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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:47 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:39 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 05:30 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:22 m4inbrain wrote:On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me. First of foremost, the first statement is wrong. The second one is true though, it was a demonstration of the new weapon that "america" (actually not really) invented. I already told you (at least i guess it was you): read up on that. Theres a reason Eisenhower, MacArthur, Leahy, Spaatz, Nimitz and so on (you know, kinda respected military persons) deemed the nukes unnecessary. Also, pullitzer-price winner and US-historian Martin Sherwin on that subject, especially the nagasaki-bomb: "at best it was pointless, at worst it was genocide". Also, don't forget that the US denied the long-term-effects of the nukes, flatout lieing into the faces of the people who had to live there. Also, japan actually tried to surrender, and guess what: america altered the deal even further, making in virtually impossible for japan to surrender on normal terms. Of course, knowingly. I can give you a tip about literature on that topic, as soon as im back home (titles are in german, need to search for the english ones). I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial. I would not even say that. America had its fair share of atrocities, in all wars. No offense... but German literature is not exactly where I would go to look for WWII tips... Of course US did alot power moves, that's what countries do when winning. The term of surrender nullifies the power of Japanese Emperor, which is the symbol of Imperialistic Japan, it must had a reason, if not, tough, that's what you get when you wage war against humanity and then lose. Japan: convicted of War Crimes; US: not convicted of War Crimes. Difference. People also don't realize that the US dropped atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians. Not to mention firebombing Tokyo that killed hundreds of thousands more. This actually is a case where if Japan had won the war, there would be no doubt the American leaders in charge would be prosecuted of war crimes. Like m4inbrain said, there is doubt even whether the atomic bombs were necessary in ending the war, because the peace terms the Japanese were offering in early 1945 were suspiciously identical to the actual terms when Japan did surrender: http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html. Since you don't trust German sources (lol?), here is an American source for you. America should never, ever apologize for the atomic bombs or firebombing Japan. Unconditional surrender from Japan was the only way to end the war, and that simply wasn't going to happen without all of the bombings or a costly invasion of the Japanese islands.
Walter Trohan, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune with impeccable credentials for integrity and accuracy, reported that two days before President Roosevelt left for the Yalta conference with Churchill and Stalin in early February 1945, he was shown a forty-page memorandum drafted by General MacArthur outlining a Japanese offer for surrender almost identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, President Truman. The single difference was the Japanese insistence on retention of the emperor, which was not acceptable to the American strategists at the time, though it was ultimately allowed in the final peace terms.
They even got to keep their emperor, so there was no difference between the peace terms offered in early 1945 and the unconditional surrender after the atomic bombs. Only explanation is atomic bombs were done purely out of revenge or American leaders were incompetent.
http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html
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I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them)
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On September 19 2012 05:49 xsevR wrote:
The Chinese government is just glad to have the people angry at someone else... Just for reference the Tianemen Square massacre was a whole lot more recent than any Japanese/Chinese conflict. To this day, the government of the People's Republic of China continues to suppress public mention or discussion about the protests.
People in China don't much give a damn about Tiananmen. It's YOU people that claim it's the biggest thing since the unification of China. Of all the Chinese students I've spoken to, all of them talk about economic opportunities if they decide to stay (some do not) but nobody's ever mentioned human rights as a reason for wishing to stay around. It's not that they don't know of the event's existence, human rights really isn't seen as a huge problem. Pollution? Yes. Loss of morality? Yes. Economic stratification? Yes. Corruption? Yes. Human rights? Only in your mind.
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On September 19 2012 05:49 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:47 xDaunt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:39 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 05:30 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:22 m4inbrain wrote:On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me. First of foremost, the first statement is wrong. The second one is true though, it was a demonstration of the new weapon that "america" (actually not really) invented. I already told you (at least i guess it was you): read up on that. Theres a reason Eisenhower, MacArthur, Leahy, Spaatz, Nimitz and so on (you know, kinda respected military persons) deemed the nukes unnecessary. Also, pullitzer-price winner and US-historian Martin Sherwin on that subject, especially the nagasaki-bomb: "at best it was pointless, at worst it was genocide". Also, don't forget that the US denied the long-term-effects of the nukes, flatout lieing into the faces of the people who had to live there. Also, japan actually tried to surrender, and guess what: america altered the deal even further, making in virtually impossible for japan to surrender on normal terms. Of course, knowingly. I can give you a tip about literature on that topic, as soon as im back home (titles are in german, need to search for the english ones). I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial. I would not even say that. America had its fair share of atrocities, in all wars. No offense... but German literature is not exactly where I would go to look for WWII tips... Of course US did alot power moves, that's what countries do when winning. The term of surrender nullifies the power of Japanese Emperor, which is the symbol of Imperialistic Japan, it must had a reason, if not, tough, that's what you get when you wage war against humanity and then lose. Japan: convicted of War Crimes; US: not convicted of War Crimes. Difference. People also don't realize that the US dropped atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians. Not to mention firebombing Tokyo that killed hundreds of thousands more. This actually is a case where if Japan had won the war, there would be no doubt the American leaders in charge would be prosecuted of war crimes. Like m4inbrain said, there is doubt even whether the atomic bombs were necessary in ending the war, because the peace terms the Japanese were offering in early 1945 were suspiciously identical to the actual terms when Japan did surrender: http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html. Since you don't trust German sources (lol?), here is an American source for you. America should never, ever apologize for the atomic bombs or firebombing Japan. Unconditional surrender from Japan was the only way to end the war, and that simply wasn't going to happen without all of the bombings or a costly invasion of the Japanese islands. Show nested quote +Walter Trohan, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune with impeccable credentials for integrity and accuracy, reported that two days before President Roosevelt left for the Yalta conference with Churchill and Stalin in early February 1945, he was shown a forty-page memorandum drafted by General MacArthur outlining a Japanese offer for surrender almost identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, President Truman. The single difference was the Japanese insistence on retention of the emperor, which was not acceptable to the American strategists at the time, though it was ultimately allowed in the final peace terms. They even got to keep their emperor, so there was no difference between the peace terms offered in early 1945 and the unconditional surrender after the atomic bombs. Only explanation is atomic bombs were done purely out of revenge or American leaders were incompetent. http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html
Well the other reason was to scare the pants off the Russians.
But yes, you are entirely correct that the people that mattered in the U.S. government knew full well the Japanese were willing to surrender.
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On September 19 2012 05:49 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:47 xDaunt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:39 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 05:30 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:22 m4inbrain wrote:On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me. First of foremost, the first statement is wrong. The second one is true though, it was a demonstration of the new weapon that "america" (actually not really) invented. I already told you (at least i guess it was you): read up on that. Theres a reason Eisenhower, MacArthur, Leahy, Spaatz, Nimitz and so on (you know, kinda respected military persons) deemed the nukes unnecessary. Also, pullitzer-price winner and US-historian Martin Sherwin on that subject, especially the nagasaki-bomb: "at best it was pointless, at worst it was genocide". Also, don't forget that the US denied the long-term-effects of the nukes, flatout lieing into the faces of the people who had to live there. Also, japan actually tried to surrender, and guess what: america altered the deal even further, making in virtually impossible for japan to surrender on normal terms. Of course, knowingly. I can give you a tip about literature on that topic, as soon as im back home (titles are in german, need to search for the english ones). I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial. I would not even say that. America had its fair share of atrocities, in all wars. No offense... but German literature is not exactly where I would go to look for WWII tips... Of course US did alot power moves, that's what countries do when winning. The term of surrender nullifies the power of Japanese Emperor, which is the symbol of Imperialistic Japan, it must had a reason, if not, tough, that's what you get when you wage war against humanity and then lose. Japan: convicted of War Crimes; US: not convicted of War Crimes. Difference. People also don't realize that the US dropped atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians. Not to mention firebombing Tokyo that killed hundreds of thousands more. This actually is a case where if Japan had won the war, there would be no doubt the American leaders in charge would be prosecuted of war crimes. Like m4inbrain said, there is doubt even whether the atomic bombs were necessary in ending the war, because the peace terms the Japanese were offering in early 1945 were suspiciously identical to the actual terms when Japan did surrender: http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html. Since you don't trust German sources (lol?), here is an American source for you. America should never, ever apologize for the atomic bombs or firebombing Japan. Unconditional surrender from Japan was the only way to end the war, and that simply wasn't going to happen without all of the bombings or a costly invasion of the Japanese islands. Show nested quote +Walter Trohan, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune with impeccable credentials for integrity and accuracy, reported that two days before President Roosevelt left for the Yalta conference with Churchill and Stalin in early February 1945, he was shown a forty-page memorandum drafted by General MacArthur outlining a Japanese offer for surrender almost identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, President Truman. The single difference was the Japanese insistence on retention of the emperor, which was not acceptable to the American strategists at the time, though it was ultimately allowed in the final peace terms. They even got to keep their emperor, so there was no difference between the peace terms offered in early 1945 and the unconditional surrender after the atomic bombs. Only explanation is atomic bombs were done purely out of revenge or American leaders were incompetent. http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html
MacArthur was the one conducting the trials and was the one who decided not to charge Hirohito and grant immunity to the imperial family. The more probably explanation is that the leadership was incompetent and failed to properly rein in MacArthur, as if they had wanted revenge they could have imposed much harsher terms on Japan.
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On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
I wouldn't say so. My Chinese coworker (mid 30s) lost four uncles. Even they are not personally involved (plenty still did, don't forget people as young as 7 participated, and younger ones sure would remember also), they were directly and indirectly affected. My grandfather on my Mom's side was in the Europe theater, and he would not use any product made in Germany to this day. I'm sure it's similar in China.
Edit: add original text since a few people posted in between
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On September 19 2012 06:04 fasdaf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:49 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 05:47 xDaunt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:39 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 05:30 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:22 m4inbrain wrote:On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:
[quote]
This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago)
And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities.
EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me. First of foremost, the first statement is wrong. The second one is true though, it was a demonstration of the new weapon that "america" (actually not really) invented. I already told you (at least i guess it was you): read up on that. Theres a reason Eisenhower, MacArthur, Leahy, Spaatz, Nimitz and so on (you know, kinda respected military persons) deemed the nukes unnecessary. Also, pullitzer-price winner and US-historian Martin Sherwin on that subject, especially the nagasaki-bomb: "at best it was pointless, at worst it was genocide". Also, don't forget that the US denied the long-term-effects of the nukes, flatout lieing into the faces of the people who had to live there. Also, japan actually tried to surrender, and guess what: america altered the deal even further, making in virtually impossible for japan to surrender on normal terms. Of course, knowingly. I can give you a tip about literature on that topic, as soon as im back home (titles are in german, need to search for the english ones). I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial. I would not even say that. America had its fair share of atrocities, in all wars. No offense... but German literature is not exactly where I would go to look for WWII tips... Of course US did alot power moves, that's what countries do when winning. The term of surrender nullifies the power of Japanese Emperor, which is the symbol of Imperialistic Japan, it must had a reason, if not, tough, that's what you get when you wage war against humanity and then lose. Japan: convicted of War Crimes; US: not convicted of War Crimes. Difference. People also don't realize that the US dropped atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians. Not to mention firebombing Tokyo that killed hundreds of thousands more. This actually is a case where if Japan had won the war, there would be no doubt the American leaders in charge would be prosecuted of war crimes. Like m4inbrain said, there is doubt even whether the atomic bombs were necessary in ending the war, because the peace terms the Japanese were offering in early 1945 were suspiciously identical to the actual terms when Japan did surrender: http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html. Since you don't trust German sources (lol?), here is an American source for you. America should never, ever apologize for the atomic bombs or firebombing Japan. Unconditional surrender from Japan was the only way to end the war, and that simply wasn't going to happen without all of the bombings or a costly invasion of the Japanese islands. Walter Trohan, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune with impeccable credentials for integrity and accuracy, reported that two days before President Roosevelt left for the Yalta conference with Churchill and Stalin in early February 1945, he was shown a forty-page memorandum drafted by General MacArthur outlining a Japanese offer for surrender almost identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, President Truman. The single difference was the Japanese insistence on retention of the emperor, which was not acceptable to the American strategists at the time, though it was ultimately allowed in the final peace terms. They even got to keep their emperor, so there was no difference between the peace terms offered in early 1945 and the unconditional surrender after the atomic bombs. Only explanation is atomic bombs were done purely out of revenge or American leaders were incompetent. http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html MacArthur was the one conducting the trials and was the one who decided not to charge Hirohito and grant immunity to the imperial family. The more probably explanation is that the leadership was incompetent and failed to properly rein in MacArthur, as if they had wanted revenge they could have imposed much harsher terms on Japan.
IIRC I saw some documentary that said the Emperor was willing to surrender but the military wasn't. That's why he was dealt with lightly. It's a vague recollection so I can't source it or even be sure it has any substance but if this rings true with anyone else maybe they can elaborate.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:03 ddrddrddrddr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:49 xsevR wrote:
The Chinese government is just glad to have the people angry at someone else... Just for reference the Tianemen Square massacre was a whole lot more recent than any Japanese/Chinese conflict. To this day, the government of the People's Republic of China continues to suppress public mention or discussion about the protests. People in China don't much give a damn about Tiananmen. It's YOU people that claim it's the biggest thing since the unification of China. Of all the Chinese students I've spoken to, all of them talk about economic opportunities if they decide to stay (some do not) but nobody's ever mentioned human rights as a reason for wishing to stay around. It's not that they don't know of the event's existence, human rights really isn't seen as a huge problem. Pollution? Yes. Loss of morality? Yes. Economic stratification? Yes. Corruption? Yes. Human rights? Only in your mind.
You mean you don't care about young college students like yourself who tried to stand up to the government, but got killed by machine guns and tanks and shit? Please don't generalize your views to everyone living in China. I will agree with you that Chinese people are tolerating the government atm, because they are looking for stability after a century of chaos.
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On September 19 2012 05:49 xsevR wrote:
The Chinese government is just glad to have the people angry at someone else... Just for reference the Tianemen Square massacre was a whole lot more recent than any Japanese/Chinese conflict. To this day, the government of the People's Republic of China continues to suppress public mention or discussion about the protests.
that at be true, but I can have a much more fair divorce court ruling in china than Japan. The amount of half Japanese kids that were kidnapped from non Japanese parents is far greater than the dead from that day in Beijing.
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On September 19 2012 06:12 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:03 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On September 19 2012 05:49 xsevR wrote:
The Chinese government is just glad to have the people angry at someone else... Just for reference the Tianemen Square massacre was a whole lot more recent than any Japanese/Chinese conflict. To this day, the government of the People's Republic of China continues to suppress public mention or discussion about the protests. People in China don't much give a damn about Tiananmen. It's YOU people that claim it's the biggest thing since the unification of China. Of all the Chinese students I've spoken to, all of them talk about economic opportunities if they decide to stay (some do not) but nobody's ever mentioned human rights as a reason for wishing to stay around. It's not that they don't know of the event's existence, human rights really isn't seen as a huge problem. Pollution? Yes. Loss of morality? Yes. Economic stratification? Yes. Corruption? Yes. Human rights? Only in your mind. You don't care about young college students like yourself who tried to stand up to the government, but got killed by machine guns and tanks and shit? Please don't generalize your views to everyone living in China. I will agree with you that Chinese people are tolerating the government atm, because they are looking for stability after a century of chaos.
Compare Tiananmen Square (where 2000 dead) to Japanese in China (where 20mil+ dead) is just silly...
Yeah it's terrible and they should apologize, but it's comparing apples to General Mills here.
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On September 19 2012 06:06 ragz_gt wrote:
I wouldn't say so. My Chinese coworker (mid 30s) lost four uncles. Even they are not personally involved (plenty still did, don't forget people as young as 7 participated, and younger ones sure would remember also), they were personally affected. My grandfather on my Mom's side was in the Europe theater, and he would not use any product made in Germany to this day. I'm sure it's similar in China.
Yeah but that's not really the issue here. I can understand that there's still peoplpe around who hate people from Germany for what happened because they lost someone during ww2 or whatever else.
For example, I once went on a daytrip to france with my school (everyone picking french as their 2nd language after english) for all this "see, you can actually use this stuff you learn in school and it's fun! Speak french!"-stuff. We got a sheet with tasks to solve and were told to ask around to be able to solve them.
We obviously did that and as the young kids we still were just asked everyone without a second of a thought, one of the men we asked ended up being a very old man, probably in his 80s and he insulted us in german, basicly telling us to get lost, that he's not talking with germans and that he hates people from germany. I was kind of shocked back then and after 2 seconds or so realized what's going on so we apologized and went away.
Long story short:
Yeah those people exist and there's really not much you can do about it and I can perfectly understand them. But this isn't a problem of 80 year olds rioting.
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On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them)
Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation.
Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did?
A country is not just a single generation of people.
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The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
Just for the record, NO ONE likes Ishihara. Somehow he keeps getting elected but the guy has like 1920s Japanese political views.
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On September 19 2012 06:06 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag I wouldn't say so. My Chinese coworker (mid 30s) lost four uncles. Even they are not personally involved (plenty still did, don't forget people as young as 7 participated, and younger ones sure would remember also), they were directly and indirectly affected. My grandfather on my Mom's side was in the Europe theater, and he would not use any product made in Germany to this day. I'm sure it's similar in China. Edit: add original text since a few people posted in between
*rolls eyes* Where did I say people shouldn't be upset about tragedies that happened to them. But you know what? Your Chinese co-worker is wrong if they hate Japanese in general. Take a Japanese person off the street - they did not kill those uncles. Seeking to punish children for the crimes of their parents is wrong.
Hating people who commit war crimes is not wrong. Hating and punishing others for what they didn't do is wrong.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:15 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:12 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:03 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On September 19 2012 05:49 xsevR wrote:
The Chinese government is just glad to have the people angry at someone else... Just for reference the Tianemen Square massacre was a whole lot more recent than any Japanese/Chinese conflict. To this day, the government of the People's Republic of China continues to suppress public mention or discussion about the protests. People in China don't much give a damn about Tiananmen. It's YOU people that claim it's the biggest thing since the unification of China. Of all the Chinese students I've spoken to, all of them talk about economic opportunities if they decide to stay (some do not) but nobody's ever mentioned human rights as a reason for wishing to stay around. It's not that they don't know of the event's existence, human rights really isn't seen as a huge problem. Pollution? Yes. Loss of morality? Yes. Economic stratification? Yes. Corruption? Yes. Human rights? Only in your mind. You don't care about young college students like yourself who tried to stand up to the government, but got killed by machine guns and tanks and shit? Please don't generalize your views to everyone living in China. I will agree with you that Chinese people are tolerating the government atm, because they are looking for stability after a century of chaos. Compare Tiananmen Square (where 2000 dead) to Japanese in China (where 20mil+ dead) is just silly...
My response was to his hyperbole that Tiananmen square doesn't matter to Chinese people, as if those people died in vain. I wasn't the original poster who compared the two events, so don't put words in my mouth. I will mention that comparing these things in terms of numbers of people dead is quite naive. One was an uprising by the people against the ruling government. Another was a war that lasted over a decade.
edit: +1 to what MisterFred is saying. Dregging up things from 70 years ago in order to have the moral high ground on Japanese people who weren't even alive when those things happened is pretty retarded.
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On September 19 2012 06:18 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag I wouldn't say so. My Chinese coworker (mid 30s) lost four uncles. Even they are not personally involved (plenty still did, don't forget people as young as 7 participated, and younger ones sure would remember also), they were directly and indirectly affected. My grandfather on my Mom's side was in the Europe theater, and he would not use any product made in Germany to this day. I'm sure it's similar in China. Edit: add original text since a few people posted in between *rolls eyes* Where did I say people shouldn't be upset about tragedies that happened to them. But you know what? Your Chinese co-worker is wrong if they hate Japanese in general. Take a Japanese person off the street - they did not kill those uncles. Seeking to punish children for the crimes of their parents is wrong. Hating people who commit war crimes is not wrong. Hating and punishing others for what they didn't do is wrong.
I'm not saying it's good or right, but people were affected, even even those in the 30s and 40s now were affected. It's probably not a nice view on life, but I can definitely understand why people are upset. You seem to not understand why people would be angry that a country invaded another country 70 years ago, but... they are angry nonetheless.
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On September 19 2012 06:20 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:15 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 06:12 CountChocula wrote:On September 19 2012 06:03 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On September 19 2012 05:49 xsevR wrote:
The Chinese government is just glad to have the people angry at someone else... Just for reference the Tianemen Square massacre was a whole lot more recent than any Japanese/Chinese conflict. To this day, the government of the People's Republic of China continues to suppress public mention or discussion about the protests. People in China don't much give a damn about Tiananmen. It's YOU people that claim it's the biggest thing since the unification of China. Of all the Chinese students I've spoken to, all of them talk about economic opportunities if they decide to stay (some do not) but nobody's ever mentioned human rights as a reason for wishing to stay around. It's not that they don't know of the event's existence, human rights really isn't seen as a huge problem. Pollution? Yes. Loss of morality? Yes. Economic stratification? Yes. Corruption? Yes. Human rights? Only in your mind. You don't care about young college students like yourself who tried to stand up to the government, but got killed by machine guns and tanks and shit? Please don't generalize your views to everyone living in China. I will agree with you that Chinese people are tolerating the government atm, because they are looking for stability after a century of chaos. Compare Tiananmen Square (where 2000 dead) to Japanese in China (where 20mil+ dead) is just silly... My response was to his hyperbole that Tiananmen square doesn't matter to Chinese people, as if those people died in vain. I wasn't the original poster who compared the two events, so don't put words in my mouth. I will mention that comparing these things in terms of numbers of people dead is quite naive. One was an uprising by the people against the ruling government. Another was a war that lasted over a decade. edit: +1 to what MisterFred is saying. Dregging up things from 70 years ago in order to have the moral high ground on Japanese people who weren't even alive when those things happened is pretty retarded.
A country is not just a single generation of people.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people.
What a funny post, Azarkon. You are using mentally insane actions by the American government that include firebombing Tokyo (100,000s of civilians killed), atomic bomb droppings that I showed in previous posts were not necessary to end the war in any way, and other acts of revenge against Germany and Japan to justify the notion that the people living in dictatorships at the time ought to suffer because of actions taken by their governments. I think you'll agree with me how ludicrous your argument is.
Just because the US did something in history doesn't make it morally justified. The US isn't some kind of paragon of virtue who we, the people who can think for ourselves use to judge actions on the world stage against.
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On September 19 2012 06:15 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:01 MisterFred wrote:
I think the main thing a lot of people are forgetting is that World War II was SEVENTY YEARS AGO. Punishing people for what their parents did is stupid.
The Japanese alive today did not participate in the Rape of Nanking, they did not use comfort women, they didn't steal or make war. The Chinese alive today did not persecute Nestorian Christians out of existence, invade Korea, or commit other ancient atrocities.
The riots in China are based on racist, nationalist hatred inflamed by the rhetoric of self-serving politicians looking to increase the importance of the military or distract from leadership squabbles/the economy. Vilifying the Japanese is easy, and rallies people around the government and the flag
The mayor of Tokyo is doing the same thing of course. He has helped force this issue to the main stage precisely for the purpose of DOMESTIC politics. No doubt he's considering a run for national office or distracting from some association with the Fukushima debacle, and looking to be the number one politician trusted by Japanese with a politically nationalist sentiment.
It saddens me to see so many TL'ers broadly categorizing 'the Japanese' or 'the Chinese' as unified blocs incapable of individualistic thought. This very tendency to paint everyone in a society with the same brush is the foundation of the racism inherent in this controversy.
The riots & anti-Japanese feelings aren't a result of a minor territorial dispute or WW II war crimes. They're pure political manipulation that's gotten out of hand mixed with good old-fashioned racism. Racism that doesn't necessarily claim the Japanese are inferior - but inherently militaristic and expansionist.
And of course many Japanese' own feelings of Nipponese superiority and the same manipulation for domestic political reasons are also a problem. Not as big a problem of course - the nationalist anti-Japanese movement in China is much larger than the nationalist movement in Japan.
And here are many TL'ers, people from around the world, arguing about who was more brutal when and what country/race is more to blame for... anything. The people that committed WW II crimes are dead.* Grow up, y'all.
*(ok, 99.9% of them) Countries outlive people. Countries DO get judged by the actions of people who are long dead, because the cultural, social, and political environment that result in the behavior of countries do not just disappear after a single generation. Your idealistic view of individualism does not explain why, for example, the victorious allies imposed severe restrictions, reparations, etc. on COUNTRIES rather than individuals. Why did we throw atom bombs on civilian cities in Japan when it was the emperor and his cabinet who were responsible for the war? Why did the German people have to pay for what their leaders did? A country is not just a single generation of people.
First of all - the atomic bombs were war crimes, whether or not anyone was convicted. Yet I do not owe the people of Hiroshima or Nagasaki an apology. There is no possible way for me to have affected the outcome of those events - I was not born. Nor has being born in the United States magically induced me into having a personality that thinks it makes sense to kill hundreds of thousands.
Yes, cultures can be corrupt. Yet they also change. Just as I am not responsible for the nuclear war against the Japanese, you bear no responsibility for slavery (I am assuming you have not enslaved anyone). There is plenty to criticize about U.S., Japanese, or Chinese culture. But to assume cultural attitudes are permanent and unchanging - is racism.
The United States has a long history of believing in white supremacy. Such beliefs are part of our original Constitution. Yet we have amended that Constitution, as the Japanese have amended theirs. There are still white supremacists in the U.S., but such immoral (and stupid) beliefs are no longer part of our general culture. Yet by your logic, you bear responsibility for all the actions of the KKK?
Of course you don't.*
*(Again, assuming you are not a member of the KKK or some form of white supremacist.)
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EPT
