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On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument.
This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago)
And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities.
EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine. Japan is Chinas 3rd biggest trading partner, you think all these government officials and corporate execs really want this to happen if all they want is to 'get their slice of the cake'
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That's a non sequitur. In no way does a Chinese boat colliding with a Japanese patrol boat necessitate Ishihara's purchasing of the islands on behalf of the Tokyo Municipal Government. On the other hand, Ishihara knew what he was getting into when he made his move - he publicly stated that it was to protect Japan's territorial property, which obviously is going to piss off every other party involved in the dispute.
Both sides have been making provocations. But the nature of the provocations is different.
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I have no dog in the race and enjoy Japanese products. But I have a Chinese co-worker (30s) whose father lost four brothers during Second Sino-Japanese War. So I can understand why people are pissed (with or without government fueling the fire).
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On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine
Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing?
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On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing?
I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2
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On September 19 2012 04:16 Cattlecruiser wrote:
Japanese government wants DokDo (Liancourt Rocks) from Korea also. I understand that they feel the pressure from natural disasters to claim as much of the fishing rights and land outside of the sinking island, but they are going about the geopolitics in the worst way.
Korea and China have helped Japan during the Tsunami disaster in 2011 with relief aid and harboring refugees. Have fun on your sinking ticking time bomb of an island.
PS The Japanese civilization has always looked to gain territoriality since the unification of power under Toyotomi Hideyoshi and have done many atrocious experiments, war crimes, and acts against humanity. It feels like poetic justice that their nation is literally sinking.
On September 18 2012 18:27 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 17:22 Womwomwom wrote:On September 18 2012 17:18 Tal wrote:On September 18 2012 17:09 sharkie wrote:
Why is there so much hate for Japan?
Yes, they have committed atrocious things. But what country in the world has not? Japan's Rapes and Germany's Holocaust are "the most horrible" ones because they have lost the most recent war.
But we are talking about a country here who has SPENT BILLIONS of dollars supporting other countries in need. You think without Japan Southeast Asia would be as prosperous as it is today? It wouldn't be.
Southeast Asia loves to hate on Japan, yet they still have welcomed and KEEP welcoming Japan's money.
And no, they not only help with money but also by being helpful. How many nature catastrophes did we have in the last 10 years? Tons, from tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes. And which country has sent the most help in MONEY, RESOURCES and WORKERS in the world? Yes, it is Japan.
Just ask New Zealand. When the big earthquake happened in Japan, most helpers were still in New Zealand because they suffered huge damage from a earthquake prior to the big one.
Yes Japan's past is shameful, I feel huge remorse and the huge majority of Japan feels the same. So I ask again, why is there so much hate for Japan? Show me another country whose atrocities match Japan's. It's not unusual to support the area next to you who you can sell stuff to. Look at the rest of the worlds huge aid budgets. Japan isn't an outlier in that field. Why is there so much hate for Japan? Because Japan's remorse isn't demonstrated. It's not in its politics, or its culture. There are no monuments, except to the war criminals. That's why China and Korea keep so much hate - and when something like these islands comes up, throwing up the spectre of imperialism, they see it as a sign nothing has changed. Dokdo Island is a non-issue. If South Korea wants them, they bring it to the ICJ and Japan will lose. They haven't done this despite the fact Japan has submitted the case three times so far. In the case of China, I don't even think their claims exist within modern maritime law (which is also their justification for their hilarious boundaries in the South China Sea). No one wants to settle any of these issues so the status quo keeps spinning around. Treaty of San Francisco CHAPTER II TERRITORY U.S. Draft made on March 19, 1947 Article 4 Japan hereby renounces all rights and titles to Korea and all minor offshore Korean islands, including Quelpart Island, Port Hamilton, Dagelet Island (Utsuryo) Island and Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima).Reviced U.S.-U.K. Draft made on June 14, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan, recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet MY EDIT: Liancourt Rocks=Dokdo=Takeshima is removed from the list of islands that Japan has to renouce all right, title and claim to. Requests From Korea July 19, 1951 1.My Government requests that the word "renounces" in Paragraph a, Article Number 2, should be replaced by "confirms that it renounced on August 9,1945, all right, title and claim to Korea and the islands which were part of Korea prior to its annexation by Japan, including the island Quelpart, Port Hamilton, Dagelet, Dokdo and Parangdo." Rusk Documents August 10, 1951 As regards the island of Dokdo, otherwise known as Takeshima or Liancourt Rocks, this normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea. Final text of the treaty on September 8, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet. MY EDIT: Dok......do? Take.....shima? Liancourt.....Rocks? Sources: Draft Treaty of Peace With JapanIndex:Rusk note of 1951Let's just go to ICJ if Korea is so sure of winning the case ^^. Korean government doesn't want to because they know they would lose. Well, this was a bit off-topic as this thread is about anti-Japan protest in China, but in the context of territorial dispute in the region, maybe relevant enough.
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On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2
Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me.
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On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me.
I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial.
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On September 19 2012 05:03 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 04:16 Cattlecruiser wrote:
Japanese government wants DokDo (Liancourt Rocks) from Korea also. I understand that they feel the pressure from natural disasters to claim as much of the fishing rights and land outside of the sinking island, but they are going about the geopolitics in the worst way.
Korea and China have helped Japan during the Tsunami disaster in 2011 with relief aid and harboring refugees. Have fun on your sinking ticking time bomb of an island.
PS The Japanese civilization has always looked to gain territoriality since the unification of power under Toyotomi Hideyoshi and have done many atrocious experiments, war crimes, and acts against humanity. It feels like poetic justice that their nation is literally sinking. Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:27 Orek wrote:On September 18 2012 17:22 Womwomwom wrote:On September 18 2012 17:18 Tal wrote:On September 18 2012 17:09 sharkie wrote:
Why is there so much hate for Japan?
Yes, they have committed atrocious things. But what country in the world has not? Japan's Rapes and Germany's Holocaust are "the most horrible" ones because they have lost the most recent war.
But we are talking about a country here who has SPENT BILLIONS of dollars supporting other countries in need. You think without Japan Southeast Asia would be as prosperous as it is today? It wouldn't be.
Southeast Asia loves to hate on Japan, yet they still have welcomed and KEEP welcoming Japan's money.
And no, they not only help with money but also by being helpful. How many nature catastrophes did we have in the last 10 years? Tons, from tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes. And which country has sent the most help in MONEY, RESOURCES and WORKERS in the world? Yes, it is Japan.
Just ask New Zealand. When the big earthquake happened in Japan, most helpers were still in New Zealand because they suffered huge damage from a earthquake prior to the big one.
Yes Japan's past is shameful, I feel huge remorse and the huge majority of Japan feels the same. So I ask again, why is there so much hate for Japan? Show me another country whose atrocities match Japan's. It's not unusual to support the area next to you who you can sell stuff to. Look at the rest of the worlds huge aid budgets. Japan isn't an outlier in that field. Why is there so much hate for Japan? Because Japan's remorse isn't demonstrated. It's not in its politics, or its culture. There are no monuments, except to the war criminals. That's why China and Korea keep so much hate - and when something like these islands comes up, throwing up the spectre of imperialism, they see it as a sign nothing has changed. Dokdo Island is a non-issue. If South Korea wants them, they bring it to the ICJ and Japan will lose. They haven't done this despite the fact Japan has submitted the case three times so far. In the case of China, I don't even think their claims exist within modern maritime law (which is also their justification for their hilarious boundaries in the South China Sea). No one wants to settle any of these issues so the status quo keeps spinning around. Treaty of San Francisco CHAPTER II TERRITORY U.S. Draft made on March 19, 1947 Article 4 Japan hereby renounces all rights and titles to Korea and all minor offshore Korean islands, including Quelpart Island, Port Hamilton, Dagelet Island (Utsuryo) Island and Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima).Reviced U.S.-U.K. Draft made on June 14, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan, recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet MY EDIT: Liancourt Rocks=Dokdo=Takeshima is removed from the list of islands that Japan has to renouce all right, title and claim to. Requests From Korea July 19, 1951 1.My Government requests that the word "renounces" in Paragraph a, Article Number 2, should be replaced by "confirms that it renounced on August 9,1945, all right, title and claim to Korea and the islands which were part of Korea prior to its annexation by Japan, including the island Quelpart, Port Hamilton, Dagelet, Dokdo and Parangdo." Rusk Documents August 10, 1951 As regards the island of Dokdo, otherwise known as Takeshima or Liancourt Rocks, this normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea. Final text of the treaty on September 8, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet. MY EDIT: Dok......do? Take.....shima? Liancourt.....Rocks? Sources: Draft Treaty of Peace With JapanIndex:Rusk note of 1951Let's just go to ICJ if Korea is so sure of winning the case ^^. Korean government doesn't want to because they know they would lose. Well, this was a bit off-topic as this thread is about anti-Japan protest in China, but in the context of territorial dispute in the region, maybe relevant enough.
Why is US deciding which territory belongs to Japan which belongs to Korea? We are good at a lot of stuffs, but settling dispute has NOT being one of them...
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On September 19 2012 05:08 calderon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me. I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial.
I'm not arguing with you at all, I'm just stating points. I could quote the original post instead but don't like quotes that missing a chunk of the relevant conversation.
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On September 19 2012 05:09 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:03 Orek wrote:On September 19 2012 04:16 Cattlecruiser wrote:
Japanese government wants DokDo (Liancourt Rocks) from Korea also. I understand that they feel the pressure from natural disasters to claim as much of the fishing rights and land outside of the sinking island, but they are going about the geopolitics in the worst way.
Korea and China have helped Japan during the Tsunami disaster in 2011 with relief aid and harboring refugees. Have fun on your sinking ticking time bomb of an island.
PS The Japanese civilization has always looked to gain territoriality since the unification of power under Toyotomi Hideyoshi and have done many atrocious experiments, war crimes, and acts against humanity. It feels like poetic justice that their nation is literally sinking. On September 18 2012 18:27 Orek wrote:On September 18 2012 17:22 Womwomwom wrote:On September 18 2012 17:18 Tal wrote:On September 18 2012 17:09 sharkie wrote:
Why is there so much hate for Japan?
Yes, they have committed atrocious things. But what country in the world has not? Japan's Rapes and Germany's Holocaust are "the most horrible" ones because they have lost the most recent war.
But we are talking about a country here who has SPENT BILLIONS of dollars supporting other countries in need. You think without Japan Southeast Asia would be as prosperous as it is today? It wouldn't be.
Southeast Asia loves to hate on Japan, yet they still have welcomed and KEEP welcoming Japan's money.
And no, they not only help with money but also by being helpful. How many nature catastrophes did we have in the last 10 years? Tons, from tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes. And which country has sent the most help in MONEY, RESOURCES and WORKERS in the world? Yes, it is Japan.
Just ask New Zealand. When the big earthquake happened in Japan, most helpers were still in New Zealand because they suffered huge damage from a earthquake prior to the big one.
Yes Japan's past is shameful, I feel huge remorse and the huge majority of Japan feels the same. So I ask again, why is there so much hate for Japan? Show me another country whose atrocities match Japan's. It's not unusual to support the area next to you who you can sell stuff to. Look at the rest of the worlds huge aid budgets. Japan isn't an outlier in that field. Why is there so much hate for Japan? Because Japan's remorse isn't demonstrated. It's not in its politics, or its culture. There are no monuments, except to the war criminals. That's why China and Korea keep so much hate - and when something like these islands comes up, throwing up the spectre of imperialism, they see it as a sign nothing has changed. Dokdo Island is a non-issue. If South Korea wants them, they bring it to the ICJ and Japan will lose. They haven't done this despite the fact Japan has submitted the case three times so far. In the case of China, I don't even think their claims exist within modern maritime law (which is also their justification for their hilarious boundaries in the South China Sea). No one wants to settle any of these issues so the status quo keeps spinning around. Treaty of San Francisco CHAPTER II TERRITORY U.S. Draft made on March 19, 1947 Article 4 Japan hereby renounces all rights and titles to Korea and all minor offshore Korean islands, including Quelpart Island, Port Hamilton, Dagelet Island (Utsuryo) Island and Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima).Reviced U.S.-U.K. Draft made on June 14, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan, recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet MY EDIT: Liancourt Rocks=Dokdo=Takeshima is removed from the list of islands that Japan has to renouce all right, title and claim to. Requests From Korea July 19, 1951 1.My Government requests that the word "renounces" in Paragraph a, Article Number 2, should be replaced by "confirms that it renounced on August 9,1945, all right, title and claim to Korea and the islands which were part of Korea prior to its annexation by Japan, including the island Quelpart, Port Hamilton, Dagelet, Dokdo and Parangdo." Rusk Documents August 10, 1951 As regards the island of Dokdo, otherwise known as Takeshima or Liancourt Rocks, this normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea. Final text of the treaty on September 8, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet. MY EDIT: Dok......do? Take.....shima? Liancourt.....Rocks? Sources: Draft Treaty of Peace With JapanIndex:Rusk note of 1951Let's just go to ICJ if Korea is so sure of winning the case ^^. Korean government doesn't want to because they know they would lose. Well, this was a bit off-topic as this thread is about anti-Japan protest in China, but in the context of territorial dispute in the region, maybe relevant enough. Why is US deciding which territory belongs to Japan which belongs to Korea? We are good at a lot of stuffs, but settling dispute has NOT being one of them...
Well for one without the US there would be no South Korea, let alone a South Korean economy same with the Japanese economy post WWII and Korean armistice the USA poured shit tons of money into developing those counties so they wouldn't be attracted to war or communism. Part of what occurred during the US winning those wars was territorial disputes due to the nature of conquest. For the most part the US eventually let the people decided where they belong but for islands with no real native inhabitance countries squawked over.
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On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me.
First of foremost, the first statement is wrong. The second one is true though, it was a demonstration of the new weapon that "america" (actually not really) invented.
I already told you (at least i guess it was you): read up on that. Theres a reason Eisenhower, MacArthur, Leahy, Spaatz, Nimitz and so on (you know, kinda respected military persons) deemed the nukes unnecessary. Also, pullitzer-price winner and US-historian Martin Sherwin on that subject, especially the nagasaki-bomb: "at best it was pointless, at worst it was genocide".
Also, don't forget that the US denied the long-term-effects of the nukes, flatout lieing into the faces of the people who had to live there. Also, japan actually tried to surrender, and guess what: america altered the deal even further, making in virtually impossible for japan to surrender on normal terms. Of course, knowingly.
I can give you a tip about literature on that topic, as soon as im back home (titles are in german, need to search for the english ones).
I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial.
I would not even say that. America had its fair share of atrocities, in all wars.
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On September 19 2012 05:18 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:09 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:03 Orek wrote:On September 19 2012 04:16 Cattlecruiser wrote:
Japanese government wants DokDo (Liancourt Rocks) from Korea also. I understand that they feel the pressure from natural disasters to claim as much of the fishing rights and land outside of the sinking island, but they are going about the geopolitics in the worst way.
Korea and China have helped Japan during the Tsunami disaster in 2011 with relief aid and harboring refugees. Have fun on your sinking ticking time bomb of an island.
PS The Japanese civilization has always looked to gain territoriality since the unification of power under Toyotomi Hideyoshi and have done many atrocious experiments, war crimes, and acts against humanity. It feels like poetic justice that their nation is literally sinking. On September 18 2012 18:27 Orek wrote:On September 18 2012 17:22 Womwomwom wrote:On September 18 2012 17:18 Tal wrote:On September 18 2012 17:09 sharkie wrote:
Why is there so much hate for Japan?
Yes, they have committed atrocious things. But what country in the world has not? Japan's Rapes and Germany's Holocaust are "the most horrible" ones because they have lost the most recent war.
But we are talking about a country here who has SPENT BILLIONS of dollars supporting other countries in need. You think without Japan Southeast Asia would be as prosperous as it is today? It wouldn't be.
Southeast Asia loves to hate on Japan, yet they still have welcomed and KEEP welcoming Japan's money.
And no, they not only help with money but also by being helpful. How many nature catastrophes did we have in the last 10 years? Tons, from tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes. And which country has sent the most help in MONEY, RESOURCES and WORKERS in the world? Yes, it is Japan.
Just ask New Zealand. When the big earthquake happened in Japan, most helpers were still in New Zealand because they suffered huge damage from a earthquake prior to the big one.
Yes Japan's past is shameful, I feel huge remorse and the huge majority of Japan feels the same. So I ask again, why is there so much hate for Japan? Show me another country whose atrocities match Japan's. It's not unusual to support the area next to you who you can sell stuff to. Look at the rest of the worlds huge aid budgets. Japan isn't an outlier in that field. Why is there so much hate for Japan? Because Japan's remorse isn't demonstrated. It's not in its politics, or its culture. There are no monuments, except to the war criminals. That's why China and Korea keep so much hate - and when something like these islands comes up, throwing up the spectre of imperialism, they see it as a sign nothing has changed. Dokdo Island is a non-issue. If South Korea wants them, they bring it to the ICJ and Japan will lose. They haven't done this despite the fact Japan has submitted the case three times so far. In the case of China, I don't even think their claims exist within modern maritime law (which is also their justification for their hilarious boundaries in the South China Sea). No one wants to settle any of these issues so the status quo keeps spinning around. Treaty of San Francisco CHAPTER II TERRITORY U.S. Draft made on March 19, 1947 Article 4 Japan hereby renounces all rights and titles to Korea and all minor offshore Korean islands, including Quelpart Island, Port Hamilton, Dagelet Island (Utsuryo) Island and Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima).Reviced U.S.-U.K. Draft made on June 14, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan, recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet MY EDIT: Liancourt Rocks=Dokdo=Takeshima is removed from the list of islands that Japan has to renouce all right, title and claim to. Requests From Korea July 19, 1951 1.My Government requests that the word "renounces" in Paragraph a, Article Number 2, should be replaced by "confirms that it renounced on August 9,1945, all right, title and claim to Korea and the islands which were part of Korea prior to its annexation by Japan, including the island Quelpart, Port Hamilton, Dagelet, Dokdo and Parangdo." Rusk Documents August 10, 1951 As regards the island of Dokdo, otherwise known as Takeshima or Liancourt Rocks, this normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea. Final text of the treaty on September 8, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet. MY EDIT: Dok......do? Take.....shima? Liancourt.....Rocks? Sources: Draft Treaty of Peace With JapanIndex:Rusk note of 1951Let's just go to ICJ if Korea is so sure of winning the case ^^. Korean government doesn't want to because they know they would lose. Well, this was a bit off-topic as this thread is about anti-Japan protest in China, but in the context of territorial dispute in the region, maybe relevant enough. Why is US deciding which territory belongs to Japan which belongs to Korea? We are good at a lot of stuffs, but settling dispute has NOT being one of them... Well for one without the US there would be no South Korea, let alone a South Korean economy same with the Japanese economy post WWII and Korean armistice the USA poured shit tons of money into developing those counties so they wouldn't be attracted to war or communism. Part of what occurred during the US winning those wars was territorial disputes due to the nature of conquest. For the most part the US eventually let the people decided where they belong but for islands with no real native inhabitance countries squawked over.
Well, that's understandable. But it is funny that it's US making these treaties and not UN, which I assume the whole purpose of existence is to solve issues like those...
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On September 19 2012 05:03 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 04:16 Cattlecruiser wrote:
Japanese government wants DokDo (Liancourt Rocks) from Korea also. I understand that they feel the pressure from natural disasters to claim as much of the fishing rights and land outside of the sinking island, but they are going about the geopolitics in the worst way.
Korea and China have helped Japan during the Tsunami disaster in 2011 with relief aid and harboring refugees. Have fun on your sinking ticking time bomb of an island.
PS The Japanese civilization has always looked to gain territoriality since the unification of power under Toyotomi Hideyoshi and have done many atrocious experiments, war crimes, and acts against humanity. It feels like poetic justice that their nation is literally sinking. Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 18:27 Orek wrote:On September 18 2012 17:22 Womwomwom wrote:On September 18 2012 17:18 Tal wrote:On September 18 2012 17:09 sharkie wrote:
Why is there so much hate for Japan?
Yes, they have committed atrocious things. But what country in the world has not? Japan's Rapes and Germany's Holocaust are "the most horrible" ones because they have lost the most recent war.
But we are talking about a country here who has SPENT BILLIONS of dollars supporting other countries in need. You think without Japan Southeast Asia would be as prosperous as it is today? It wouldn't be.
Southeast Asia loves to hate on Japan, yet they still have welcomed and KEEP welcoming Japan's money.
And no, they not only help with money but also by being helpful. How many nature catastrophes did we have in the last 10 years? Tons, from tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes. And which country has sent the most help in MONEY, RESOURCES and WORKERS in the world? Yes, it is Japan.
Just ask New Zealand. When the big earthquake happened in Japan, most helpers were still in New Zealand because they suffered huge damage from a earthquake prior to the big one.
Yes Japan's past is shameful, I feel huge remorse and the huge majority of Japan feels the same. So I ask again, why is there so much hate for Japan? Show me another country whose atrocities match Japan's. It's not unusual to support the area next to you who you can sell stuff to. Look at the rest of the worlds huge aid budgets. Japan isn't an outlier in that field. Why is there so much hate for Japan? Because Japan's remorse isn't demonstrated. It's not in its politics, or its culture. There are no monuments, except to the war criminals. That's why China and Korea keep so much hate - and when something like these islands comes up, throwing up the spectre of imperialism, they see it as a sign nothing has changed. Dokdo Island is a non-issue. If South Korea wants them, they bring it to the ICJ and Japan will lose. They haven't done this despite the fact Japan has submitted the case three times so far. In the case of China, I don't even think their claims exist within modern maritime law (which is also their justification for their hilarious boundaries in the South China Sea). No one wants to settle any of these issues so the status quo keeps spinning around. Treaty of San Francisco CHAPTER II TERRITORY U.S. Draft made on March 19, 1947 Article 4 Japan hereby renounces all rights and titles to Korea and all minor offshore Korean islands, including Quelpart Island, Port Hamilton, Dagelet Island (Utsuryo) Island and Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima).Reviced U.S.-U.K. Draft made on June 14, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan, recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet MY EDIT: Liancourt Rocks=Dokdo=Takeshima is removed from the list of islands that Japan has to renouce all right, title and claim to. Requests From Korea July 19, 1951 1.My Government requests that the word "renounces" in Paragraph a, Article Number 2, should be replaced by "confirms that it renounced on August 9,1945, all right, title and claim to Korea and the islands which were part of Korea prior to its annexation by Japan, including the island Quelpart, Port Hamilton, Dagelet, Dokdo and Parangdo." Rusk Documents August 10, 1951 As regards the island of Dokdo, otherwise known as Takeshima or Liancourt Rocks, this normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shimane Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea. Final text of the treaty on September 8, 1951 Article 2 (a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet. MY EDIT: Dok......do? Take.....shima? Liancourt.....Rocks? Sources: Draft Treaty of Peace With JapanIndex:Rusk note of 1951Let's just go to ICJ if Korea is so sure of winning the case ^^. Korean government doesn't want to because they know they would lose. Well, this was a bit off-topic as this thread is about anti-Japan protest in China, but in the context of territorial dispute in the region, maybe relevant enough.
takeshima/dokdo not part of korea according to what record? the records support dokdo as korea's territory before annexation and japan's only claim is that to return the island wasnt included in the treaty. and if that claim somehow stands, no fucking doubt japan-korea relations will be zero because you're taking again what was korea's through "legal" means, its like a robber suing the homeowner because he got hurt while breaking in(which has happened in us court). and korea has nothing to gain going to icj, it only validates japan's claim, korea has alot to lose and nothing to gain meanwhile its win-win for japan.
i did research on this because i was curious and i say it without bias being korean. there are hazy maps that koreans say this proves korea's claim meanwhile japan refute korea's claim because the island names and position not matching but yet japan's evidence shows both, korea's and japan's and korea's maps show korea's, dokdo is visible from ulleungdo on a clear day just so you know, which japan claimed it isn't visible...yet there is a picture that proves it.
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On September 19 2012 05:22 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me. First of foremost, the first statement is wrong. The second one is true though, it was a demonstration of the new weapon that "america" (actually not really) invented. I already told you (at least i guess it was you): read up on that. Theres a reason Eisenhower, MacArthur, Leahy, Spaatz, Nimitz and so on (you know, kinda respected military persons) deemed the nukes unnecessary. Also, pullitzer-price winner and US-historian Martin Sherwin on that subject, especially the nagasaki-bomb: "at best it was pointless, at worst it was genocide". Also, don't forget that the US denied the long-term-effects of the nukes, flatout lieing into the faces of the people who had to live there. Also, japan actually tried to surrender, and guess what: america altered the deal even further, making in virtually impossible for japan to surrender on normal terms. Of course, knowingly. I can give you a tip about literature on that topic, as soon as im back home (titles are in german, need to search for the english ones). Show nested quote +I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial. I would not even say that. America had its fair share of atrocities, in all wars.
No offense... but German literature is not exactly where I would go to look for WWII tips...
Of course US did alot power moves, that's what countries do when winning. The term of surrender nullifies the power of Japanese Emperor, which is the symbol of Imperialistic Japan, it must had a reason, if not, tough, that's what you get when you wage war against humanity and then lose. Japan: convicted of War Crimes; US: not convicted of War Crimes. Difference.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:30 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:22 m4inbrain wrote:On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me. First of foremost, the first statement is wrong. The second one is true though, it was a demonstration of the new weapon that "america" (actually not really) invented. I already told you (at least i guess it was you): read up on that. Theres a reason Eisenhower, MacArthur, Leahy, Spaatz, Nimitz and so on (you know, kinda respected military persons) deemed the nukes unnecessary. Also, pullitzer-price winner and US-historian Martin Sherwin on that subject, especially the nagasaki-bomb: "at best it was pointless, at worst it was genocide". Also, don't forget that the US denied the long-term-effects of the nukes, flatout lieing into the faces of the people who had to live there. Also, japan actually tried to surrender, and guess what: america altered the deal even further, making in virtually impossible for japan to surrender on normal terms. Of course, knowingly. I can give you a tip about literature on that topic, as soon as im back home (titles are in german, need to search for the english ones). I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial. I would not even say that. America had its fair share of atrocities, in all wars. No offense... but German literature is not exactly where I would go to look for WWII tips... Of course US did alot power moves, that's what countries do when winning. The term of surrender nullifies the power of Japanese Emperor, which is the symbol of Imperialistic Japan, it must had a reason, if not, tough, that's what you get when you wage war against humanity and then lose. Japan: convicted of War Crimes; US: not convicted of War Crimes. Difference.
People also don't realize that the US dropped atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians. Not to mention firebombing Tokyo that killed hundreds of thousands more. This actually is a case where if Japan had won the war, there would be no doubt the American leaders in charge would be prosecuted of war crimes. Like m4inbrain said, there is doubt even whether the atomic bombs were necessary in ending the war, because the peace terms the Japanese were offering in early 1945 were suspiciously identical to the actual terms when Japan did surrender: http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html. Since you don't trust German sources (lol?), here is an American source for you.
Walter Trohan, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune with impeccable credentials for integrity and accuracy, reported that two days before President Roosevelt left for the Yalta conference with Churchill and Stalin in early February 1945, he was shown a forty-page memorandum drafted by General MacArthur outlining a Japanese offer for surrender almost identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, President Truman. The single difference was the Japanese insistence on retention of the emperor, which was not acceptable to the American strategists at the time, though it was ultimately allowed in the final peace terms.
They even got to keep their emperor, so there was no difference between the peace terms. Atomic bombs were done purely out of revenge.
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War crimes is a funny term.. War is a crime..
A crime within a crime was always a crime to begin with.
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On September 19 2012 05:39 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:30 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:22 m4inbrain wrote:On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me. First of foremost, the first statement is wrong. The second one is true though, it was a demonstration of the new weapon that "america" (actually not really) invented. I already told you (at least i guess it was you): read up on that. Theres a reason Eisenhower, MacArthur, Leahy, Spaatz, Nimitz and so on (you know, kinda respected military persons) deemed the nukes unnecessary. Also, pullitzer-price winner and US-historian Martin Sherwin on that subject, especially the nagasaki-bomb: "at best it was pointless, at worst it was genocide". Also, don't forget that the US denied the long-term-effects of the nukes, flatout lieing into the faces of the people who had to live there. Also, japan actually tried to surrender, and guess what: america altered the deal even further, making in virtually impossible for japan to surrender on normal terms. Of course, knowingly. I can give you a tip about literature on that topic, as soon as im back home (titles are in german, need to search for the english ones). I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial. I would not even say that. America had its fair share of atrocities, in all wars. No offense... but German literature is not exactly where I would go to look for WWII tips... Of course US did alot power moves, that's what countries do when winning. The term of surrender nullifies the power of Japanese Emperor, which is the symbol of Imperialistic Japan, it must had a reason, if not, tough, that's what you get when you wage war against humanity and then lose. Japan: convicted of War Crimes; US: not convicted of War Crimes. Difference. People also don't realize that the US dropped atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians. This actually is a case where if Japan had won the war, there would be no doubt the American leaders in charge would be prosecuted of war crimes. Not to mention firebombing Tokyo. Like m4inbrain said, there is doubt even whether the bombs were necessary in ending the war, because the peace terms the Japanese were offering in early 1945 were suspiciously identical to the actual terms when Japan did surrender: http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html. Since you don't trust German sources (lol?), here is an American source for you.
Of course we bombed shit out of stuff. That's war for you. What we didn't do is force women into sex slaves and go door by door and killing people just for "entertainment" and make s sports out of it, with award and stuff.
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On September 19 2012 05:39 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:30 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:22 m4inbrain wrote:On September 19 2012 05:06 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 05:01 calderon wrote:On September 19 2012 04:57 ragz_gt wrote:On September 19 2012 04:53 calderon wrote:On September 18 2012 23:51 Tobberoth wrote:
For any American whining about Japan not apologizing, ask yourself why the US has never apologized for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, then go take your hypocritical asses somewhere else. Same for Chinese who don't apologize for Tibet, or the hand they had in north korea.
Point being, there's no use arguing about it, because most countries have similar issues, shitty stuff they did in the past which they obviously don't feel like officially asking for forgiveness over. Would it be awesome if Japanese textbooks stopped lying about Nan King, created proper monuments for the victims they killed etc? Yeah, but the same is true for all those other countries and it isn't happening there, so don't make it your main point in an argument. This is the whole point fella, EVERYONE knows about the atomic bombings, who the fuck knows about the other atrocities Japan commited? No one. Hence the frustration from the vicitims and families of victims who are actually not too far removed from those crimes. (70 years ago) And I'm getting sick of this argument by trying to legitimize something because it may have been worse than another act. Atrocities are atrocities. EDIT: And yes the government may be using this sentiment for their own gains and agenda, but the feeling of angst amongst the public is genuine Japan was convinced of War Crimes, We did not. How is that the same thing? I'm on your side. I'm saying an apology isn't really what people want, its that they want the Japanese people to admit to the crimes they've done. What i'm saying is, its not like any American denies that they dropped the atomic bomb do they, which is what Japan does with all the crimes they committed in WW2 Of course, we dropped the bomb in order to end the war and estimated the cost of live of a mainland invasion would be much higher (and it scares the crap out of Russians), it sucks for people who got it, just like Dresden and other places that got leveled during WW2, but how is it compatible to War Crime committed by Japanese and Nazis is beyond me. First of foremost, the first statement is wrong. The second one is true though, it was a demonstration of the new weapon that "america" (actually not really) invented. I already told you (at least i guess it was you): read up on that. Theres a reason Eisenhower, MacArthur, Leahy, Spaatz, Nimitz and so on (you know, kinda respected military persons) deemed the nukes unnecessary. Also, pullitzer-price winner and US-historian Martin Sherwin on that subject, especially the nagasaki-bomb: "at best it was pointless, at worst it was genocide". Also, don't forget that the US denied the long-term-effects of the nukes, flatout lieing into the faces of the people who had to live there. Also, japan actually tried to surrender, and guess what: america altered the deal even further, making in virtually impossible for japan to surrender on normal terms. Of course, knowingly. I can give you a tip about literature on that topic, as soon as im back home (titles are in german, need to search for the english ones). I'm not even arguing against you? My point is agreeing with you, that Japan committed FAR WORSE acts, yet they are still in denial. I would not even say that. America had its fair share of atrocities, in all wars. No offense... but German literature is not exactly where I would go to look for WWII tips... Of course US did alot power moves, that's what countries do when winning. The term of surrender nullifies the power of Japanese Emperor, which is the symbol of Imperialistic Japan, it must had a reason, if not, tough, that's what you get when you wage war against humanity and then lose. Japan: convicted of War Crimes; US: not convicted of War Crimes. Difference. People also don't realize that the US dropped atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians. Not to mention firebombing Tokyo that killed hundreds of thousands more. This actually is a case where if Japan had won the war, there would be no doubt the American leaders in charge would be prosecuted of war crimes. Like m4inbrain said, there is doubt even whether the atomic bombs were necessary in ending the war, because the peace terms the Japanese were offering in early 1945 were suspiciously identical to the actual terms when Japan did surrender: http://www.hnn.us/articles/129964.html. Since you don't trust German sources (lol?), here is an American source for you.
America should never, ever apologize for the atomic bombs or firebombing Japan. Unconditional surrender from Japan was the only way to end the war, and that simply wasn't going to happen without all of the bombings or a costly invasion of the Japanese islands.
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The Chinese government is just glad to have the people angry at someone else... Just for reference the Tianemen Square massacre was a whole lot more recent than any Japanese/Chinese conflict. To this day, the government of the People's Republic of China continues to suppress public mention or discussion about the protests.
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EPT
