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Please don't use this thread as a platform to argue about religion. -semioldguy |
On September 13 2012 17:43 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 17:30 Zarahtra wrote:On September 13 2012 15:35 starfries wrote:
I think a better way to precipitate real change is to cater to the more level-headed majority. if we show them they have no reason to hate us, then less people will support violent extremist movements. the ones that are left will lack influence and the resources to pull off major acts of terrorism. I mean, your average Muslim in America is not going to shoot you for drawing a picture of Mohammed - but it's not because you've been taunting him with pictures of Mohammed every week. it's because he knows you're just a guy like he is, not some kind of monster. This I feel is a very good post. I feel the western world(and USA in particular) need to realize this and stop creating ammunition for the terrorist groups to then fuel in the heart of just the average muslim(and arab too). The obvious sad part about it is, there is really no short term solution to do this. At some point, western world needs to just step up and be the bigger man. So when people suicide bomb you for drawing their prophet, you think the solution is to stop drawing their prophet? How about when they then proceed to suicide bomb you for opposing their political interests, will you do what they want? How about when they suicide bomb you for not worshipping their deity, will you convert? At what point will you realize that the cowardly strategy of appeasement simply boils down to giving violent criminals what they want out of fear?
I'm not saying that you should refrain from that. The solution isn't to tip toe around certain ethnic groups, but it most certainly isn't about bombing everyone between yourself and a terrorist organisation. My point is, going into countries, killing civilians and going "woops" doesn't help.
I feel you are acting like muslims as a whole are evil human beings that cannot be reasoned with. That's just shortsighted, like I said, they have a very good reason to hate the western world, and we need to stop giving them the reason. If we don't, there will always be a minority of truly evil people that will keep exploiting that hate and getting those people armed. Now you tell me, if I killed your mother and you had a gun in your hand, would I walk away alive?
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Embassy in Saana, Yemen, is/was also stormed today (personel is save).
The article is in german so i won't link it... Seems like this is not over yet.
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On September 13 2012 18:07 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 17:43 sunprince wrote:On September 13 2012 17:30 Zarahtra wrote:On September 13 2012 15:35 starfries wrote:
I think a better way to precipitate real change is to cater to the more level-headed majority. if we show them they have no reason to hate us, then less people will support violent extremist movements. the ones that are left will lack influence and the resources to pull off major acts of terrorism. I mean, your average Muslim in America is not going to shoot you for drawing a picture of Mohammed - but it's not because you've been taunting him with pictures of Mohammed every week. it's because he knows you're just a guy like he is, not some kind of monster. This I feel is a very good post. I feel the western world(and USA in particular) need to realize this and stop creating ammunition for the terrorist groups to then fuel in the heart of just the average muslim(and arab too). The obvious sad part about it is, there is really no short term solution to do this. At some point, western world needs to just step up and be the bigger man. So when people suicide bomb you for drawing their prophet, you think the solution is to stop drawing their prophet? How about when they then proceed to suicide bomb you for opposing their political interests, will you do what they want? How about when they suicide bomb you for not worshipping their deity, will you convert? At what point will you realize that the cowardly strategy of appeasement simply boils down to giving violent criminals what they want out of fear? I'm not saying that you should refrain from that. The solution isn't to tip toe around certain ethnic groups, but it most certainly isn't about bombing everyone between yourself and a terrorist organisation. My point is, going into countries, killing civilians and going "woops" doesn't help.
We didn't exactly do that in Libya, yet here we are...
On September 13 2012 18:07 Zarahtra wrote:
I feel you are acting like muslims as a whole are evil human beings that cannot be reasoned with. That's just shortsighted, like I said, they have a very good reason to hate the western world, and we need to stop giving them the reason. If we don't, there will always be a minority of truly evil people that will keep exploiting that hate and getting those people armed. Now you tell me, if I killed your mother and you had a gun in your hand, would I walk away alive?
starfries was specifically talking about offending Muslims with mass mockery. It's one thing to suggest that we should refrain from invading Arab countries and killing civilians. It's quite another to suggest that we should refrain from offending a group to prevent them from engaging in terrorism against us.
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If anything, it is always smart not to offend anyone if possible. Criticizing is not always offending. There are ways to criticize something without purposefully offending people. It's not like your only way of survival is by offending others. I guess we should refrain from offendinding a group just because it is offensive, no other reason needed. Intentionally offending people sounds ridiculous.
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Wouldn't it be great if the Radical Muslims would just issue a statement instead of going haywire and killing people. This would be my statement if I were them;
We are very very upset about the muhammed movie. Therefore we wish no longer to talk or have any ties with the movie makers and their funders. Furthermore we hope that other non-muslim support us in thinking this is mockery which serves no purpose whatsoever except spewing hate. We would greatly appreciate condemnation of this movie by the Western World. Could you please hold a rally and wave signs saying 'Please stop slandering Islam, it serves no purpose' or something along those lines. We should focus on working together instead of hating eachtother.
Yours Truly,
A newly reformed Radical Islam
I would love an attitude like that but we seem far from it sadly.
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On September 13 2012 18:35 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 18:07 Zarahtra wrote:On September 13 2012 17:43 sunprince wrote:On September 13 2012 17:30 Zarahtra wrote:On September 13 2012 15:35 starfries wrote:
I think a better way to precipitate real change is to cater to the more level-headed majority. if we show them they have no reason to hate us, then less people will support violent extremist movements. the ones that are left will lack influence and the resources to pull off major acts of terrorism. I mean, your average Muslim in America is not going to shoot you for drawing a picture of Mohammed - but it's not because you've been taunting him with pictures of Mohammed every week. it's because he knows you're just a guy like he is, not some kind of monster. This I feel is a very good post. I feel the western world(and USA in particular) need to realize this and stop creating ammunition for the terrorist groups to then fuel in the heart of just the average muslim(and arab too). The obvious sad part about it is, there is really no short term solution to do this. At some point, western world needs to just step up and be the bigger man. So when people suicide bomb you for drawing their prophet, you think the solution is to stop drawing their prophet? How about when they then proceed to suicide bomb you for opposing their political interests, will you do what they want? How about when they suicide bomb you for not worshipping their deity, will you convert? At what point will you realize that the cowardly strategy of appeasement simply boils down to giving violent criminals what they want out of fear? I'm not saying that you should refrain from that. The solution isn't to tip toe around certain ethnic groups, but it most certainly isn't about bombing everyone between yourself and a terrorist organisation. My point is, going into countries, killing civilians and going "woops" doesn't help. We didn't exactly do that in Libya, yet here we are...
While that is true, I'm more speaking in a general scope on this, mostly due to the talks of Al Quada likely being behind/linked to the attack.
On September 13 2012 18:35 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 18:07 Zarahtra wrote:
I feel you are acting like muslims as a whole are evil human beings that cannot be reasoned with. That's just shortsighted, like I said, they have a very good reason to hate the western world, and we need to stop giving them the reason. If we don't, there will always be a minority of truly evil people that will keep exploiting that hate and getting those people armed. Now you tell me, if I killed your mother and you had a gun in your hand, would I walk away alive? starfries was specifically talking about offending Muslims with mass mockery. It's one thing to suggest that we should refrain from invading Arab countries and killing civilians. It's quite another to suggest that we should refrain from offending a group to prevent them from engaging in terrorism against us.
I'd argue my point is closely related to starfries's. Their hate for the western world stems both from some peoples lack of respect we have for their culture and religion and the killing of civilians.
I maybe should've specified that I'm more speaking at the whole state of the (greater) middle east, rather than just Libya(since in Libya that embassador was really well liked), aswell as assuming this wasn't just retaliation for the film. Apologeze for not being clear on that.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 13 2012 19:11 frontliner2 wrote:
Wouldn't it be great if the Radical Muslims would just issue a statement instead of going haywire and killing people. This would be my statement if I were them;
We are very very upset about the muhammed movie. Therefore we wish no longer to talk or have any ties with the movie makers and their funders. Furthermore we hope that other non-muslim support us in thinking this is mockery which serves no purpose whatsoever except spewing hate. We would greatly appreciate condemnation of this movie by the Western World. Could you please hold a rally and wave signs saying 'Please stop slandering Islam, it serves no purpose' or something along those lines. We should focus on working together instead of hating eachtother.
Yours Truly,
A newly reformed Radical Islam
I would love an attitude like that but we seem far from it sadly.
They have before, issuing complaints and more peaceful protests (and many death threats). Remember, this is not the first incident, and there have been several before it. Yet some people can't seem to refrain from offending others. Not much we can do to be honest, other than condemn them verbally.
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Hehe,, the ¨movie¨ was sort of funny..
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On September 13 2012 19:11 frontliner2 wrote:
Wouldn't it be great if the Radical Muslims would just issue a statement instead of going haywire and killing people. This would be my statement if I were them;
We are very very upset about the muhammed movie. Therefore we wish no longer to talk or have any ties with the movie makers and their funders. Furthermore we hope that other non-muslim support us in thinking this is mockery which serves no purpose whatsoever except spewing hate. We would greatly appreciate condemnation of this movie by the Western World. Could you please hold a rally and wave signs saying 'Please stop slandering Islam, it serves no purpose' or something along those lines. We should focus on working together instead of hating eachtother.
Yours Truly,
A newly reformed Radical Islam
I would love an attitude like that but we seem far from it sadly.
And news station like CNN should have covered this story. Then, people in the Western World would have condemned the movie and moviemakers. Sadly, some people don't learn and keep offending others. Price is paid by innocent others who have nothing to do with it. Killers are guilty for sure, but movie makers are guilty as well in my eyes. If I were the family of the killed, I would condemn the movie makers just as hard as the killers.
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Watched the 13 minute film. That was the most shit-tier production quality I have ever seen, for lack of a better phrase. Anyone in their right minds would brush it off as someone being stupid and wasting their time, without the need to take this charged offense over it. Sure it's targeting religion and I can understand being upset. But killing people and storming into live rounds of ammunition in multiple U.S. embassies abroad? Now this is getting batshit insanely retarded. There are so many things that go around in western cultures, in our media-rich, interconnected world that we do to offend each other! And there are likely millions of different things that will piss millions of different people off if they find them, but ONE, ONE ultra-low budget YouTube video that might have been forgotten the next day is turned into this absurd political episode throwing instability where it is least needed.
This is why I'll never be a PC cultural relativist, and always support countries like Israel etc. etc.
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Even if the film is shit, was it necessary to kill people who had NOTHING to do with it? Seriously, some people are too much into religion, and need to calm down and identify who really did it. I'll refrain from naming specific religions due to the thread's warning, but I hope the world becomes less religion extreme.
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On September 13 2012 20:02 darkness wrote:
Even if the film is shit, was it necessary to kill people who had NOTHING to do with it? Seriously, some people are too much into religion, and need to calm down and identify who really did it. I'll refrain from naming specific religions due to the thread's warning, but I hope the world becomes less religion extreme.
The last reports say that people got killed by militants that used the protests as a diversion to carry on the attacks against the embassy.
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On September 13 2012 19:17 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 18:35 sunprince wrote:On September 13 2012 18:07 Zarahtra wrote:On September 13 2012 17:43 sunprince wrote:On September 13 2012 17:30 Zarahtra wrote:On September 13 2012 15:35 starfries wrote:
I think a better way to precipitate real change is to cater to the more level-headed majority. if we show them they have no reason to hate us, then less people will support violent extremist movements. the ones that are left will lack influence and the resources to pull off major acts of terrorism. I mean, your average Muslim in America is not going to shoot you for drawing a picture of Mohammed - but it's not because you've been taunting him with pictures of Mohammed every week. it's because he knows you're just a guy like he is, not some kind of monster. This I feel is a very good post. I feel the western world(and USA in particular) need to realize this and stop creating ammunition for the terrorist groups to then fuel in the heart of just the average muslim(and arab too). The obvious sad part about it is, there is really no short term solution to do this. At some point, western world needs to just step up and be the bigger man. So when people suicide bomb you for drawing their prophet, you think the solution is to stop drawing their prophet? How about when they then proceed to suicide bomb you for opposing their political interests, will you do what they want? How about when they suicide bomb you for not worshipping their deity, will you convert? At what point will you realize that the cowardly strategy of appeasement simply boils down to giving violent criminals what they want out of fear? I'm not saying that you should refrain from that. The solution isn't to tip toe around certain ethnic groups, but it most certainly isn't about bombing everyone between yourself and a terrorist organisation. My point is, going into countries, killing civilians and going "woops" doesn't help. We didn't exactly do that in Libya, yet here we are... While that is true, I'm more speaking in a general scope on this, mostly due to the talks of Al Quada likely being behind/linked to the attack.
The goal of al-Quaeda is to destroy the US economy so that they can turn the world into an Islamic kingdom.
Given this, refraining from offending them achieves nothing, unless you are arguing that we should prevent terrorism by voluntarily converting to Islam and replacing our government with a Wahhabi caliphate. I suppose that would stop offending them.
On September 13 2012 19:17 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 18:35 sunprince wrote:On September 13 2012 18:07 Zarahtra wrote:
I feel you are acting like muslims as a whole are evil human beings that cannot be reasoned with. That's just shortsighted, like I said, they have a very good reason to hate the western world, and we need to stop giving them the reason. If we don't, there will always be a minority of truly evil people that will keep exploiting that hate and getting those people armed. Now you tell me, if I killed your mother and you had a gun in your hand, would I walk away alive? starfries was specifically talking about offending Muslims with mass mockery. It's one thing to suggest that we should refrain from invading Arab countries and killing civilians. It's quite another to suggest that we should refrain from offending a group to prevent them from engaging in terrorism against us. I'd argue my point is closely related to starfries's. Their hate for the western world stems both from some peoples lack of respect we have for their culture and religion and the killing of civilians.
You missed the fact that their hatred stems also from the fact that their religion specifically instructs them to wage holy war on unbelievers and unite everyone under Islamic rule.
The idea that "respecting" violent criminals will appease them is incredibly naive. It just means they'll find a different excuse for their crimes.
User was warned for this post
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 13 2012 20:30 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 19:17 Zarahtra wrote:On September 13 2012 18:35 sunprince wrote:On September 13 2012 18:07 Zarahtra wrote:On September 13 2012 17:43 sunprince wrote:On September 13 2012 17:30 Zarahtra wrote:On September 13 2012 15:35 starfries wrote:
I think a better way to precipitate real change is to cater to the more level-headed majority. if we show them they have no reason to hate us, then less people will support violent extremist movements. the ones that are left will lack influence and the resources to pull off major acts of terrorism. I mean, your average Muslim in America is not going to shoot you for drawing a picture of Mohammed - but it's not because you've been taunting him with pictures of Mohammed every week. it's because he knows you're just a guy like he is, not some kind of monster. This I feel is a very good post. I feel the western world(and USA in particular) need to realize this and stop creating ammunition for the terrorist groups to then fuel in the heart of just the average muslim(and arab too). The obvious sad part about it is, there is really no short term solution to do this. At some point, western world needs to just step up and be the bigger man. So when people suicide bomb you for drawing their prophet, you think the solution is to stop drawing their prophet? How about when they then proceed to suicide bomb you for opposing their political interests, will you do what they want? How about when they suicide bomb you for not worshipping their deity, will you convert? At what point will you realize that the cowardly strategy of appeasement simply boils down to giving violent criminals what they want out of fear? I'm not saying that you should refrain from that. The solution isn't to tip toe around certain ethnic groups, but it most certainly isn't about bombing everyone between yourself and a terrorist organisation. My point is, going into countries, killing civilians and going "woops" doesn't help. We didn't exactly do that in Libya, yet here we are... While that is true, I'm more speaking in a general scope on this, mostly due to the talks of Al Quada likely being behind/linked to the attack. The goal of al-Quaeda is to destroy the US economy so that they can turn the world into an Islamic kingdom.Given this, refraining from offending them achieves nothing, unless you are arguing that we should prevent terrorism by voluntarily converting to Islam and replacing our government with a Wahhabi caliphate. I suppose that would stop offending them. Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 19:17 Zarahtra wrote:On September 13 2012 18:35 sunprince wrote:On September 13 2012 18:07 Zarahtra wrote:
I feel you are acting like muslims as a whole are evil human beings that cannot be reasoned with. That's just shortsighted, like I said, they have a very good reason to hate the western world, and we need to stop giving them the reason. If we don't, there will always be a minority of truly evil people that will keep exploiting that hate and getting those people armed. Now you tell me, if I killed your mother and you had a gun in your hand, would I walk away alive? starfries was specifically talking about offending Muslims with mass mockery. It's one thing to suggest that we should refrain from invading Arab countries and killing civilians. It's quite another to suggest that we should refrain from offending a group to prevent them from engaging in terrorism against us. I'd argue my point is closely related to starfries's. Their hate for the western world stems both from some peoples lack of respect we have for their culture and religion and the killing of civilians. You missed the fact that their hatred stems also from the fact that their religion specifically instructs them to wage holy war on unbelievers and unite everyone under Islamic rule. The idea that "respecting" violent criminals will appease them is incredibly naive. It just means they'll find a different excuse for their crimes.
Pretty sure we've already been over this. The murderers were not people who were enraged because of the video - they were an organized, militant group making use of the situation. You don't have to respect al-Qaeda or other terrorists, but don't lump them with the majority of Muslims who were just expressing their frustration and nothing else.
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Edit: bowing out of this thread derail as per mod request.
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On September 13 2012 20:06 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:02 darkness wrote:
Even if the film is shit, was it necessary to kill people who had NOTHING to do with it? Seriously, some people are too much into religion, and need to calm down and identify who really did it. I'll refrain from naming specific religions due to the thread's warning, but I hope the world becomes less religion extreme. The last reports say that people got killed by militants that used the protests as a diversion to carry on the attacks against the embassy.
Yep the protest wasn't even very big at first. Then pickups with heavily armed guys arrived and everything escalated. This was a planned attack staged as a protest.
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I started watching the video against my better judgement. So weird. I have less than no idea what they thought they were making. Wonder what actually will end up happening about the maker/funders/whatever.
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Why? For us reading in the media about who made it and then telling it here whiteout any way of knowing better?
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EPT
