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U.S. ambassador to Libya killed in rocket attack - Page 43

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Please don't use this thread as a platform to argue about religion. -semioldguy
NesquiKGG
Profile Joined February 2012
100 Posts
September 20 2012 22:27 GMT
#841
On September 16 2012 22:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2012 12:42 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On September 16 2012 02:08 ranshaked wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:59 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:56 ranshaked wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:46 ranshaked wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:29 ranshaked wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Stop making generalization. If you make conclusions about "muslims" because of some idiots playing at Al Qaeda with black flags, you are the racist one.

There are 5-10% muslims in Western countries. That's millions and millions of people. An enormous majority doesn't support this shit, doesn't care that some idiot made some video and hate Al Qaeda just as you do.

Thinking that this is a justification for the huge amount of racism happening in your country and in mine towards Muslim and immigrants in general is plain wrong. I have muslim family, muslim friends, they are good, enlightened and loyal French citizens and people who, for a reason or another dislike them because of where they come from of the God they prey are just retards.

I don't feel that anybody should hate me because of what some Christian extremists might do. If a Muslim comes to me and say that Breivik is a reason why he hates me I will think he is both a racist and an idiot. Same here.



I believe the issue is that even moderate Muslims are not necessarily sympathizing with the extremists, but they also aren't condoning the extremists' action. With that said, why are there not more anti-extremist protests by Muslims?

I'm more worried about the lack of sympathy for freedom of speech, and the disappointing number of Muslims standing up against the extremists.

Because it has nothing to do with them?

Why a moderate muslim should be involved in a conflict involving a racist who say they are a cancer in our society and some people who go ape shit nuts with paranoid slogans in those demos?

By the way, why aren't you protesting against this video? If there are reasons to protest against those demos, I guess we should protest against this video.

Unless Muslims should protest because salafists killed someone in Lybia? Seems unreal.

It has everything to do with them. They consider themselves to be brothers of Islam, regardless of extremism or not. In America, we have the Westboro Baptist Church, which appear moderate compared to extreme Muslims, but when the WBC protests funerals and the streets you will see ten times their number as an opposition.

Muslims should be protesting to protect their religion and way of life from the extremists. When you sit quietly and show apathy toward the situation, all you do is hurt your chances at being understood by Western society. Think of it this way: When your family does something insane, cruel etc, you shun them, you distance yourself from that person and make sure they know what they've done is wrong. You don't stand there and do nothing, or completely ignore the situation.

The only people that can rid extremists are the moderates and progressives of that group.

As for the video, it's a freedom of speech issue. It isn't violence, it is just hate, but I can accept hate, I cannot accept violence.

Great. So since those demos are about hate and not violence, you should respect them and stick to your principles. They have nothing to do with the ambassador who got killed in a far away country by completely different people.

As for Muslims, I don't feel that I have to protest everytime some Christian nutcase does something stupid. I don't feel that any Christian is my "brother" and that I am responsible for their acts. Did you protest when Breivik killed 70 people? No. Why should my cousin protest because some people he despise killed someone for bad reason that he doesn't agree with in a country that is as far from him as Norway is from you? Why on EARTH should a European or American muslim protest and make demos because some salafists killed someone in Lybia?

That's fucking ridiculous.

Because there aren't hundreds of thousands of Breivik's, or mass murderers, but there are hundreds of thousands of extremist Muslims that want nothing more than the death of Western civilization...

These extremists cause problems and we have to stand against all of them, not just Muslims, but Christians etc.

We cannot continue to sit by and ignore it. How do you not see this? How do you not see how the extremists are ruining Muslim countries? You're completely missing the point.

There are quite a lot of people who have ideas I don't find much better than the ones of extremist Muslim. The whole Tea Party for example.

Extremist are ruining Muslim countries and Muslims life in our countries because people are not clever enough between a fraction of people and the immense majority who don't share any of those ideas. They just see "the Muslims" and dmix everything up.

The Tea Party isn't destroying their cities, or burning buildings, or killing innocent people. These protests are not peaceful, and should not be the reaction to a hate filled video. Nonetheless, I hope one day that we can all just get along, but that's a long stretch.


Anything to the right of a standard Euro social democratic party is barbarism in Biff's playbook, and he's not too sure about them either.

Muslim countries and too many Muslims outside of those countries are like the American South pre-1960s and the racist whites living there. In the South, there was a big minority of white people who thought segregation = great and we'll hurt anyone who tries to change it. Black kid looks at a white woman "wrong," let's beat him up and/or lynch him. Arrest black people if they try to enter the "white" area at the restaurant or on the bus or train or at a public bathroom. The majority of white people thought violence = not so great but segregation still = great, so they kept voting for politicians and appointing officials who'd turn a blind eye to the violence. And the underlying cause - racism - was never addressed. That's just the way things are in the South, Southern pride, don't lump them all in with the KKK, not all Southern whites are like that, the good whites (who were still racist and supported segregation) should be distinguished from the bad ones who kill people, blah blah blah blah. The majority created a society that allowed and encouraged the minority to be violent.

The bad things didn't stop happening until the rest of the US stopped buying the bullshit and said in court rulings and public opinion "this is bullshit and all of you bear responsibility for how your society runs and you're going to stop it or we'll stop it for you." And then we did. And there isn't legal segregation in the South anymore, and racism is not publicly socially acceptable.

Muslims have a responsibility to stop other Muslims from being racist, xenophobic, religiously supremacist and violent because of it; putting no pressure on the Muslim majority just ensures that the minority will continue to be violent and the majority will continue to maintain a society where the minority is allowed and encouraged to be violent.

No you really don't get it.

First of all black people situation improved because they fought. It's not white people who started protesting because a minority of white people were oppressing the blacks. It's Martin Luther King, it's the Black Panthers, although their choice of violence was regrettable, and civil rights movements that made the situation change. Not your average "good" white man. White men didn't care for most of them.

So your analogy is not only bad, it's plainly revisionist. Anyway.

My point is simple. There are something like a billion Muslims in the world.

The fact that some fuckers belonging to a branch of Islam that you don't belong to, that live 10 000 km away from you in a post revolutionary country that you have never even visited killed an ambassador in a riot is none of your fucking problem if you are an average moderate Muslim.

Do you make a protest when Americans kill or torture people in Afghanistan or Irak?

Did you protest after the Abu Ghraib scandal?
Did you protest when we have seen these helicopter soldier shooting civilians for fun?
Did you protest when american soldiers pissed on dead bodies?
Did you protest about waterboarding and use of torture by american army?
Do you protest when Israel kill palestinian or demolish their house?
Do you protest ... etc?

No. And you are perfectly right.

Why? Because the fact that some christian or some white people kill someone is not your fucking fault and has nothing to do with you. You are not responsible for what some extremist that happen to be of the same religion / ethnicity / whatever than you do.


Oh and yeah, in my playbook, far right people are barbarians. Le Pen is a barbarian, Santorum is a barbarian, Wilder is a barbarian. Just like those salafist idiots are barbarians too.

To explain you why, I'll leave you with one comment from Levy Strauss:

"The barbarian is the one who believes in barbary." And if you see a paradox, think again.



you're my fu**in hero! thank god for you!
I cheated on my fears, broke up with my doubts, got engaged to my faith and now I'm marrying my dreams.
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 05:56:57
September 21 2012 05:55 GMT
#842
On September 21 2012 07:27 NesquiKGG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2012 22:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 16 2012 12:42 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On September 16 2012 02:08 ranshaked wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:59 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:56 ranshaked wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:46 ranshaked wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 16 2012 01:29 ranshaked wrote:
[quote]


I believe the issue is that even moderate Muslims are not necessarily sympathizing with the extremists, but they also aren't condoning the extremists' action. With that said, why are there not more anti-extremist protests by Muslims?

I'm more worried about the lack of sympathy for freedom of speech, and the disappointing number of Muslims standing up against the extremists.

Because it has nothing to do with them?

Why a moderate muslim should be involved in a conflict involving a racist who say they are a cancer in our society and some people who go ape shit nuts with paranoid slogans in those demos?

By the way, why aren't you protesting against this video? If there are reasons to protest against those demos, I guess we should protest against this video.

Unless Muslims should protest because salafists killed someone in Lybia? Seems unreal.

It has everything to do with them. They consider themselves to be brothers of Islam, regardless of extremism or not. In America, we have the Westboro Baptist Church, which appear moderate compared to extreme Muslims, but when the WBC protests funerals and the streets you will see ten times their number as an opposition.

Muslims should be protesting to protect their religion and way of life from the extremists. When you sit quietly and show apathy toward the situation, all you do is hurt your chances at being understood by Western society. Think of it this way: When your family does something insane, cruel etc, you shun them, you distance yourself from that person and make sure they know what they've done is wrong. You don't stand there and do nothing, or completely ignore the situation.

The only people that can rid extremists are the moderates and progressives of that group.

As for the video, it's a freedom of speech issue. It isn't violence, it is just hate, but I can accept hate, I cannot accept violence.

Great. So since those demos are about hate and not violence, you should respect them and stick to your principles. They have nothing to do with the ambassador who got killed in a far away country by completely different people.

As for Muslims, I don't feel that I have to protest everytime some Christian nutcase does something stupid. I don't feel that any Christian is my "brother" and that I am responsible for their acts. Did you protest when Breivik killed 70 people? No. Why should my cousin protest because some people he despise killed someone for bad reason that he doesn't agree with in a country that is as far from him as Norway is from you? Why on EARTH should a European or American muslim protest and make demos because some salafists killed someone in Lybia?

That's fucking ridiculous.

Because there aren't hundreds of thousands of Breivik's, or mass murderers, but there are hundreds of thousands of extremist Muslims that want nothing more than the death of Western civilization...

These extremists cause problems and we have to stand against all of them, not just Muslims, but Christians etc.

We cannot continue to sit by and ignore it. How do you not see this? How do you not see how the extremists are ruining Muslim countries? You're completely missing the point.

There are quite a lot of people who have ideas I don't find much better than the ones of extremist Muslim. The whole Tea Party for example.

Extremist are ruining Muslim countries and Muslims life in our countries because people are not clever enough between a fraction of people and the immense majority who don't share any of those ideas. They just see "the Muslims" and dmix everything up.

The Tea Party isn't destroying their cities, or burning buildings, or killing innocent people. These protests are not peaceful, and should not be the reaction to a hate filled video. Nonetheless, I hope one day that we can all just get along, but that's a long stretch.


Anything to the right of a standard Euro social democratic party is barbarism in Biff's playbook, and he's not too sure about them either.

Muslim countries and too many Muslims outside of those countries are like the American South pre-1960s and the racist whites living there. In the South, there was a big minority of white people who thought segregation = great and we'll hurt anyone who tries to change it. Black kid looks at a white woman "wrong," let's beat him up and/or lynch him. Arrest black people if they try to enter the "white" area at the restaurant or on the bus or train or at a public bathroom. The majority of white people thought violence = not so great but segregation still = great, so they kept voting for politicians and appointing officials who'd turn a blind eye to the violence. And the underlying cause - racism - was never addressed. That's just the way things are in the South, Southern pride, don't lump them all in with the KKK, not all Southern whites are like that, the good whites (who were still racist and supported segregation) should be distinguished from the bad ones who kill people, blah blah blah blah. The majority created a society that allowed and encouraged the minority to be violent.

The bad things didn't stop happening until the rest of the US stopped buying the bullshit and said in court rulings and public opinion "this is bullshit and all of you bear responsibility for how your society runs and you're going to stop it or we'll stop it for you." And then we did. And there isn't legal segregation in the South anymore, and racism is not publicly socially acceptable.

Muslims have a responsibility to stop other Muslims from being racist, xenophobic, religiously supremacist and violent because of it; putting no pressure on the Muslim majority just ensures that the minority will continue to be violent and the majority will continue to maintain a society where the minority is allowed and encouraged to be violent.

No you really don't get it.

First of all black people situation improved because they fought. It's not white people who started protesting because a minority of white people were oppressing the blacks. It's Martin Luther King, it's the Black Panthers, although their choice of violence was regrettable, and civil rights movements that made the situation change. Not your average "good" white man. White men didn't care for most of them.

So your analogy is not only bad, it's plainly revisionist. Anyway.

My point is simple. There are something like a billion Muslims in the world.

The fact that some fuckers belonging to a branch of Islam that you don't belong to, that live 10 000 km away from you in a post revolutionary country that you have never even visited killed an ambassador in a riot is none of your fucking problem if you are an average moderate Muslim.

Do you make a protest when Americans kill or torture people in Afghanistan or Irak?

Did you protest after the Abu Ghraib scandal?
Did you protest when we have seen these helicopter soldier shooting civilians for fun?
Did you protest when american soldiers pissed on dead bodies?
Did you protest about waterboarding and use of torture by american army?
Do you protest when Israel kill palestinian or demolish their house?
Do you protest ... etc?

No. And you are perfectly right.

Why? Because the fact that some christian or some white people kill someone is not your fucking fault and has nothing to do with you. You are not responsible for what some extremist that happen to be of the same religion / ethnicity / whatever than you do.


Oh and yeah, in my playbook, far right people are barbarians. Le Pen is a barbarian, Santorum is a barbarian, Wilder is a barbarian. Just like those salafist idiots are barbarians too.

To explain you why, I'll leave you with one comment from Levy Strauss:

"The barbarian is the one who believes in barbary." And if you see a paradox, think again.



you're my fu**in hero! thank god for you!

Not so hasty, young Iraqi . First you must listen to your ancient king . My most common online username is Bolts / sdbolts, so I guess you should listen to your ancient thunder god as well (Marduk).

While Biff is correct in pointing out the general complacency in protesting against injustices, there is a prime difference between Arab folks and African-Americans. The overarching goal of African-Americans in the US was to not be treated like 3rd-class citizens (where laws were in place to discriminate against them) in the South and 2nd-class citizens outside of the South where less formal prejudice would take place.
The Arabs, even many groups within each country, have many goals, and for the most part they have been the goal of Islamification, which is a terrible and abominable one. Look at your own country. 30 years ago, an extremely secular society. Khomeini corrupts some of the Shi'a, and by today, many of them are fundies, and it has spread to other groups as well. It is absolutely disgusting, but completely representative of the current trend in the Middle East since Khomeini's takeover in Iran.

On top of that, the Iraqi Christians have either been killed off or dispersed to foreign countries, or to the towns in the northern part of the country, almost eliminating the "home" ethnicity of Assyrians and Chaldeans. Apparently this has been one of the other goals of many Arab "activists", unfortunately. Meanwhile, Copts live in fear that the Muslim Broterhood seize actual power in Egypt (the military is still actually in power) and begin persecuting them, and Maronites and other Lebanese Christians fear the growing influence of Hezbollah.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
September 22 2012 03:25 GMT
#843
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/22/us-protests-benghazi-idUSBRE88L02A20120922

A Libyan Islamist militia was swept out of the eastern city of Benghazi in a popular protest against the armed groups that ran into the early hours of Saturday morning, Reuters witnesses said.


I'm glad this happened. They went out of their way to prove there's some good in this shitty world.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-22 08:43:26
September 22 2012 08:43 GMT
#844
On September 22 2012 12:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/22/us-protests-benghazi-idUSBRE88L02A20120922

Show nested quote +
A Libyan Islamist militia was swept out of the eastern city of Benghazi in a popular protest against the armed groups that ran into the early hours of Saturday morning, Reuters witnesses said.


I'm glad this happened. They went out of their way to prove there's some good in this shitty world.

Well, I didn't think I'd see this happening in a million years.

Good for them.
Nightfall.589
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada766 Posts
September 22 2012 16:14 GMT
#845
http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/21/a_funny_thing_happened_on_the_way_to_muslimrage

Oddly enough, most Muslims have plenty of things to do. Most of which have nothing to do with the destruction of the West.

But with the rhetoric that we produce against them, one would never think that...
Proof by Legislation: An entire body of (sort-of) elected officials is more correct than all of the known laws of physics, math and science as a whole. -Scott McIntyre
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-22 18:20:06
September 22 2012 18:19 GMT
#846
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19687386
Railways Minister Ghulam Ahmad Bilour told reporters that he would pay the reward for the "sacred duty" out of his own pocket.

"I announce today that this blasphemer who has abused the holy prophet, if somebody will kill him, I will give that person a prize of $100,000," the minister said.

It seems the Pakistani government has been infiltrated by crazy extreme Muslims. Or maybe it's not so crazy for some Muslims, like a legitimate government minister, to believe this.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-23 03:57:40
September 23 2012 03:56 GMT
#847
Authorities in Libya have announced a decision to dissolve all militias and armed groups that did not come under the authority of the state after the fall of Muammar Gaddafi, state media reports.

The announcement was made by Mohammed al-Megarief, the head of the Libyan national assembly, late on Saturday during a press conference.

"We're disbanding all the armed groups that do not fall under the authority of the government. We're also banning the use of violence and carrying of weapons in public places. It's also illegal to set up checkpoints. We've instructed the appropriate government agencies to ensure that these directives are implemented," he said.

The authorities also decided to put in place an "operations room" in Benghazi bringing together the army, forces of the interior ministry and defence ministry brigades comprising former rebels.

They have called on the army to impose its authority by putting its own officers at the head of brigades born out of the 2011 revolt, which escalated into civil war and toppled Gaddafi's government.

The announcement of the ban came hours after two armed groups said they would lay down their weapons and leave their bases in the eastern city of Derna.

Derna residents say five military camps are now empty, after Abu Slim and Ansar al-Sharia, the two main militias in the area, withdrew.

"Abu Slim had three camps and Ansar al-Sharia had two. So it's five. Empty. All empty," Siraj Shennib, a 29-year-old linguistics professor who has been part of protests against the militia, told the Reuters news agency by telephone.

The Abu Slim and Ansar al-Sharia decisions were said to have been motivated by events in Benghazi on Friday.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
October 10 2012 20:00 GMT
#848
There was no protest at the compound prior to the attack.
Prior to the attack on the U.S. mission in Benghazi late in the evening on Sept. 11, there was no protest outside the compound, a senior State Department official confirmed today, contradicting initial administration statements suggesting that the attack was an opportunistic reaction to unrest caused by an anti-Islam video.

In a conference call with reporters Tuesday, two senior State Department officials gave a detailed accounting of the events that lead to the death of Amb. Chris Stevens and three other Americans. The officials said that prior to the massive attack on the Benghazi compound by dozens of militants carrying heavy weaponry, there was no unrest outside the walls of the compound and no protest that anyone inside the compound was aware of.

In fact, Stevens hosted a series of meetings on the compound throughout the day, ending with a meeting with a Turkish diplomat that began at 7:30 in the evening, and all was quiet in the area.

"The ambassador walked guests out at 8:30 or so; there was nobody on the street. Then at 9:40 they saw on the security cameras that there were armed men invading the compound," a senior State Department official said. "Everything is calm at 8:30 pm, there is nothing unusual. There had been nothing unusual during the day outside."
Foreign Policy Report


The State Department denies that it ever claimed it was a protest due to a YouTube video that took place.
The State Department says it never concluded that an attack that killed the U.S. ambassador to Libya was simply a protest gone awry, a statement that places the Obama administration’s own foreign policy arm in sync with Republicans.

That extraordinary message, appearing to question the administration’s initial description of the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, came in a department briefing Tuesday — a day before a hearing on diplomatic security in Libya was to be held by the Republican-led House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

The committee’s chairman, Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., has accused the State Department of turning aside pleas from its diplomats in Libya to increase security in the months and weeks before Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans died in the Sept. 11 attack in Benghazi. One scheduled witness Wednesday, Eric Nordstrom, is the former chief security officer for U.S. diplomats in Libya who told the committee his pleas for more security were ignored.

Briefing reporters Tuesday ahead of the hearing, department officials were asked about the administration’s initial — and since retracted — explanation linking the violence to protests over an American-made anti-Muslim video circulating on the Internet. One official responded, “That was not our conclusion.” He called it a question for “others” to answer, without specifying.
AP Report


Pentagon confirms the attack was pre-planned by terrorist organization, Democrats join Republicans in criticizing Obama administration.
Senate Democrats joined Republicans Thursday in questioning the Obama administration's handling of the fatal Sept. 11 attack on the U.S. consulate in Libya and why the administration refused for days to acknowledge that it was a terrorist attack linked to al Qaeda.

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee, chaired by Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., circulated a bipartisan letter addressed to Deputy Secretary of State Thomas Nides, asking for an "accounting of the attacks against U.S. missions in Egypt, Libya and Yemen," according to a copy obtained by The Washington Examiner.

The lawmakers are also demanding to know whether the administration had any advance warnings of the Libyan attack and, if so, whether it had shared that information with U.S. personnel on the ground.

President Obama came under intense criticism because the administration's explanation for what happened at the U.S. consulate in Benghazi kept changing. For days, the administration insisted to the public and Congress that the attack was a spontaneous reaction to an American-made anti-Muslim video. As recently as Tuesday, in an address to the United Nations, Obama was blaming the video for inciting the attack.

But as evidence came to light showing that mortar rounds had been fired into the U.S. compound and that the attack had been carefully planned, the administration's explanation changed. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton first suggested in a high-level meeting at the U.N. that there could be a link between al Qaeda and "other violent extremists" and the attack in Benghazi.

On Thursday, the Pentagon confirmed that the attack was the work of a terrorist organization and not related to the anti-Muslim video.

"It was a terrorist attack," Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said at a news conference.

The Obama administration clearly had been hoping that the Libya attack would fade in the public's consciousness, said James Carafano, a defense expert at the conservative Heritage Foundation. With congressional Democrats now also questioning how events unfolded, however, that's not likely to happen.

"Their hope was that on Monday, when the facts started to come out, everyone would have moved on, and that was a miscalculation on their part," Carafano said. "The one thing you can't do is have people intentionally lying to Congress or withholding information from Congress and then think you are not going to pay a price for that."
Washington Examiner


Claims are rising that the Obama administration intentionally misled the people regarding attack.
The Obama administration's lies about the Benghazi attack continue to unravel. The President would like us to believe that he and his spokespeople have merely passed on the best intelligence they had as it evolved. But the State Department said yesterday that it never concluded that there was a protest outside the consulate.

For seven days after the attack, the Obama administration clung to its YouTube protest fiction. Then, the White House claimed to have received new information that the attack was terrorism, planned in advance and unrelated to a protest. Yesterday's State Department admission reveals this "evolving intelligence" claim to be yet another lie.

Within 24 hours of the attack, U.S. intelligence suspected that it was terrorism linked to Al Qaeda. At the time, the Obama administration was still claiming it was merely a spontaneous protest that got out of hand.

By September 13, the President had internally designated the attack an act of terrorism so that he would have the legal authority to mobilize military and intelligence assets. But, for the next five days, his spokespeople, most notably Press Secretary Jay Carney and U.N. Ambassador Rice, continued to insist that the attack started as a protest.

The State Department is now saying that, like the intelligence agencies, it never concluded that the attack grew out of a protest. So why did the Obama administration continue to tell the protest lie to the public for a week after the attack?

I'll tell you why.

The President would have been in a tough spot if he had admitted at the time of the attack and murder of a U.S. ambassador that it was Al Qaeda-linked terrorism. After all, he had, only five days earlier, boasted at the Democratic National Convention that "Al-Qaeda is on the path to defeat."

A disaster like the premeditated slaying of a U.S. ambassador would also call into question Obama's entire Libyan adventure. In truth, the very act of toppling Gaddafi made the region less safe, less stable, and less manageable. And responsibility for that lies solely with President Obama, since he failed even to ask Congress for authorization to attack Libya.

To avoid the indignity of being called to account for his own failed policies, the President and his staff concocted a lie. It was a plausible lie, though it rested on the absurd stereotype that Middle Eastern mobs carry mortars with them. But it was a lie and it was designed to direct the public's attentions away from Obama's own failures.
Daily News Blog
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Joedaddy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-19 07:11:35
October 19 2012 07:06 GMT
#849


This seems relevant given all of the new developments on this recently. Its absolutely mind boggling how our government threw the creator of "The Video" under the bus, what I believe, to be a diversion tactic for the upcoming election.

edit: wth.. video isn't showing up in post? =/
I might be the minority on TL, but TL is the minority everywhere else.
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-19 09:03:53
October 19 2012 09:03 GMT
#850
I don't entirely follow.

I thought it was already known that the attack was not connected to the protest? Are they suggesting there was no protest in the first place, only an attack?

Then who was dragging his corpse through the streets?
solidbebe
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4921 Posts
October 19 2012 09:22 GMT
#851
On October 19 2012 18:03 zalz wrote:
I don't entirely follow.

I thought it was already known that the attack was not connected to the protest? Are they suggesting there was no protest in the first place, only an attack?

Then who was dragging his corpse through the streets?

I think people were trying to get him medical attention, not dragging him around.
That's the 2nd time in a week I've seen someone sig a quote from this GD and I have never witnessed a sig quote happen in my TL history ever before. -Najda
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
October 19 2012 11:41 GMT
#852
On October 19 2012 18:22 solidbebe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2012 18:03 zalz wrote:
I don't entirely follow.

I thought it was already known that the attack was not connected to the protest? Are they suggesting there was no protest in the first place, only an attack?

Then who was dragging his corpse through the streets?

I think people were trying to get him medical attention, not dragging him around.


I thought that was just the left-wing reading.

Either way, still doesn't really explain where the crowd, dangerous or helpful, came from, if there wasn't a protest.

Really doubt a crowd of people is going to run towards an embassy being attacked, fight off Al-Qaeda, and save a guy that most of them probably couldn't identify as someone important.

Either way, still don't really get what changed atm.
Joedaddy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-19 12:08:37
October 19 2012 12:07 GMT
#853
On October 19 2012 20:41 zalz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2012 18:22 solidbebe wrote:
On October 19 2012 18:03 zalz wrote:
I don't entirely follow.

I thought it was already known that the attack was not connected to the protest? Are they suggesting there was no protest in the first place, only an attack?

Then who was dragging his corpse through the streets?

I think people were trying to get him medical attention, not dragging him around.


I thought that was just the left-wing reading.

Either way, still doesn't really explain where the crowd, dangerous or helpful, came from, if there wasn't a protest.

Really doubt a crowd of people is going to run towards an embassy being attacked, fight off Al-Qaeda, and save a guy that most of them probably couldn't identify as someone important.

Either way, still don't really get what changed atm.


Its been confirmed that there is a surveillance tape of the outside of the compound. Its also been confirmed by state department officials that there was no protest/riot going on outside of the embassy prior to the attack.

As far as crowds and "disaster" situations go, its not unreasonable to think that a group of people showed up to offer assistance after the attack. People help people in emergency situations all the time, and even more people will stand for hours just to gawk at destruction.

At best, this administration showed an extreme lack of competency in their handling of the situation. At worst, they knew all a long that "The Video" had absolutely nothing to do with it and outright lied to the world and the American people in what could prove to be the biggest presidential scandal since watergate.

Either way, I think our government owes the maker of the video a formal apology. Blaming an act of terror on a private citizen before getting all of your facts straight is disgustingly short sighted and irresponsible. I can't even imagine the mental anguish and guilt he must have felt after being told the blood of innocents was on his hands because of a satirical movie he made in jest.


I might be the minority on TL, but TL is the minority everywhere else.
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
October 19 2012 12:29 GMT
#854
Well, I don't think the movie-man really feels too bad about the whole thing, it kind of was his goal to get a rise out of people. Not that that justifies censorship, in fact, I was one of the more vocal defenders of his right to make shitty movies.

But I agree that it is rather disturbing if it turns out that the government deflected attention towards a private citizen for political gain.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
October 19 2012 15:30 GMT
#855
Just as a historical note, Biff doesn't know what the hell he's talking about in this quote:

No you really don't get it.

First of all black people situation improved because they fought. It's not white people who started protesting because a minority of white people were oppressing the blacks. It's Martin Luther King, it's the Black Panthers, although their choice of violence was regrettable, and civil rights movements that made the situation change. Not your average "good" white man. White men didn't care for most of them.

So your analogy is not only bad, it's plainly revisionist. Anyway.


No, you really don't get it, because you're ignorant.

The civil rights movement in the southern United States had no victories in the 1950s that did not come from white (Northern) men: Brown v. Board of Education, integration at Little Rock with the 82nd Airborne protecting black students, etc.

The non-violent protest approach of the SCLC was getting very few results from the entrenched, institutional racism of southern society. Four events changed the dynamic. (Not listed in chronological order)

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_civil_rights_workers'_murders
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_march
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing

Each of these incidents had a serious impact on whites in the North. You try to diminish the credit whites should get because according to you "we didn't start" protesting segregation. Well, if you weren't ignorant, you'd realize that the (white) Catholic Church (and a few Protestant denominations) was about the only formal institution in the South for decades other than the NAACP that was anti-racist.

The civil rights campaign was not succeeding against the racist white majority in the South until the white people (in the North) who you say "didn't care" for most of "them" (black people I presume) started putting pressure on their politicians and giving aid to the black civil rights organizations. Your mention of the Black Panther Party is both illuminating and funny, as no group other than the KKK did more to poison race relations and sour the end (and aftermath) of the civil rights era than the BPP.

There is no way that blacks could have gotten equality under the law if they did not have significant help from whites. Blacks had been trying to do it mostly on their own since 1865 and the racist whites were too numerous and too strong. They needed help and we gladly gave it, so please don't shit on us because of your ideologically-driven racial prism.

Muslim societies that are similarly violent and xenophobic and supremacist to the American South aren't right next door, they're ten thousand miles away. We need the help of Muslims here and there who aren't barbarians to change those societies so they stop pumping out so many Jew-hating murder lovers. We need their help to stop Muslims here who support the barbaric ones there. Defensive statements about how of course we condemn violence don't really mean much when it seems like most every Muslim civic organization in this country (and other Western ones) has shady ties to organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, or guys like Sheikh Rahman or that hook guy in Britain (he's not there anymore) were the top preachers at mosques that seemed quite popular in their communities, teaching jihad and running plots in the back rooms.

If you don't want (some) Muslims (in enough numbers to destabilize countries) to still be pissed off at everyone who isn't as medieval as they are 50 years from now, you need to be putting pressure on the other Muslims to stop allowing organizations like Hezbollah to exist. If peaceful moderate Muslims are the great majority, it shouldn't be too hard for them to root out this violent minority, right?
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Joedaddy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-29 22:59:35
October 29 2012 22:56 GMT
#856
Its mind boggling to me how this story is being completely swept under the rug, and even more disgusting how our government hung the film maker out to dry just to cover up a terrorist attack. This man deserves some sort of compensation considering how much these allegations have undoubtedly impacted his life.

One of the worst cover ups since water gate.
I might be the minority on TL, but TL is the minority everywhere else.
HeartOfTheSwarm
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
Niue585 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 09:04:53
September 05 2013 09:04 GMT
#857
US security flaws exposed in Libya
The US Department of State has known for decades that inadequate security at embassies and consulates worldwide could lead to tragedy, but senior officials ignored the warnings and left some of America's most dangerous diplomatic posts vulnerable to attack, according to an internal government report obtained exclusively by Al Jazeera's Investigative Unit.

The report by an independent panel of five security and intelligence experts describes how the September 11, 2012, attack on the US Special Mission in Benghazi, Libya, which left Ambassador J Christopher Stevens and three other Americans dead, exploited the State Department's failure to address serious security concerns at diplomatic facilities in high-risk areas.

Among the most damning assessments, the panel concluded that the State Department's failure to identify worsening conditions in Libya and exemptions from security regulations at the US Special Mission contributed to the tragedy in Benghazi. Undersecretary for Management Patrick Kennedy approved using Benghazi as a temporary post despite its significant vulnerabilities, according to an internal State Department document included with the report.
Exclusive: Experts report on Benghazi tragedy

Recommend reading the whole article on Al Jazeera
"I do not join. I lead." - Queen of Blades
Dogfoodboy16
Profile Joined October 2013
364 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-28 03:42:50
October 28 2013 02:44 GMT
#858
60 Minutes released their in depth investigation of what happened in Libya. The testimonials of the security team on the scene was riveting.





Also, Vanity Fair wrote an excellent piece on the attack on the compound, a sort of minute-by-minute play through. It's filled with military lingo, a great read if you're an armchair general like me.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2013/08/Benghazi-book-fred-burton-samuel-m-katz
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 04 2013 23:49 GMT
#859
NEW YORK -- Security officer Dylan Davies admitted this weekend that he lied to a superior in September 2012 about his whereabouts the night of the Benghazi attack. But Davies says his latest version of events, told on CBS' "60 Minutes" and in a new memoir, are true.

“I am just a little man against some big people here,” Davies told The Daily Beast in an interview published Saturday, suggesting he was the victim of a smear campaign.

Davies’ account of the night four Americans, including Ambassador Christopher Stevens, were killed in a terrorist attack on the U.S. diplomatic outpost in Benghazi has been challenged since he appeared Oct. 27 on “60 Minutes,” in an interview CBS billed as “the first eyewitness account from a westerner” on the ground that night.

The Washington Post revealed on Thursday that Davies once provided a different account of the events. The Post reported that Davies previously claimed to have never reached the compound on the night of the attack, saying he only arrived the day after. But in the version he relayed on “60 Minutes,” as well as in a new memoir published under a pseudonym, Davies arrives at the compound as the battle rages on and tangles with a terrorist.

Davies' admission that he changed his story raises several questions for "60 Minutes." Did the program know Davies once told a superior that he didn't reach the compound? If not, will the network revisit the story? And if so, how did "60 Minutes" vet its eyewitness to be sure he's now providing an accurate version of events?

A spokesman for the program, Kevin Tedesco, stood by the Davies interview when reached by The Washington Post. Tedesco has not responded to repeated requests from The Huffington Post to discuss it.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 08 2013 02:32 GMT
#860
In the possible first sign of a major climbdown, "60 Minutes" announced Thursday night that it is "reviewing" its controversial report on the Benghazi attacks after finding what reports say is further evidence that one of its main sources changed his account of events repeatedly.

The CBS program came under repeated criticism after it was revealed that the source—a security officer named Dylan Davies who provided correspondent Lara Logan with an eye-popping, made-for-TV account of the tragic events in Benghazi—had previously lied about his whereabouts on the night of the attack, throwing into question whether the story he told to "60 Minutes" could be trusted.

"60 Minutes" initially defended itself, with the show's executive producer Jeff Fager telling HuffPost's Michael Calderone that he was "proud" of the report and Logan attributing the scrutiny to political partisanship.

However, on Thursday night, the show issued a statement saying that it had found new information. Using Davies' pseudonym, Morgan Jones, "60 Minutes" said it was looking to see whether it had been lied to:

60 Minutes has learned of new information that undercuts the account told to us by Morgan Jones of his actions on the night of the attack on the Benghazi compound.
We are currently looking into this serious matter to determine if he misled us, and if so, we will make a correction.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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