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On September 22 2012 15:56 yaliu07 wrote:The one child policy actually benefit everyone except Chinese. China will probably have 2 billion people right now if China didn't put in one child policy in 1980s. This means more food, water and gas will be consumed. If you think 4 dollars a gallon of gas is bad, then with 2 billion Chinese people you will probably pay 7 dollars a gallon because of supply and demand.
I think that the one child policy benefits the world at large AND China. More than half of the Chinese population is still living in rural areas, and poverty/food scarcity can still be a problem, and that is with 1 billion people, I dont see how the chinese infrastructure could support 2 billion. IMHO the one child policy is something that helped control the incredible growth of China and helped them economically.
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On September 22 2012 15:41 Newbistic wrote:
It certainly is a cultural misunderstanding, but you DO understand how people from other nations would be offended, right? You can't just write it off so easily as "oh well, it's a cultural thing".
For example, if they feel so much sadness for the loss of life the war caused, why do these politicians not issue public, sincere apologies towards the deaths the Japanese have caused to citizens of other nations during the wars? Why are there attempts to re-write history as if certain atrocities never existed?
There is a certain degree of hypocrisy within the combination of these actions that can be easily misconstrued, especially by people who aren't as careful into reading the specifics of another nation's culture (e.g. most people in most nations).
Furthermore, now I am interested in this type of belief. Say a person's father walks into an elementary school and stabs six other Japanese children to death with a knife before turning it on himself. Would that person's father then be absolved of his crimes at death? Would the parents of the deceased children all understand that the father is then guiltless, and not be offended that the person openly pays respects to his father's grave every year?
So you expect the Japanese to change the way they think, behave and the core beliefs they have about life, death and spirituality because people from outside of Japan are too ignorant or lazy to read?
They have, many, many, many many many times and books aren't being re-written at all, the truth of the matter is that the acts of 100 years ago are fast becoming "just another war" in many countries, for example... imagine if children at schools were forced to study IN DEPTH the facts, figures of every battle, incident and war since the beginning of written history...
Yeh... the truth is, there are other things that are more fun/interesting for children to learn, rather than WW2 until the end of time.
I wonder what studying the Tiananmen square massacre, Chairman Mao, TIbet, Taiwan etc etc is like in China, can anyone say, hand on heart that the history books are all 100% honest and accurate regarding these subjects?
Pot. Kettle. Black. Are three words that come to mind when Chinese people complain about Japanese text books.
The father is still guilty but he is dead, he did an awful thing and if his family wants to put his body on a grave than that is there choice, as I said... the soul is not responsible for the actions of the body, the soul is cleansed of all wrong at the moment of death or shortly after that.
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TOKYO -- Hundreds of Japanese marched through downtown Tokyo on Saturday in a loud but tightly controlled protest against China's claim to disputed islands in the East China Sea.
Though hundreds of Japanese protesters gathered in a downtown park and then marched through the glitzy Roppongi district, authorities only allowed small groups of five people each to visit the sidewalk opposite the Chinese Embassy.
"Come on out of there!" some of the protesters screamed at the well-guarded embassy building, which was closed. Dozens of police kept order, moving the groups away from the embassy after only a few minutes.
Organizers of Saturday's march said more than 1,400 people participated. That figure appeared high, but a rough count found at least 800 protesters.
Trucks festooned with anti-China banners used megaphones to blare slogans such as "We will not forgive China!" and "We have the power to protect our nation!"
Many protesters carried large Japanese flags or placards reading "Sink the Chinese boats in our waters" and "Do not give in to the Beijing terrorists."
"The Chinese claims over the islands are recent and this is plain stupidity," said Masanori Ono, 69, who was marching in the protest.
Leaders of the demonstration appeared to be making the best of the limits imposed by police.
"Unlike the violent Chinese, we Japanese are holding a calm, peaceful protest," one organizer said over a loudspeaker. "This is our Japanese way."
Though the anti-Japanese demonstrations in China, which included attacks on Japanese businesses, appear to have wound down, the rhetoric on both sides has remained uncompromising and there are no signs of progress in resolving the territorial dispute.
Saturday's demonstration was the first large-scale protest over the issue in Japan, though right-wing protesters in black trucks routinely blast epithets at the Chinese Embassy.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/hundreds-march-in-tokyo-in-anti-china-protest-over-disputed-islands-1.967254
Interesting that some Japanese people would say "they will not forgive China".
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On September 22 2012 15:48 raviy wrote:
1. Suppress the protests, which would cause the government to lose favour with the public, and cause public protests against the CCP instead of a foreign country.
2. Don't suppress the protests, lose diplomatic favour with foreign countries, take heavy toll to Chinese economy.
Given that self-preservation is the highest priority for almost every government in the world, it's easy to see why they chose option 2.
The point is that the Chinese Government almost exclusively exercises option 1 except in anti-Japanese riots. This not being the first one by far. Japan is just what muslim immigrants are in many western nations, what anti-americanism is in europe, what the jews were in Nazi Germany, what communists was in last century USA etc etc. That convenient through which you can vent domestic frustration. Especially dictatorial regimes requires this tool but it often arises independently even in democratic countries. It is definitely a useful tool for the Chinese Government to be able to point and say "look over there!" whenever it feels that public interest needs to be diverted from domestic issues.
That does not mean that they incite the riots directly, usually these riots arise on their own based on outside events. The bottom line is however that if the Chinese Regime did not intentionally nourish and plant the seeds to retain this sentiment then the underlying issues could actually be solved but they will never be as long as there are groups that have interests in seeing this dispute continue. There are such groups on the other side of the ocean too, Japanese right wing politicians most definitely want this issue to continue as well they are just not numerous enough to be swaying the Japanese opinion on the issue.
Actually the most dangerous thing with all of this is that the more years that go by, the only thing this will result in is a resurgence of Japanese nationalism instead. I have lived in Japan for several years and just over those years I have seen a lot of change. Japanese people in general but young people especially are definitely self conscious about the country's world war 2 past and I have never in my life met any Japanese person who is not affected by a feeling of responsibility even when they were born after the war was over, in general Japanese people have a hard time with patriotism although it has changed in recent years. But I also know that a lot of Japanese people are very tired of being guilt ridden about something they had nothing to do with. From the Japanese side it is evident that it does not actually matter how many times the government would apologize to foreign countries for their actions in WW2, they know that they will never be let off the hook by China especially and that sickness of being constantly blamed over years turns into anger, until it inevitably turns into nationalism, I don't think we are that far off from this.
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1019 Posts
On September 22 2012 11:53 robjapan wrote:
The whole yasu kuni thing is a cultural misunderstanding, you do not understand how the Japanese feel regarding death, souls, heaven etc
The soul is cleansed of wrong doing at the moment of death, this is their belief, the body did wrong and very bad things and it was punished with death. The soul does not need to be punished.
This is their belief and quite frankly I think it's rather offensive for people to be offended by it. If people from around the world took time to understand Japanese peoples beliefs, there would be no anger about yasu kuni.
I have spoken at length with a monk on this very subject and this is how I know the above, the soul is not responsible for the wrong doings of the body.
When a politician visits yasukuni they are not there to celebrate the war, or to praise war criminals, they are there to show their deep respect and sadness for the loss of life the war caused. The deep felt regret of going to war and costing the lives of so many people. The fortitude to NEVER go to war ever again.
So when you say about Hitler, well that isn't Germany's beliefs right? so of course if they did such a thing it would be outrageous, but when you consider Japanese religious beliefs then I really struggle to understand why Koreans or Chinese are angry about this.
If anyone takes the time to actually understand how Japanese people believe, you will understand there is nothing to be angry about regarding Yasukuni Shrine.
Well doesn't that suck. You have a belief that the soul is cleared of wrongdoing at death and thus its ok to make a shrine that includes war criminals and then go pray there - and thus you are innocent because your neighbors across the ocean go rabid for all the wrong reasons because it is a total misunderstanding that you are paying respects to the war criminals.
But you're wrong again. People have a right to be angry about the shrine. The yasukuni shrine isn't just a place where people go to show their sadness for war, as you say, which is totally correct. It's also a place where they dedicate every person that died fighting for, and behalf, of the emperor. That includes every japanese soldier who fought and died in WWII. Which means that yasukuni is memorializing every japanese who died to uphold the policies of oppression, slavery, genocide, and other gross violations of human rights committed by WWII-era Japan. And you say you are struggling to understand why the koreans or chinese are angry?
I have to give you credit lol. The very existence of the shrine makes people mad, while at the same time destroying it because of foreign anger it is a stupid idea too. The heart of the problem is the fact that japan willingly committed all these terrible crimes and people simply aren't going to forget. The government could make a million apologies and give out billions more in compensation money and people will still be angry. Sucks for you and 99% of the japanese public that did nothing wrong.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On September 22 2012 17:28 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 15:45 T.O.P. wrote:On September 21 2012 15:59 Orek wrote:On September 21 2012 15:42 TehPrime wrote:On September 21 2012 15:18 robjapan wrote:
That is an opinion, you stated it as a FACT, which clearly it is not.
Japan currently owns the land, it being returned to Japan from the Allies.
Why would it file a complaint? And the part about Japan not responding to such a move "according to sources" is pure speculation.
It is Japan who tried to go to the ICJ in its dispute with Korea and Korea REFUSED, this is fact.
Please be very careful when you post things as facts when they are not. And why the hell would Korea agree to japan's ridiculous ICJ complaint when they already own the freaking islet? Talk about being ignorant. This is only my personal opinion, but I think all countries should agree to go to ICJ if proposed by another country. As ridiculous as it sounds, if China/Korea disputed the sovereignty of Tokyo, I think Japan needs to accept it to avoid double-standard. To be fair, all of 1)Korean claim over Dokdo 2)Japanese claim over Takeshima 3)Chinese claim over Diaoyu Islands 4)Japanese claim over Senkaku Islands are not conclusive because all of a)Cairo Declaration b)Potsdam Declaration c)San Francisco Treaty d)Shimonoseki Treaty e)Japan–Korea Treaty of 1910 didn't specifically named all territory/islands so that room for interpretation remained. If all of 6800+ Japanese islands had been named, if latitude-longitude had been used to show all territory inside, then we wouldn't have had this issue today. No matter how these disputes end in future, we as a younger generation have to learn one thing: "Any contract/agreement/treaty must be ultra-specific to avoid dispute later on. Hard work today is nothing compared to the effort needed to fix it." That, at least, is what I learned from all these. It doesn't matter what treaty you sign if people think those are unfair treaties. You can't be serious saying that. Then blame your own government for signing them. The government failed to represent people's opinions. Japan also signed many unfair treaties with western "white" countries back then. Japan accepted the terms, and didn't deny the effectiveness solely based on unfairness. No matter how unfair it is, promise is promise. That's how Japan acted in the international diplomacy. "Unfairness" can't be a reason to deny legitimacy of treaties.
Why can't I be serious. It's not like the Chinese had a say back then since they were so weak. Today China is strong, so they're not gonna honor those unfair treaties.
Treaties are a compromise based on the situation at that time. The situation is different now.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 23 2012 04:12 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 11:53 robjapan wrote:
The whole yasu kuni thing is a cultural misunderstanding, you do not understand how the Japanese feel regarding death, souls, heaven etc
The soul is cleansed of wrong doing at the moment of death, this is their belief, the body did wrong and very bad things and it was punished with death. The soul does not need to be punished.
This is their belief and quite frankly I think it's rather offensive for people to be offended by it. If people from around the world took time to understand Japanese peoples beliefs, there would be no anger about yasu kuni.
I have spoken at length with a monk on this very subject and this is how I know the above, the soul is not responsible for the wrong doings of the body.
When a politician visits yasukuni they are not there to celebrate the war, or to praise war criminals, they are there to show their deep respect and sadness for the loss of life the war caused. The deep felt regret of going to war and costing the lives of so many people. The fortitude to NEVER go to war ever again.
So when you say about Hitler, well that isn't Germany's beliefs right? so of course if they did such a thing it would be outrageous, but when you consider Japanese religious beliefs then I really struggle to understand why Koreans or Chinese are angry about this.
If anyone takes the time to actually understand how Japanese people believe, you will understand there is nothing to be angry about regarding Yasukuni Shrine. Well doesn't that suck. You have a belief that the soul is cleared of wrongdoing at death and thus its ok to make a shrine that includes war criminals and then go pray there - and thus you are innocent because your neighbors across the ocean go rabid for all the wrong reasons because it is a total misunderstanding that you are paying respects to the war criminals. But you're wrong again. People have a right to be angry about the shrine. The yasukuni shrine isn't just a place where people go to show their sadness for war, as you say, which is totally correct. It's also a place where they dedicate every person that died fighting for, and behalf, of the emperor. That includes every japanese soldier who fought and died in WWII. Which means that yasukuni is memorializing every japanese who died to uphold the policies of oppression, slavery, genocide, and other gross violations of human rights committed by WWII-era Japan. And you say you are struggling to understand why the koreans or chinese are angry? I have to give you credit lol. The very existence of the shrine makes people mad, while at the same time destroying it because of foreign anger it is a stupid idea too. The heart of the problem is the fact that japan willingly committed all these terrible crimes and people simply aren't going to forget. The government could make a million apologies and give out billions more in compensation money and people will still be angry. Sucks for you and 99% of the japanese public that does nothing wrong.
The people of Japan willingly committed all those crimes in the same sense people in Germany committed all those crimes--they were living in a military dictatorship who instutionalized racism and belief that Japanese people were superior to all other races. It was a shitty situation all around and it makes no sense to blame every Japanese civilian living in the period or much less every Japanese person today. Put yourself in the shoes of a Japanese person at the time and you would've found yourself hard to do anything either (assuming you lose any knowledge of future events and you get the same brainwash treatment everyone else got about how superior your race is).
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1019 Posts
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies.
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Well, this new development is interesting.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 23 2012 04:47 white_horse wrote:
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies.
Yes, perhaps some of it is human nature, but it doesn't mean people can't go against their nature when it runs contrary to their reason.
I agree there may be attitude differences on the part of the Japanese government with say, the German government, but the difference between the people in Poland, France and Belgium not actively fostering nationalism as opposed to the Chinese government actively doing so contributes to at least part of this problem as well.
I suppose what I'm saying is that even if the Japanese government stopped visiting the shrine and didn't try to nationalize the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands today, some other event would have happened and the Chinese people would've gotten all riled up in anti-Japanese anger. I am saying that no matter what the Japanese government does until either the Chinese government stops aggressively pushing nationalism in their own country or the Chinese people wise up to the fact that the criminals some 70 years ago have all died and that there's nothing left to blame on the Japanese people, this problem won't be solved.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On September 23 2012 04:57 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 04:47 white_horse wrote:
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies. Yes, perhaps some of it is human nature, but it doesn't mean people can't go against their nature when it runs contrary to their reason. I agree there may be attitude differences on the part of the Japanese government with say, the German government, but the difference between the people in Poland, France and Belgium not actively fostering nationalism as opposed to the Chinese government actively doing so contributes to at least part of this problem as well. I suppose what I'm saying is that even if the Japanese government stopped visiting the shrine and didn't try to nationalize the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands today, some other event would have happened and the Chinese people would've gotten all riled up in anti-Japanese anger. I am saying that no matter what the Japanese government does until either the Chinese government stops aggressively pushing nationalism in their own country or the Chinese people wise up to the fact that the criminals some 70 years ago have all died and that there's nothing left to blame on the Japanese people, this problem won't be solved.
I think there would be less hate if the Japan's emperor, prime minister, etc, went to Beijing and bowed down to the chinese to apologize on behalf of Japan for the crimes that the previous generation made.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 23 2012 05:24 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 04:57 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 04:47 white_horse wrote:
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies. Yes, perhaps some of it is human nature, but it doesn't mean people can't go against their nature when it runs contrary to their reason. I agree there may be attitude differences on the part of the Japanese government with say, the German government, but the difference between the people in Poland, France and Belgium not actively fostering nationalism as opposed to the Chinese government actively doing so contributes to at least part of this problem as well. I suppose what I'm saying is that even if the Japanese government stopped visiting the shrine and didn't try to nationalize the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands today, some other event would have happened and the Chinese people would've gotten all riled up in anti-Japanese anger. I am saying that no matter what the Japanese government does until either the Chinese government stops aggressively pushing nationalism in their own country or the Chinese people wise up to the fact that the criminals some 70 years ago have all died and that there's nothing left to blame on the Japanese people, this problem won't be solved. I think there would be less hate if the Japan's emperor, prime minister, etc, went to Beijing and bowed down to the chinese to apologize on behalf of Japan for the crimes that the previous generation made.
Bowing down is not used for apologies between countries in the modern era. Also, I think you missed the point I was trying to make.
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On September 23 2012 05:38 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 05:24 T.O.P. wrote:On September 23 2012 04:57 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 04:47 white_horse wrote:
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies. Yes, perhaps some of it is human nature, but it doesn't mean people can't go against their nature when it runs contrary to their reason. I agree there may be attitude differences on the part of the Japanese government with say, the German government, but the difference between the people in Poland, France and Belgium not actively fostering nationalism as opposed to the Chinese government actively doing so contributes to at least part of this problem as well. I suppose what I'm saying is that even if the Japanese government stopped visiting the shrine and didn't try to nationalize the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands today, some other event would have happened and the Chinese people would've gotten all riled up in anti-Japanese anger. I am saying that no matter what the Japanese government does until either the Chinese government stops aggressively pushing nationalism in their own country or the Chinese people wise up to the fact that the criminals some 70 years ago have all died and that there's nothing left to blame on the Japanese people, this problem won't be solved. I think there would be less hate if the Japan's emperor, prime minister, etc, went to Beijing and bowed down to the chinese to apologize on behalf of Japan for the crimes that the previous generation made. Bowing down is not used for apologies between countries in the modern era. Also, I think you missed the point I was trying to make.
Yeah um, this is East Asia. Bowing is still pretty big. Also my read on robjapan's posts is that Japan is putting it's head in the sand and everyone should leave it alone, after they've kicked the sand in everyone's face.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 23 2012 05:53 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 05:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 05:24 T.O.P. wrote:On September 23 2012 04:57 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 04:47 white_horse wrote:
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies. Yes, perhaps some of it is human nature, but it doesn't mean people can't go against their nature when it runs contrary to their reason. I agree there may be attitude differences on the part of the Japanese government with say, the German government, but the difference between the people in Poland, France and Belgium not actively fostering nationalism as opposed to the Chinese government actively doing so contributes to at least part of this problem as well. I suppose what I'm saying is that even if the Japanese government stopped visiting the shrine and didn't try to nationalize the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands today, some other event would have happened and the Chinese people would've gotten all riled up in anti-Japanese anger. I am saying that no matter what the Japanese government does until either the Chinese government stops aggressively pushing nationalism in their own country or the Chinese people wise up to the fact that the criminals some 70 years ago have all died and that there's nothing left to blame on the Japanese people, this problem won't be solved. I think there would be less hate if the Japan's emperor, prime minister, etc, went to Beijing and bowed down to the chinese to apologize on behalf of Japan for the crimes that the previous generation made. Bowing down is not used for apologies between countries in the modern era. Also, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Yeah um, this is East Asia. Bowing is still pretty big. Also my read on robjapan's posts is that Japan is putting it's head in the sand and everyone should leave it alone, after they've kicked the sand in everyone's face.
Bowing down is not used for apologies between countries in the modern era. Also, I think you missed the point I was trying to make.
We're talking about stuff done on the international scene. Do statesmen take customs from their own countries and use them when they meet delegates from foreign nations? When was the last time a delegate from one country bowed down to a delegate from another? It's not a custom on the international scene nor is it done when a country apologizes to another in the modern age.
Also there's no guarantee the Chinese gov't won't use the tactic of riling up its own citizens in the future even if the emperor and the prime minister went to Beijing and did bow down.
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1019 Posts
On September 23 2012 04:57 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 04:47 white_horse wrote:
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies. Yes, perhaps some of it is human nature, but it doesn't mean people can't go against their nature when it runs contrary to their reason. I agree there may be attitude differences on the part of the Japanese government with say, the German government, but the difference between the people in Poland, France and Belgium not actively fostering nationalism as opposed to the Chinese government actively doing so contributes to at least part of this problem as well. I suppose what I'm saying is that even if the Japanese government stopped visiting the shrine and didn't try to nationalize the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands today, some other event would have happened and the Chinese people would've gotten all riled up in anti-Japanese anger. I am saying that no matter what the Japanese government does until either the Chinese government stops aggressively pushing nationalism in their own country or the Chinese people wise up to the fact that the criminals some 70 years ago have all died and that there's nothing left to blame on the Japanese people, this problem won't be solved.
I never said that china's response to japan is right either. China is wrong too. They just totally destroyed any shred of credibility the moment the first chinese guy threw a rock at the panasonic factory in china. And chinese people probably fantasize about japanese leaders coming to beijing and making 90 degree bows and they want that because they think that would make their own dicks bigger but do you think japan would ever give into that? Can you imagine the humility that the Japanese people would face if their leaders did that? The public would never let their leaders do something like that. Japan's actions are wrong first, but china is wrong too. And they aren't ever going to give in to each other because their self-worth in the form of nationalism is in the line.
But my original point is the fact that the japanese government still has the wrong attitude. They aren't sincere.
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On September 23 2012 04:27 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 17:28 Orek wrote:On September 22 2012 15:45 T.O.P. wrote:On September 21 2012 15:59 Orek wrote:On September 21 2012 15:42 TehPrime wrote:On September 21 2012 15:18 robjapan wrote:
That is an opinion, you stated it as a FACT, which clearly it is not.
Japan currently owns the land, it being returned to Japan from the Allies.
Why would it file a complaint? And the part about Japan not responding to such a move "according to sources" is pure speculation.
It is Japan who tried to go to the ICJ in its dispute with Korea and Korea REFUSED, this is fact.
Please be very careful when you post things as facts when they are not. And why the hell would Korea agree to japan's ridiculous ICJ complaint when they already own the freaking islet? Talk about being ignorant. This is only my personal opinion, but I think all countries should agree to go to ICJ if proposed by another country. As ridiculous as it sounds, if China/Korea disputed the sovereignty of Tokyo, I think Japan needs to accept it to avoid double-standard. To be fair, all of 1)Korean claim over Dokdo 2)Japanese claim over Takeshima 3)Chinese claim over Diaoyu Islands 4)Japanese claim over Senkaku Islands are not conclusive because all of a)Cairo Declaration b)Potsdam Declaration c)San Francisco Treaty d)Shimonoseki Treaty e)Japan–Korea Treaty of 1910 didn't specifically named all territory/islands so that room for interpretation remained. If all of 6800+ Japanese islands had been named, if latitude-longitude had been used to show all territory inside, then we wouldn't have had this issue today. No matter how these disputes end in future, we as a younger generation have to learn one thing: "Any contract/agreement/treaty must be ultra-specific to avoid dispute later on. Hard work today is nothing compared to the effort needed to fix it." That, at least, is what I learned from all these. It doesn't matter what treaty you sign if people think those are unfair treaties. You can't be serious saying that. Then blame your own government for signing them. The government failed to represent people's opinions. Japan also signed many unfair treaties with western "white" countries back then. Japan accepted the terms, and didn't deny the effectiveness solely based on unfairness. No matter how unfair it is, promise is promise. That's how Japan acted in the international diplomacy. "Unfairness" can't be a reason to deny legitimacy of treaties. Why can't I be serious. It's not like the Chinese had a say back then since they were so weak. Today China is strong, so they're not gonna honor those unfair treaties. Treaties are a compromise based on the situation at that time. The situation is different now.
Well, at least, Chinese government is not as ignorant/shameless to claim things in that way. Being weak means you have to compromise a lot, but that doesn't mean compromise itself is null and void.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 23 2012 06:15 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 04:57 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 04:47 white_horse wrote:
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies. Yes, perhaps some of it is human nature, but it doesn't mean people can't go against their nature when it runs contrary to their reason. I agree there may be attitude differences on the part of the Japanese government with say, the German government, but the difference between the people in Poland, France and Belgium not actively fostering nationalism as opposed to the Chinese government actively doing so contributes to at least part of this problem as well. I suppose what I'm saying is that even if the Japanese government stopped visiting the shrine and didn't try to nationalize the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands today, some other event would have happened and the Chinese people would've gotten all riled up in anti-Japanese anger. I am saying that no matter what the Japanese government does until either the Chinese government stops aggressively pushing nationalism in their own country or the Chinese people wise up to the fact that the criminals some 70 years ago have all died and that there's nothing left to blame on the Japanese people, this problem won't be solved. I never said that china's response to japan is right either. China is wrong too. They just totally destroyed any shred of credibility the moment the first chinese guy threw a rock at the panasonic factory in china. And chinese people probably fantasize about japanese leaders coming to beijing and making 90 degree bows and they want that because they think that would make their own dicks bigger but do you think japan would ever give into that? Can you imagine the humility that the Japanese people would face if their leaders did that? The public would never let their leaders do something like that. Japan's actions are wrong first, but china is wrong too. And they aren't ever going to give in to each other because their self-worth in the form of nationalism is in the line. But my original point is the fact that the japanese government still has the wrong attitude. They aren't sincere.
Yeah, I agree nationalism on both sides is quite terrible. That's why we should try to make a mental effort to be objective and fair regardless of whether we're Chinese, Japanese or whatever nationality. Sure, we might be taken in by an emotional appeal from time to time, but we can still try to be conscious of the fact and become aware of our own biases. We would then live in a world where a Chinese person can recognize their government is doing something unjust on the world scene or an American person can recognize their government is fighting an unjust war and try to do something to stop it (something like the Vietnam War protests).
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On September 23 2012 06:02 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 05:53 Taku wrote:On September 23 2012 05:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 05:24 T.O.P. wrote:On September 23 2012 04:57 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 04:47 white_horse wrote:
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies. Yes, perhaps some of it is human nature, but it doesn't mean people can't go against their nature when it runs contrary to their reason. I agree there may be attitude differences on the part of the Japanese government with say, the German government, but the difference between the people in Poland, France and Belgium not actively fostering nationalism as opposed to the Chinese government actively doing so contributes to at least part of this problem as well. I suppose what I'm saying is that even if the Japanese government stopped visiting the shrine and didn't try to nationalize the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands today, some other event would have happened and the Chinese people would've gotten all riled up in anti-Japanese anger. I am saying that no matter what the Japanese government does until either the Chinese government stops aggressively pushing nationalism in their own country or the Chinese people wise up to the fact that the criminals some 70 years ago have all died and that there's nothing left to blame on the Japanese people, this problem won't be solved. I think there would be less hate if the Japan's emperor, prime minister, etc, went to Beijing and bowed down to the chinese to apologize on behalf of Japan for the crimes that the previous generation made. Bowing down is not used for apologies between countries in the modern era. Also, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Yeah um, this is East Asia. Bowing is still pretty big. Also my read on robjapan's posts is that Japan is putting it's head in the sand and everyone should leave it alone, after they've kicked the sand in everyone's face. Show nested quote +Bowing down is not used for apologies between countries in the modern era. Also, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. We're talking about stuff done on the international scene. Do statesmen take customs from their own countries and use them when they meet delegates from foreign nations? When was the last time a delegate from one country bowed down to a delegate from another? It's not a custom on the international scene nor is it done when a country apologizes to another in the modern age. Also there's no guarantee the Chinese gov't won't use the tactic of riling up its own citizens in the future even if the emperor and the prime minister went to Beijing and did bow down.
President Barack Hussein Obama.
![[image loading]](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0128759fd303970c-800wi)
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 23 2012 07:19 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 06:02 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 05:53 Taku wrote:On September 23 2012 05:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 05:24 T.O.P. wrote:On September 23 2012 04:57 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 04:47 white_horse wrote:
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies. Yes, perhaps some of it is human nature, but it doesn't mean people can't go against their nature when it runs contrary to their reason. I agree there may be attitude differences on the part of the Japanese government with say, the German government, but the difference between the people in Poland, France and Belgium not actively fostering nationalism as opposed to the Chinese government actively doing so contributes to at least part of this problem as well. I suppose what I'm saying is that even if the Japanese government stopped visiting the shrine and didn't try to nationalize the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands today, some other event would have happened and the Chinese people would've gotten all riled up in anti-Japanese anger. I am saying that no matter what the Japanese government does until either the Chinese government stops aggressively pushing nationalism in their own country or the Chinese people wise up to the fact that the criminals some 70 years ago have all died and that there's nothing left to blame on the Japanese people, this problem won't be solved. I think there would be less hate if the Japan's emperor, prime minister, etc, went to Beijing and bowed down to the chinese to apologize on behalf of Japan for the crimes that the previous generation made. Bowing down is not used for apologies between countries in the modern era. Also, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Yeah um, this is East Asia. Bowing is still pretty big. Also my read on robjapan's posts is that Japan is putting it's head in the sand and everyone should leave it alone, after they've kicked the sand in everyone's face. Bowing down is not used for apologies between countries in the modern era. Also, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. We're talking about stuff done on the international scene. Do statesmen take customs from their own countries and use them when they meet delegates from foreign nations? When was the last time a delegate from one country bowed down to a delegate from another? It's not a custom on the international scene nor is it done when a country apologizes to another in the modern age. Also there's no guarantee the Chinese gov't won't use the tactic of riling up its own citizens in the future even if the emperor and the prime minister went to Beijing and did bow down. President Barack Hussein Obama.
That was considered a faux pas by everyone.
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On September 23 2012 07:25 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 07:19 Xpace wrote:On September 23 2012 06:02 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 05:53 Taku wrote:On September 23 2012 05:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 05:24 T.O.P. wrote:On September 23 2012 04:57 CountChocula wrote:On September 23 2012 04:47 white_horse wrote:
I never blamed any Japanese person in that period or Japanese person from today. I just said that it human nature operates such that people will still be angry at japan regardless of what the government does. It's unfair but thats how it is.
It's still an attitude problem on the part of the japanese government. You only have to take a quick look in the differences in the public attitudes about imperial japan and nazi germany between Japan and Germany, respectively, to understand why koreans and chinese are still venting while people in poland or france or belgium aren't protesting outside their german embassies. Yes, perhaps some of it is human nature, but it doesn't mean people can't go against their nature when it runs contrary to their reason. I agree there may be attitude differences on the part of the Japanese government with say, the German government, but the difference between the people in Poland, France and Belgium not actively fostering nationalism as opposed to the Chinese government actively doing so contributes to at least part of this problem as well. I suppose what I'm saying is that even if the Japanese government stopped visiting the shrine and didn't try to nationalize the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands today, some other event would have happened and the Chinese people would've gotten all riled up in anti-Japanese anger. I am saying that no matter what the Japanese government does until either the Chinese government stops aggressively pushing nationalism in their own country or the Chinese people wise up to the fact that the criminals some 70 years ago have all died and that there's nothing left to blame on the Japanese people, this problem won't be solved. I think there would be less hate if the Japan's emperor, prime minister, etc, went to Beijing and bowed down to the chinese to apologize on behalf of Japan for the crimes that the previous generation made. Bowing down is not used for apologies between countries in the modern era. Also, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Yeah um, this is East Asia. Bowing is still pretty big. Also my read on robjapan's posts is that Japan is putting it's head in the sand and everyone should leave it alone, after they've kicked the sand in everyone's face. Bowing down is not used for apologies between countries in the modern era. Also, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. We're talking about stuff done on the international scene. Do statesmen take customs from their own countries and use them when they meet delegates from foreign nations? When was the last time a delegate from one country bowed down to a delegate from another? It's not a custom on the international scene nor is it done when a country apologizes to another in the modern age. Also there's no guarantee the Chinese gov't won't use the tactic of riling up its own citizens in the future even if the emperor and the prime minister went to Beijing and did bow down. President Barack Hussein Obama. That was considered a faux pas by everyone.
American Reaction
Fox News! What?
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EPT
