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On September 19 2012 06:44 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:41 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives. Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse. You've given opinions and presented them as facts. I ignored those specifics for a reason - because it is both off-topic and inflammatory. You've basically accused the US of committing war crimes in the space of a few sentences. I'm not going to address that except to say that it is off topic. Open another thread if you want to talk about whether the bombing of Japan during war-time was justified. Funny. I thought you were the one who brought up the atomic bombings of Japan and framed them like they were the correct decision at the time. I merely pointed out how immoral they were and how your argument--that we ought to use it as precedent and punish a country for the actions of a few--is flawed.
That's your own interpretation once again. I brought them up to argue that individuals and societies are never independent. The actions of a few Japanese leaders during WW 2 caused their entire society to suffer the consequences. This is not a fluke. This is the way it has always been throughout history.
Individuals are not islands onto themselves. They are participants in society, and when those societies go to war, whether the individual personally agrees with the war has no bearing whatsoever on whether he is affected by it.
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On September 19 2012 06:45 Doomwish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:42 Xpace wrote:On September 19 2012 06:18 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag I wouldn't say so. My Chinese coworker (mid 30s) lost four uncles. Even they are not personally involved (plenty still did, don't forget people as young as 7 participated, and younger ones sure would remember also), they were directly and indirectly affected. My grandfather on my Mom's side was in the Europe theater, and he would not use any product made in Germany to this day. I'm sure it's similar in China. Edit: add original text since a few people posted in between *rolls eyes* Where did I say people shouldn't be upset about tragedies that happened to them. But you know what? Your Chinese co-worker is wrong if they hate Japanese in general. Take a Japanese person off the street - they did not kill those uncles. Seeking to punish children for the crimes of their parents is wrong. Hating people who commit war crimes is not wrong. Hating and punishing others for what they didn't do is wrong. Taking Responsibility"Punish" is a very strong word. You will never be put in a spot where you'd have to apologize for the atomic bombs because you weren't born yet. You're absolutely, 100% correct. But if I asked you "do you think dropping the bomb was the right thing to do?" You'd say no. You'd say no to Unit 731. You'd say no to comfort women. You'd say no to the Rape of Nanking. No. None of those things can ever, ever be justified. And you know why you can say these things? Because you're educated about them. The atomic bombs were not omitted in our text books. We learned about them. We acknowledged the event. I will never go around yelling "those Japs attacked us at Pearl Harbor!" Imagine that I did that, and when someone goes "and you dropped the atomic bombs on them, and firebombed Tokyo" - that I go and say "wait, what? that shit didn't happen, that's Japanese propaganda!!!" Do you at least understand now? I wouldn't say it was wrong to drop the a bombs on Japan. It's funny how you never hear about the firebombings of Tokyo where MANY more were killed. It was believed among the american military leadership at the time that Japan would not surrender until millions more were killed, less blood was shed by using those bombs then there would have been on both sides. And it worked...it stopped the war.
Again, wrong or right isn't the issue.
I will never, ever deny that the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing millions, including civilians.
The Japanese are crying about it even to this day, yet when you ask them about the Rape of Nanking, they say it's a lie, or that it's propaganda.*
* Not all Japanese think this way, but it's generally downplayed, if not outright denied by the masses, whereas every single German can give you details about the Nazis, Auschwitz, and the number of Jewish casualties.
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Doomwish, you are exactly right.
On September 19 2012 06:39 Azarkon wrote:
Do you vote? Do you pay taxes? Do you go to work everyday? Do you put your children through public schools? Do you buy grocery at your nearby Walmart? Do you...?
Every act that you do is understandable only through the lens of your participation in the society around you. No excuses that you give about individualism can possibly save you when the sum of the actions of your society come back to haunt you. Should China go to war with the US tomorrow, it won't matter one bit whether you are personally responsible for the war. You will live and die by your society's actions - all the same.
Yes. Yes. No. No. No.
I can control my own actions. This is all I can do (technically, I can only control my own thought, but luckily as a practical matter I have more freedom than that*). What you fail to realize is that nationality is a social construct. It is as easy to say that I am part of the society that invaded China in the 1930s and committed various atrocities because I am part of humanity. You have crafted a group of people with inclusions and exclusions that don't make a ton of sense unless they get ridiculously legalistic.
It may be that I live and die by my society's actions. That does not make me responsible for them. That does not make the actions of the Chinese rioters any less foolish & racist.
*Basic stoicism.
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On September 19 2012 06:28 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:23 jinorazi wrote:On September 19 2012 05:03 Orek wrote:On September 19 2012 04:16 Cattlecruiser wrote:
Japanese government wants DokDo (Liancourt Rocks) from Korea also. I understand that they feel the pressure from natural disasters to claim as much of the fishing rights and land outside of the sinking island, but they are going about the geopolitics in the worst way.
Korea and China have helped Japan during the Tsunami disaster in 2011 with relief aid and harboring refugees. Have fun on your sinking ticking time bomb of an island.
PS The Japanese civilization has always looked to gain territoriality since the unification of power under Toyotomi Hideyoshi and have done many atrocious experiments, war crimes, and acts against humanity. It feels like poetic justice that their nation is literally sinking. On September 18 2012 18:27 Orek wrote:On September 18 2012 17:22 Womwomwom wrote:On September 18 2012 17:18 Tal wrote:On September 18 2012 17:09 sharkie wrote:
Why is there so much hate for Japan?
Yes, they have committed atrocious things. But what country in the world has not? Japan's Rapes and Germany's Holocaust are "the most horrible" ones because they have lost the most recent war.
But we are talking about a country here who has SPENT BILLIONS of dollars supporting other countries in need. You think without Japan Southeast Asia would be as prosperous as it is today? It wouldn't be.
Southeast Asia loves to hate on Japan, yet they still have welcomed and KEEP welcoming Japan's money.
And no, they not only help with money but also by being helpful. How many nature catastrophes did we have in the last 10 years? Tons, from tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes. And which country has sent the most help in MONEY, RESOURCES and WORKERS in the world? Yes, it is Japan.
Just ask New Zealand. When the big earthquake happened in Japan, most helpers were still in New Zealand because they suffered huge damage from a earthquake prior to the big one.
Yes Japan's past is shameful, I feel huge remorse and the huge majority of Japan feels the same. So I ask again, why is there so much hate for Japan? Show me another country whose atrocities match Japan's. It's not unusual to support the area next to you who you can sell stuff to. Look at the rest of the worlds huge aid budgets. Japan isn't an outlier in that field. Why is there so much hate for Japan? Because Japan's remorse isn't demonstrated. It's not in its politics, or its culture. There are no monuments, except to the war criminals. That's why China and Korea keep so much hate - and when something like these islands comes up, throwing up the spectre of imperialism, they see it as a sign nothing has changed. Dokdo Island is a non-issue. If South Korea wants them, they bring it to the ICJ and Japan will lose. They haven't done this despite the fact Japan has submitted the case three times so far. In the case of China, I don't even think their claims exist within modern maritime law (which is also their justification for their hilarious boundaries in the South China Sea). No one wants to settle any of these issues so the status quo keeps spinning around. Treaty of San Francisco CHAPTER II TERRITORY U.S. Draft made on March 19, 1947 Article 4 Japan hereby renounces all rights and titles to Korea and all minor offshore Korean islands, including Quelpart Island, Port Hamilton, Dagelet Island (Utsuryo) Island and Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima).Reviced U.S.-U.K. Draft made on June 14, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan, recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet MY EDIT: Liancourt Rocks=Dokdo=Takeshima is removed from the list of islands that Japan has to renouce all right, title and claim to. Requests From Korea July 19, 1951 1.My Government requests that the word "renounces" in Paragraph a, Article Number 2, should be replaced by "confirms that it renounced on August 9,1945, all right, title and claim to Korea and the islands which were part of Korea prior to its annexation by Japan, including the island Quelpart, Port Hamilton, Dagelet, Dokdo and Parangdo." Rusk Documents August 10, 1951 As regards the island of Dokdo, otherwise known as Takeshima or Liancourt Rocks, this normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea. Final text of the treaty on September 8, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet. MY EDIT: Dok......do? Take.....shima? Liancourt.....Rocks? Sources: Draft Treaty of Peace With JapanIndex:Rusk note of 1951Let's just go to ICJ if Korea is so sure of winning the case ^^. Korean government doesn't want to because they know they would lose. Well, this was a bit off-topic as this thread is about anti-Japan protest in China, but in the context of territorial dispute in the region, maybe relevant enough. takeshima/dokdo not part of korea according to what record? the records support dokdo as korea's territory before annexation and japan's only claim is that to return the island wasnt included in the treaty. and if that claim somehow stands, no fucking doubt japan-korea relations will be zero because you're taking again what was korea's through "legal" means, its like a robber suing the homeowner because he got hurt while breaking in(which has happened in us court). and korea has nothing to gain going to icj, it only validates japan's claim, korea has alot to lose and nothing to gain meanwhile its win-win for japan. i did research on this because i was curious and i say it without bias being korean. there are hazy maps that koreans say this proves korea's claim meanwhile japan refute korea's claim because the island names and position not matching but yet japan's evidence shows both, korea's and japan's and korea's maps show korea's, dokdo is visible from ulleungdo on a clear day just so you know, which japan claimed it isn't visible...yet there is a picture that proves it. Japanese government argues that there was no Korean control over the island. With all the name mix up and hazy maps, evidence is ambiguous at best. That's one thing. Another is the legal process I posted with plenty of sources above. Korea lost its sovereignty in 1910 when Japan annexed the country, which by the way was internationally recognized at the time by countries like UK=Japanese ally back then, so I wonder if it really matters at all who had sovereignty over island prior to it. Korea was a part of Japan up until 1945. So, which part of "Japan" is given up holds upmost importance. The drafting process clealy omits Dokdo specifically. It's not like Dokdo had never been mentioned in the process. And yes, Korea probably won't gain much from going to ICJ. Law-abiding country of Japan would not take the island by force. If that ever happens, I guarantee here that I harshly criticize Japanese government as much as I believe Dokdo/Takeshima is Japanese territory. Once barbaric, yet now peace-loving country of Japan (believe it or not) should only seek to regain control of the island through the means of legal action/peaceful dialogue, not force.
annexation as legitimate claim will not sit well with any korean and in no way in hell they would give it up for that reason. it left a bad taste in our mouth, no one liked it and no one ever will enjoy submitting to another country by force. japan is saying they took it by force almost a century ago, therefore it is still there since it was never included in sf treaty, and korea is illegally holding it. if that isn't to piss koreans off, i'm not sure what its suppose to achieve. koreans obvious believe dokdo is korean island pre-annexation, as ulleungdo is. to say "korea was japan for 50 years, therefore any land dispute prior to that does not matter" is just rubbing it in korean's face.
on a similar note: the japanese government also claims (specifically, some government officials) there is no evidence of comfort women...when there is. korea is taking japan to icj for war crimes on sexual slavery.
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On September 19 2012 06:35 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:33 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason. Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point. If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions. If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so. That line of thinking doesn't work when you talking about countries, where hundreds of years is considered recent though. Your reasoning might work but that's not how people think or act, so it doesn't really matter.
HAH, so I should be a fool because everyone else is. Thank you no, I am not a lemming.
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On September 19 2012 06:50 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:45 Doomwish wrote:On September 19 2012 06:42 Xpace wrote:On September 19 2012 06:18 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag I wouldn't say so. My Chinese coworker (mid 30s) lost four uncles. Even they are not personally involved (plenty still did, don't forget people as young as 7 participated, and younger ones sure would remember also), they were directly and indirectly affected. My grandfather on my Mom's side was in the Europe theater, and he would not use any product made in Germany to this day. I'm sure it's similar in China. Edit: add original text since a few people posted in between *rolls eyes* Where did I say people shouldn't be upset about tragedies that happened to them. But you know what? Your Chinese co-worker is wrong if they hate Japanese in general. Take a Japanese person off the street - they did not kill those uncles. Seeking to punish children for the crimes of their parents is wrong. Hating people who commit war crimes is not wrong. Hating and punishing others for what they didn't do is wrong. Taking Responsibility"Punish" is a very strong word. You will never be put in a spot where you'd have to apologize for the atomic bombs because you weren't born yet. You're absolutely, 100% correct. But if I asked you "do you think dropping the bomb was the right thing to do?" You'd say no. You'd say no to Unit 731. You'd say no to comfort women. You'd say no to the Rape of Nanking. No. None of those things can ever, ever be justified. And you know why you can say these things? Because you're educated about them. The atomic bombs were not omitted in our text books. We learned about them. We acknowledged the event. I will never go around yelling "those Japs attacked us at Pearl Harbor!" Imagine that I did that, and when someone goes "and you dropped the atomic bombs on them, and firebombed Tokyo" - that I go and say "wait, what? that shit didn't happen, that's Japanese propaganda!!!" Do you at least understand now? I wouldn't say it was wrong to drop the a bombs on Japan. It's funny how you never hear about the firebombings of Tokyo where MANY more were killed. It was believed among the american military leadership at the time that Japan would not surrender until millions more were killed, less blood was shed by using those bombs then there would have been on both sides. And it worked...it stopped the war. Again, wrong or right isn't the issue. I will never, ever deny that the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing millions, including civilians. The Japanese are crying about it even to this day, yet when you ask them about the Rape of Nanking, they say it's a lie, or that it's propaganda.* * Not all Japanese think this way, but it's generally downplayed, if not outright denied by the masses.
It can't be help. Don't blame the populaton, blame the government instead. They have "written" their own history and thought it to the masses. Many people are aware of its existance, but are generally too afraid to speak up. I just find that the ordinary Japanese shouldn't be accounted for, but rather focus on the likes of Mr Ishihara and his delusional fans.
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On September 19 2012 06:39 redviper wrote:People aren't asking for an apology from a specific person. They are asking an apology from an institution, in this case the government of Japan. As an example, Obama had literally nothing to do with the syphilis experiments in Guatemala. But he, as a representative of the US government, apologized for it. Show nested quote +In October 2010, the U.S. government formally apologized and announced that there was no statute of limitations for the violation of human rights in that medical research.[8][9] In a joint statement, Hillary Clinton and Kathleen Sebelius said:
Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health. We deeply regret that it happened, and we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent research practices. The conduct exhibited during the study does not represent the values of the US, or our commitment to human dignity and great respect for the people of Guatemala.[10]
President Barack Obama apologized to President Álvaro Colom, who had called these experiments "a crime against humanity".[11]
"It is clear from the language of the report that the U.S. researchers understood the profoundly unethical nature of the study. In fact the Guatemalan syphilis study was being carried out just as the “Doctors’ Trial” was unfolding at Nuremberg (December 1946 – August 1947), when 23 German physicians stood trial for participating in Nazi programs to euthanize or medically experiment on concentration camp prisoners."[12]
The U.S. government asked the Institute of Medicine to conduct a review of these experiments.[1] Separately, the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues was asked to convene a panel of international experts to review the current state of medical research on humans around the world and ensure that such incidents cannot be repeated.[1] The Commission report, Ethically Impossible: STD Research in Guatemala from 1946 to 1948, published in September 2011, concluded that "the Guatemala experiments involved unconscionable basic violations of ethics, even as judged against the researchers' own recognition of the requirements of the medical ethics of the day."[13][14]
Human rights activists have called for subjects' families to be compensated.[3] This is what a responsible and reasonable government does. This is what Japan isn't doing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_syphilis_experiment
Nor is it what China is doing. Frankly, that's quite irrelevant to the fact that some very few people are using past atrocity as an excuse to manipulate very many people to hate those who did not commit such atrocities.
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On September 19 2012 06:52 EchoZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:50 Xpace wrote:On September 19 2012 06:45 Doomwish wrote:On September 19 2012 06:42 Xpace wrote:On September 19 2012 06:18 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag I wouldn't say so. My Chinese coworker (mid 30s) lost four uncles. Even they are not personally involved (plenty still did, don't forget people as young as 7 participated, and younger ones sure would remember also), they were directly and indirectly affected. My grandfather on my Mom's side was in the Europe theater, and he would not use any product made in Germany to this day. I'm sure it's similar in China. Edit: add original text since a few people posted in between *rolls eyes* Where did I say people shouldn't be upset about tragedies that happened to them. But you know what? Your Chinese co-worker is wrong if they hate Japanese in general. Take a Japanese person off the street - they did not kill those uncles. Seeking to punish children for the crimes of their parents is wrong. Hating people who commit war crimes is not wrong. Hating and punishing others for what they didn't do is wrong. Taking Responsibility"Punish" is a very strong word. You will never be put in a spot where you'd have to apologize for the atomic bombs because you weren't born yet. You're absolutely, 100% correct. But if I asked you "do you think dropping the bomb was the right thing to do?" You'd say no. You'd say no to Unit 731. You'd say no to comfort women. You'd say no to the Rape of Nanking. No. None of those things can ever, ever be justified. And you know why you can say these things? Because you're educated about them. The atomic bombs were not omitted in our text books. We learned about them. We acknowledged the event. I will never go around yelling "those Japs attacked us at Pearl Harbor!" Imagine that I did that, and when someone goes "and you dropped the atomic bombs on them, and firebombed Tokyo" - that I go and say "wait, what? that shit didn't happen, that's Japanese propaganda!!!" Do you at least understand now? I wouldn't say it was wrong to drop the a bombs on Japan. It's funny how you never hear about the firebombings of Tokyo where MANY more were killed. It was believed among the american military leadership at the time that Japan would not surrender until millions more were killed, less blood was shed by using those bombs then there would have been on both sides. And it worked...it stopped the war. Again, wrong or right isn't the issue. I will never, ever deny that the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing millions, including civilians. The Japanese are crying about it even to this day, yet when you ask them about the Rape of Nanking, they say it's a lie, or that it's propaganda.* * Not all Japanese think this way, but it's generally downplayed, if not outright denied by the masses. It can't be help. Don't blame the populaton, blame the government instead. They have "written" their own history and thought it to the masses. Many people are aware of its existance, but are generally too afraid to speak up. I just find that the ordinary Japanese shouldn't be accounted for, but rather focus on the likes of Mr Ishihara and his delusional fans.
I never blamed the people, and I did blame the governments. One of my previous posts in this topic was about government officials (including the Emperor) showing regret and remorse. They are responsible for educating their people, and they have failed thus far.
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On September 19 2012 06:50 MisterFred wrote:Doomwish, you are exactly right. Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:39 Azarkon wrote:
Do you vote? Do you pay taxes? Do you go to work everyday? Do you put your children through public schools? Do you buy grocery at your nearby Walmart? Do you...?
Every act that you do is understandable only through the lens of your participation in the society around you. No excuses that you give about individualism can possibly save you when the sum of the actions of your society come back to haunt you. Should China go to war with the US tomorrow, it won't matter one bit whether you are personally responsible for the war. You will live and die by your society's actions - all the same. Yes. Yes. No. No. No. I can control my own actions. This is all I can do (technically, I can only control my own thought, but luckily as a practical matter I have more freedom than that*). What you fail to realize is that nationality is a social construct. It is as easy to say that I am part of the society that invaded China in the 1930s and committed various atrocities because I am part of humanity. You have crafted a group of people with inclusions and exclusions that don't make a ton of sense unless they get ridiculously legalistic. It may be that I live and die by my society's actions. That does not make me responsible for them. That does not make the actions of the Chinese rioters any less foolish & racist. *Basic stoicism.
A society is an interdependent structure, in which each participant plays a role. Whether you admit to this or not, that is what it is. Responsibility in the context of societal acts are borne by all members of said society. It is only possible to escape that responsibility if you detach yourself from the society altogether, or otherwise actively work against it.
The hatred between China and Japan is not between individuals. It is between countries. A country is a social construct, yes, but just because it is a social construct does not make it less tangible. Conflicts and grudges between countries have ever lasted across generations. Saying that this is foolish is to not understand humanity to begin with.
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Can we agree that the most ridiculous thing of this all is the hate on the ground because of this?
Nobody deserves to have their car busted because of the country it was made in.
Corporations don't deserve to have their factories shut down because of the pissing contests of corrupt governments.
I think it's crazy how many mindless drones will attack, murder, and die for their government.
Here are the people at fault in these island disputes:
- The Japanese government for being a pitiful representation of their own people and doing unnecessary actions that provoke other country leaders.
- The Chinese government for encouraging violence against Japan.
- The Korean government for indoctrinating students with anti-Japanese hatred from childhood.
- Anyone in any of these countries that perpetuates this hatred and blindly follows their corrupt government.
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On September 19 2012 06:54 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:52 EchoZ wrote:On September 19 2012 06:50 Xpace wrote:On September 19 2012 06:45 Doomwish wrote:On September 19 2012 06:42 Xpace wrote:On September 19 2012 06:18 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag I wouldn't say so. My Chinese coworker (mid 30s) lost four uncles. Even they are not personally involved (plenty still did, don't forget people as young as 7 participated, and younger ones sure would remember also), they were directly and indirectly affected. My grandfather on my Mom's side was in the Europe theater, and he would not use any product made in Germany to this day. I'm sure it's similar in China. Edit: add original text since a few people posted in between *rolls eyes* Where did I say people shouldn't be upset about tragedies that happened to them. But you know what? Your Chinese co-worker is wrong if they hate Japanese in general. Take a Japanese person off the street - they did not kill those uncles. Seeking to punish children for the crimes of their parents is wrong. Hating people who commit war crimes is not wrong. Hating and punishing others for what they didn't do is wrong. Taking Responsibility"Punish" is a very strong word. You will never be put in a spot where you'd have to apologize for the atomic bombs because you weren't born yet. You're absolutely, 100% correct. But if I asked you "do you think dropping the bomb was the right thing to do?" You'd say no. You'd say no to Unit 731. You'd say no to comfort women. You'd say no to the Rape of Nanking. No. None of those things can ever, ever be justified. And you know why you can say these things? Because you're educated about them. The atomic bombs were not omitted in our text books. We learned about them. We acknowledged the event. I will never go around yelling "those Japs attacked us at Pearl Harbor!" Imagine that I did that, and when someone goes "and you dropped the atomic bombs on them, and firebombed Tokyo" - that I go and say "wait, what? that shit didn't happen, that's Japanese propaganda!!!" Do you at least understand now? I wouldn't say it was wrong to drop the a bombs on Japan. It's funny how you never hear about the firebombings of Tokyo where MANY more were killed. It was believed among the american military leadership at the time that Japan would not surrender until millions more were killed, less blood was shed by using those bombs then there would have been on both sides. And it worked...it stopped the war. Again, wrong or right isn't the issue. I will never, ever deny that the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing millions, including civilians. The Japanese are crying about it even to this day, yet when you ask them about the Rape of Nanking, they say it's a lie, or that it's propaganda.* * Not all Japanese think this way, but it's generally downplayed, if not outright denied by the masses. It can't be help. Don't blame the populaton, blame the government instead. They have "written" their own history and thought it to the masses. Many people are aware of its existance, but are generally too afraid to speak up. I just find that the ordinary Japanese shouldn't be accounted for, but rather focus on the likes of Mr Ishihara and his delusional fans. I never blamed the people, and I did blame the governments. One of my previous posts in this topic was about government officials (including the Emperor) showing regret and remorse. They are responsible for educating their people, and they have failed thus far.
The one big problem is, at this rate, it would be the ordinary joes that are stuck in the crossfire. It isn't helping ANYONE except the politicians to push their case now....
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On September 19 2012 06:54 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:39 redviper wrote:People aren't asking for an apology from a specific person. They are asking an apology from an institution, in this case the government of Japan. As an example, Obama had literally nothing to do with the syphilis experiments in Guatemala. But he, as a representative of the US government, apologized for it. In October 2010, the U.S. government formally apologized and announced that there was no statute of limitations for the violation of human rights in that medical research.[8][9] In a joint statement, Hillary Clinton and Kathleen Sebelius said:
Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health. We deeply regret that it happened, and we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent research practices. The conduct exhibited during the study does not represent the values of the US, or our commitment to human dignity and great respect for the people of Guatemala.[10]
President Barack Obama apologized to President Álvaro Colom, who had called these experiments "a crime against humanity".[11]
"It is clear from the language of the report that the U.S. researchers understood the profoundly unethical nature of the study. In fact the Guatemalan syphilis study was being carried out just as the “Doctors’ Trial” was unfolding at Nuremberg (December 1946 – August 1947), when 23 German physicians stood trial for participating in Nazi programs to euthanize or medically experiment on concentration camp prisoners."[12]
The U.S. government asked the Institute of Medicine to conduct a review of these experiments.[1] Separately, the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues was asked to convene a panel of international experts to review the current state of medical research on humans around the world and ensure that such incidents cannot be repeated.[1] The Commission report, Ethically Impossible: STD Research in Guatemala from 1946 to 1948, published in September 2011, concluded that "the Guatemala experiments involved unconscionable basic violations of ethics, even as judged against the researchers' own recognition of the requirements of the medical ethics of the day."[13][14]
Human rights activists have called for subjects' families to be compensated.[3] This is what a responsible and reasonable government does. This is what Japan isn't doing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_syphilis_experiment Nor is it what China is doing. Frankly, that's quite irrelevant to the fact that some very few people are using past atrocity as an excuse to manipulate very many people to hate those who did not commit such atrocities.
oh so you speak for the CCP now do you? Seriously china has done jack shit to manipulate it's people into hating japan. They would hate japan regardless. If anything, the CCP wants to TEMPER the hatred for japan, as japan is a huge investment bank that has already invested billions into China. This island squabble is something both sides do not want to participate in.
Hatred for a country or people is passed down through family, much like how black racism is passed down in America.
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On September 19 2012 06:52 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:35 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:33 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason. Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point. If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions. If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so. That line of thinking doesn't work when you talking about countries, where hundreds of years is considered recent though. Your reasoning might work but that's not how people think or act, so it doesn't really matter. HAH, so I should be a fool because everyone else is. Thank you no, I am not a lemming.
Everybody is a fool and you are the only sage. Congratulations.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:56 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:50 MisterFred wrote:Doomwish, you are exactly right. On September 19 2012 06:39 Azarkon wrote:
Do you vote? Do you pay taxes? Do you go to work everyday? Do you put your children through public schools? Do you buy grocery at your nearby Walmart? Do you...?
Every act that you do is understandable only through the lens of your participation in the society around you. No excuses that you give about individualism can possibly save you when the sum of the actions of your society come back to haunt you. Should China go to war with the US tomorrow, it won't matter one bit whether you are personally responsible for the war. You will live and die by your society's actions - all the same. Yes. Yes. No. No. No. I can control my own actions. This is all I can do (technically, I can only control my own thought, but luckily as a practical matter I have more freedom than that*). What you fail to realize is that nationality is a social construct. It is as easy to say that I am part of the society that invaded China in the 1930s and committed various atrocities because I am part of humanity. You have crafted a group of people with inclusions and exclusions that don't make a ton of sense unless they get ridiculously legalistic. It may be that I live and die by my society's actions. That does not make me responsible for them. That does not make the actions of the Chinese rioters any less foolish & racist. *Basic stoicism. A society is an interdependent structure, in which each participant plays a role. Whether you admit to this or not, that is what it is. Responsibility in the context of societal acts are borne by all members of said society. It is only possible to escape that responsibility if you detach yourself from the society altogether, or otherwise actively work against it. The hatred between China and Japan is not between individuals. It is between countries. A country is a social construct, yes, but just because it is a social construct does not make it less tangible. Conflicts and grudges between countries have ever lasted across generations. Saying that this is foolish is to not understand humanity to begin with.
Can a country think? Can a country hate? What does it mean to hate another country? It sounds to me you're getting lost in the abstractions and using them in ways they weren't designed to be used.
"Saying that this is foolish is to not understand humanity to begin with." What's your reasoning? Should we believe it just because it sounds pithy or because you said so?
On September 19 2012 06:58 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:52 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:35 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:33 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason. Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point. If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions. If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so. That line of thinking doesn't work when you talking about countries, where hundreds of years is considered recent though. Your reasoning might work but that's not how people think or act, so it doesn't really matter. HAH, so I should be a fool because everyone else is. Thank you no, I am not a lemming. Everybody is a fool and you are the only sage. Congratulations.
Ironic since you are trying to sound like a sage yourself.
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On September 19 2012 06:20 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:15 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:12 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:03 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On September 19 2012 05:49 xsevR wrote:
The Chinese government is just glad to have the people angry at someone else... Just for reference the Tianemen Square massacre was a whole lot more recent than any Japanese/Chinese conflict. To this day, the government of the People's Republic of China continues to suppress public mention or discussion about the protests. People in China don't much give a damn about Tiananmen. It's YOU people that claim it's the biggest thing since the unification of China. Of all the Chinese students I've spoken to, all of them talk about economic opportunities if they decide to stay (some do not) but nobody's ever mentioned human rights as a reason for wishing to stay around. It's not that they don't know of the event's existence, human rights really isn't seen as a huge problem. Pollution? Yes. Loss of morality? Yes. Economic stratification? Yes. Corruption? Yes. Human rights? Only in your mind. You don't care about young college students like yourself who tried to stand up to the government, but got killed by machine guns and tanks and shit? Please don't generalize your views to everyone living in China. I will agree with you that Chinese people are tolerating the government atm, because they are looking for stability after a century of chaos. Compare Tiananmen Square (where 2000 dead) to Japanese in China (where 20mil+ dead) is just silly... My response was to his hyperbole that Tiananmen square doesn't matter to Chinese people, as if those people died in vain. I wasn't the original poster who compared the two events, so don't put words in my mouth. I will mention that comparing these things in terms of numbers of people dead is quite naive. One was an uprising by the people against the ruling government. Another was a war that lasted over a decade. edit: +1 to what MisterFred is saying. Dregging up things from 70 years ago in order to have the moral high ground on Japanese people who weren't even alive when those things happened is pretty retarded.
Their deeds were noble and they stood up for what they believed in. That's their right to do so. But that's it, that's their decision. You can't speak to many Americans about China without Tiananmen square popping up in the back of their minds. It's ALL THEY KNOW. There are other things that actually affect people from day to day. Can't waste time with Westerners decrying rare instances of human violence by the government in ignorance while there are people getting cancer from pollution and companies (many western ones too) exploiting workers. If you want to help China, get a real cause. When the people can be assured of survival, we'll fight for our rights. It's usually the case.
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On September 19 2012 06:52 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:35 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:33 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:25 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism. The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution... there are still white supremacists, but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK? Of course you don't.* *(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.) Your logic is based on that the culture have changed, I think the whole protest is based on the premise that Japanese culture have NOT changed... Not saying it's correct, but that seems to be the reason. Actually my logic is NOT based on an assumption that the Japanese culture has changed. I believe it has, but that is in fact irrelevant to my point. If Japanese culture hasn't changed - then criticize the Japanese or get mad at them for what they've actually done or beliefs most of them currently hold in this generation. You don't dredge up their parents actions. If your grandfather punches me in the face, I don't drive over to your house and beat the crap out of you (or have the police charge you with assault) because you didn't stop him from doing so. That line of thinking doesn't work when you talking about countries, where hundreds of years is considered recent though. Your reasoning might work but that's not how people think or act, so it doesn't really matter. HAH, so I should be a fool because everyone else is. Thank you no, I am not a lemming.
Not a fool, but naive.
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On September 19 2012 06:47 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:44 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:41 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives. Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse. You've given opinions and presented them as facts. I ignored those specifics for a reason - because it is both off-topic and inflammatory. You've basically accused the US of committing war crimes in the space of a few sentences. I'm not going to address that except to say that it is off topic. Open another thread if you want to talk about whether the bombing of Japan during war-time was justified. Funny. I thought you were the one who brought up the atomic bombings of Japan and framed them like they were the correct decision at the time. I merely pointed out how immoral they were and how your argument--that we ought to use it as precedent and punish a country for the actions of a few--is flawed. That's your own interpretation once again. I brought them up to argue that individuals and societies are never independent. The actions of a few Japanese leaders during WW 2 caused their entire society to suffer the consequences. This is not a fluke. This is the way it has always been throughout history. Individuals are not islands onto themselves. They are participants in society, and when those societies go to war, whether the individual personally agrees with the war has no bearing whatsoever on whether he is affected by it.
You are confusing being affected with being responsible & guilty.
Yes, every Japanese person today is affected, at least in some small way, by the wars of the old Imperial government. This is obvious. But it does not follow that they should be accountable for those wars.
It is foolish for the Chinese to blame today's Japanese for the atrocities of World War II. Doing so is racist in that it applies to a race (socially constructed - in this case, Japanese) a condition (aggressive militarism) inherent to the race. The rioters are advocating punishing the current generation for the sins of their parents while assuming they are ideologically identical on account of race.
That is wrong, and for you to consider it reasonable is sad. That may be the way things ARE - but that does not mean you are right. It merely adds you to the vast ranks of those who are wrong.
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On September 19 2012 06:57 ChThoniC wrote:
Can we agree that the most ridiculous thing of this all is the hate on the ground because of this?
Nobody deserves to have their car busted because of the country it was made in.
Corporations don't deserve to have their factories shut down because of the pissing contests of corrupt governments.
I think it's crazy how many mindless drones will attack, murder, and die for their government.
Here are the people at fault in these island disputes:
- The Japanese government for being a pitiful representation of their own people and doing unnecessary actions that provoke other country leaders.
- The Chinese government for encouraging violence against Japan.
- The Korean government for indoctrinating students with anti-Japanese hatred from childhood.
- Anyone in any of these countries that perpetuates this hatred and blindly follows their corrupt government.
Very well said. I just feel like our government is just adding oil into the fire.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 07:00 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:47 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:44 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:41 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:38 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:34 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:24 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people. What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is. There is nothing ludicrous about it. Just because you disagree with the actions conducted, does not imply that the actions conducted were not justified by the cultural and social condition. Your personal vendetta against the US notwithstanding, the decision reflects perfectly how the world works and has always worked. A man is not an island onto himself. All that you have, all the opportunities and privileges that you were born with, all the material luxuries and 'human rights' that you are granted, are the product of your country - the society into which you were placed. To say that this society is merely individualistic and transient within the space of a single generation is to ridicule the temporal and social processes that have characterized mankind's existence from the very beginning. America would not exist without the near extinction of the Native Americans, which was caused by European colonization. Yet, Americans every generation hereafter have benefited from that extinction, and from the colonial decisions made by their ancestors. To say that Americans today owe nothing to these acts is to engage in self delusion of the highest sort. Individualist ideology has never been enough to explain the workings of the world, nor the conduct of the peoples therein. Individualist morality has never been sufficient for guiding the behaviors of man. Man are fundamentally tribal creatures, whose actions and decisions are made at the level of social units, units that far outlast their lives. Never has so much been said and my argument not addressed at all. Please read my post line-by-line, because I addressed your post, so you should at the least do me the same favour in your reply instead of just writing an ad hominem about my "personal vendetta against the US" then going on a tangent completely unrelated to my argument. I'm pretty sure even an objective person would be disgusted by the murder of civilians en masse. You've given opinions and presented them as facts. I ignored those specifics for a reason - because it is both off-topic and inflammatory. You've basically accused the US of committing war crimes in the space of a few sentences. I'm not going to address that except to say that it is off topic. Open another thread if you want to talk about whether the bombing of Japan during war-time was justified. Funny. I thought you were the one who brought up the atomic bombings of Japan and framed them like they were the correct decision at the time. I merely pointed out how immoral they were and how your argument--that we ought to use it as precedent and punish a country for the actions of a few--is flawed. That's your own interpretation once again. I brought them up to argue that individuals and societies are never independent. The actions of a few Japanese leaders during WW 2 caused their entire society to suffer the consequences. This is not a fluke. This is the way it has always been throughout history. Individuals are not islands onto themselves. They are participants in society, and when those societies go to war, whether the individual personally agrees with the war has no bearing whatsoever on whether he is affected by it. You are confusing being affected with being responsible & guilty. Yes, every Japanese person today is affected, at least in some small way, by the wars of the old Imperial government. This is obvious. But it does not follow that they should be accountable for those wars. It is foolish for the Chinese to blame today's Japanese for the atrocities of World War II. Doing so is racist in that it applies to a race (socially constructed - in this case, Japanese) a condition (aggressive militarism) inherent to the race. The rioters are advocating punishing the current generation for the sins of their parents while assuming they are ideologically identical on account of race. That is wrong, and for you to consider it reasonable is sad. That may be the way things ARE - but that does not mean you are right. It merely adds you to the vast ranks of those who are wrong.
Exactly, you said it much better than I could have. Citing the way things have always been done is never a moral justification.
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On September 19 2012 06:59 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:56 Azarkon wrote:On September 19 2012 06:50 MisterFred wrote:Doomwish, you are exactly right. On September 19 2012 06:39 Azarkon wrote:
Do you vote? Do you pay taxes? Do you go to work everyday? Do you put your children through public schools? Do you buy grocery at your nearby Walmart? Do you...?
Every act that you do is understandable only through the lens of your participation in the society around you. No excuses that you give about individualism can possibly save you when the sum of the actions of your society come back to haunt you. Should China go to war with the US tomorrow, it won't matter one bit whether you are personally responsible for the war. You will live and die by your society's actions - all the same. Yes. Yes. No. No. No. I can control my own actions. This is all I can do (technically, I can only control my own thought, but luckily as a practical matter I have more freedom than that*). What you fail to realize is that nationality is a social construct. It is as easy to say that I am part of the society that invaded China in the 1930s and committed various atrocities because I am part of humanity. You have crafted a group of people with inclusions and exclusions that don't make a ton of sense unless they get ridiculously legalistic. It may be that I live and die by my society's actions. That does not make me responsible for them. That does not make the actions of the Chinese rioters any less foolish & racist. *Basic stoicism. A society is an interdependent structure, in which each participant plays a role. Whether you admit to this or not, that is what it is. Responsibility in the context of societal acts are borne by all members of said society. It is only possible to escape that responsibility if you detach yourself from the society altogether, or otherwise actively work against it. The hatred between China and Japan is not between individuals. It is between countries. A country is a social construct, yes, but just because it is a social construct does not make it less tangible. Conflicts and grudges between countries have ever lasted across generations. Saying that this is foolish is to not understand humanity to begin with. Can a country think? Can a country hate? What does it mean to hate another country? It sounds to me you're getting lost in the abstractions and using them in ways they weren't designed to be used. "Saying that this is foolish is to not understand humanity to begin with." What's your reasoning? Should we believe it just because it sounds pithy or because you said so?
No, you should believe it because it is all around you. It is how humans behave, whether you like it or not.
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EPT
