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On September 19 2012 03:53 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:03 tokicheese wrote:Stephen Harper apologized to the Native Americans who were put into residential schools from the 1800s up until the 1970s recently and it was the most pointless stupid thing government could possibly be doing. He apologized for what happened over 100 years ago that he had not even the slightest powed over... Do people think these apologies actually change anything? Does it make Unit 731 go away? What about Nanking does it go away? Or how about the comfort women? Japan has apologized for what it has done asking them to complete a list of demands is just childish. If you really want to go into terrible things humanity has done look at the stuff that was done by colonialists in Africa. The Belgians in Congo is praticularily horrible why don't they have a list of demands....? Or what about he Genghis Khan? he built a mountain of fucking skulls and threw so many books in Baghdad into the euphrates it was black. Why isn't Mongolia apologizing to the middle east? Or the italians to the British? You have to let the past be done with at some point...
IIRC the whole text book thing was less than 1% of the school systems text books (2 private schools or something) that failed anyways.
I think it's hilarious that xpace is from the US and calling people out on warcrimes. My Lai, Agent Orange, the obliteration of German population centers, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, killing of Japanese PoWs, Japanese trophies, the unrestricted navel warfare (that Donitz was convicted of at Nuremburg btw), the drone strikes in the middle east killing hundreds if not thousands of civilians. Where is that list at? Victors justice... Excellent paragraph dedicated at an ad hominem attack. Are we talking about America's past? Is there widespread hatred for America in Vietnam? Are they burning American flags and destroying American-labeled or branded property? If there is, then we'll get to that discussion. Or is this justification stemming from the notion that if America can get away with it, Japan should follow suit? Enough with the deflections. As for the portion I bolded in your post, it's blatantly obvious that you're oblivious to what's happening. It's quite sad, really, seeing as there are so many other posters with TL IDs from Japan similar to you that are giving more logical, and more importantly factual information. Here, some reading material for you: Yes there is widespread animosity towards Americans in Vietnam actually. Many southerners feel betrayed by the US when they pulled out leaving them at the mercy of the communists and it is obvious why the north vietnamese/laos would dislike the US (hint it was the indiscriminate bombings and the Agent Orange that is still fucking people up today) So you admit that Americans got away with warcrimes then? I hate to break to to you but people are burning american flags all over the Middle East. How many protests are there in the middle east that are entirely anti american because of all the civilians dying? How is it an unrelated belief for you to be calling for Japan to humiliate themselves as an American who also have some of the most heinous war crimes in history on your hands to get off scot free? Do you not see how massively hypocritical your being? You post a list of Japanese apologies from the people who were involved one of which was denied by McArthur which was a huge dick move by McArthur who was generally a dick head anyways. Isn't that what the Chinese wanted an apology?
Again, deflection.
Ever been to Washington, D.C and visited the Vietnam War memorial? Probably not.
![[image loading]](http://www.atpm.com/7.01/washington-dc/images/vietnam-memorial.jpg)
One of the most visited locations in America, dedicated to honoring those who fought, and the fallen, of the Vietnam War.
- My Lai was not condoned by the United States government or the United States Army. Unit 731 was a unit within the Imperial Japanese Army, established by the Kempeitai, and commanded by an army general. "Comfort stations" were organized and supervised by the Imperial Japanese Army.
- Hugh Thompson, the helicopter pilot who 'intervened' C Company during the massacre was given a Distinguished Flying Cross for his services, which he threw away. He was later given a Purple Heart, and Soldier's Medal, "for heroism above and beyond the call of duty while saving the lives of at least 10 Vietnamese civilians during the unlawful massacre of non-combatants by American forces at My Lai."
- William Calley was found guilty in one of the most contested trials ever conducted. He was sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder of the Vietnamese civilians. Because of the intervention of Richard Nixon, he served (a regrettable) four months in prison. The fact that he was tried signifies that the United States found injustice in his actions. On the other hand, officers and scientists that were directly involved in the experiments conducted by Unit 731 were not tried, and in fact were put into prominent post-war positions in politics (really?), academia, business, and so on in Japan.
- William Calley apologizes 40 years later: http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/calley-apologizes-for-my-lai-massacre/nQMzh/ and http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/an-apology-for-my-lai-four-decades-later/. Vietnamese reaction: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/08/24/regional/regional_30110509.php
- Several United States former military personnel have visited the site, as well as survivors of the My Lai massacre: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23651088/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/my-lai-marks-massacres-th-anniversary/ Further commemoration: http://articles.cnn.com/1998-03-16/world/9803_16_my.lai_1_lawrence-colburn-nguyen-chung-massacre-victims?_s=PM:WORLD
- The United States has acknowledged, regretted, and set-up funds directly as a result of Agent Orange http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37735860/. Agent Orange clean-up by the United States: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-19190509
On the other hand, we have Japanese delegation officials on foreign soil trying to take down a memorial for comfort women in my home state: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/nyregion/monument-in-palisades-park-nj-irritates-japanese-officials.html
And further:
http://www.koreabang.com/2012/stories/japanese-netizens-protest-against-comfort-women-koreans-react.html
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On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.)
Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason.
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On September 19 2012 05:23 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:03 Orek wrote:On September 19 2012 04:16 Cattlecruiser wrote:
Japanese government wants DokDo (Liancourt Rocks) from Korea also. I understand that they feel the pressure from natural disasters to claim as much of the fishing rights and land outside of the sinking island, but they are going about the geopolitics in the worst way.
Korea and China have helped Japan during the Tsunami disaster in 2011 with relief aid and harboring refugees. Have fun on your sinking ticking time bomb of an island.
PS The Japanese civilization has always looked to gain territoriality since the unification of power under Toyotomi Hideyoshi and have done many atrocious experiments, war crimes, and acts against humanity. It feels like poetic justice that their nation is literally sinking. On September 18 2012 18:27 Orek wrote:On September 18 2012 17:22 Womwomwom wrote:On September 18 2012 17:18 Tal wrote:On September 18 2012 17:09 sharkie wrote:
Why is there so much hate for Japan?
Yes, they have committed atrocious things. But what country in the world has not? Japan's Rapes and Germany's Holocaust are "the most horrible" ones because they have lost the most recent war.
But we are talking about a country here who has SPENT BILLIONS of dollars supporting other countries in need. You think without Japan Southeast Asia would be as prosperous as it is today? It wouldn't be.
Southeast Asia loves to hate on Japan, yet they still have welcomed and KEEP welcoming Japan's money.
And no, they not only help with money but also by being helpful. How many nature catastrophes did we have in the last 10 years? Tons, from tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes. And which country has sent the most help in MONEY, RESOURCES and WORKERS in the world? Yes, it is Japan.
Just ask New Zealand. When the big earthquake happened in Japan, most helpers were still in New Zealand because they suffered huge damage from a earthquake prior to the big one.
Yes Japan's past is shameful, I feel huge remorse and the huge majority of Japan feels the same. So I ask again, why is there so much hate for Japan? Show me another country whose atrocities match Japan's. It's not unusual to support the area next to you who you can sell stuff to. Look at the rest of the worlds huge aid budgets. Japan isn't an outlier in that field. Why is there so much hate for Japan? Because Japan's remorse isn't demonstrated. It's not in its politics, or its culture. There are no monuments, except to the war criminals. That's why China and Korea keep so much hate - and when something like these islands comes up, throwing up the spectre of imperialism, they see it as a sign nothing has changed. Dokdo Island is a non-issue. If South Korea wants them, they bring it to the ICJ and Japan will lose. They haven't done this despite the fact Japan has submitted the case three times so far. In the case of China, I don't even think their claims exist within modern maritime law (which is also their justification for their hilarious boundaries in the South China Sea). No one wants to settle any of these issues so the status quo keeps spinning around. Treaty of San Francisco CHAPTER II TERRITORY U.S. Draft made on March 19, 1947 Article 4 Japan hereby renounces all rights and titles to Korea and all minor offshore Korean islands, including Quelpart Island, Port Hamilton, Dagelet Island (Utsuryo) Island and Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima).Reviced U.S.-U.K. Draft made on June 14, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan, recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet MY EDIT: Liancourt Rocks=Dokdo=Takeshima is removed from the list of islands that Japan has to renouce all right, title and claim to. Requests From Korea July 19, 1951 1.My Government requests that the word "renounces" in Paragraph a, Article Number 2, should be replaced by "confirms that it renounced on August 9,1945, all right, title and claim to Korea and the islands which were part of Korea prior to its annexation by Japan, including the island Quelpart, Port Hamilton, Dagelet, Dokdo and Parangdo." Rusk Documents August 10, 1951 As regards the island of Dokdo, otherwise known as Takeshima or Liancourt Rocks, this normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea. Final text of the treaty on September 8, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet. MY EDIT: Dok......do? Take.....shima? Liancourt.....Rocks? Sources: Draft Treaty of Peace With JapanIndex:Rusk note of 1951Let's just go to ICJ if Korea is so sure of winning the case ^^. Korean government doesn't want to because they know they would lose. Well, this was a bit off-topic as this thread is about anti-Japan protest in China, but in the context of territorial dispute in the region, maybe relevant enough. takeshima/dokdo not part of korea according to what record? the records support dokdo as korea's territory before annexation and japan's only claim is that to return the island wasnt included in the treaty. and if that claim somehow stands, no fucking doubt japan-korea relations will be zero because you're taking again what was korea's through "legal" means, its like a robber suing the homeowner because he got hurt while breaking in(which has happened in us court). and korea has nothing to gain going to icj, it only validates japan's claim, korea has alot to lose and nothing to gain meanwhile its win-win for japan. i did research on this because i was curious and i say it without bias being korean. there are hazy maps that koreans say this proves korea's claim meanwhile japan refute korea's claim because the island names and position not matching but yet japan's evidence shows both, korea's and japan's and korea's maps show korea's, dokdo is visible from ulleungdo on a clear day just so you know, which japan claimed it isn't visible...yet there is a picture that proves it.
Japanese government argues that there was no Korean control over the island. With all the name mix up and hazy maps, evidence is ambiguous at best. That's one thing. Another is the legal process I posted with plenty of sources above. Korea lost its sovereignty in 1910 when Japan annexed the country, which by the way was internationally recognized at the time by countries like UK=Japanese ally back then, so I wonder if it really matters at all who had sovereignty over island prior to it. Korea was a part of Japan up until 1945. So, which part of "Japan" is given up holds upmost importance. The drafting process clealy omits Dokdo specifically. It's not like Dokdo had never been mentioned in the process. And yes, Korea probably won't gain much from going to ICJ. Law-abiding country of Japan would not take the island by force. If that ever happens, I guarantee here that I harshly criticize Japanese government as much as I believe Dokdo/Takeshima is Japanese territory. Once barbaric, yet now peace-loving country of Japan (believe it or not) should only seek to regain control of the island through the means of legal action/peaceful dialogue, not force.
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On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason.
Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point.
If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions.
If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so.
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On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Nor has being born in the United States magically induced me into having a personality that thinks it makes sense to kill hundreds of thousands. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution, as the Japanese have amended theirs. There are still white supremacists in the U.S., but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.)
Nobody's asking YOU for an apology. They're asking your GOVERNMENT. Hell, NAACP is still asking for reparations for slavery, and Native Americans(or American Indians, whatever the hell they want to be called) are still asking for tribal lands back. Just b/c you did not live in those times, does not mean your government gets off scott free.
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On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is.
There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked.
A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed.
To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning.
America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation thereafter have benefited from that near extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort.
Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives.
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On September 19 2012 06:33 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason. Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point. If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions. If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so.
That line of thinking doesn't work when you talking about countries, where hundreds of years is considered recent though. Your reasoning might work but that's not how people think or act, so it doesn't really matter.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives.
Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse.
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On September 19 2012 06:33 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason. Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point. If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions. If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so.
You're putting it on a personal perspective, when it's really a macro issue. Japan IS a different place today then 60 years ago. It doesn't change the fact that it's still RESPONSIBLE for the actions conducted through out its history.
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People aren't asking for an apology from a specific person. They are asking an apology from an institution, in this case the government of Japan.
As an example, Obama had literally nothing to do with the syphilis experiments in Guatemala. But he, as a representative of the US government, apologized for it.
In October 2010, the U.S. government formally apologized and announced that there was no statute of limitations for the violation of human rights in that medical research.[8][9] In a joint statement, Hillary Clinton and Kathleen Sebelius said:
Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health. We deeply regret that it happened, and we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent research practices. The conduct exhibited during the study does not represent the values of the US, or our commitment to human dignity and great respect for the people of Guatemala.[10]
President Barack Obama apologized to President Álvaro Colom, who had called these experiments "a crime against humanity".[11]
"It is clear from the language of the report that the U.S. researchers understood the profoundly unethical nature of the study. In fact the Guatemalan syphilis study was being carried out just as the “Doctors’ Trial” was unfolding at Nuremberg (December 1946 – August 1947), when 23 German physicians stood trial for participating in Nazi programs to euthanize or medically experiment on concentration camp prisoners."[12]
The U.S. government asked the Institute of Medicine to conduct a review of these experiments.[1] Separately, the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues was asked to convene a panel of international experts to review the current state of medical research on humans around the world and ensure that such incidents cannot be repeated.[1] The Commission report, Ethically Impossible: STD Research in Guatemala from 1946 to 1948, published in September 2011, concluded that "the Guatemala experiments involved unconscionable basic violations of ethics, even as judged against the researchers' own recognition of the requirements of the medical ethics of the day."[13][14]
Human rights activists have called for subjects' families to be compensated.[3]
This is what a responsible and reasonable government does. This is what Japan isn't doing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_syphilis_experiment
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"war criminal" is such a ridiculous phrase. who decides which side has these supposed "war criminals"? the WINNERS that's who. everyone is guilty in a war which serves no purpose but the destruction of your enemy.
The Chinese are guilty every day of ONGOING severe human rights abuses in their country, they back North Korea, and they have the audacity to turn their hatred onto innocent people who have nothing to do with a war that happened 70 years ago.
It's nothing but a mob creating an enemy that they can blame their problems on as an outlet for aggressive behavior. Turning over cars and burning shops is all good as long as its justifiable amirite. It's straight up thuggery
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On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Nor has being born in the United States magically induced me into having a personality that thinks it makes sense to kill hundreds of thousands. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution, as the Japanese have amended theirs. There are still white supremacists in the U.S., but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.)
Do you vote? Do you pay taxes? Do you go to work everyday? Do you put your children through public schools? Do you buy grocery at your nearby Walmart? Do you...?
Every act that you do is understandable only through the lens of your participation in the society around you. No excuses that you give about individualism can possibly save you when the sum of the actions of your society come back to haunt you. Should China go to war with the US tomorrow, it won't matter one bit whether you are personally responsible for the war. You will live and die by your society's actions - all the same.
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On September 19 2012 06:33 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Nor has being born in the United States magically induced me into having a personality that thinks it makes sense to kill hundreds of thousands. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution, as the Japanese have amended theirs. There are still white supremacists in the U.S., but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Nobody's asking YOU for an apology. They're asking your GOVERNMENT. Hell, NAACP is still asking for reparations for slavery, and Native Americans(or American Indians, whatever the hell they want to be called) are still asking for tribal lands back. Just b/c you did not live in those times, does not mean your government gets off scott free.
The Chinese rioters are not at the Japanese embassy (well not JUST at the Japanese embassy). The Anime convention IEM was going to be at isn't a Japanese government event. Toyota is not a company owned by the Japanese government.
*And for the record, in my opinion reparations for slavery make no sense, but the U.S. should buck up and give the Black Hills back to the Sioux and start fulfilling other treaty obligations it has reneged on. The failure to honor our treaty obligations IS something that Americans should oppose, and those who do not do deserve criticism. That is a failure of the CURRENT GENERATION. We cannot reverse the massacres, or free the dead who were once slaves, but we can stop violating the agreements signed by our government in good faith.
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On September 19 2012 06:38 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:33 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason. Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point. If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions. If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so. You're putting it on a personal perspective, when it's really a macro issue. Japan IS a different place today then 60 years ago. It doesn't change the fact that it's still RESPONSIBLE for the actions conducted through out its history.
That's crap. EVERY people/nation/whatever has committed horrible crimes throughout their history. There are no innocents looking at things that way. It is foolish to suggest we all wallow in guilt for killing off the Neanderthals.
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On September 19 2012 06:38 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives. Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse.
You've given opinions and presented them as facts. I ignored those specifics for a reason - because it is both off-topic and inflammatory. You've basically accused the US of committing war crimes because the US bombed Japanese cities in the context of total war. I'm not going to address that except to say that it is off topic. Open another thread if you want to talk about whether the bombing of Japan during war-time was justified.
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On September 19 2012 06:18 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag I wouldn't say so. My Chinese coworker (mid 30s) lost four uncles. Even they are not personally involved (plenty still did, don't forget people as young as 7 participated, and younger ones sure would remember also), they were directly and indirectly affected. My grandfather on my Mom's side was in the Europe theater, and he would not use any product made in Germany to this day. I'm sure it's similar in China. Edit: add original text since a few people posted in between *rolls eyes* Where did I say people shouldn't be upset about tragedies that happened to them. But you know what? Your Chinese co-worker is wrong if they hate Japanese in general. Take a Japanese person off the street - they did not kill those uncles. Seeking to punish children for the crimes of their parents is wrong. Hating people who commit war crimes is not wrong. Hating and punishing others for what they didn't do is wrong.
Taking Responsibility
"Punish" is a very strong word.
You will never be put in a spot where you'd have to apologize for the atomic bombs because you weren't born yet. You're absolutely, 100% correct. But if I asked you "do you think dropping the bomb was the right thing to do?" You'd say no. You'd say no to Unit 731. You'd say no to comfort women. You'd say no to the Rape of Nanking. No. None of those things can ever, ever be justified. And you know why you can say these things? Because you're educated about them. The atomic bombs were not omitted in our text books. We learned about them. We acknowledged the event.
I will never go around yelling "those Japs attacked us at Pearl Harbor!"
Imagine that I did that, and when someone goes "and you dropped the atomic bombs on them, and firebombed Tokyo" - that I go and say "wait, what? that shit didn't happen, that's Japanese propaganda!!!"
Do you at least understand now?
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:41 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives. Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse. You've given opinions and presented them as facts. I ignored those specifics for a reason - because it is both off-topic and inflammatory. You've basically accused the US of committing war crimes in the space of a few sentences. I'm not going to address that except to say that it is off topic. Open another thread if you want to talk about whether the bombing of Japan during war-time was justified.
Funny. I thought you were the one who brought up the atomic bombings of Japan and framed them like they were the correct decision at the time. I merely pointed out how immoral they were and how your argument--that we ought to use it as precedent and punish a country for the actions of a few--is flawed.
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On September 19 2012 06:40 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:33 czylu wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Nor has being born in the United States magically induced me into having a personality that thinks it makes sense to kill hundreds of thousands. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution, as the Japanese have amended theirs. There are still white supremacists in the U.S., but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Nobody's asking YOU for an apology. They're asking your GOVERNMENT. Hell, NAACP is still asking for reparations for slavery, and Native Americans(or American Indians, whatever the hell they want to be called) are still asking for tribal lands back. Just b/c you did not live in those times, does not mean your government gets off scott free. The Chinese rioters are not at the Japanese embassy (well not JUST at the Japanese embassy). The Anime convention IEM was going to be at isn't a Japanese government event. Toyota is not a company owned by the Japanese government. *And for the record, in my opinion reparations for slavery make no sense, but the U.S. should buck up and give the Black Hills back to the Sioux and start fulfilling other treaty obligations it has reneged on. The failure to honor our treaty obligations IS something that Americans should oppose, and those who do not do deserve criticism. That is a failure of the CURRENT GENERATION. We cannot reverse the massacres, or free the dead who were once slaves, but we can stop violating the agreements signed by our government in good faith.
Hey nobody's saying what the rioters are doing is correct. Violent demonstrations ARE WRONG regardless of the reason. But just b/c what they are doing is wrong, doesn't mean the reasons they are doing it are unfounded and wrong. Like I said, you're applying a personal perspective on what SHOULD be an issue of governments. no government is going after the grandchildren of war criminals, they are going after the government of the grandchildren of war criminals. Governments are like corporations, what they do sticks with them, even after a turnover of power.
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On September 19 2012 06:42 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:18 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag I wouldn't say so. My Chinese coworker (mid 30s) lost four uncles. Even they are not personally involved (plenty still did, don't forget people as young as 7 participated, and younger ones sure would remember also), they were directly and indirectly affected. My grandfather on my Mom's side was in the Europe theater, and he would not use any product made in Germany to this day. I'm sure it's similar in China. Edit: add original text since a few people posted in between *rolls eyes* Where did I say people shouldn't be upset about tragedies that happened to them. But you know what? Your Chinese co-worker is wrong if they hate Japanese in general. Take a Japanese person off the street - they did not kill those uncles. Seeking to punish children for the crimes of their parents is wrong. Hating people who commit war crimes is not wrong. Hating and punishing others for what they didn't do is wrong. Taking Responsibility"Punish" is a very strong word. You will never be put in a spot where you'd have to apologize for the atomic bombs because you weren't born yet. You're absolutely, 100% correct. But if I asked you "do you think dropping the bomb was the right thing to do?" You'd say no. You'd say no to Unit 731. You'd say no to comfort women. You'd say no to the Rape of Nanking. No. None of those things can ever, ever be justified. And you know why you can say these things? Because you're educated about them. The atomic bombs were not omitted in our text books. We learned about them. We acknowledged the event. I will never go around yelling "those Japs attacked us at Pearl Harbor!" Imagine that I did that, and when someone goes "and you dropped the atomic bombs on them, and firebombed Tokyo" - that I go and say "wait, what? that shit didn't happen, that's Japanese propaganda!!!" Do you at least understand now?
I wouldn't say it was wrong to drop the a bombs on Japan. It's funny how you never hear about the firebombings of Tokyo where MANY more were killed. It was believed among the american military leadership at the time that Japan would not surrender until millions more were killed, less blood was shed by using those bombs then there would have been on both sides. And it worked...it stopped the war.
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On September 19 2012 06:41 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:38 czylu wrote:On September 19 2012 06:33 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason. Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point. If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions. If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so. You're putting it on a personal perspective, when it's really a macro issue. Japan IS a different place today then 60 years ago. It doesn't change the fact that it's still RESPONSIBLE for the actions conducted through out its history. That's crap. EVERY people/nation/whatever has committed horrible crimes throughout their history. There are no innocents looking at things that way. It is foolish to suggest we all wallow in guilt for killing off the Neanderthals.
And when governments go outside their bounds and commit war crimes, they need to be punished in defeat. Otherwise, what's to stop them from doing it again and again? Nobody gives a crap about the moral rights and wrongs, they give a crap on getting what's theirs. Think of it as Apple vs. Google/Samsung in court, Apple is not suing google based on morals(i'm sure it doesn't give a crap if they stole their tech or not), it's suing Google because it wants its money and wants google's sales.
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