EPTNazi-Uprising in Present Day Germany - Page 7
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
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esperanto
Germany357 Posts
On November 13 2012 02:04 Huyugu wrote: That's not true. Why would you make such a claim? Laws against holocaust denial ban... holocaust denial. People get punished under those laws for research or opinions which are contrary to officially sanctioned holocaust dogma. For example Germar Rudolf served 3 years in prison for publishing a scientific paper on the gas chambers of Auschwitz. There is nothing political or anti-Democratic about it. It's just a scientific paper. You should read it yourself to understand what exactly is being criminalized in your country. Unless of course it is illegal for you to read it? Then I wonder: how can you know it is okay to imprison people for years on thought crime charges if you don't understand what thoughts are criminalized? The Rudolf Report: Expert Report on Chemical and Technical Aspects of the ‘Gas Chambers’ of Auschwitz http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/ Three years in prison. For writing a scientific paper. The report you bring up here is proven to be full of fake evidence. Most people even doubt that the samples he used in his report were real. And he not only published 1 book, he published 8 books talking about the "auschwitz lies" He also hosted nazi-website in the USA. And it wasnt 3 years in prison and it wasnt only for writing a "scientific paper". You sir just defended a hatefull nazi who actually never was interessted in scientific work. This is the best example why holocaust denial should stay forbidden in germany. Everyone who does it, simply does it to spread hate. And this is the prime example for "Volksverhetzung", spreading lies and hate that lead to racist violent attacks. | ||
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Asymmetric
Scotland1309 Posts
On November 13 2012 00:31 Raggamuffinoo wrote: National Socialist German Workers' Party. Socialism is still prevelant throughout the world. It is no surprise that it is in Germany or Greece or America or anywhere. Next time socialism trys its hand at world domination, it will not be by force, but by coercion and subversion. The more citizens rely on social funding etc, the more power the local government has over the individual. A solution to this would be for every individual to decline such handouts whenever possible and be responsible in commerce and contracts, knowing their rights and responsibilities and fighting tooth and nail whenever social programs are introduced to replace existing models. Edit: People seem to think Nazi means "far right", I argue that the opposite is true. Their objectives require government to be a surrogate parent to citizens. I've always found this, usually libertarian view point, that Nazi's were left winger's eccentric and baseless to conform to there own world view. That being that any government that puts constraints on individual freedom is branded left-wing (unless its enforcing property rights!) The basic raison d'etre of socialism/the left is egalitarianism. By what means this is achieved, be it stateless social anarchism, communist totalitarianism or democratic social democracy, the goal is basically always to decrease the inequality gap between divisions in society and alleviate the worst off in society. At least in theory. Nazi's are literally the polar opposite of egalitarian values. There fundamental end goal was to impose strict differences on race, gender, nationality, religion and promote corporate monopoly's on wealth. Most of there flagship policy's on immigration, nationalism, commerce and culture are traditional conservative policy's taken to there ultimate extremes. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On November 13 2012 02:11 Huyugu wrote: Maybe they are old enough to remember the miraculous economic recovery that took place as a result of National Socialist policies, and the brief but booming and prosperous time before Britain and France declared war? You post so confidently about a subject where your knowledge seems to be severely lacking. + Show Spoiler + How Hitler Tackled Unemployment And Revived Germany’s Economy [...] As he had promised, Hitler and his National Socialist government banished unemployment within four years. The number of jobless was cut from six million at the beginning of 1933, when he took power, to one million by 1936. / 7 So rapidly was the jobless rate reduced that by 1937-38 there was a national labor shortage. / 8 For the great mass of Germans, wages and working conditions improved steadily. From 1932 to 1938 gross real weekly earnings increased by 21 percent. After taking into account tax and insurance deductions and adjustments to the cost of living, the increase in real weekly earnings during this period was 14 percent. At the same time, rents remained stable, and there was a relative decline in the costs of heating and light. Prices actually declined for some consumer goods, such as electrical appliances, clocks and watches, as well as for some foods. "Consumer prices rose at an average annual rate of just 1.2 percent between 1933 and 1939," notes British historian Niall Ferguson. "This meant that Germans workers were better off in real as well as nominal terms: between 1933 and 1938, weekly net earnings (after tax) rose by 22 percent, while the cost of living rose by just seven percent." Even after the outbreak of war in September 1939, workers’ income continued to rise. By 1943 average hourly earnings of German workers had risen by 25 percent, and weekly earnings by 41 percent. / 9 The “normal” work day for most Germans was eight hours, and pay for overtime work was generous. / 10 In addition to higher wages, benefits included markedly improved working conditions, such as better health and safety conditions, canteens with subsidized hot meals, athletic fields, parks, subsidized theater performances and concerts, exhibitions, sports and hiking groups, dances, adult education courses, and subsidized tourism. / 11 An already extensive network of social welfare programs, including old age insurance and a national health care program, was expanded. Hitler wanted Germans to have “the highest possible standard of living,” he said in an interview with an American journalist in early 1934. “In my opinion, the Americans are right in not wanting to make everyone the same but rather in upholding the principle of the ladder. However, every single person must be granted the opportunity to climb up the ladder.” / 12 In keeping with this outlook, Hitler’s government promoted social mobility, with wide opportunities to improve and advance. As Prof. Garraty notes: “It is beyond argument that the Nazis encouraged working-class social and economic mobility.” To encourage acquisition of new skills, the government greatly expanded vocational training programs, and offered generous incentives for further advancement of efficient workers. / 13 Both National Socialist ideology and Hitler’s basic outlook, writes historian John Garraty, “inclined the regime to favor the ordinary German over any elite group. Workers … had an honored place in the system.” In accord with this, the regime provided substantive fringe benefits for workers that included subsidized housing, low-cost excursions, sports programs, and more pleasing factory facilities. / 14 In his detailed and critical biography of Hitler, historian Joachim Fest acknowledged: “The regime insisted that it was not the rule of one social class above all others, and by granting everyone opportunities to rise, it in fact demonstrated class neutrality … These measures did indeed break through the old, petrified social structures. They tangibly improved the material condition of much of the population.” / 15 A few figures give an idea of how the quality of life improved. Between 1932, the last year of the pre-Hitler era, and 1938, the last full year before the outbreak of war, food consumption increased by one sixth, while clothing and textile turnover increased by more than a quarter, and of furniture and household goods by 50 percent. / 16 During the Third Reich’s peacetime years, wine consumption rose by 50 percent, and champagne consumption increased five-fold. / 17 Between 1932 and 1938, the volume of tourism more than doubled, while automobile ownership during the 1930s tripled. / 18 German motor vehicle production, which included cars made by the US-owned Ford and General Motors (Opel) works, doubled in the five years of 1932 to 1937, while Germany’s motor vehicle exports increased eight-fold. Air passenger traffic in Germany more than tripled from 1933 to 1937. / 19 German business revived and prospered. During the first four years of the National Socialist era, net profits of large corporations quadrupled, and managerial and entrepreneurial income rose by nearly 50 percent. / 20 Between 1933 and 1938, notes historian Niall Ferguson, Germany's "gross domestic product grew, on average, by a remarkable eleven percent a year," with no significant increase in the rate of inflation. / 21 “Things were to get even better,” writes Jewish historian Richard Grunberger in his detailed study, The Twelve-Year Reich. “In the three years between 1939 and 1942 German industry expanded as much as it had during the preceding fifty years.” / 20 [...] http://www.ihr.org/other/economyhitler2011.html You seem to have a problem discerning a joke from an invitation to copy/paste a wall of text. Although you did make me smile even more. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 13 2012 02:00 Klive5ive wrote: It's just sensationalist crap journalism in my opinion. I'm fed up of the terms right and left wing: they are meaningless and out of date. From the article: "The Immortals, for example - anti-globalisation, anti-capitalist and anti-democratic" - that could just as easily describe a bunch of hippies! They then compare that (by proxy) with a crazy terrorist cell. I hate articles like that; it's just so dumb. Yes, this. The terms are borderline meaningless. People usually just use the terms to paint people as "bad guys." I'm sure a large number of these so-called neonazis are just people who really get off on people thinking they are disgusting, who get off on being different and edgy and dangerous to the public. All the state indoctrination in the world won't change that, in fact it might even make it worse. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
You know where I got this? This awesome statistic is called "Bundestagswahlen 2009". If you want a more updated one, there is one in production, it will be out in 2013 with the title "Bundestagswahlen 2013". And you could call those statistics pretty unbiased. | ||
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Huyugu
23 Posts
On November 13 2012 02:17 Alpino wrote: Nazi(fascism is general..) ideology believes that force is the way to go. I think that's shitty and make the world a shitty place to live, you can't have freedom if you're afraid people are gonna kill you because of the way you look. Aren't the ones banning political parties and criminalizing skepticism of the holocaust the people who believe in force? | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
They are as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic. - Also, one cannot seperate the crimes of the Nazi regime from its economical achievements. The economic strides that Nazi Germany were the result of its military build-up. The entire foundation would have fallen out from under it, had they not gone to war. The only way to make military keynesianism viable is through going to war before the bill is presented. The murder of millions is the direct result of the economic policies of Nazi-Germany. Had they not gone to war, their economy could not have sustained itself. Everyone in Europe was sacrificed upon the altar of German recovery. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On November 13 2012 02:36 Huyugu wrote: Aren't the ones banning political parties and criminalizing skepticism of the holocaust the people who believe in force? Here in Germany it is not a "forceful" act. It takes several years and couple of instance to go trough. It is an act of justice, if legal reasons can be found justice will be spoken according to the written law which everyone agreed to. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On November 13 2012 02:40 Dagobert wrote: Give people a decent education as well as a job (or for kids: a safe place to grow up and play) and extremism will not be an issue. a safe place to grow up so no muslim immigrants in the neighbourhood? That would confirm my personal experience. The far left are mostly from well off suburbs while the the "right" are the people living with the immigrants. | ||
WP_Insanity
Germany33 Posts
On November 13 2012 01:46 Probe1 wrote: What "Good old times" would older people remember? The 20s? The 30s? The 6 years of war, 10 years of rebuilding destroyed cities and 40 years of US and Soviet occupation? Or are there like, 130 year olds I haven't heard of that still remember the days of Wilhelms. By back then i mean the time of third reich. Actually there are quite some old people who think something like "atleast we would have changed something back then". And some still have the mindset that everything was fine back then. I know this may be hard to believe for non-Germans, but i´ve met quite some people like this. Pretty scary. | ||
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
On November 13 2012 00:41 kafkaesque wrote: "Fuck, I can't afford the new iPhone, let's gas some gypsies!" hitlarious | ||
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Gofarman
Canada645 Posts
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Huyugu
23 Posts
On November 13 2012 02:33 esperanto wrote: The report you bring up here is proven to be full of fake evidence. Can you give me even a single example of "fake evidence" in The Rudolf Report? I would have expected Richard Green's reply to mention such a thing. On November 13 2012 02:33 esperanto wrote: Most people even doubt that the samples he used in his report were real. Really? But there are pictures of him collecting his samples. And the samples he took all correlate well with the three other independent chemical tests. http://imgur.com/Ytj99 On November 13 2012 02:33 esperanto wrote: And he not only published 1 book, he published 8 books talking about the "auschwitz lies" Would it have been less illegal for him to only publish one book of criminalized views? On November 13 2012 02:33 esperanto wrote: He also hosted nazi-website in the USA. That's a lie. On November 13 2012 02:33 esperanto wrote: And it wasnt 3 years in prison and it wasnt only for writing a "scientific paper". He served 2.5 years On November 13 2012 02:33 esperanto wrote: You sir just defended a hatefull nazi who actually never was interessted in scientific work. There's nothing even remotely hateful and any of Germar Rudolf's writings. He is not a Nazi. And his interest seems to be purely in honesty and scientific integrity. Try actually reading his paper instead of going off the deep end and abusing the ad hominem fallacy. Actually I don't see any arguments from you at all. It's just ad hominem attacks that aren't even true. On November 13 2012 02:33 esperanto wrote: This is the best example why holocaust denial should stay forbidden in germany. Everyone who does it, simply does it to spread hate. And this is the prime example for "Volksverhetzung", spreading lies and hate that lead to racist violent attacks. Aren't you the one spreading hate against people with different opinions? After all you are the one trying to characterize Germar as a "Nazi", knowing that Nazis are generally hated and people think it is okay to deny alleged "Nazis" human rights like free speech. I really wish you would read the information you agree with criminalizing. Sadly people who advocate speech crime laws are often very ignorant and unwilling to even listen to other views (surprise, that's why they want to ban other views). The Rudolf Report: Expert Report on Chemical and Technical Aspects of the ‘Gas Chambers’ of Auschwitz (Rudolf) http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/ Leuchter, Rudolf and the Iron Blues (Green) http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/ Some considerations about the ›Gas Chambers‹ of Auschwitz and Birkenau (Rudolf) http://vho.org/GB/c/GR/Green.html Chemistry is Not the Science (Green) http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/ Character assassins (Rudolf) http://vho.org/GB/c/GR/CharacterAssassins.html Postscript to Chemistry is not the Science: Rudolf's Character Suicide (Green) http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/postscript.shtml Dr. Richard Green's Evasions (Rudolf) User was banned for this post. | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On November 13 2012 00:50 EtherealBlade wrote: I find it amazing how this foundation managed find about 7 million Neo Nazis in the very center of Europe (according to the 9% figure) that no one noticed earlier. I don't think this is much news to be honest, just the usual scaremongering - even if this was real, the (main) problem would not only be the Neonazi kids, but the issues that are being swept under the rug by the EU and Western governments. But what can we expect when the mainstream can be allowed to praise the Weimar Republic as some kind of golden era? Germany, like many other countries had a rough 19th and 20th century, and got a lot to reflect on, but it's been overdone for a long time now and turned into some sick brainwashing. It's inevitable that sooner or later educated people will demand an end to it, but the hypocrites will scream Nazi until the end. This basically closed the thread. Of course the OP, while answering many other posts, ignored this one. Just some points. So the studies sees 9% of the population as extreme rightwing, yet only 3% trivialize nazi rule and 3,5% would prefer a rightwing dictatory state. Pretty big discrepancy. Germans with foreign roots and foreigners score higher in these departments btw, just to put things in perspective. Of course the threadstarter doesn't mention this, as it won't fit his agenda. Chauvinism gets used as a rightwing indicator, this makes me scratch my head in disbelief. 4% show signs of social darwinistic thinking. Classical sight of extreme right AND extreme left wing thinking (class struggle anyone?). Again large discrepancy to the number of so called extreme right wing guys. True is there is a rising anti foreigner thinking in Germany today. As usual the reasons for that are complex. Some are the baddening economic situation of some people. Run down neighbourhoods with rising crime in big cities with largely immigrant population. Overrepresentation of foreign people in violent crime and the governments refusal to try to solve this issue. Lack of education. Lack of integration programs, lack of willingness of integration and a thousand others. As I said the problems are complex. Threadstarter should be a bit ashamed of himself for fearmongering Fox news style. The study is laughable and paid for by the center-left party in Germany. Friedrich-Ebert Stiftung gets largely sponsored by the state. Basically every party has its own Stiftung in Germany. This is not neutral science. I vote center- left btw. But to claim that we have nearly 10% neonazis running around is downright bullshit and fearmongering of the highest order. Can you explain to me why rightwing parties generally run around ~3% in federal elections? | ||
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HiOT
Sweden1000 Posts
On November 13 2012 00:36 BluePanther wrote: For all the comments about how America is too far right politically, Europe always has this problem and we never really do. lolwut. I constantly see on Comedy Central of how racist African-Americana is about everybody. Even themselves. Just so they can keep doing it. Oneliners. That's the stuff. | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On November 13 2012 02:35 bluQ wrote: I know a pretty accurate statistic that says: 2% of the german population is far-right winged, voting for extreme parties. You know where I got this? This awesome statistic is called "Bundestagswahlen 2009". If you want a more updated one, there is one in production, it will be out in 2013 with the title "Bundestagswahlen 2013". And you could call those statistics pretty unbiased. While this is certainly correct (actually only 2% of the voting German pop, but well, whatever^^), there's the problem that other parties have a high amount of antisemitism and are anti-foreigner as well. + Show Spoiler [Image] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MLnw7.jpg) As you can see nearly 50% of CDU/CSU/SPD voters (in Eastern Germany) are anti foreigner. And about ~10% of all parties (some more some less) have at least antisemitic tendencies. Funny that non of the 4 NPD guys is it though. This is actually correlating with the age distribution (old people more anti foreigner) and CDU/SPD voters are older. | ||
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