On September 19 2012 02:02 ChThoniC wrote: [quote]
So from 1895 until 1970, there were no protests by China about these islands that belonged under the control of Japan, and then the US. Then in 1970 there was some protest, which lead to absolutely nothing, until 42 years later when the Japanese government bought the islands from a Japanese citizen.
Governments buy property from citizens fairly often, but it never incites burning factories and smashing the cars of citizens, and looting Rolex and Dior.
The vice "president" of China disappeared mysteriously for 2 weeks among civil unrest, and now suddenly appears again smiling that the citizens of China are rioting against Japan. Just coincidence?
China wasn't really under any circumstance to contest the ownership of a small island through their civil war and WW2. Once everything settled down and the US returned the islands to Japan, China originally protested but it was Deng Xiaoping that kind of told everyone that this island wasn't really important and we could negotiate on it later. The territorial dispute has been going on for a long time, and the Japanese government suddenly buying it is easily seen as an insult.
China signed documents saying that the land belonged to Japan, and then didn't say anything about it for 75 years, through two wars that lasted less than 30 years combined.
It's absolutely nuts that this is leading to street riots, burning down factories, destroying malls, raiding stores that have no affiliation with Japan whatsoever (Rolex and Dior ??), and attacking people in public based on their nationality.
If this is a real issue, why not take it to the ICJ? The reaction is totally ridiculous and makes it impossible to support what the Chinese people are doing, even if there's a valid dispute.
The protests and riots aren't over the islands. The islands are the trigger, but the protests and riots go deeper. Haven't you been reading the thread?
Uh, that's kind of what he was originally getting at. China is using historical tensions as an excuse to make a power move.
Which is what he was wrong about. The tension is the cause of the protests / riots, and exists not because it's an 'excuse' but because it is a current running through all of Chinese society. He was saying that the Chinese government orchestrated it all, which goes against everything that's been said in the thread.
This isn't an orchestrated move. This is a move that reflects the state of China-Japan relations. Both countries have been the other's most hated country for years now in global polls. All that pent up anger is finally boiling over.
That's a matter of perspective and opinion. Yes, those tensions have always existed, but he and others raise a very, very hard-to-ignore point about this being a great time to divert attention from civil unrest to a "big bad guy."
Except the trigger came from the Japanese side. Did the Chinese government orchestrate the Japanese nationalizing the islands too?
Come on.
Does it have to be as simple as one thread? Sure, Japan might have triggered the incident, but that doesn't mean China can't profit off a power move. This doesn't have to be impeccably pre-planned by China or anything.
Except that's what he's arguing - that this event came about because of China's orchestration, and not because of Japan's Shintaro Ishitara deciding that the leadership transition in China was the perfect opportunity for sticking it to China.
This incident is the fallout of a high profile Japanese right-wing leader who has effectively hijacked Japanese politics. The Japanese government's response to him shows that they're completely incapable of touching his position. The presence of Ishitara and those of his ilk have been antagonizing China and Korea for decades, and is the ultimate cause for the row.
Read the thread. This topic has been discussed a hundred times.
This incident is a build-up of several years of recent conflict over the islands. The best timeline I've been able to find gives this list, which starts ~2004.
23 April 2004: a member of a Japanese right-wing group rammed a bus into the Chinese consulate in Osaka, to protest Chinese claims.[36]
July 2004: Japan started exploring for natural gas in what it considers its own exclusive economic zone in the East China Sea as a step to counter China's building of a natural gas complex nearby. Japan plans to survey a 30-kilometer-wide band stretching between latitudes 28 and 30 degrees North, just inside the border demarcated by Japan. China disputes Japan's rights to explore the area east of the median line between the two countries, which Japan has proposed as the demarcation line for their exclusive economic zones.[36]
July 2004: a group of Chinese held a demonstration outside the Japanese Embassy in Beijing afternoon to protest Japan's "illegal" oil exploration activities in a disputed area of the East China Sea. The protesters, organized by Beijing-based organization called the Patriots Alliance Network.[36]
17 March 2006: Kyodo News reported the U.S. Ambassador to Japan, Thomas Schieffer, presented that he considered "the Islands as territory of Japan" in his talk in Tokyo.[74]
27 October 2006: A group of activists from the Hong Kong-based Action Committee for Defending the Diaoyu Islands approached the islands to show the support for Chinese claims to the Diaoyu Islands. They were stopped from landing on the islands by the Japan Coast Guard.[75] Later on, the PLAN conducted a military exercise in the area.[76]
2008
June: On 10 June 2008, the 270 ton sport fishing vessel Lien Ho (聯合號) of Taiwan suffered a collision with the Japanese patrol vessel Koshiki. The vessel sank while in the disputed territorial waters that have been claimed by Japan and Taiwan (ROC).[77] The Taiwanese crew who were aboard the vessel claims that the larger Japanese frigate deliberately crashed into them; Japanese coast guard initially claimed that the Taiwanese boat had crashed into the patrol ship.[78] While releasing the passengers, Japan initially detained the captain and sought reparations.[79][80]
On 13 June, the captain was released.[81]
On 16 June, a boat carrying activists from Taiwan, defended by five Republic of China Coast Guard vessels, approached to within 0.4 nautical miles (740 m) of the main island, from which position they circumnavigated the island in an assertion of sovereignty of the islands. This demonstration prompted Taiwanese politicians to cancel a planned trip on-board Republic of China Navy vessels to demonstrate sovereignty.[82] The Taiwanese vessels were followed by Japanese Coast Guard vessels, but no attempt was made to intercept them.
On 20 June, upon releasing the video taken by people on board the Taiwanese boat, Japan apologized for the incident[83] and agreed to pay NT$10 million (US$311,000) as compensation to the owner of the boat.[84] Liu Chao-shiuan, Premier of the Republic of China, has refused to rule out the use of force to defend the islands against Japanese advances.[85] The ROC government recalled its chief representative to Japan in protest.[86] On June 20, the de-facto Japanese ambassador to Taiwan apologized, in person, to the captain of the Taiwanese boat Lien Ho.[87]
2010
September: On 7 September 2010, a Chinese fishing trawler collided with two Japanese Coast Guard patrol boats in disputed waters near the islands. The collisions occurred after the Japanese Coast Guard ordered the trawler to leave the area. After the collisions, Japanese sailors boarded the Chinese vessel and arrested the captain Zhan Qixiong.[88]
On 18 September, the 79th anniversary of the Mukden Incident, widespread anti-Japanese protests were held in Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Hong Kong and Shenyang.[89]
On 22 September, Chinese premier Wen Jiabao threatened further action if the captain of the Chinese fishing trawler was not released.[90]
On 24 September, Japan released the Chinese captain, and stated that keeping the captain in custody would not be appropriate and it would raise considerable impact on Sino-Japanese relations.[91]
On 25 September, China demanded an apology and compensation from Japan for holding the Chinese boat captain in the collision incident. Japan rejected the Chinese demand.[32]
On 27 September, Japan said that it would counter-claim against China for damage to their patrol boats in the collision.[92] October:
On 2 October, large scale anti-Chinese protests occurred in Tokyo and six other cities in Japan.[93][94]
On 3 October, a group of right wing Japanese protesters marched to the Ikebukuro mall specializing in Chinese food demanding that the islands be defended against the Chinese.[95]
On 6 October, a joint USA/Japan drill is planned, based on the defense of Okinawa in December,[96][97] though Japanese Prime Minister Kan Naoto told parliament that the joint military exercise was not planned specifically with the islands in mind.[98]
On 14 October, Japan's Foreign Minister Seiji Maehara, along with other members of the LDP party filed a complaint against Google Maps demanding the removal of the Chinese name "Diaoyutai" from the interactive map services. Google refused, stating that they wish to remain neutral.[99]
2011
June - On 29 June 2011, a fishing boat from Taiwan, named "Tafa 268", with some activists aboard, navigated to waters some 23 nautical miles off the disputed Diaoyutai/Senkaku Islands in the morning. The Japanese coast guard immediately mobilized four patrol vessels to block the “Tafa 268”, and a Japanese helicopter was also dispatched to monitor the Taiwanese boat. The Coast Guard Agency (CGA) Keelung office of Taiwan sent five patrol vessels there and managed to break the Japanese blockade to sail close to the Taiwanese fishing boat. Both sides of coast guard vessels reiterated the disputed islands were their own territory but no collision happened, and "Tafa 268" set off for home escorted by the CGA vessels after a 25-minute standoff.[100][101]
July: On 3~4 July, nine Japanese fishing boats, including one owned by a senior official of a Japanese nationalist group, were fishing near the islands. Beijing lodged a stern remonstration with Tokyo on July 4, 2011, over such Japanese fishing activities. Chinese Foreign Ministry demands that Japanese fishing vessels be immediately withdrawn.[102][103][104] On the morning of 3 July, the Japan Coast Guard found that Chinese fishery patrol vessel “Fishery 201″ in waters near the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands. Japanese patrol vessels issued a warning “Do not enter Japanese territorial waters “. China “Fishery 201″ then responded it was conducting legitimate task in that the waters around the Diaoyu Islands under the jurisdiction of China.[105] Also on July 4, two Chinese military aircraft approached the disputed islands. When the planes came within 37 miles of the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands, the Japan Air Self-Defence Force (JASDF) immediately scrambled an F-15 to intercept them.[106]
November: Apparently influenced by the dispute with China over the Senkakus, Japan vocally supported the United States at the November 2011 East Asia Summit in declaring that the South China Sea, much of which China claims, is under the jurisdiction of international maritime law and any disputes over the area must be resolved through multi-national cooperation and dialogue. China, in contrast, declared that any disputes over possession of the South China Sea should be resolved bilaterally, not through multi-nationational forums or talks.[107]
In advance of Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda's planned December 2011 state visit to the PRC, the PRC government requested that the two countries begin negotiations over national boundaries in the East China Sea. According to Kyodo News, the proposal by China appeared to be an effort to get Japan to acknowledge that a territorial dispute over the Senkaku Islands existed.[108]
2012
January: On 1 January, four members of the Ishigaki municipal assembly visited Uotsuri Island. Ishigaki's mayor, however, stated that the four may have acted without proper authority and people wishing to visit the island should first obtain permission from the Japanese central government.[109] In response, a group of Chinese activists from Hong Kong attempted to sail to the islands to protest the Japanese actions, but were blocked by Hong Kong-based coast guard authorities and forced to return to port.[110][111]
On 16 January, Japan announced that it would name 39 previously unnamed, uninhabited islets that it claims in the East China Sea, including four in the Senkaku Island chain. In response, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Weimin stated: "Our stance is very clear on the issue of the Diaoyu Islands. China has indisputable sovereignty over the Diaoyu Islands that have been an inherent part of China since ancient times."[112][better source needed] Japan completed naming all the islands by 3 March 2012, including Hokusei Kojima and three other islets near the Senkakus.[113] In response, China gave its own names to the previously unnamed islets and PRC foreign minister Yang Jiechi urged Japan to "'fully recognise' the complexity and sensitivity of issues concerning history and the Diaoyu Islands" and "'properly handle these sensitive issues' based on the overall interests of the China-Japan relationship."[114][115][better source needed] Taiwan responded by disagreeing with both the PRC's and Japan's naming of the islands, with foreign minister Timothy Yang stating that Taiwan would handle the matter according to its own national interests.[116]
On 21 January, Diet lawmakers Koichi Mukoyama and Yoshitaka Shindō surveyed the islands by ship and later stated that the islands, several of which are still private property of Japanese citizens, needed to be fully nationalized. Their visit was the first by national politicians since 1997.[117]
March: On 16 March, the PRC sent maritime patrol boats Haijian 50 and Haijian 66 to patrol near the Senkaku Islands, with foreign ministry spokesman Liu Weimin announcing that the move was to help safeguard the PRC's territory and that the islands were part of PRC's territory. The crew of a nearby Japanese coast guard vessel stated that the Haijian 50 entered Japanese territorial waters for 25 minutes and warned the ship to leave. A Japanese government spokesman later stated that the ship had not actually entered Japanese waters, but the Japanese government lodged an official protest with the Chinese ambassador to Japan, Cheng Yonghua.[118][119] According to the People's Daily 21 March 2012, an unnamed official of the State Oceanic Administration stated that the PRC intends to patrol the Diaoyu Islands in order to challenge a potential future Japanese claim to the islands based on the international 50-year standard "statute of limitations" for claiming possession of a territory.[120]
July: On 4 July, Coastguard vessels from Taiwan and Japan collided in waters near a disputed island chain Wednesday, as the Taiwanese vessel was escorting activists to the area.[121]
On 7 July, the Japanese Prime Minister stated that these islands are an integral part of his country and the Government is considering their purchase from the Japanese owner.[122]
Three Chinese patrol vessels entered the disputed waters around these islands on 11 July 2012.[123] On 15 July 2012, Japan recalled their ambassador to China to work on the response to the transgression.[124] In late July, Japanese officials have raised alarms regarding increased Chinese military expansion.[125]
The events would eventually escalate and lead up to widespread protests in China.
August On 8 August, after a meeting between the Japanese Defense Minister and the American Defense Secretary, it was announced that UAVs would be used to conduct surveillance around Okinawa, which will include the Senkaku Islands.[126][127]
On 15 August, ships carrying activists from Hong Kong approached the islands, but were stopped by the Japan Coast Guard. Seven activists jumped from the ships to swim ashore, five of whom reached the island; the other two turned back to the ships. The activists and their ship were detained by Japanese authorities.[128] The detained activists were deported two days later.[129]
On 18 August, a flotilla of four boats[130] carrying about 150 Japanese activists[131] organized by right-wing group Ganbare Nippon arrived at the islands. The activists stated that they wished to commemorate Japanese World War II deaths in the area. When the activists were denied permission to land, several of them swam to the islands.[132] Ten activists swam to the islands and made an unauthorized landing on Uotsuri, where they raised Japanese flags.[133][134]
China’s Foreign Ministry protested the event before it happened saying that unilateral action by Japan on the islands "is illegal and invalid." China also lodged a formal complaint,[vague] and urged Japan to prevent frictions from escalating more.[135] The flotilla arrival at the archipelago also set off anti-Japanese rallies in more than 25 Chinese cities,[136][137] and 100 people gathered near Japan's consulate in the southern Chinese city of Guangzhou to demand that the Japanese leave the islands.[131] Chinese protestors overturned Japanese-branded cars and smashed windows of Japanese-themed businesses.[135][138]
Chinese anti-Japanese protests
On 19 August, protests broke out in Chinese cities including Shenzhen, Chengdu, Xi'an and Jinan, as well as Hong Kong.[139]
On 26 August, the Japanese government announced it is making a ¥2.05 billion bid for the Senkaku Islands to bring them under state control around next month.[140] September
On 11 September, China sent two patrol ships to the islands to demonstrate its claim of ownership. [141]Japan formally nationalized the three islands that were held in the ownership of Kunioki Kurihara.[142][143] Taiwan's Foreign Ministry lodged a strong protest to Japan, calling the island purchase an "extremely unfriendly move" that "not only harms the longtime cooperation between Taiwan and Japan but will also aggravate regional tensions in East Asia."[144]
On 12 September, there was a small anti-Japanese protest in Taipei which included flag-burning.[145]
On 13 September, Chinese government submitted a nautical chart with baselines of the territorial sea on Senkaku Islands to the United Nations.[146][147]
Weekend of September 15-16 Citizens in mainland China participated in protest marches and called for a boycott of Japanese products in as many as 85 Chinese cities[148], including Shanghai, Shenyang, Zhengzhou, Hangzhou and Harbin, as well as Hong Kong[149][150][151] Demonstrations escalated to arson of Japanese vehicles and other criminal acts in Beijing[152], Shenzhen[152], Guangzhou[153], Changsha[154][155], Suzhou[152], Mianyang[151], Xi'an[156][155][157] and Qingdao[152]. There were protests in Los Angeles[158], Houston, San Francisco[159] and Chicago, as well as a petition to the US government and Congress to take a neutral stance over the dispute.[160]
South China Morning Post reporter Felix Wong was reportedly beaten by police in Shenzhen while covering the protests.[161]
US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta told reporters "I am concerned that when these countries engage in provocations of one kind or another over these various islands that it raises the possibility that a misjudgment on one side or the other could result in violence and could result in conflict"[162]
On 16 September, China officially announced to submit the plan to request natural extension of their continental shelf up to Okinawa Trough extend the EEZ to UN Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf.[163]
On 17 September, Kōichirō Gemba said that there was a mutual understanding that the United States would defend the islands, even though the subject was not discussed with the Americans.[164]
On September 19 2012 03:02 Enders116 wrote: This is just what the world needs...
And now this is the perfect political platform to bring these other two issues to the eyes of the world: - The Hague convention of 1980 in regard to international parental abduction and the fact that Japan has not signed said convention. See video below for more information.
The youtube video says it all perfectly, without error. The last I checked, roughly 1000 cases of this exist in American and Japanese divorced families, and almost 1000 from Korean~American divorced families, and 1000 between Chinese and Japanese divorced families.
and... - Japanese hunting of Endangered species (whales, dolphins, etc.) in international waters.
Until these other two issues are addressed and foreigners are treated completely equally with Japanese citizens in their courts in all aspects, I will turn a blind eye to all of the lynchings, pillagings, protests, and plunders conducted by the Chinese.
and I whole-heartedly agree with the post that Kwark made that got in to the OP.
Japan does bad things, so you don't care if Japanese people get killed?
You sound like a monster. Murdering people is not the solution to any problem. There are better ways to fight injustice. Lowering yourself to become someone that doesn't care if innocent people are killed just because they were born in a country whose government you don't like is deplorable.
On September 19 2012 03:02 Enders116 wrote: This is just what the world needs...
And now this is the perfect political platform to bring these other two issues to the eyes of the world: - The Hague convention of 1980 in regard to international parental abduction and the fact that Japan has not signed said convention. See video below for more information.
The youtube video says it all perfectly, without error. The last I checked, roughly 1000 cases of this exist in American and Japanese divorced families, and almost 1000 from Korean~American divorced families, and 1000 between Chinese and Japanese divorced families.
and... - Japanese hunting of Endangered species (whales, dolphins, etc.) in international waters.
Until these other two issues are addressed and foreigners are treated completely equally with Japanese citizens in their courts in all aspects, I will turn a blind eye to all of the lynchings, pillagings, protests, and plunders conducted by the Chinese.
and I whole-heartedly agree with the post that Kwark made that got in to the OP.
Japan does bad things, so you don't care if Japanese people get killed?
You sound like a monster. Murdering people is not the solution to any problem. There are better ways to fight injustice. Lowering yourself to become someone that doesn't care if innocent people are killed just because they were born in a country whose government you don't like is deplorable.
Lessons not written in blood are the ones most easily forgotten.
On September 19 2012 03:02 Enders116 wrote: This is just what the world needs...
And now this is the perfect political platform to bring these other two issues to the eyes of the world: - The Hague convention of 1980 in regard to international parental abduction and the fact that Japan has not signed said convention. See video below for more information.
The youtube video says it all perfectly, without error. The last I checked, roughly 1000 cases of this exist in American and Japanese divorced families, and almost 1000 from Korean~American divorced families, and 1000 between Chinese and Japanese divorced families.
and... - Japanese hunting of Endangered species (whales, dolphins, etc.) in international waters.
Until these other two issues are addressed and foreigners are treated completely equally with Japanese citizens in their courts in all aspects, I will turn a blind eye to all of the lynchings, pillagings, protests, and plunders conducted by the Chinese.
and I whole-heartedly agree with the post that Kwark made that got in to the OP.
Japan does bad things, so you don't care if Japanese people get killed?
You sound like a monster. Murdering people is not the solution to any problem. There are better ways to fight injustice. Lowering yourself to become someone that doesn't care if innocent people are killed just because they were born in a country whose government you don't like is deplorable.
Lessons not written in blood are the ones most easily forgotten.
Yeah, because its still 1642.
Maybe get your head out of your ass and start living in the present.
On September 19 2012 03:02 Enders116 wrote: This is just what the world needs...
And now this is the perfect political platform to bring these other two issues to the eyes of the world: - The Hague convention of 1980 in regard to international parental abduction and the fact that Japan has not signed said convention. See video below for more information.
The youtube video says it all perfectly, without error. The last I checked, roughly 1000 cases of this exist in American and Japanese divorced families, and almost 1000 from Korean~American divorced families, and 1000 between Chinese and Japanese divorced families.
and... - Japanese hunting of Endangered species (whales, dolphins, etc.) in international waters.
Until these other two issues are addressed and foreigners are treated completely equally with Japanese citizens in their courts in all aspects, I will turn a blind eye to all of the lynchings, pillagings, protests, and plunders conducted by the Chinese.
and I whole-heartedly agree with the post that Kwark made that got in to the OP.
Japan does bad things, so you don't care if Japanese people get killed?
You sound like a monster. Murdering people is not the solution to any problem. There are better ways to fight injustice. Lowering yourself to become someone that doesn't care if innocent people are killed just because they were born in a country whose government you don't like is deplorable.
Lessons not written in blood are the ones most easily forgotten.
then you're just asking for the whole world to go into flames eventually.
OK. So, I have been doing self research on Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands for the past 3 days, starting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands_dispute While 3 days didn’t make me an expert on this issue, I learned a lot about it. I can probably answer any questions reasonably well. As you can check from my past posts, I am biased in favor of Japanese. I used to think Chinese claim was entirely groundless. That said, now that I read many relevant contents including original sources, I actually came to a new opinion: “Chinese and Japanese claims both have reasonable grounds, yet Chinese claim seems to be opportunistic.” (Remember, I am biased just like everyone is) While Japanese government’s claim is not as indisputable as it says, Chinese claim is not nearly solid enough to say “Diaoyu is no doubt Chinese territory.”
The way I see it, core of the issue is the following: None of Cairo Declaration in 1943, The Potsdam Declaration in 1945, San Francisco Peace Treaty in 1951, and Joint Communiqué of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China in 1972 precisely defined which area/islands Japan should retain or renounce the sovereignty of. All of them are somewhat vague in different degrees and seem to be open to interpretation if either side decides to. Essentially, this ambiguity is what caused this territorial dispute over Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands we have today. On top of it, PRC does not recognize San Francisco Peace Treaty while Japan does, which only further complicates the problem. Even before these, Treaty of Shimonoseki did not specifically mention handling of Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands, either. Also, whether or not the islands were Terra nullius in 1895 when Japan incorporated them is another focus which only legal experts can answer.
As for ICJ(International Court of Justice), Japanese government’s official stance at the moment is that there is no such need. However, these recent events are actually changing opinions among Japanese people, and the top rated comment I read in a discussion thread (well, not the best source, but still) was “Take it to ICJ to end it once and for all.” IF China actually proposed to bring the issue to ICJ just like Japan did for Korean controlled Dokdo/Takeshima last month, Japan should accept it. I would harshly criticize Japanese government if they didn’t. If China is so confident, they should actually try it rather than assuming Japan wouldn’t accept it. I am with Chinese government if they decided to bring it to ICJ, though I believe Japan would win.
I will post counterarguments to the territorial dispute as much as possible.
On September 19 2012 03:02 Enders116 wrote: This is just what the world needs...
And now this is the perfect political platform to bring these other two issues to the eyes of the world: - The Hague convention of 1980 in regard to international parental abduction and the fact that Japan has not signed said convention. See video below for more information.
The youtube video says it all perfectly, without error. The last I checked, roughly 1000 cases of this exist in American and Japanese divorced families, and almost 1000 from Korean~American divorced families, and 1000 between Chinese and Japanese divorced families.
and... - Japanese hunting of Endangered species (whales, dolphins, etc.) in international waters.
Until these other two issues are addressed and foreigners are treated completely equally with Japanese citizens in their courts in all aspects, I will turn a blind eye to all of the lynchings, pillagings, protests, and plunders conducted by the Chinese.
and I whole-heartedly agree with the post that Kwark made that got in to the OP.
Japan does bad things, so you don't care if Japanese people get killed?
You sound like a monster. Murdering people is not the solution to any problem. There are better ways to fight injustice. Lowering yourself to become someone that doesn't care if innocent people are killed just because they were born in a country whose government you don't like is deplorable.
Lessons not written in blood are the ones most easily forgotten.
then you're just asking for the whole world to go into flames eventually.
I.E. fucking retarded
Some places cannot be saved. They can only be destroyed.
I think we are more likely to go to war with Japan than China, simply due to its ethnocentristic overtones.
I study international security studies, and in in the course of my studies I've just seen that some societies simply cannot be saved.
On September 19 2012 03:02 Enders116 wrote: This is just what the world needs...
And now this is the perfect political platform to bring these other two issues to the eyes of the world: - The Hague convention of 1980 in regard to international parental abduction and the fact that Japan has not signed said convention. See video below for more information.
The youtube video says it all perfectly, without error. The last I checked, roughly 1000 cases of this exist in American and Japanese divorced families, and almost 1000 from Korean~American divorced families, and 1000 between Chinese and Japanese divorced families.
and... - Japanese hunting of Endangered species (whales, dolphins, etc.) in international waters.
Until these other two issues are addressed and foreigners are treated completely equally with Japanese citizens in their courts in all aspects, I will turn a blind eye to all of the lynchings, pillagings, protests, and plunders conducted by the Chinese.
and I whole-heartedly agree with the post that Kwark made that got in to the OP.
Japan does bad things, so you don't care if Japanese people get killed?
You sound like a monster. Murdering people is not the solution to any problem. There are better ways to fight injustice. Lowering yourself to become someone that doesn't care if innocent people are killed just because they were born in a country whose government you don't like is deplorable.
Lessons not written in blood are the ones most easily forgotten.
You remind me of those people on twitter who said "That's payback for the whales" when they were hit by the tsunami... Real classy.
EDIT: "Japan kidnaps children. Period. And I don't feel comfortable with my child(ren) living in a country where the sale and distribution of Child Pornography is legal, or where rapists run free because girls are outcasted for reporting them."
"we hoset military bases in Japan because without them, the Japanese would view all other sub-human cultures as inferior and reignite their genocidal campaigns that sparked the pacific theater in world war II."
On September 19 2012 03:21 Orek wrote: OK. So, I have been doing self research on Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands for the past 3 days, starting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands_dispute While 3 days didn’t make me an expert on this issue, I learned a lot about it. I can probably answer any questions reasonably well. As you can check from my past posts, I am biased in favor of Japanese. I used to think Chinese claim was entirely groundless. That said, now that I read many relevant contents including original sources, I actually came to a new opinion: “Chinese and Japanese claims both have reasonable grounds, yet Chinese claim seems to be opportunistic.” (Remember, I am biased just like everyone is) While Japanese government’s claim is not as indisputable as it says, Chinese claim is not nearly solid enough to say “Diaoyu is no doubt Chinese territory.”
The way I see it, core of the issue is the following: None of Cairo Declaration in 1943, The Potsdam Declaration in 1945, San Francisco Peace Treaty in 1951, and Joint Communiqué of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China in 1972 precisely defined which area/islands Japan should retain or renounce the sovereignty of. All of them are somewhat vague in different degrees and seem to be open to interpretation if either side decides to. Essentially, this ambiguity is what caused this territorial dispute over Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands we have today. On top of it, PRC does not recognize San Francisco Peace Treaty while Japan does, which only further complicates the problem. Even before these, Treaty of Shimonoseki did not specifically mention handling of Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands, either. Also, whether or not the islands were Terra nullius in 1895 when Japan incorporated them is another focus which only legal experts can answer.
As for ICJ(International Court of Justice), Japanese government’s official stance at the moment is that there is no such need. However, these recent events are actually changing opinions among Japanese people, and the top rated comment I read in a discussion thread (well, not the best source, but still) was “Take it to ICJ to end it once and for all.” When China actually proposed to bring the issue to ICJ just like Japan did for Korean controlled Dokdo/Takeshima last month, Japan should accept it. I would harshly criticize Japanese government if they didn’t. If China is so confident, they should actually try it rather than assuming Japan wouldn’t accept it. I am with Chinese government if they decided to bring it to ICJ, though I believe Japan would win.
I will post counterarguments to the territorial dispute as much as possible.
Should that When be an If or is it something that Ive missed ?
On September 19 2012 03:21 Orek wrote: OK. So, I have been doing self research on Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands for the past 3 days, starting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands_dispute While 3 days didn’t make me an expert on this issue, I learned a lot about it. I can probably answer any questions reasonably well. As you can check from my past posts, I am biased in favor of Japanese. I used to think Chinese claim was entirely groundless. That said, now that I read many relevant contents including original sources, I actually came to a new opinion: “Chinese and Japanese claims both have reasonable grounds, yet Chinese claim seems to be opportunistic.” (Remember, I am biased just like everyone is) While Japanese government’s claim is not as indisputable as it says, Chinese claim is not nearly solid enough to say “Diaoyu is no doubt Chinese territory.”
The way I see it, core of the issue is the following: None of Cairo Declaration in 1943, The Potsdam Declaration in 1945, San Francisco Peace Treaty in 1951, and Joint Communiqué of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China in 1972 precisely defined which area/islands Japan should retain or renounce the sovereignty of. All of them are somewhat vague in different degrees and seem to be open to interpretation if either side decides to. Essentially, this ambiguity is what caused this territorial dispute over Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands we have today. On top of it, PRC does not recognize San Francisco Peace Treaty while Japan does, which only further complicates the problem. Even before these, Treaty of Shimonoseki did not specifically mention handling of Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands, either. Also, whether or not the islands were Terra nullius in 1895 when Japan incorporated them is another focus which only legal experts can answer.
As for ICJ(International Court of Justice), Japanese government’s official stance at the moment is that there is no such need. However, these recent events are actually changing opinions among Japanese people, and the top rated comment I read in a discussion thread (well, not the best source, but still) was “Take it to ICJ to end it once and for all.” When China actually proposed to bring the issue to ICJ just like Japan did for Korean controlled Dokdo/Takeshima last month, Japan should accept it. I would harshly criticize Japanese government if they didn’t. If China is so confident, they should actually try it rather than assuming Japan wouldn’t accept it. I am with Chinese government if they decided to bring it to ICJ, though I believe Japan would win.
I will post counterarguments to the territorial dispute as much as possible.
Should that When be an If or is it something that Ive missed ?
Edited. Sorry about that. Nope. China has never taken the issue to ICJ. You haven't missed anything.
On September 18 2012 18:16 ShadeR wrote: Who is worse? The revisionist or the apathetic majority? The revisionist is aware of and at the very least embarrassed about what happened. And wants to rewrite history to shine a less negative light on Japan. OR The apathetic Japanese national who is aware and whose response to people with grievances is what happened, happened . Just drop it it's in the past. How much more more do you want use to apologise?
It's not apology that the people want, it's actually a sense of justice and moral standing, an apology is just a format. The Chinese are vastly more upset that there are denials of said actions as well as active actions taken such as visiting the shrines and revising history than the fact that there aren't apologies.
no, it's that, and it's monetary. the majority of chinese want japan to pay, very much in the same sense that israel MADE germany pay.
Denying that a crime committed when there is solid evidence to the contrary is also a crime.
How so.
How so? The implications in this case is that a) You committed said crime. b) You got away with said crime and deny it which is lying. c) you refuse to face consequences of said crime which is evasion of justice and criminal verdicts. d) slander and lying if you provide false information to the contrary. I could go on.
A) yes? B) Your not a criminal if you deny wrong doing no matter what evidence there is you should never have to implicate yourself. C) When was Japan ever convicted of anything? D) It is not a crime to lie...
On September 19 2012 02:42 baldgye wrote: Be it nationalism, or religion people will always create 'justifications' for killing other people... sad, so very sad.
I think the bigger problem here is that China is basically the biggest super power in the world, and has no reason to listen to other nations to take the high road. Japan where foolish and idiotic for poking at this point when China is basically at there most powerful post the US/EU financial crisis.
Western media has really got you good. China is nowhere as powerful as they have villified them to be.
I'm not really sure what you mean? Thanks to them bailing out America in the financial crisis and the fall-out from wiki-leaks American and European ambassadors don't have the ear of the Chinese as they once did.
I'm not saying they are unstoppable, but realistically... America is pretty fully committed to the middle east at the moment and couldn't just re-deploy if things really got out of hand. I'm not saying that China could launch some all out war and drop nukes... I'm saying that China could take the islands by force and there is little anyone (including Japan) could really do about it.
But if I'm 100% totally wrong then my bad, I don't claim to be an expert on China.
I think if it came to force then the American navy assets in the area would step in to prevent the spread of hostilities.
On September 18 2012 18:03 tokicheese wrote: Stephen Harper apologized to the Native Americans who were put into residential schools from the 1800s up until the 1970s recently and it was the most pointless stupid thing government could possibly be doing. He apologized for what happened over 100 years ago that he had not even the slightest powed over... Do people think these apologies actually change anything? Does it make Unit 731 go away? What about Nanking does it go away? Or how about the comfort women? Japan has apologized for what it has done asking them to complete a list of demands is just childish.
If you really want to go into terrible things humanity has done look at the stuff that was done by colonialists in Africa. The Belgians in Congo is praticularily horrible why don't they have a list of demands....? Or what about he Genghis Khan? he built a mountain of fucking skulls and threw so many books in Baghdad into the euphrates it was black. Why isn't Mongolia apologizing to the middle east? Or the italians to the British? You have to let the past be done with at some point...
IIRC the whole text book thing was less than 1% of the school systems text books (2 private schools or something) that failed anyways.
I think it's hilarious that xpace is from the US and calling people out on warcrimes. My Lai, Agent Orange, the obliteration of German population centers, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, killing of Japanese PoWs, Japanese trophies, the unrestricted navel warfare (that Donitz was convicted of at Nuremburg btw), the drone strikes in the middle east killing hundreds if not thousands of civilians. Where is that list at? Victors justice...
Excellent paragraph dedicated at an ad hominem attack. Are we talking about America's past? Is there widespread hatred for America in Vietnam? Are they burning American flags and destroying American-labeled or branded property? If there is, then we'll get to that discussion. Or is this justification stemming from the notion that if America can get away with it, Japan should follow suit? Enough with the deflections.
As for the portion I bolded in your post, it's blatantly obvious that you're oblivious to what's happening. It's quite sad, really, seeing as there are so many other posters with TL IDs from Japan similar to you that are giving more logical, and more importantly factual information. Here, some reading material for you:
Yes there is widespread animosity towards Americans in Vietnam actually. Many southerners feel betrayed by the US when they pulled out leaving them at the mercy of the communists and it is obvious why the north vietnamese/laos would dislike the US (hint it was the indiscriminate bombings and the Agent Orange that is still fucking people up today) So you admit that Americans got away with warcrimes then? I hate to break to to you but people are burning american flags all over the Middle East. How many protests are there in the middle east that are entirely anti american because of all the civilians dying? How is it an unrelated belief for you to be calling for Japan to humiliate themselves as an American who also have some of the most heinous war crimes in history on your hands to get off scot free? Do you not see how massively hypocritical your being?
You post a list of Japanese apologies from the people who were involved one of which was denied by McArthur which was a huge dick move by McArthur who was generally a dick head anyways. Isn't that what the Chinese wanted an apology?
@Azarkon, if that was posted in response to my "spite" comment, it doesn't really prove anything. Both sides have acted stubbornly in defense of their claim, but China has been more audacious in its shows of ownership and protest. As Orek said, I feel that China's move is opportunistic.
What is interesting is what US will do, should the tensions escalate to be an armed conflict. In 1960 they signed a treaty with Japan to help defend its territory. For me, it cant be a coincidence they are talking about placing missiles at this exact moment.
On the other hand US is the biggest importer of China goods. I wonder how they gonna work out those things.
On September 19 2012 03:55 Cedstick wrote: @Azarkon, if that was posted in response to my "spite" comment, it doesn't really prove anything. Both sides have acted stubbornly in defense of their claim, but China has been more audacious in its shows of ownership and protest. As Orek said, I feel that China's move is opportunistic.
It shows that the events weren't triggered by the Chinese government over a political ploy. Both sides of the dispute have been maneuvering for advantage over the last few years, but it was Ishihara's move back in April to buy the islands for the Tokyo Municipal Government that set the track for these protests and riots. At the time, every political commentator said that this was going to have consequences. Prior to it, the Japanese government had the ability to feign that, because the islands were privately owned, there was no official dispute over it.
With Ishihara's move, however, the islands became state owned. That brought the dispute to the geopolitical arena, and this is the result.
Japanese government wants DokDo (Liancourt Rocks) from Korea also. I understand that they feel the pressure from natural disasters to claim as much of the fishing rights and land outside of the sinking island, but they are going about the geopolitics in the worst way. Korea and China have helped Japan during the Tsunami disaster in 2011 with relief aid and harboring refugees. Have fun on your sinking ticking time bomb of an island.
PS The Japanese civilization has always looked to gain territoriality since the unification of power under Toyotomi Hideyoshi and have done many atrocious experiments, war crimes, and acts against humanity. It feels like poetic justice that their nation is literally sinking.
Well, if the islands were owned by an Okinawan in the first place, then just let them keep it. Praising war criminals as national heroes is stupid and should be reversed and condemned instead, but using that in order to take over Okinawan areas sounds pretty stupid too.
What I don't get is Taiwan's disposition on this whole matter.
...Oh, this is that buffoon Ishihara's doing. Why did Japan ever elect a self-confessed pedophile with no tact like him anyway?
On September 19 2012 03:55 Cedstick wrote: @Azarkon, if that was posted in response to my "spite" comment, it doesn't really prove anything. Both sides have acted stubbornly in defense of their claim, but China has been more audacious in its shows of ownership and protest. As Orek said, I feel that China's move is opportunistic.
It shows that the events weren't triggered by the Chinese government over a political ploy. Both sides of the dispute have been maneuvering for advantage over the last few years, but it was Ishihara's move back in April to buy the islands for the Tokyo Municipal Government that set the track for these protests and riots. At the time, every political commentator said that this was going to have consequences. Prior to it, the Japanese government had the ability to feign that, because the islands were privately owned, there was no official dispute over it.
With Ishihara's move, however, the islands became state owned. That brought the dispute to the geopolitical arena, and this is the result.
Who started the tension for the past several days? Directly, it is Ishihara's move. And such move is necessitated by Chinese move like this. And this blame game goes on and on... A is triggered by B. B is triggered by C. C is triggered by D...
Chinese boat intentionally colliding into Japanese Coastal Guard ships near Senkaku Islands. Part 1: + Show Spoiler +
EPT
