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The extent to which Razer collects information is not much different than your average terms of service for most software you use. Like teamliquid, they collect anonymous aggregate and individual data. Unlike teamliquid, they reserve the right to collect personally identifiable information. This personally identifiable information must be volunteered by the user. This includes, your name, email address etc. This information is not shared with any third parties except in a few instances where it is necessary to provide a service or comply with the law. In all circumstances, the user voluntarily provides this information. The relevant sections of the ToS are as follows: + Show Spoiler +“personally identifiable information” may consist of a Subscriber’s name, email address, physical address or other data about the Subscriber that enables the Subscriber to be personally identified.
By using Razer Synapse 2.0 (“Synapse”), the Subscriber agrees that Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.
Razer may use customer contact information provided by Subscribers to send information about Razer, including news about product updates, contests, events, and other promotional materials, but only if the Subscriber agrees to receive such communications. Except in the cases described below, Razer will not share personally identifiable information with any third party unless the Subscriber agrees to such disclosure in advance.
While provision of personally identifiable information remains entirely voluntary, Razer reserves the right to make access to certain value-added services or features conditional upon the supply of personally identifiable information. In such situations, the Subscriber will be given the option to decline use of the particular value added service or feature if he does not wish to furnish personally identifiable information.
In some situations, personally identifiable information the Subscriber inputs in connection with Synapse may be made searchable or otherwise available to other Subscribers (such as in certain public functions). Razer has no obligation to keep the privacy of personally identifiable information that is made available by a Subscriber to other Subscribers.
Collection of personally identifiable information may be out-sourced to associates under agreement with Razer. These associates may adhere to their own set of privacy policies.
Personally identifiable information will be processed and stored by Razer in databases hosted in secure locations. Razer has taken reasonable steps to protect the information Subscribers share with it, including, but not limited to, setup of processes, equipment and software to avoid unauthorized access or disclosure of this information.
Razer may allow third parties performing services under contract with Razer to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services. In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this Privacy Policy.
Razer may release personally identifiable information to comply with court orders or laws that require us to disclose such information, without the need of consent from the Subscriber. |
On November 04 2012 00:21 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 00:18 FromShouri wrote:On November 04 2012 00:13 S_SienZ wrote:On November 04 2012 00:11 FromShouri wrote:
So im confused, people are saying that with the new mouses that the built in windows plug n play disables the LED/extra buttons/scroll wheel/dpi changer, yet Im using windows plug n play for my lachesis and all of those functions still work properly(i ditched the razer drivers because my mouse would randomly go from center of the screen to the side without me even touching it). What specifically about these mice keeps them from operating the same way?
Also, STOP WITH THIS CLOUD BULL SHIT PEOPLE, HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE SO MANY PROFILES THAT THEY NEED CLOUD STORAGE ON A FLIPPIN MOUSE?! I have 1 profile, "DEFAULT" and then I just edit the mouse sensitivity in game if its not where I like it. Not with most Razer mice, but with the amount of buttons you have on a Razer Naga it's not unthinkable to have different macros for different games, hences the need for multiple profiles. Also, when people from a family / live together share a PC. I can understand the family thing, but even then, how many of them are so "hardcore" that they A)Don't use their own equipment and B)Couldn't put up with the settings as is. When I lived at home and there was only 1 PC in my house I had my own keyboard/mouse because I couldn't stand the slow ass compaq ball mouse/generic keyboard that came with my families PC. But before I got my own keyboard/mouse I just easily dealt with it. Same with people living together, my fiancee plays my PC sometimes when our daughter is using our HTPC in the living room and she just deals with the extra sensitivity. Well then it's a conflict between convenience and privacy isn't it? You can't objectively claim one is universally preferred over the other, especially in today's world with stuff like facebook. Personally I don't think it's that big a deal, you only need internet ONCE for activation, and can use it in offline mode forever. Even last year when I was living without internet, I could easily go to a Starbucks or my uni's library whenever I needed to activate new software / games.
I would like to think privacy is universally preferred but you're right I can't say it with 100% truth because there are a lot of idiots out there. And it kind of is a big deal, internet activation for something I will never want or use(cloud storage is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard of, especially if you're some what intelligent enough to install a mouse, as simple as that is) So it really is a big deal for me to be forced to use something that really....I will never need or want. The more companies force me towards cloud storage the more I resist and refuse to buy their products. I am the master of my data and I will not trust another person with my data, because even if they collect small things such as what programs I run on my computer or what games I play, that is still MY information and MY business, not razers.
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What bothers me the most is this part of ToS:
From the Razer Synapse TOS agreement:
“User Generated Information” means any information made available to Razer through your use of the Software. Subject to the Privacy Policy mentioned above, you expressly grant Razer the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.
As far as I understand, this basically means that ANYTHING you create using their mouse could potentially be considered "User Generated Information". For example, if you are an artist and create a soundtrack while using their mouse, they have a right to use this soundtrack in any way they want.
Some ToS agreements reserve a right for manufacturer to use derivative works created using their software (like SC2 ToS), but in this case it's ridiculous.
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On November 04 2012 00:45 PanzerPony wrote:What bothers me the most is this part of ToS: Show nested quote +From the Razer Synapse TOS agreement:
“User Generated Information” means any information made available to Razer through your use of the Software. Subject to the Privacy Policy mentioned above, you expressly grant Razer the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind. As far as I understand, this basically means that ANYTHING you create using their mouse could potentially be considered "User Generated Information". For example, if you are an artist and create a soundtrack while using their mouse, they have a right to use this soundtrack in any way they want. Some ToS agreements reserve a right for manufacturer to use derivative works created using their software (like SC2 ToS), but in this case it's ridiculous.
Not really. They don't actually have any way to yank the soundtrack for your PC.
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It's probably not actually related to spying, but razer added something to the last Deathadder driver (3.0.5) before the Synapse release that was digitally signed by "G SPY Co. ltd.", and there was no information about that company online, so I switched back to 3.0.3 and will stick to that until my mouse dies.
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This does seem to be a bit of a tinfoil hat thread to be honest. Virtually every company does this, and the guy in the OP is most likely incompetent as others have noted, or his system is just messed up as others have had no problems.
First and foremost why doesn't everyone read the privacy policy for themselves? They aren't spying on you and taking notes on your personal habits, and then sharing it with other companies to let them know what you, specifically, do on your spare time.
“aggregate information” is information that describes the habits, usage patterns, and demographics of Subscribers as a group (which may include computer system and device data) but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular Subscriber.
“individual information” is information about a Subscriber (which may include computer system and device data) that is presented in a form distinguishable from information relating to other Subscribers but not in a form that personally identifies any Subscriber or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any Subscriber unless agreed to by the Subscriber in advance of such communication.
“personally identifiable information” may consist of a Subscriber’s name, email address, physical address or other data about the Subscriber that enables the Subscriber to be personally identified.
By using Razer Synapse 2.0 (“Synapse”), the Subscriber agrees that Razer may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information. Razer may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Razer shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below...
Razer may allow third parties performing services under contract with Razer to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services. In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this Privacy Policy...
Razer may release personally identifiable information to comply with court orders or laws that require us to disclose such information, without the need of consent from the Subscriber.
As another poster put it, this is standard legalese. Every company does this.
Secondly, on the issue of having to be "constantly online", as was noted on the second page of this thread:
On November 03 2012 22:58 S_SienZ wrote:
Posted by Min Liang Tan (CEO) facebook:
We recognize that gamers will want to be able to use their gear without an online connection, and that's why Synapse 2.0 has an OFFLINE mode. Basically you have to register, create an account, save your initial settings and if you so prefer, you can stay in offline mode all the time without going online.
I realize that we have had issues with the activation server, and we're making sure we get that sorted out.
Honestly this thread is more enlightening as an example of how easy it is for people to make misinformed decisions and go into conspiracy mode off of a very superficial reading of someone else's account, without taking the time to investigate things themselves. Please learn from this example everyone, it IS important to look at things yourself and not assume that Razer is just stealing your personal information for various nefarious purposes because someone else said so.
This is standard legal procedure, and it includes protecting your right to privacy and personally identifiable information. The only thing they collect is non-specific information in aggregate about the game related habits of the majority of users, so that they can tailor their future products to their customers better.
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On November 04 2012 00:45 PanzerPony wrote:What bothers me the most is this part of ToS: Show nested quote +From the Razer Synapse TOS agreement:
“User Generated Information” means any information made available to Razer through your use of the Software. Subject to the Privacy Policy mentioned above, you expressly grant Razer the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind. As far as I understand, this basically means that ANYTHING you create using their mouse could potentially be considered "User Generated Information". For example, if you are an artist and create a soundtrack while using their mouse, they have a right to use this soundtrack in any way they want.Some ToS agreements reserve a right for manufacturer to use derivative works created using their software (like SC2 ToS), but in this case it's ridiculous.
Highly doubt that would ever happen. Any judge who allows that rule would be the laughing stock of the modern age.
To elaborate more copyrighted works are generally referred to as "intellectual creations", and any competent IP lawyer would definitely look to distinguish that from "generated".
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Wow this is actually a turn-off, I'm currently looking for a mouse and pad that fits my need. The Razer Taipan was my top candidate but I don't want to deal with online DRMs or activation crap. Now, I can't even use the software without online connection?
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On November 04 2012 00:54 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 00:45 PanzerPony wrote:What bothers me the most is this part of ToS: From the Razer Synapse TOS agreement:
“User Generated Information” means any information made available to Razer through your use of the Software. Subject to the Privacy Policy mentioned above, you expressly grant Razer the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind. As far as I understand, this basically means that ANYTHING you create using their mouse could potentially be considered "User Generated Information". For example, if you are an artist and create a soundtrack while using their mouse, they have a right to use this soundtrack in any way they want.Some ToS agreements reserve a right for manufacturer to use derivative works created using their software (like SC2 ToS), but in this case it's ridiculous. Highly doubt that would ever happen. Any judge who allows that rule would be the laughing stock of the modern age. To elaborate more copyrighted works are generally referred to as "intellectual creations", and any competent IP lawyer would definitely look to distinguish that from "generated".
Seconding this...do you honestly believe you have the right interpretation here. That razer has the right to use anything that anyone makes on their computer regardless of copyright, anyway they want? Really?
It says through the use of the software. So that is very specific. It probably relates to the various services that you use through the software, which the company then uses to understand its target demographic better.
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First and foremost why doesn't everyone read the privacy policy for themselves? They aren't spying on you and taking notes on your personal habits, and then sharing it with other companies to let them know what you, specifically, do on your spare time.
To be fair... who really has the patience and capacity to scrutinize the privacy policy in its entirety besides some sort of government or private auditing agency?
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"We then invented Synapse 2.0 where we could provide almost limitless amount of storage for profiles, macros, etc in the cloud as opposed to being limited by physical memory"
This is hilarious. How much onboard memory do you need for mouse profiles? 10Kb? Super weak comment from the CEO of Razer.
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On November 04 2012 00:47 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 00:45 PanzerPony wrote:What bothers me the most is this part of ToS: From the Razer Synapse TOS agreement:
“User Generated Information” means any information made available to Razer through your use of the Software. Subject to the Privacy Policy mentioned above, you expressly grant Razer the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind. As far as I understand, this basically means that ANYTHING you create using their mouse could potentially be considered "User Generated Information". For example, if you are an artist and create a soundtrack while using their mouse, they have a right to use this soundtrack in any way they want. Some ToS agreements reserve a right for manufacturer to use derivative works created using their software (like SC2 ToS), but in this case it's ridiculous. Not really. They don't actually have any way to yank the soundtrack for your PC.
Well, they don't specify exactly what information is being transmitted ("made available to Razer") by their software, so it might as well be screenshots of your display. The Privacy Policy is more explicit about what kind of information is being gathered though.
And yeah, I'm sure they don't want the screenshots of all the shit that I do on my PC, but I do dislike companies being vague about what exactly information they are gathering.
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On November 04 2012 01:01 blinken wrote:
"We then invented Synapse 2.0 where we could provide almost limitless amount of storage for profiles, macros, etc in the cloud as opposed to being limited by physical memory"
This is hilarious. How much onboard memory do you need for mouse profiles? 10Kb? Super weak comment from the CEO of Razer.
I have to agree on this, the price is already retardedly high, and the memory is a bullshit excuse. We can fly to the moon on 200kb of memory but we can't save some data on a mouse without needing massive storage?
Instead of cloud storage they should get some more lean programmers working on their software.
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On November 04 2012 00:58 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 00:54 S_SienZ wrote:On November 04 2012 00:45 PanzerPony wrote:What bothers me the most is this part of ToS: From the Razer Synapse TOS agreement:
“User Generated Information” means any information made available to Razer through your use of the Software. Subject to the Privacy Policy mentioned above, you expressly grant Razer the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind. As far as I understand, this basically means that ANYTHING you create using their mouse could potentially be considered "User Generated Information". For example, if you are an artist and create a soundtrack while using their mouse, they have a right to use this soundtrack in any way they want.Some ToS agreements reserve a right for manufacturer to use derivative works created using their software (like SC2 ToS), but in this case it's ridiculous. Highly doubt that would ever happen. Any judge who allows that rule would be the laughing stock of the modern age. To elaborate more copyrighted works are generally referred to as "intellectual creations", and any competent IP lawyer would definitely look to distinguish that from "generated". Seconding this...do you honestly believe you have the right interpretation here. That razer has the right to use anything that anyone makes on their computer regardless of copyright, anyway they want? Really? It says through the use of the software. So that is very specific. It probably relates to the various services that you use through the software, which the company then uses to understand its target demographic better.
I agree with both of you. I was criticizing the fact that the part about user generated information was vague and open to interpretations. Also, the fact that companies usually don't tell what information they are collecting.
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Hmm. I just recently bought a Deathadder 3.5G. And yeah, Synapse 2.0 bothers me, mostly because it's obnoxious and unnecessary to require "accounts" for every damn thing. (What's next, I have to create an account to use my monitor's features?)
It's true most people don't read the Terms of Service. And unless you are a board certified lawyer, don't even begin to think you have an idea of what it can mean, even if you do read it. If you think common sense or simple meaning will stand up in a court, you're probably wrong. There are limits, but a legal professional is paid to win however they can and push the limits as far as possible if required. If they must argue that black is white and down is up, they will. And if they have a good argument, it may work.
All of that is irrelevant to the real problem with Synapse 2.0 - it sucks. Not just the gateway to pull drivers off, but also just in the new Synapse 2.0 plus drivers means my mouse gets the jitters, can't disconnect ever or it stutters every 2.5 seconds. and generally just becomes impossible to use in any serious fashion. It's got the latest firmware, I'm not buying a mouse just to put scotch tape over the sensor, and that's about all the advice I found on how to "fix it". Oh, I did find the following advice which worked - install the Razer drivers (any version for the product) - configure the way I want it to work. Uninstall all Razer software.
Works beautifully, best mouse I've had since I did that.
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On November 04 2012 01:01 blinken wrote:
"We then invented Synapse 2.0 where we could provide almost limitless amount of storage for profiles, macros, etc in the cloud as opposed to being limited by physical memory"
This is hilarious. How much onboard memory do you need for mouse profiles? 10Kb? Super weak comment from the CEO of Razer.
I'm so glad someone said this. This was literally the first thing I thought of when I read the CEO's letter. Even with massive amounts of macros you're barely going to take up any space. What a joke.
Things like these make it really hard to not be paranoid.
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On November 04 2012 00:19 GeorgeForeman wrote:
This thread is ridiculous. The upshot is that you can't use the mouse if you NEVER HAVE ACCESS TO THE INTERNET EVER. But if you do have access to the internet, you can create a profile and register the product (OH NOS!), and after that, set it to offline mode and NEVER NEED THE INTERNET AGAIN EVER to use the product properly with full functionality.
The ToS thing is also kinda silly because there's tons of shit that collects personal data that you already use. You know what they use this personal data for? Ads. That's it. They put ads up that they think you'll like more. They find out who is using their products (demographic data; a/s/l kinda shit) and make ads for them. It's why your internet is (mostly) free. Get over it.
What an absurd thread.
edit: FWIW, I use Logitech mice and have for years. Never bought a Razer product in my life
Just because something isn't abused now, doesn't mean it won't happen in the future. Besides, private data gets stolen all the time so there's absolutely no reason for companies to have more data than they need. And no, targeted ads don't count. Who cares about fucking ads anyway.
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It's absurd how few of you actually know what you are talking about.The mouse does not need an internet connection to function. What they do is they store your mouse profiles online instead of in a onboard memory. Ofcourse you have to register an account, how else would they link our profiles to you? After that you can put in it online mode and never connect to a razer server again and if you dont need profiles ou dont even have to make and account, just plug and play.
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On November 04 2012 01:56 3772 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 00:19 GeorgeForeman wrote:
This thread is ridiculous. The upshot is that you can't use the mouse if you NEVER HAVE ACCESS TO THE INTERNET EVER. But if you do have access to the internet, you can create a profile and register the product (OH NOS!), and after that, set it to offline mode and NEVER NEED THE INTERNET AGAIN EVER to use the product properly with full functionality.
The ToS thing is also kinda silly because there's tons of shit that collects personal data that you already use. You know what they use this personal data for? Ads. That's it. They put ads up that they think you'll like more. They find out who is using their products (demographic data; a/s/l kinda shit) and make ads for them. It's why your internet is (mostly) free. Get over it.
What an absurd thread.
edit: FWIW, I use Logitech mice and have for years. Never bought a Razer product in my life Just because something isn't abused now, doesn't mean it won't happen in the future. Besides, private data gets stolen all the time so there's absolutely no reason for companies to have more data than they need. And no, targeted ads don't count. Who cares about fucking ads anyway.
Have you read the privacy policy by any chance? Any "abuse" would already have been covered by the law.
Freaking out over pure speculation doesn't seem to make much sense.
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A mouse connecting to the cloud makes no sense at all.
Memory is ridicously small and cheap.
And just for some settings, profile etc?
Memory storing the profile and settings data of all Razer Naga users together should be able to fit in 1 mouse.
Memory storing the profile and settings data of one Razer Naga user should be able to fit in 1 of the leds, most of which aren't needed anyway.
Also,
Props to TL for not trying to hide a discussion that puts their sponsor in a bit negative light, plenty of less objective community portals would.
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Spyware isn't a new thing. If you have something that really requires privacy, don't share it on the Internet much like you wouldn't do it in the middle of a city. The fact that companies trade your trivial personal data has very little real impact on our lives aside from slightly overspecialized ads or whatever.
I am not concerned at all as long as Razer's cloud servers remain stable. That seems to have been the only real problem and Razer is aware of it and working on it.
The devices are functional without Synapse, so you'll have something to work with regardless of whether you can or can't access the Internet. And frankly, if you have enough Internet issues to find yourself unable to even register a Synapse account and log in once to enable offline mode, then really - WTF?
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EPT
