On November 13 2012 03:13 The KY wrote: Yes, Hitler's economic policies were revolutionary. I particularly liked when he seized all the property from jewish people and other minorities, didn't allow women to work (and did not count them or the jews as unemployed), and built an economy largely around militarisation and also coincidentally an enormous deficit.
history is not about morals. it's about success. And there is no denying that the German Empire between 1933 and 1942 was incredibly successful. Does not mean we should repeat their strategy because TODAY our morality counts, some things are just not acceptable anymore.
I don't see how you can call that success? You have to see the whole story man and it was not like they made some bad decisions in 1942 and that led to their downfall but everyhting untl then was clean and shiny. Where they were in 1945 is a direct consequence of the years before (sure, many thing worsened due to bad leadership but I dare to say being at war with the Soviets, the UK, USA and basically everyone else in the world barring Japan and Italy is not a story of success...
Power always is success. If the war would have turned out the other way (people generally have no idea how close that was on both fronts) Germany would probably have covered most of Eurasia and northern Africa. Even if I would not want to live in that world, I would call that success.
On November 13 2012 03:27 sephiria wrote: As a historian and a german citizen I would like to point something out: The NPD is a democratic party and allowed in germany. It is also NOT a conservative party in any way. It is NOT related to the NSDAP (which is banned). On a federal/state level, the NPD does not hold any power and its voters and supporters are constantly threatened with bodily harm and loss of social perspective. Social gatherings of their organisations are regularly disrupted which is against the law that protects the right to demonstrate and the freedom of speech, however, facist behaviour by left partys and politicians is widely tolerated. If you have at some point been in a relationship with someone who, at some point, was a member of the NPD you can lose your job for no reason (except for "wrong friends") Since left partys are fed by the general fear of "nazis" the left media likes to overstate the threat. The german right is the weakest in Europe.
apart from the point of "we want to decrease the number of immigrants" the NPD has a stunningly similar party program to the radical german left (which commits more political crimes per year, is massively stronger and has public support even from non radicals). I think they both should be allowed but monitored closely. As every populist party, both are dangerous, but the NPD does not wield any power.
@Huyugu you seem to know what you are talking about. a fellow historian?
saying the NPD the democratic is plain wrong.... they are permitted but just look at their election posters and tell me again that they arent racist The NPD is controlled by the "BND" & "BKA" all the time for good reasons.... And the NPD is conservative party because otherwise many voters wouldn´t rotate between NPD and CDU Even many politician at the NPD were CDU politicians before!
But still the left wing member are numerous and currently violent aswell
racism and democracy are unrelated (US like 80 years ago? canada in the early '40s? no democracys?)
and no, I am conservative. I know the difference. People just start to vote NPD because there is no conservative party in germany (and dont say cdu). So they vote what 'feels' right-wing. Most probably haven't even read the NPD party program.
Just look at the paragraphs of the "Grundgesetze" I think there are parts which tell us that racism and democracy may not be combined in Germay
On November 13 2012 03:27 sephiria wrote: As a historian and a german citizen I would like to point something out: The NPD is a democratic party and allowed in germany. It is also NOT a conservative party in any way. It is NOT related to the NSDAP (which is banned). On a federal/state level, the NPD does not hold any power and its voters and supporters are constantly threatened with bodily harm and loss of social perspective. Social gatherings of their organisations are regularly disrupted which is against the law that protects the right to demonstrate and the freedom of speech, however, facist behaviour by left partys and politicians is widely tolerated. If you have at some point been in a relationship with someone who, at some point, was a member of the NPD you can lose your job for no reason (except for "wrong friends") Since left partys are fed by the general fear of "nazis" the left media likes to overstate the threat. The german right is the weakest in Europe.
apart from the point of "we want to decrease the number of immigrants" the NPD has a stunningly similar party program to the radical german left (which commits more political crimes per year, is massively stronger and has public support even from non radicals). I think they both should be allowed but monitored closely. As every populist party, both are dangerous, but the NPD does not wield any power.
@Huyugu you seem to know what you are talking about. a fellow historian?
saying the NPD the democratic is plain wrong.... they are permitted but just look at their election posters and tell me again that they arent racist The NPD is controlled by the "BND" & "BKA" all the time for good reasons.... And the NPD is conservative party because otherwise many voters wouldn´t rotate between NPD and CDU Even many politician at the NPD were CDU politicians before!
But still the left wing member are numerous and currently violent aswell
racism and democracy are unrelated (US like 80 years ago? canada in the early '40s? no democracys?)
and no, I am conservative. I know the difference. People just start to vote NPD because there is no conservative party in germany (and dont say cdu). So they vote what 'feels' right-wing. Most probably haven't even read the NPD party program.
Just look at the paragraphs of the "Grundgesetze" I think there are parts which tell us that racism and democracy may not be combined in Germay
I know the Grundgesetz. but just because the law forbids the combination does not mean you can not combine them. public displays of racism is unlawful in germany, doesn't mean you can't be a racist (which is, btw an opinion, and like one says "thoughts are free" and not a crime as long as you dont act on it.)
a left wing company, calling themselves "foundation", but getting 150mio € every year from the taxpayer, try to make themselves look important and get even more money from the taxpayer.
god, i wait for the day when people like that say:"ok, work is done, lets go home and do something other." instead they lift every stone and turn every stick to find the last nazi and to squeeze the last euro out of people who react to their scheme.
i live in the city, in the rhein-main-area with 5.5 mio people for 20 years now, and i never saw or spoke to a nazi. and when 9% of the people are nazis, i couldn't care less, as long as they vote democratic.
to the op: sorry, you have been tricked. the "friedrich ebert foundation" today released a book "Die Mitte im Umbruch" that tries to show that there are many, many nazis in germany. do you really expect a study from this organisation that shows, that there is _no_ nazi problem in germany? and your article and the book release today is too much of a coincidence for me to not notice. viral marketing for beginners?
On November 13 2012 03:27 sephiria wrote: As a historian and a german citizen I would like to point something out: The NPD is a democratic party and allowed in germany. It is also NOT a conservative party in any way. It is NOT related to the NSDAP (which is banned). On a federal/state level, the NPD does not hold any power and its voters and supporters are constantly threatened with bodily harm and loss of social perspective. Social gatherings of their organisations are regularly disrupted which is against the law that protects the right to demonstrate and the freedom of speech, however, facist behaviour by left partys and politicians is widely tolerated. If you have at some point been in a relationship with someone who, at some point, was a member of the NPD you can lose your job for no reason (except for "wrong friends") Since left partys are fed by the general fear of "nazis" the left media likes to overstate the threat. The german right is the weakest in Europe.
apart from the point of "we want to decrease the number of immigrants" the NPD has a stunningly similar party program to the radical german left (which commits more political crimes per year, is massively stronger and has public support even from non radicals). I think they both should be allowed but monitored closely. As every populist party, both are dangerous, but the NPD does not wield any power.
@Huyugu you seem to know what you are talking about. a fellow historian?
saying the NPD the democratic is plain wrong.... they are permitted but just look at their election posters and tell me again that they arent racist The NPD is controlled by the "BND" & "BKA" all the time for good reasons.... And the NPD is conservative party because otherwise many voters wouldn´t rotate between NPD and CDU Even many politician at the NPD were CDU politicians before!
But still the left wing member are numerous and currently violent aswell
racism and democracy are unrelated (US like 80 years ago? canada in the early '40s? no democracys?)
and no, I am conservative. I know the difference. People just start to vote NPD because there is no conservative party in germany (and dont say cdu). So they vote what 'feels' right-wing. Most probably haven't even read the NPD party program.
Just look at the paragraphs of the "Grundgesetze" I think there are parts which tell us that racism and democracy may not be combined in Germay
I know the Grundgesetz. but just because the law forbids the combination does not mean you can not combine them. public displays of racism is unlawful in germany, doesn't mean you can't be a racist (which is, btw an opinion, and like one says "thoughts are free" and not a crime as long as you dont act on it.)
yeah, but only your thoughts there cant be a racist party involved in politics and that´s the point
I'm extremely fascinated by the fact that neonazi groups in eastern Europe and Russia greet with the Nazi salute (Roman/Bellamy salute whatever) even though Hitler rated Slavic peoples as untermensch.
On November 13 2012 00:32 Xpace wrote: This is indeed scary, but hardly surprising. Every country has their share of these idiots.
If you grow up in Germany, you will be thoroughly educated about the Nazi Party. The history of the Third Reich is mandatory part of your historical education and secondary schools frequently have week-long projects to further awareness of the horrors of Hitler's Germany. Chances are, you will at one point visit one of the concentration camps of Buchenwald or Auschwitz and schools go through great lenghts to get jewish orators who have witnessed Nazi Germany first hand. History programs on TV eat up that chapter as well and the Federal Agency for Civic Education offers a plethora of different magazines for free so one can educate oneself even further.
Amazing if true. I look at countries like Japan who are being hated on by their neighbors because they are not educating the general population about WW2 and the atrocities of the Empire of the Rising Sun, and would rather focus on how they are the only victims (Hiroshima/Nagasaki). That's equally as sickening as this. Germans are actually educated about the Nazis!
Well I think people of Japan are educated enough to know what kind of war crimes happened without needed to push to the edge. War is always dirty and WW2 was long war.
As my great-grandfather was a member of Chinese army (if you could call it that) against Japanese in WW2, I am clearly biased. But first of all, this topic is a whole different cat than the one outlined in OP. Second, the "war is always dirty" could hardly be an excuse to gloss over atrocities that some Japanese created during that time. Contrast Japanese treatment of POW and treatment of Japanese POW should be enough to shatter the "war is dirty" rhetoric. That's without mentioning the massacres or gruesome human experiments they carried out.
Enough on that already. It is hardly a surprise for anyone that in this time of economic depression, xenophobia in its extreme form would rise their head again. To be fair, Germany had not always been the friendliest place for immigrant to begin with. In my opinion, the pragmatic approach is to prevent violent extremists from getting anything. As of right now, they aren't, so I am not very alarmed about the current situation.
OP should really update the topic with more infos, people who dont go through all the pages and just read the first post will get quite the wrong idea....
On November 13 2012 03:13 The KY wrote: Yes, Hitler's economic policies were revolutionary. I particularly liked when he seized all the property from jewish people and other minorities, didn't allow women to work (and did not count them or the jews as unemployed), and built an economy largely around militarisation and also coincidentally an enormous deficit.
history is not about morals. it's about success. And there is no denying that the German Empire between 1933 and 1942 was incredibly successful. Does not mean we should repeat their strategy because TODAY our morality counts, some things are just not acceptable anymore.
I don't believe in total moral relativism though, so success built on the back of classing a section of your citizens as sub human is not success in my eyes. And as another poster said, the downfall of the German Empire was a result of the actions before it. It's not like everything went swimmingly until one bad decision happened; WW2 and it's consequences for Germany were the inevitable result of the policies, economic and otherwise, of Hitler and the Nazis.
On November 13 2012 04:08 cari-kira wrote: omg please..
a left wing company, calling themselves "foundation", but getting 150mio € every year from the taxpayer, try to make themselves look important and get even more money from the taxpayer.
god, i wait for the day when people like that say:"ok, work is done, lets go home and do something other." instead they lift every stone and turn every stick to find the last nazi and to squeeze the last euro out of people who react to their scheme.
i live in the city, in the rhein-main-area with 5.5 mio people for 20 years now, and i never saw or spoke to a nazi. and when 9% of the people are nazis, i couldn't care less, as long as they vote democratic.
to the op: sorry, you have been tricked. the "friedrich ebert foundation" today released a book "Die Mitte im Umbruch" that tries to show that there are many, many nazis in germany. do you really expect a study from this organisation that shows, that there is _no_ nazi problem in germany? and your article and the book release today is too much of a coincidence for me to not notice. viral marketing for beginners?
thanks for the post. This thread actually reassured me that there are still a lot of people around who actually do their own thinking and are not sucked in by the "nazis everywhere" industry.
On November 13 2012 04:08 cari-kira wrote: omg please..
a left wing company, calling themselves "foundation", but getting 150mio € every year from the taxpayer, try to make themselves look important and get even more money from the taxpayer.
god, i wait for the day when people like that say:"ok, work is done, lets go home and do something other." instead they lift every stone and turn every stick to find the last nazi and to squeeze the last euro out of people who react to their scheme.
i live in the city, in the rhein-main-area with 5.5 mio people for 20 years now, and i never saw or spoke to a nazi. and when 9% of the people are nazis, i couldn't care less, as long as they vote democratic.
to the op: sorry, you have been tricked. the "friedrich ebert foundation" today released a book "Die Mitte im Umbruch" that tries to show that there are many, many nazis in germany. do you really expect a study from this organisation that shows, that there is _no_ nazi problem in germany? and your article and the book release today is too much of a coincidence for me to not notice. viral marketing for beginners?
The Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung is the SPD-near foundation for political education. There is one such foundation for every party in the parliament. They receive federal support due to law and are a part of our party system, they are not companies as you falsely claim. You of course have to be aware that they are not politically neutral and in fact some of the questions of their study are suggestive (especially the ones regarding immigrants are citicized), and their conclusion is a bit alarmistic to create attention, but the core conclusion that Nazi ideology is on the rise still stands and is something that we as a society should be aware of.
On November 13 2012 03:27 sephiria wrote: As a historian and a german citizen I would like to point something out: The NPD is a democratic party and allowed in germany. It is also NOT a conservative party in any way. It is NOT related to the NSDAP (which is banned). On a federal/state level, the NPD does not hold any power and its voters and supporters are constantly threatened with bodily harm and loss of social perspective. Social gatherings of their organisations are regularly disrupted which is against the law that protects the right to demonstrate and the freedom of speech, however, facist behaviour by left partys and politicians is widely tolerated. If you have at some point been in a relationship with someone who, at some point, was a member of the NPD you can lose your job for no reason (except for "wrong friends") Since left partys are fed by the general fear of "nazis" the left media likes to overstate the threat. The german right is the weakest in Europe.
apart from the point of "we want to decrease the number of immigrants" the NPD has a stunningly similar party program to the radical german left (which commits more political crimes per year, is massively stronger and has public support even from non radicals). I think they both should be allowed but monitored closely. As every populist party, both are dangerous, but the NPD does not wield any power.
@Huyugu you seem to know what you are talking about. a fellow historian?
saying the NPD the democratic is plain wrong.... they are permitted but just look at their election posters and tell me again that they arent racist The NPD is controlled by the "BND" & "BKA" all the time for good reasons.... And the NPD is conservative party because otherwise many voters wouldn´t rotate between NPD and CDU Even many politician at the NPD were CDU politicians before!
But still the left wing member are numerous and currently violent aswell
racism and democracy are unrelated (US like 80 years ago? canada in the early '40s? no democracys?)
and no, I am conservative. I know the difference. People just start to vote NPD because there is no conservative party in germany (and dont say cdu). So they vote what 'feels' right-wing. Most probably haven't even read the NPD party program.
Just look at the paragraphs of the "Grundgesetze" I think there are parts which tell us that racism and democracy may not be combined in Germay
I know the Grundgesetz. but just because the law forbids the combination does not mean you can not combine them. public displays of racism is unlawful in germany, doesn't mean you can't be a racist (which is, btw an opinion, and like one says "thoughts are free" and not a crime as long as you dont act on it.)
yeah, but only your thoughts there cant be a racist party involved in politics and that´s the point
as far as I know it would be classified as volksverhetzung which would lead to a ban of the NPD. That didn't happen. Authorities have not (yet) classified NPD as racist under the law, which means they are allowed to operate which means they are classified as fullfilling the necessary democratic standards. So they are (for now) an acceptable democratic party?
For crying out loud the only useful thing I got out of this thread was that apparently I have not read such threads in ages as the last time I saw zalz he was a tank.
On November 13 2012 04:13 freewareplayer wrote: OP should really update the topic with more infos, people who dont go through all the pages and just read the first post will get quite the wrong idea....
Based on his post, I would tend to think that reality just doesn't fit his quite obvious agends, so you shouldn't get your hopes up too much.
Being German, my personal opinion is that I have not seen any shift towards a more radical society in recent time.
Of course, anecdote does not equal evidence, but here we go:
a) My neighbor is pretty much as conservative as you can be (stout catholic, active member of the 'Junge Union' and even went to the 'Schuelerverbindung' of his Gymnasium) and he has yet to shave his head. Ok, I'm kidding, but even drunk, he does not start spouting nonsense about foreigners ruining this country
b) my gf is (and looks) foreign, she does not experience any discrimination, her main complaints are 'public transport in the countryside sucks' and 'bureaucracy'.
When the "mainstream" politicians get too involved in sniffing each other's buttholes and acting like they are entitled to power just because, fringe parties gain power.
Because fringe parties really are sincere in their concerns for "the people." They are just crazy about who "the people" are and what the concerns should be. But since they are sincere in their vision, they make a connection with (some) frustrated citizens that the mainstream parties cannot make anymore.
Because those mainstream parties, particularly in the EU, really don't care. They don't expect to ever really be taken away from the levers of power.
It's no wonder that parties that are pissed off and frustrated and sincere when they say they care about X attract more voters when people in general are more pissed off and frustrated than they usually are, and when the parties that have been in power forever (or at least alternating power with other parties forever) are not sincere about caring for the "common man" anymore.
On November 13 2012 04:20 DeepElemBlues wrote: When the "mainstream" politicians get too involved in sniffing each other's buttholes and acting like they are entitled to power just because, fringe parties gain power.
Because fringe parties really are sincere in their concerns for "the people." They are just crazy about who "the people" are and what the concerns should be. But since they are sincere in their vision, they make a connection with (some) frustrated citizens that the mainstream parties cannot make anymore.
Because those mainstream parties, particularly in the EU, really don't care. They don't expect to ever really be taken away from the levers of power.
It's no wonder that parties that are pissed off and frustrated and sincere when they say they care about X attract more voters when people in general are more pissed off and frustrated than they usually are, and when the parties that have been in power forever (or at least alternating power with other parties forever) are not sincere about caring for the "common man" anymore.
Couldn't really have put it better, politicians in this country try so very, very hard to look like they can connect with the populace and fail just as hard. If they put as much effort into actually giving a fuck who knows what they could achieve...
On November 13 2012 03:13 The KY wrote: Yes, Hitler's economic policies were revolutionary. I particularly liked when he seized all the property from jewish people and other minorities, didn't allow women to work (and did not count them or the jews as unemployed), and built an economy largely around militarisation and also coincidentally an enormous deficit.
history is not about morals. it's about success. And there is no denying that the German Empire between 1933 and 1942 was incredibly successful. Does not mean we should repeat their strategy because TODAY our morality counts, some things are just not acceptable anymore.
I don't believe in total moral relativism though, so success built on the back of classing a section of your citizens as sub human is not success in my eyes. And as another poster said, the downfall of the German Empire was a result of the actions before it. It's not like everything went swimmingly until one bad decision happened; WW2 and it's consequences for Germany were the inevitable result of the policies, economic and otherwise, of Hitler and the Nazis.
I just don't like to apply todays morals to 194X. It just gives the wrong impression of the people that lived then. While I think todays racist are quite backwards, in the 40s you were a freak nearly everywhere in the world if you were not a racist.
No, about half a dozen 'bad' military decisions and problems happened (including but not limited to: the inability of the italians to cease greece, the tactical errors in the west concerning air combat, the declaration of war against the US) which lead to losing the war. The policies of Hitler were aimed at war and it was inevitable, but the outcome was not determined beforehand
EPT
