germans was eight hours, and pay for overtime work was generous. / 10 In addition to higher wages, benefits included markedly improved working conditions, such as better health and safety conditions, canteens with subsidized hot meals, athletic fields, parks, subsidized theater performances and concerts, exhibitions, sports and hiking groups, dances, adult education courses, and subsidized tourism. / 11 An already extensive network of social welfare programs, including old age insurance and a national health care program, was expanded.
Hitler wanted Germans to have “the highest possible standard of living,” he said in an interview with an American journalist in early 1934. “In my opinion, the Americans are right in not wanting to make everyone the same but rather in upholding the principle of the ladder. However, every single person must be granted the opportunity to climb up the ladder.” / 12 In keeping with this outlook, Hitler’s government promoted social mobility, with wide opportunities to improve and advance. As Prof. Garraty notes: “It is beyond argument that the Nazis encouraged working-class social and economic mobility.” To encourage acquisition of new skills, the government greatly expanded vocational training programs, and offered generous incentives for further advancement of efficient workers. / 13
Both National Socialist ideology and Hitler’s basic outlook, writes historian John Garraty, “inclined the regime to favor the ordinary German over any elite group. Workers … had an honored place in the system.” In accord with this, the regime provided substantive fringe benefits for workers that included subsidized housing, low-cost excursions, sports programs, and more pleasing factory facilities. / 14
In his detailed and critical biography of Hitler, historian Joachim Fest acknowledged: “The regime insisted that it was not the rule of one social class above all others, and by granting everyone opportunities to rise, it in fact demonstrated class neutrality … These measures did indeed break through the old, petrified social structures. They tangibly improved the material condition of much of the population.” / 15
A few figures give an idea of how the quality of life improved. Between 1932, the last year of the pre-Hitler era, and 1938, the last full year before the outbreak of war, food consumption increased by one sixth, while clothing and textile turnover increased by more than a quarter, and of furniture and household goods by 50 percent. / 16 During the Third Reich’s peacetime years, wine consumption rose by 50 percent, and champagne consumption increased five-fold. / 17 Between 1932 and 1938, the volume of tourism more than doubled, while automobile ownership during the 1930s tripled. / 18 German motor vehicle production, which included cars made by the US-owned Ford and General Motors (Opel) works, doubled in the five years of 1932 to 1937, while Germany’s motor vehicle exports increased eight-fold. Air passenger traffic in Germany more than tripled from 1933 to 1937. / 19
German business revived and prospered. During the first four years of the National Socialist era, net profits of large corporations quadrupled, and managerial and entrepreneurial income rose by nearly 50 percent. / 20 Between 1933 and 1938, notes historian Niall Ferguson, Germany's "gross domestic product grew, on average, by a remarkable eleven percent a year," with no significant increase in the rate of inflation. / 21 “Things were to get even better,” writes Jewish historian Richard Grunberger in his detailed study, The Twelve-Year Reich. “In the three years between 1939 and 1942 German industry expanded as much as it had during the preceding fifty years.” / 20
You seem to have a problem discerning a joke from an invitation to copy/paste a wall of text. Although you did make me smile even more.
Sorry, I didn't recognize it as a joke because there was no identifiable humor in it.
It appeared to be just wrong opinions made up based on limited understanding of history and an irrational hatred of Nazis.
Dude, take your churlish and know it all attitude somewhere else.
Don't be so defensive, buddy. Everyone makes mistakes.
You absurdly said "what good old times?" because apparently you knew nothing about the prosperity of Germany under National Socialism. So I pointed out that they enjoyed great economic prosperity. Now you know better.
I doubt anyone interpreted your post as a joke. It was not funny, just misinformed.
haha, you have no idea how funny this conversation is.
EPT
