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On September 19 2012 07:00 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:52 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:35 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:33 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason. Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point. If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions. If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so. That line of thinking doesn't work when you talking about countries, where hundreds of years is considered recent though. Your reasoning might work but that's not how people think or act, so it doesn't really matter. HAH, so I should be a fool because everyone else is. Thank you no, I am not a lemming. Not a fool, but naive.
Actually, you are incorrect. It would be naive if I didn't understand other people's motivations. I do understand them. I described them, and (in this case) condemn them. That is not naivte, but basic reason... and morality. There is no inherent moral justification in being part of the majority, just as "I believe X because lots of other people believe it" is a logical fallacy.
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On September 19 2012 07:00 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:47 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:44 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:41 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives. Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse. You've given opinions and presented them as facts. I ignored those specifics for a reason - because it is both off-topic and inflammatory. You've basically accused the US of committing war crimes in the space of a few sentences. I'm not going to address that except to say that it is off topic. Open another thread if you want to talk about whether the bombing of Japan during war-time was justified. Funny. I thought you were the one who brought up the atomic bombings of Japan and framed them like they were the correct decision at the time. I merely pointed out how immoral they were and how your argument--that we ought to use it as precedent and punish a country for the actions of a few--is flawed. That's your own interpretation once again. I brought them up to argue that individuals and societies are never independent. The actions of a few Japanese leaders during WW 2 caused their entire society to suffer the consequences. This is not a fluke. This is the way it has always been throughout history. Individuals are not islands onto themselves. They are participants in society, and when those societies go to war, whether the individual personally agrees with the war has no bearing whatsoever on whether he is affected by it. You are confusing being affected with being responsible & guilty. Yes, every Japanese person today is affected, at least in some small way, by the wars of the old Imperial government. This is obvious. But it does not follow that they should be accountable for those wars. It is foolish for the Chinese to blame today's Japanese for the atrocities of World War II. Doing so is racist in that it applies to a race (socially constructed - in this case, Japanese) a condition (aggressive militarism) inherent to the race. The rioters are advocating punishing the current generation for the sins of their parents while assuming they are ideologically identical on account of race. That is wrong, and for you to consider it reasonable is sad. That may be the way things ARE - but that does not mean you are right. It merely adds you to the vast ranks of those who are wrong.
The classic failing of idealism is to fail to see reality, and to pretend that ideals are a valid replacement. Thus they are doomed to never have their hopes for the world fulfilled.
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On September 19 2012 07:03 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:00 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:52 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:35 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:33 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason. Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point. If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions. If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so. That line of thinking doesn't work when you talking about countries, where hundreds of years is considered recent though. Your reasoning might work but that's not how people think or act, so it doesn't really matter. HAH, so I should be a fool because everyone else is. Thank you no, I am not a lemming. Not a fool, but naive. Actually, you are incorrect. It would be naive if I didn't understand other people's motivations. I do understand them. I described them, and (in this case) condemn them. That is not naivte, but basic reason... and morality. There is no inherent moral justification in being part of the majority, just as "I believe X because lots of other people believe it" is a logical fallacy.
dude, you understand jackshit.
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On September 19 2012 07:01 EchoZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:57 ChThoniC wrote:
Can we agree that the most ridiculous thing of this all is the hate on the ground because of this?
Nobody deserves to have their car busted because of the country it was made in.
Corporations don't deserve to have their factories shut down because of the pissing contests of corrupt governments.
I think it's crazy how many mindless drones will attack, murder, and die for their government.
Here are the people at fault in these island disputes:
- The Japanese government for being a pitiful representation of their own people and doing unnecessary actions that provoke other country leaders.
- The Chinese government for encouraging violence against Japan.
- The Korean government for indoctrinating students with anti-Japanese hatred from childhood.
- Anyone in any of these countries that perpetuates this hatred and blindly follows their corrupt government. Very well said. I just feel like our government is just adding oil into the fire.
Thank you!
The Japanese government has had like 7 prime ministers in 7 years. They have all had approval ratings in the 20s or worse, and do a terrible job at representing Japanese citizens. All governments have this problem, but for the Japanese recently it's even worse.
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On September 19 2012 07:04 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:00 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:47 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:44 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:41 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives. Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse. You've given opinions and presented them as facts. I ignored those specifics for a reason - because it is both off-topic and inflammatory. You've basically accused the US of committing war crimes in the space of a few sentences. I'm not going to address that except to say that it is off topic. Open another thread if you want to talk about whether the bombing of Japan during war-time was justified. Funny. I thought you were the one who brought up the atomic bombings of Japan and framed them like they were the correct decision at the time. I merely pointed out how immoral they were and how your argument--that we ought to use it as precedent and punish a country for the actions of a few--is flawed. That's your own interpretation once again. I brought them up to argue that individuals and societies are never independent. The actions of a few Japanese leaders during WW 2 caused their entire society to suffer the consequences. This is not a fluke. This is the way it has always been throughout history. Individuals are not islands onto themselves. They are participants in society, and when those societies go to war, whether the individual personally agrees with the war has no bearing whatsoever on whether he is affected by it. You are confusing being affected with being responsible & guilty. Yes, every Japanese person today is affected, at least in some small way, by the wars of the old Imperial government. This is obvious. But it does not follow that they should be accountable for those wars. It is foolish for the Chinese to blame today's Japanese for the atrocities of World War II. Doing so is racist in that it applies to a race (socially constructed - in this case, Japanese) a condition (aggressive militarism) inherent to the race. The rioters are advocating punishing the current generation for the sins of their parents while assuming they are ideologically identical on account of race. That is wrong, and for you to consider it reasonable is sad. That may be the way things ARE - but that does not mean you are right. It merely adds you to the vast ranks of those who are wrong. The classic failing of idealism is to fail to see reality, and to pretend that ideals are a valid replacement. Thus they are doomed to never have their hopes for the world fulfilled.
Hey look, most people out there are wrong. I should be wrong, too! (That way I don't look foolish.) <---- this is what you are advocating in your last post.
Who ever has their hopes for the world fulfilled? + Show Spoiler + I do see reality, thank you. I know the motivations that drive people. I know most people will never understand how they are manipulated. This does not mean I should reject reason and morality. Nor should I become a hermit and refuse to teach.
Of course I have no influence over the China-Japan tensions. Neither do you. Wow. Shocker. Revelations. I do have the eyes of a few individuals on this forum, and I hope some of the readers have learned a thing or two.
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On September 19 2012 07:05 ChThoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:01 EchoZ wrote:On September 19 2012 06:57 ChThoniC wrote:
Can we agree that the most ridiculous thing of this all is the hate on the ground because of this?
Nobody deserves to have their car busted because of the country it was made in.
Corporations don't deserve to have their factories shut down because of the pissing contests of corrupt governments.
I think it's crazy how many mindless drones will attack, murder, and die for their government.
Here are the people at fault in these island disputes:
- The Japanese government for being a pitiful representation of their own people and doing unnecessary actions that provoke other country leaders.
- The Chinese government for encouraging violence against Japan.
- The Korean government for indoctrinating students with anti-Japanese hatred from childhood.
- Anyone in any of these countries that perpetuates this hatred and blindly follows their corrupt government. Very well said. I just feel like our government is just adding oil into the fire. Thank you! The Japanese government has had like 7 prime ministers in 7 years. They have all had approval ratings in the 20s or worse, and do a terrible job at representing Japanese citizens. All governments have this problem, but for the Japanese recently it's even worse.
^ This. While I've disagreed with several of your previous sentiments in this thread, this addresses the root of the problem.
China should ask the US to invade Japan and remove the government, since the people's voices aren't being represented and are being ignored by their rulers! 
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 07:03 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:56 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:50 MisterFred wrote:Doomwish, you are exactly right. On September 19 2012 06:39 Azarkon wrote:
Do you vote? Do you pay taxes? Do you go to work everyday? Do you put your children through public schools? Do you buy grocery at your nearby Walmart? Do you...?
Every act that you do is understandable only through the lens of your participation in the society around you. No excuses that you give about individualism can possibly save you when the sum of the actions of your society come back to haunt you. Should China go to war with the US tomorrow, it won't matter one bit whether you are personally responsible for the war. You will live and die by your society's actions - all the same. Yes. Yes. No. No. No. I can control my own actions. This is all I can do (technically, I can only control my own thought, but luckily as a practical matter I have more freedom than that*). What you fail to realize is that nationality is a social construct. It is as easy to say that I am part of the society that invaded China in the 1930s and committed various atrocities because I am part of humanity. You have crafted a group of people with inclusions and exclusions that don't make a ton of sense unless they get ridiculously legalistic. It may be that I live and die by my society's actions. That does not make me responsible for them. That does not make the actions of the Chinese rioters any less foolish & racist. *Basic stoicism. A society is an interdependent structure, in which each participant plays a role. Whether you admit to this or not, that is what it is. Responsibility in the context of societal acts are borne by all members of said society. It is only possible to escape that responsibility if you detach yourself from the society altogether, or otherwise actively work against it. The hatred between China and Japan is not between individuals. It is between countries. A country is a social construct, yes, but just because it is a social construct does not make it less tangible. Conflicts and grudges between countries have ever lasted across generations. Saying that this is foolish is to not understand humanity to begin with. Can a country think? Can a country hate? What does it mean to hate another country? It sounds to me you're getting lost in the abstractions and using them in ways they weren't designed to be used. "Saying that this is foolish is to not understand humanity to begin with." What's your reasoning? Should we believe it just because it sounds pithy or because you said so? No, you should believe it because it is all around you. It is how humans behave, whether you like it or not.
Argumentum ad populum. Just because you see it a lot doesn't make it something innate in humans. You can reason your way out of nationalism by asking the questions in my previous post:
Can a country think? Can a country hate? What does it mean to hate another country?
There's a reason nationalism is considered an "infantile disease".
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On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Nor has being born in the United States magically induced me into having a personality that thinks it makes sense to kill hundreds of thousands. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution, as the Japanese have amended theirs. There are still white supremacists in the U.S., but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.)
You're missing the point. Americans don't deny that the atomic bombs got droppped, nor do you have no knowledge or completely shady knowledge of what happened. I really want to find this clip where Japanese civilians in Tokyo got interviewed on various topics and they were hopelessly clueeless. Its not that the apology is wanted, more the people want them to admit to and acknowledge what happened rather than trying to cover it up.
Edit (q?): when's the flotilla of Chinese boats set to reach Diaoyu/Senkaku?
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On September 19 2012 07:09 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:05 ChThoniC wrote:On September 19 2012 07:01 EchoZ wrote:On September 19 2012 06:57 ChThoniC wrote:
Can we agree that the most ridiculous thing of this all is the hate on the ground because of this?
Nobody deserves to have their car busted because of the country it was made in.
Corporations don't deserve to have their factories shut down because of the pissing contests of corrupt governments.
I think it's crazy how many mindless drones will attack, murder, and die for their government.
Here are the people at fault in these island disputes:
- The Japanese government for being a pitiful representation of their own people and doing unnecessary actions that provoke other country leaders.
- The Chinese government for encouraging violence against Japan.
- The Korean government for indoctrinating students with anti-Japanese hatred from childhood.
- Anyone in any of these countries that perpetuates this hatred and blindly follows their corrupt government. Very well said. I just feel like our government is just adding oil into the fire. Thank you! The Japanese government has had like 7 prime ministers in 7 years. They have all had approval ratings in the 20s or worse, and do a terrible job at representing Japanese citizens. All governments have this problem, but for the Japanese recently it's even worse. ^ This. While I've disagreed with several of your previous sentiments in this thread, this addresses the root of the problem. China should ask the US to invade Japan and remove the government, since the people's voices aren't being represented and are being ignored by their rulers!
One root. Don't forget the other 3.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 07:11 calderon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Nor has being born in the United States magically induced me into having a personality that thinks it makes sense to kill hundreds of thousands. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution, as the Japanese have amended theirs. There are still white supremacists in the U.S., but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) You're missing the point. Americans don't deny that the atomic bombs got droppped, nor do you have no knowledge or completely shady knowledge of what happened. I really want to find this clip where Japanese civilians in Tokyo got interviewed on various topics and they were hopelessly clueeless. Its not that the apology is wanted, more the people want them to admit to and acknowledge what happened rather than trying to cover it up.
You mean similar to those videos of American civilians where they can't place France on the world map? There's ignorant people everywhere. Anecdotal evidence can always be found... and inevitably refuted.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 19 2012 03:02 Enders116 wrote:
This is just what the world needs...
And now this is the perfect political platform to bring these other two issues to the eyes of the world:
- The Hague convention of 1980 in regard to international parental abduction and the fact that Japan has not signed said convention. See video below for more information.
+ Show Spoiler +
and...
- Japanese hunting of Endangered species (whales, dolphins, etc.) in international waters.
Until these other two issues are addressed and foreigners are treated completely equally with Japanese citizens in their courts in all aspects, I will turn a blind eye to all of the lynchings, pillagings, protests, and plunders conducted by the Chinese.
and I whole-heartedly agree with the post that Kwark made that got in to the OP.
@Enders116 You bring shame to my Taiwanese heritage. This is fucking disgusting. Most are normal humans living their lives out, and then the governments play their little games. Disgusting, DISgusting DISGUSTING.
This is a competition for limited resources, but for most people, it's this stupid national pride that clouds all justice and has normal, "sane" people baying out for blood. A wrong in history is NEVER corrected by another wrong! I'd hate to see this cycle of hatred spawn just because a person is of a certain ethnicity or lives on a plot of land.
Then you say this.
+ Show Spoiler +Enders116 Taiwan. September 19 2012 03:28. Posts 177
Some places cannot be saved. They can only be destroyed.
That is...that is why these STUPID wars keep going on.
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On September 19 2012 07:09 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:04 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 07:00 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:47 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:44 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:41 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation.
Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did?
A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives. Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse. You've given opinions and presented them as facts. I ignored those specifics for a reason - because it is both off-topic and inflammatory. You've basically accused the US of committing war crimes in the space of a few sentences. I'm not going to address that except to say that it is off topic. Open another thread if you want to talk about whether the bombing of Japan during war-time was justified. Funny. I thought you were the one who brought up the atomic bombings of Japan and framed them like they were the correct decision at the time. I merely pointed out how immoral they were and how your argument--that we ought to use it as precedent and punish a country for the actions of a few--is flawed. That's your own interpretation once again. I brought them up to argue that individuals and societies are never independent. The actions of a few Japanese leaders during WW 2 caused their entire society to suffer the consequences. This is not a fluke. This is the way it has always been throughout history. Individuals are not islands onto themselves. They are participants in society, and when those societies go to war, whether the individual personally agrees with the war has no bearing whatsoever on whether he is affected by it. You are confusing being affected with being responsible & guilty. Yes, every Japanese person today is affected, at least in some small way, by the wars of the old Imperial government. This is obvious. But it does not follow that they should be accountable for those wars. It is foolish for the Chinese to blame today's Japanese for the atrocities of World War II. Doing so is racist in that it applies to a race (socially constructed - in this case, Japanese) a condition (aggressive militarism) inherent to the race. The rioters are advocating punishing the current generation for the sins of their parents while assuming they are ideologically identical on account of race. That is wrong, and for you to consider it reasonable is sad. That may be the way things ARE - but that does not mean you are right. It merely adds you to the vast ranks of those who are wrong. The classic failing of idealism is to fail to see reality, and to pretend that ideals are a valid replacement. Thus they are doomed to never have their hopes for the world fulfilled. Hey look, most people out there are wrong. I should be wrong, too! (That way I don't look foolish.) <---- this is what you are advocating in your last post. Who ever has their hopes for the world fulfilled? + Show Spoiler + I do see reality, thank you. I know the motivations that drive people. I know most people will never understand how they are manipulated. This does not mean I should reject reason and morality. Nor should I become a hermit and refuse to teach. Of course I have no influence over the China-Japan tensions. Neither do you. Wow. Shocker. Revelations. I do have the eyes of a few individuals on this forum, and I hope some of the readers have learned a thing or two.
No one learns anything from moral naivete.
Your entire argument was a strawman to begin with. Do you really think the Chinese are protesting / rioting because they believe the current generation of Japanese are responsible for what happened in World War II? Of course not. Yet that has been your thrust all along.
I'm going to put it simply - the Chinese are protesting / rioting because they believe the Diaoyu / Senkaku islands are ill gotten territory, territory that Japan - the country - took by force during a time of weakness from China. Thus, they believe they are justified to take back the territory by force.
They are rioting against Japanese property owners because they want to hurt Japan - the country, and in so doing make a statement to the leaders of Japan - the country - that their behavior is not going to be tolerated.
These issues have nothing to do with arcane notions of moral responsibility / individual vs. collective guilt as they are taught in philosophy. They are grounded in a concrete reality in which China and Japan - the countries - are fundamentally antagonistic towards each other.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 07:04 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:00 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:47 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:44 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:41 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives. Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse. You've given opinions and presented them as facts. I ignored those specifics for a reason - because it is both off-topic and inflammatory. You've basically accused the US of committing war crimes in the space of a few sentences. I'm not going to address that except to say that it is off topic. Open another thread if you want to talk about whether the bombing of Japan during war-time was justified. Funny. I thought you were the one who brought up the atomic bombings of Japan and framed them like they were the correct decision at the time. I merely pointed out how immoral they were and how your argument--that we ought to use it as precedent and punish a country for the actions of a few--is flawed. That's your own interpretation once again. I brought them up to argue that individuals and societies are never independent. The actions of a few Japanese leaders during WW 2 caused their entire society to suffer the consequences. This is not a fluke. This is the way it has always been throughout history. Individuals are not islands onto themselves. They are participants in society, and when those societies go to war, whether the individual personally agrees with the war has no bearing whatsoever on whether he is affected by it. You are confusing being affected with being responsible & guilty. Yes, every Japanese person today is affected, at least in some small way, by the wars of the old Imperial government. This is obvious. But it does not follow that they should be accountable for those wars. It is foolish for the Chinese to blame today's Japanese for the atrocities of World War II. Doing so is racist in that it applies to a race (socially constructed - in this case, Japanese) a condition (aggressive militarism) inherent to the race. The rioters are advocating punishing the current generation for the sins of their parents while assuming they are ideologically identical on account of race. That is wrong, and for you to consider it reasonable is sad. That may be the way things ARE - but that does not mean you are right. It merely adds you to the vast ranks of those who are wrong. The classic failing of idealism is to fail to see reality, and to pretend that ideals are a valid replacement. Thus they are doomed to never have their hopes for the world fulfilled.
Just to cure you of the disease of "nationalism" and obsession with the abstraction of countries, I'll leave you a quote from Jizzus over at Gosugamers:
"Countries are a form of abstraction, wherein most people take pride in the random accident of birth."
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On September 19 2012 07:11 calderon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Nor has being born in the United States magically induced me into having a personality that thinks it makes sense to kill hundreds of thousands. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution, as the Japanese have amended theirs. There are still white supremacists in the U.S., but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) You're missing the point. Americans don't deny that the atomic bombs got droppped, nor do you have no knowledge or completely shady knowledge of what happened. I really want to find this clip where Japanese civilians in Tokyo got interviewed on various topics and they were hopelessly clueeless. Its not that the apology is wanted, more the people want them to admit to and acknowledge what happened rather than trying to cover it up.
Actually, we have quite a few Americans that insist Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary. (Despite the fact they were not. This is easily provable in historical documents such as U.S. analyses of intelligence intercepts of the Japanese discussing surrender but... our text books don't teach that! They teach that the atomic bombs were considered necessary. Dun Dun Dun!!!!) There are also Americans who don't believe the Holocaust happened.
So the Japanese (meaning many of them who apparently appear on Youtube videos) are clueless. This is a reason to riot, burn Toyotas, and take two regional powers to the brink of war? No, it is not.
I think you're missing the point. The present day Japanese did not commit atrocities, and the anti-Japanese riots against them are based on racism (e.g. they WOULD commit such atrocities if they COULD).
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On September 19 2012 06:58 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:54 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:39 redviper wrote:People aren't asking for an apology from a specific person. They are asking an apology from an institution, in this case the government of Japan. As an example, Obama had literally nothing to do with the syphilis experiments in Guatemala. But he, as a representative of the US government, apologized for it. In October 2010, the U.S. government formally apologized and announced that there was no statute of limitations for the violation of human rights in that medical research.[8][9] In a joint statement, Hillary Clinton and Kathleen Sebelius said:
Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health. We deeply regret that it happened, and we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent research practices. The conduct exhibited during the study does not represent the values of the US, or our commitment to human dignity and great respect for the people of Guatemala.[10]
President Barack Obama apologized to President Álvaro Colom, who had called these experiments "a crime against humanity".[11]
"It is clear from the language of the report that the U.S. researchers understood the profoundly unethical nature of the study. In fact the Guatemalan syphilis study was being carried out just as the “Doctors’ Trial” was unfolding at Nuremberg (December 1946 – August 1947), when 23 German physicians stood trial for participating in Nazi programs to euthanize or medically experiment on concentration camp prisoners."[12]
The U.S. government asked the Institute of Medicine to conduct a review of these experiments.[1] Separately, the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues was asked to convene a panel of international experts to review the current state of medical research on humans around the world and ensure that such incidents cannot be repeated.[1] The Commission report, Ethically Impossible: STD Research in Guatemala from 1946 to 1948, published in September 2011, concluded that "the Guatemala experiments involved unconscionable basic violations of ethics, even as judged against the researchers' own recognition of the requirements of the medical ethics of the day."[13][14]
Human rights activists have called for subjects' families to be compensated.[3] This is what a responsible and reasonable government does. This is what Japan isn't doing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_syphilis_experiment Nor is it what China is doing. Frankly, that's quite irrelevant to the fact that some very few people are using past atrocity as an excuse to manipulate very many people to hate those who did not commit such atrocities. oh so you speak for the CCP now do you? Seriously china has done jack shit to manipulate it's people into hating japan. They would hate japan regardless. If anything, the CCP wants to TEMPER the hatred for japan, as japan is a huge investment bank that has already invested billions into China. This island squabble is something both sides do not want to participate in. Hatred for a country or people is passed down through family, much like how black racism is passed down in America.
You've never seen how china teaches history have you, according to china the allied nations attacked their north korea and china had to come in an intervene for their freedom, and china was just a smaller under equipped force standing in arms with their communist allies. Even without that it would still easily be animosity, but do you see Jews blaming Germany no they blame nazi's. China does it every day manipulating history keeping topics hidden from the public or changing how they are told, just look how they handle dissidences and their Internet.
On September 19 2012 07:14 Reaper9 wrote:@Enders116 You bring shame to my Taiwanese heritage. This is fucking disgusting. Most are normal humans living their lives out, and then the governments play their little games. Disgusting, DISgusting DISGUSTING. This is a competition for limited resources, but for most people, it's this stupid national pride that clouds all justice and has normal, "sane" people baying out for blood. A wrong in history is NEVER corrected by another wrong! I'd hate to see this cycle of hatred spawn just because a person is of a certain ethnicity or lives on a plot of land. Then you say this. + Show Spoiler +Enders116 Taiwan. September 19 2012 03:28. Posts 177
Some places cannot be saved. They can only be destroyed.
That is...that is why these STUPID wars keep going on.
Speaking of korea again Taiwan native peoples history has had it hard in the past 50 years with mainland Chinese seeking refuge and taking over, and in part is still separate from china due to the korean war.
On September 19 2012 07:17 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:11 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Nor has being born in the United States magically induced me into having a personality that thinks it makes sense to kill hundreds of thousands. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution, as the Japanese have amended theirs. There are still white supremacists in the U.S., but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) You're missing the point. Americans don't deny that the atomic bombs got droppped, nor do you have no knowledge or completely shady knowledge of what happened. I really want to find this clip where Japanese civilians in Tokyo got interviewed on various topics and they were hopelessly clueeless. Its not that the apology is wanted, more the people want them to admit to and acknowledge what happened rather than trying to cover it up. Actually, we have quite a few Americans that insist Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary. (Despite the fact they were not. This is easily provable in historical documents such as U.S. analyses of intelligence intercepts of the Japanese discussing surrender but... our text books don't teach that! They teach that the atomic bombs were considered necessary. Dun Dun Dun!!!!) There are also Americans who don't believe the Holocaust happened. So the Japanese (meaning many of them who apparently appear on Youtube videos) are clueless. This is a reason to riot, burn Toyotas, and take two regional powers to the brink of war? No, it is not. I think you're missing the point. The present day Japanese did not commit atrocities, and the anti-Japanese riots against them are based on racism (e.g. they WOULD commit such atrocities if they COULD).
a military coup detat was attempted when Hirohito tried to make the surrender announcement, it's clear the USA traded Japanese lives instead of a mix of both nations dieing in extended conflict invasion of the mainland esp beach head landing during WWII had projections of 60% mortality, it be hard to justify risking more American lives and still killing many Japanese instead of just killing Japanese and breaking the camels back. Foresight is 20/20 but during wwii the idea of total war reigned over that war, it was a mess as far as military actions the 1st bomb was clearly the right choice for american interest the 2nd bomb maybe have been overboard in some respects but really it's all the US had holding out to make more bombs and giving them time to think about it isn't quite the show of power that would make them surrender. You need to remeber during WWII the Japanese suicided bombed ships to keep them away during the last legs of the war, they shot their own women and children if they tried to seek shelter in american forces, japan put up a very convincing no surrender fight to the last man appearance.
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On September 19 2012 07:13 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:11 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Nor has being born in the United States magically induced me into having a personality that thinks it makes sense to kill hundreds of thousands. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution, as the Japanese have amended theirs. There are still white supremacists in the U.S., but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) You're missing the point. Americans don't deny that the atomic bombs got droppped, nor do you have no knowledge or completely shady knowledge of what happened. I really want to find this clip where Japanese civilians in Tokyo got interviewed on various topics and they were hopelessly clueeless. Its not that the apology is wanted, more the people want them to admit to and acknowledge what happened rather than trying to cover it up. You mean similar to those videos of American civilians where they can't place France on the world map? There's ignorant people everywhere. Anecdotal evidence can always be found... and inevitably refuted.
Matters of geography are totally related to matters rooted this deep in peoples emotions and morales..
What I have to go by is anecdotal experience, from my experience living in Japan, from Japanese friends I've made overseas and from things I've read about textbook revisionism, and from the fact that these crazy nationalist politicians keep getting voted into power and have more say... all this leads to be thinking the general Japanese public are apathetic and intentionally ignorant(?)
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On September 19 2012 07:09 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:59 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:56 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:50 MisterFred wrote:Doomwish, you are exactly right. On September 19 2012 06:39 Azarkon wrote:
Do you vote? Do you pay taxes? Do you go to work everyday? Do you put your children through public schools? Do you buy grocery at your nearby Walmart? Do you...?
Every act that you do is understandable only through the lens of your participation in the society around you. No excuses that you give about individualism can possibly save you when the sum of the actions of your society come back to haunt you. Should China go to war with the US tomorrow, it won't matter one bit whether you are personally responsible for the war. You will live and die by your society's actions - all the same. Yes. Yes. No. No. No. I can control my own actions. This is all I can do (technically, I can only control my own thought, but luckily as a practical matter I have more freedom than that*). What you fail to realize is that nationality is a social construct. It is as easy to say that I am part of the society that invaded China in the 1930s and committed various atrocities because I am part of humanity. You have crafted a group of people with inclusions and exclusions that don't make a ton of sense unless they get ridiculously legalistic. It may be that I live and die by my society's actions. That does not make me responsible for them. That does not make the actions of the Chinese rioters any less foolish & racist. *Basic stoicism. A society is an interdependent structure, in which each participant plays a role. Whether you admit to this or not, that is what it is. Responsibility in the context of societal acts are borne by all members of said society. It is only possible to escape that responsibility if you detach yourself from the society altogether, or otherwise actively work against it. The hatred between China and Japan is not between individuals. It is between countries. A country is a social construct, yes, but just because it is a social construct does not make it less tangible. Conflicts and grudges between countries have ever lasted across generations. Saying that this is foolish is to not understand humanity to begin with. Can a country think? Can a country hate? What does it mean to hate another country? It sounds to me you're getting lost in the abstractions and using them in ways they weren't designed to be used. "Saying that this is foolish is to not understand humanity to begin with." What's your reasoning? Should we believe it just because it sounds pithy or because you said so? No, you should believe it because it is all around you. It is how humans behave, whether you like it or not. Argumentum ad populum. Just because you see it a lot doesn't make it something innate in humans. You can reason your way out of nationalism by asking the questions in my previous post: Can a country think? Can a country hate? What does it mean to hate another country? There's a reason nationalism is considered an "infantile disease".
Can a country think? Yes.
Can a country hate? Yes.
What does it mean to hate another country? See: China and Japan.
Nationalism is considered an infantile disease by whom?
The way I see it, nationalism is simply an extension of tribalism, which has been with humanity from the very beginning.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 07:18 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:58 czylu wrote:On September 19 2012 06:54 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:39 redviper wrote:People aren't asking for an apology from a specific person. They are asking an apology from an institution, in this case the government of Japan. As an example, Obama had literally nothing to do with the syphilis experiments in Guatemala. But he, as a representative of the US government, apologized for it. In October 2010, the U.S. government formally apologized and announced that there was no statute of limitations for the violation of human rights in that medical research.[8][9] In a joint statement, Hillary Clinton and Kathleen Sebelius said:
Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health. We deeply regret that it happened, and we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent research practices. The conduct exhibited during the study does not represent the values of the US, or our commitment to human dignity and great respect for the people of Guatemala.[10]
President Barack Obama apologized to President Álvaro Colom, who had called these experiments "a crime against humanity".[11]
"It is clear from the language of the report that the U.S. researchers understood the profoundly unethical nature of the study. In fact the Guatemalan syphilis study was being carried out just as the “Doctors’ Trial” was unfolding at Nuremberg (December 1946 – August 1947), when 23 German physicians stood trial for participating in Nazi programs to euthanize or medically experiment on concentration camp prisoners."[12]
The U.S. government asked the Institute of Medicine to conduct a review of these experiments.[1] Separately, the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues was asked to convene a panel of international experts to review the current state of medical research on humans around the world and ensure that such incidents cannot be repeated.[1] The Commission report, Ethically Impossible: STD Research in Guatemala from 1946 to 1948, published in September 2011, concluded that "the Guatemala experiments involved unconscionable basic violations of ethics, even as judged against the researchers' own recognition of the requirements of the medical ethics of the day."[13][14]
Human rights activists have called for subjects' families to be compensated.[3] This is what a responsible and reasonable government does. This is what Japan isn't doing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_syphilis_experiment Nor is it what China is doing. Frankly, that's quite irrelevant to the fact that some very few people are using past atrocity as an excuse to manipulate very many people to hate those who did not commit such atrocities. oh so you speak for the CCP now do you? Seriously china has done jack shit to manipulate it's people into hating japan. They would hate japan regardless. If anything, the CCP wants to TEMPER the hatred for japan, as japan is a huge investment bank that has already invested billions into China. This island squabble is something both sides do not want to participate in. Hatred for a country or people is passed down through family, much like how black racism is passed down in America. You've never seen how china teaches history have you, according to china the allied nations attacked their north korea and china had to come in an intervene for their freedom, and china was just a smaller under equipped force standing in arms with their communist allies. Even without that it would still easily be animosity, but do you see Jews blaming Germany no they blame nazi's. China does it every day manipulating history keeping topics hidden from the public or changing how they are told, just look how they handle dissidences and their Internet.
This is exactly the version my dad (grew up in China) tells, lmao. He seems quite proud that they defeated the Americans at Yalu River. (Again, nationalism = infantile disease)
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its astonishing how strong the chinese people's willpower to fight for their country is.
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On September 19 2012 07:15 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:09 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 07:04 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 07:00 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:47 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:44 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:41 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:
[quote]
What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives. Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse. You've given opinions and presented them as facts. I ignored those specifics for a reason - because it is both off-topic and inflammatory. You've basically accused the US of committing war crimes in the space of a few sentences. I'm not going to address that except to say that it is off topic. Open another thread if you want to talk about whether the bombing of Japan during war-time was justified. Funny. I thought you were the one who brought up the atomic bombings of Japan and framed them like they were the correct decision at the time. I merely pointed out how immoral they were and how your argument--that we ought to use it as precedent and punish a country for the actions of a few--is flawed. That's your own interpretation once again. I brought them up to argue that individuals and societies are never independent. The actions of a few Japanese leaders during WW 2 caused their entire society to suffer the consequences. This is not a fluke. This is the way it has always been throughout history. Individuals are not islands onto themselves. They are participants in society, and when those societies go to war, whether the individual personally agrees with the war has no bearing whatsoever on whether he is affected by it. You are confusing being affected with being responsible & guilty. Yes, every Japanese person today is affected, at least in some small way, by the wars of the old Imperial government. This is obvious. But it does not follow that they should be accountable for those wars. It is foolish for the Chinese to blame today's Japanese for the atrocities of World War II. Doing so is racist in that it applies to a race (socially constructed - in this case, Japanese) a condition (aggressive militarism) inherent to the race. The rioters are advocating punishing the current generation for the sins of their parents while assuming they are ideologically identical on account of race. That is wrong, and for you to consider it reasonable is sad. That may be the way things ARE - but that does not mean you are right. It merely adds you to the vast ranks of those who are wrong. The classic failing of idealism is to fail to see reality, and to pretend that ideals are a valid replacement. Thus they are doomed to never have their hopes for the world fulfilled. Hey look, most people out there are wrong. I should be wrong, too! (That way I don't look foolish.) <---- this is what you are advocating in your last post. Who ever has their hopes for the world fulfilled? + Show Spoiler + I do see reality, thank you. I know the motivations that drive people. I know most people will never understand how they are manipulated. This does not mean I should reject reason and morality. Nor should I become a hermit and refuse to teach. Of course I have no influence over the China-Japan tensions. Neither do you. Wow. Shocker. Revelations. I do have the eyes of a few individuals on this forum, and I hope some of the readers have learned a thing or two. No one learns anything from moral naivete. Your entire argument was a strawman to begin with. Do you really think the Chinese are protesting / rioting because they believe the current generation of Japanese are responsible for what happened in World War II? Of course not. Yet that has been your thrust all along. I'm going to put it simply - the Chinese are protesting / rioting because they believe the Diaoyu / Senkaku islands are ill gotten territory, territory that Japan - the country - took by force during a time of weakness from China. Thus, they believe they are justified to take back the territory by force. They are rioting against Japanese property owners because they want to hurt Japan - the country, and in so doing make a statement to the leaders of Japan - the country - that their behavior is not going to be tolerated. These issues have nothing to do with arcane notions of moral responsibility / individual vs. collective guilt as they are taught in philosophy. They are grounded in a concrete reality in which China and Japan - the countries - are fundamentally antagonistic towards each other.
Notions of moral responsibility / individual vs. collective guilt are never arcane, and are always grounded in concrete reality.
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EPT
