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Please don't use this thread as a platform to argue about religion. -semioldguy |
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:09 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:03 WhiteDog wrote:On September 13 2012 00:00 Sated wrote:On September 12 2012 23:59 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:56 Sated wrote:On September 12 2012 23:36 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:29 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:15 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:03 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:00 Souma wrote:
[quote]
You know very well that it is not just religion that causes these people to go out murdering others. I would put my money on Christians going out chopping off heads if they were oppressed as a lot of these Muslim nations have been. U.S.-backed dictators who slaughter innocent civilians? Yeah, that's totally okay.
I will never justify suicide bombing; I will always deem it barbaric and tragic. But if you think America does not have its fair share of blame, you are sorely mistaken. Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence. Unless the world’s Muslims can find some way of expunging the metaphysics that is fast turning their religion into a cult of death, we will ultimately face the same perversely destructive behavior throughout much of the world. We are now mired in a religious war in Iraq and elsewhere. Our enemies--as witnessed by their astonishing willingness to slaughter themselves--are not principally motivated by political or economic grievances. How many more architects and electrical engineers must fly planes into buildings before we realize that the problem of Muslim extremism is not merely a matter of education? How many more middle-class British citizens must blow themselves up along with scores of noncombatants before we acknowledge that Muslim terrorism is not matter of poverty or political oppression? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html I've already said that you cannot compare Buddhism to any other religion. How about we compare Muslims to the Jews, who have been engaged in systematic genocide against the Palestinians? But if you really want to bring up Buddhists, how about the Buddhists of Myanmar murdering Muslims? And if Christians were in the same situation, they would be leading crusades right about now. Yes, Muslims in general have more radical principles, but the ones going out murdering people are a tiny, tiny minority of fanatics. The quotes you've listed before were all taken out of context. You might want to actually read the Quran. It might help you understand them more. And jeeze, really? The United States directly props up a heinous monarch who slaughters his people and suddenly, it's every Muslim who gets the backlash for it. Lose-lose situation for the Muslims, ain't it? Genocide? You mean the Palestinian's myriad of attacks on the Israelis. I don't see how this proves your point, given that this is a conflict that at it's core is based on an interpretation of who the Bible says owns the land. And you realize that the violence between the Muslims and Buddhists in Myanmar was started by the Muslims who raped and murdered a Buddhist? The point is, there is a easy path from Islam to murderous atrocities. Don't take my word for it, go watch some videos of these murderers and terrorist boasting. Let them speak for themselves. You can call them tiny, tiny minorities all you want, all murder is a tiny, tiny minority, but the fact remains that this tiny, tiny minorities doesn't exist in other religions. There are gradations of evil and intolerance. When's the last time any other religion rioted and murdered because someone else made fun of their god? And multiply that by, what, 6? Gee, I wonder why the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis, must have nothing to do with this: ![[image loading]](http://www.thehypertexts.com/images/israel-palestine_map.jpg) And the Myanmar situation stems much further back than an incident in which some men attempted to rape a girl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_BurmaThe point is, these people who are committing murderous atrocities -- this tiny, tiny minority -- interpret the Quran in their own way, a way in which most every other Muslim condemns. The thing with Western nations is, we don't need to use religion as a pretense to murder people - we use Democracy. Islam is to them what Democracy is to us. I wonder who's taken more lives - Democracy or Islam? If I made the same chart for UK territory from the days of the Empire to the present day, would you also deem it acceptable for the UK to attack - for instance - India? Using that chart to justify violence is dumb. Your example is dumb. If it was Germany taking over England, it would make sense for the English to fight back, yes. Okay, now I go to bed. You're from America, so how about this: Would it be okay for Native Americans to start bombing parts of the USA? EDIT: To the people above, my example was supposed to be extreme and stupid, it highlights just how stupid the original chart is. The indiens fought back when Americans took over their lands, and who ever said they shouldn't have ? Also, Israelians took over Palestine 60 years ago, not very far, perfectly normal for them to fight. The amount of time required for people to stop being pissed off about something is completely subjective. The point remains that using that chart to justify violence (directed almost entirely at innocent civilians I might add; it's not as if this is a military conflict) is entirely ridiculous.
It's SYSTEMATIC GENOCIDE. The Palestinians are losing and have lost way more civilians than the Israelis. They lost THEIR ENTIRE COUNTRY.
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On September 12 2012 23:53 Brutland wrote:
so, let me get this right, a film talks about how violent and dangerous islam is, and then in defense of islam Not being violent, some islamic nuts go and kill people. man. i would hate to imagine if the type of people who were that crazy ever decided to get smart about their crazy. would be bad news
yet there are tons of people defending their actions. it's just crazy.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:10 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 23:53 Brutland wrote:
so, let me get this right, a film talks about how violent and dangerous islam is, and then in defense of islam Not being violent, some islamic nuts go and kill people. man. i would hate to imagine if the type of people who were that crazy ever decided to get smart about their crazy. would be bad news yet there are tons of people defending their actions. it's just crazy.
NO ONE'S defending the murderers. We're defending the MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS who have done absolutely nothing to warrant this kind of bigotry.
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On September 13 2012 00:06 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 23:56 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:36 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:29 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:15 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:03 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:00 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 22:50 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 22:31 Mephy wrote:On September 12 2012 22:27 paralleluniverse wrote:
[quote]
[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement. Now that you've found those, why don't you compile a list of passages that talk about peace and equality? Then we can find some sort of ratio and determine if Islam is violent. You act as if there is some sort of mental tug of war in the minds of these murderers and terrorists. But if you've actually watched any of their propaganda you'd know there is no such conflict, they are absolutely clear-headed that Islam and the Quran justifies suicide bombings and murders. The ratio of good-to-bad is not part of their mental calculus. Why do these people keep talking about Allah, Islam, and slaughtering infidels? Could it be because religion has everything to do with their reasoning? And it is these types of hateful and intolerant teachings that allows them to justify to themselves why it is acceptable to kill someone else for blasphemy. If you deny that Islam is the primary source of their murderous outrage, then what is it? You say that these murderers have a warped view of Islam. Then why aren't there similarly warped views of Christianity that leads to suicide bombings? Could it be that Islam is more forcefully intolerant and hateful than Christianity? And in the face of these atrocities, what do you do? Nothing. No condemnation. You write as if we should just open our arms to accept these primitives who believe in a religion that calls for the murder of nonbelievers and blasphemers. Let's welcome these people who are from the most theocratic and intolerant places on planet Earth, pretending that there is absolutely nothing wrong with what they believe, despite that the fact that this religion has bred suicide bombers, religious fanatics, and murderous mobs like nowhere else in the modern world. What could possibly go wrong? Remember Madrid? London? You know very well that it is not just religion that causes these people to go out murdering others. I would put my money on Christians going out chopping off heads if they were oppressed as a lot of these Muslim nations have been. U.S.-backed dictators who slaughter innocent civilians? Yeah, that's totally okay. I will never justify suicide bombing; I will always deem it barbaric and tragic. But if you think America does not have its fair share of blame, you are sorely mistaken. Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence. Unless the world’s Muslims can find some way of expunging the metaphysics that is fast turning their religion into a cult of death, we will ultimately face the same perversely destructive behavior throughout much of the world. We are now mired in a religious war in Iraq and elsewhere. Our enemies--as witnessed by their astonishing willingness to slaughter themselves--are not principally motivated by political or economic grievances. How many more architects and electrical engineers must fly planes into buildings before we realize that the problem of Muslim extremism is not merely a matter of education? How many more middle-class British citizens must blow themselves up along with scores of noncombatants before we acknowledge that Muslim terrorism is not matter of poverty or political oppression? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html I've already said that you cannot compare Buddhism to any other religion. How about we compare Muslims to the Jews, who have been engaged in systematic genocide against the Palestinians? But if you really want to bring up Buddhists, how about the Buddhists of Myanmar murdering Muslims? And if Christians were in the same situation, they would be leading crusades right about now. Yes, Muslims in general have more radical principles, but the ones going out murdering people are a tiny, tiny minority of fanatics. The quotes you've listed before were all taken out of context. You might want to actually read the Quran. It might help you understand them more. And jeeze, really? The United States directly props up a heinous monarch who slaughters his people and suddenly, it's every Muslim who gets the backlash for it. Lose-lose situation for the Muslims, ain't it? Genocide? You mean the Palestinian's myriad of attacks on the Israelis. I don't see how this proves your point, given that this is a conflict that at it's core is based on an interpretation of who the Bible says owns the land. And you realize that the violence between the Muslims and Buddhists in Myanmar was started by the Muslims who raped and murdered a Buddhist? The point is, there is a easy path from Islam to murderous atrocities. Don't take my word for it, go watch some videos of these murderers and terrorist boasting. Let them speak for themselves. You can call them tiny, tiny minorities all you want, all murder is a tiny, tiny minority, but the fact remains that this tiny, tiny minorities doesn't exist in other religions. There are gradations of evil and intolerance. When's the last time any other religion rioted and murdered because someone else made fun of their god? And multiply that by, what, 6? Gee, I wonder why the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis, must have nothing to do with this: And the Myanmar situation stems much further back than an incident in which some men attempted to rape a girl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_BurmaThe point is, these people who are committing murderous atrocities -- this tiny, tiny minority -- interpret the Quran in their own way, a way in which most every other Muslim condemns. The thing with Western nations is, we don't need to use religion as a pretense to murder people - we use Democracy. Islam is to them what Democracy is to us. I wonder who's taken more lives - Democracy or Islam? Stop misdirecting. What has the Israeli-Palestinian conflict got to do with the topic? Western countries did not invade Afghanistan and Iraq to murder its civilians in the name of democracy. And even before the invasion of Iraq, suicide bombings and other barbaric acts were done in the name of Islam. 9/11? While 9/11 wasn't the start of the conflict between the Western world and the Islamic world, that doesn't change the fact that it is the ideology of Islam that uniquely explains why they are murdering Americans and blowing themselves up. They even do us the favor of telling us precisely this. Nothing else is as brutal, relentless and irrational, the conflict in Myanmar doesn't even come close. Again, when's the last time another religion goes on a homicidal rampage because someone insulted their god? Does America go on homicidal rampages because someone has insulted to idea of democracy? To compare democracy to Islam is absurd. You really want to keep me awake. What do you mean what does the Palestinian-Israeli conflict have to do with the topic? You're the one who said that Muslims employ terrorism just because of their religion. I proved that was wrong. These guys have a legitimate right to hate the West. Did you forget what the U.S. has done in the Muslim world since the Cold War? Comparing Democracy to Islam is not insane. The Vietnam War? The Korean War? Instilling democracy across the globe? Then murdering democratically-elected leaders? Have we really forgotten? Or is the CIA just that good?
Many peoples have been oppressed and still are oppressed, yet they do not turn to suicide bombings and murdering blasphemers. I never dismissed that there are geopolitical causes that make Muslims hate the West, but what turns that hatred into suicide bombings is Islam.
As I previously quoted:
Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim.
But this case is about blasphemy, what other religion murders for blasphemy?
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On September 13 2012 00:10 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 23:53 Brutland wrote:
so, let me get this right, a film talks about how violent and dangerous islam is, and then in defense of islam Not being violent, some islamic nuts go and kill people. man. i would hate to imagine if the type of people who were that crazy ever decided to get smart about their crazy. would be bad news yet there are tons of people defending their actions. it's just crazy.
They are putting up excuses for the guys who are partely responsible for the bad quality of life down there, but you have to realize that it is just ignorance built up in a bubble of wealth and peace.
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On September 13 2012 00:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:09 ImFromPortugal wrote:On September 13 2012 00:00 Sated wrote:On September 12 2012 23:59 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:56 Sated wrote:On September 12 2012 23:36 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:29 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:15 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:03 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:00 Souma wrote:
[quote]
You know very well that it is not just religion that causes these people to go out murdering others. I would put my money on Christians going out chopping off heads if they were oppressed as a lot of these Muslim nations have been. U.S.-backed dictators who slaughter innocent civilians? Yeah, that's totally okay.
I will never justify suicide bombing; I will always deem it barbaric and tragic. But if you think America does not have its fair share of blame, you are sorely mistaken. Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence. Unless the world’s Muslims can find some way of expunging the metaphysics that is fast turning their religion into a cult of death, we will ultimately face the same perversely destructive behavior throughout much of the world. We are now mired in a religious war in Iraq and elsewhere. Our enemies--as witnessed by their astonishing willingness to slaughter themselves--are not principally motivated by political or economic grievances. How many more architects and electrical engineers must fly planes into buildings before we realize that the problem of Muslim extremism is not merely a matter of education? How many more middle-class British citizens must blow themselves up along with scores of noncombatants before we acknowledge that Muslim terrorism is not matter of poverty or political oppression? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html I've already said that you cannot compare Buddhism to any other religion. How about we compare Muslims to the Jews, who have been engaged in systematic genocide against the Palestinians? But if you really want to bring up Buddhists, how about the Buddhists of Myanmar murdering Muslims? And if Christians were in the same situation, they would be leading crusades right about now. Yes, Muslims in general have more radical principles, but the ones going out murdering people are a tiny, tiny minority of fanatics. The quotes you've listed before were all taken out of context. You might want to actually read the Quran. It might help you understand them more. And jeeze, really? The United States directly props up a heinous monarch who slaughters his people and suddenly, it's every Muslim who gets the backlash for it. Lose-lose situation for the Muslims, ain't it? Genocide? You mean the Palestinian's myriad of attacks on the Israelis. I don't see how this proves your point, given that this is a conflict that at it's core is based on an interpretation of who the Bible says owns the land. And you realize that the violence between the Muslims and Buddhists in Myanmar was started by the Muslims who raped and murdered a Buddhist? The point is, there is a easy path from Islam to murderous atrocities. Don't take my word for it, go watch some videos of these murderers and terrorist boasting. Let them speak for themselves. You can call them tiny, tiny minorities all you want, all murder is a tiny, tiny minority, but the fact remains that this tiny, tiny minorities doesn't exist in other religions. There are gradations of evil and intolerance. When's the last time any other religion rioted and murdered because someone else made fun of their god? And multiply that by, what, 6? Gee, I wonder why the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis, must have nothing to do with this: And the Myanmar situation stems much further back than an incident in which some men attempted to rape a girl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_BurmaThe point is, these people who are committing murderous atrocities -- this tiny, tiny minority -- interpret the Quran in their own way, a way in which most every other Muslim condemns. The thing with Western nations is, we don't need to use religion as a pretense to murder people - we use Democracy. Islam is to them what Democracy is to us. I wonder who's taken more lives - Democracy or Islam? If I made the same chart for UK territory from the days of the Empire to the present day, would you also deem it acceptable for the UK to attack - for instance - India? Using that chart to justify violence is dumb. Your example is dumb. If it was Germany taking over England, it would make sense for the English to fight back, yes. Okay, now I go to bed. You're from America, so how about this: Would it be okay for Native Americans to start bombing parts of the USA? EDIT: To the people above, my example was supposed to be extreme and stupid, it highlights just how stupid using a chart to justify violence is. 1. i don't think the natives have the strength or the will to do that. 2. what would they be fighting for? its impossible to send every non native to their homelands now. 3. the Palestinians are fighting for a concrete goal, and they think they have the chance of stopping the land grab, in your mind they should just sit idle and let the israelis steal more land, the UN is unable to do anything about it. 1. Irrelevant. 2. It only takes enough people delusional enough to believe that they can achieve that goal. 3. Defending your land from military forces is fine. Firing rockets at innocent civilians, which is most of what happens in Palestine, is not the same.
i would like them to change their policy and attack only military targets, but its hard to do that when you only have homemade bottle rockets that almost never reach their targets anyway.
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Switzerland6320 Posts
The problem is less the religion than the difficulty to access proper education and school in those countries due to the poverty. Altho it is true that some branchs (taliban) don't tolerate education.
This is really sad because Islam was way ahead of the europeans and christianity during the whole middle age when it comes to tolerancy and science.
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Those event remember me inquisition in Europe during middle age
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On September 13 2012 00:11 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:10 Silidons wrote:On September 12 2012 23:53 Brutland wrote:
so, let me get this right, a film talks about how violent and dangerous islam is, and then in defense of islam Not being violent, some islamic nuts go and kill people. man. i would hate to imagine if the type of people who were that crazy ever decided to get smart about their crazy. would be bad news yet there are tons of people defending their actions. it's just crazy. NO ONE'S defending the murderers. We're defending the MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS who have done absolutely nothing to warrant this kind of bigotry.
Nothing but to show around 15% to 30% support for these terrorists and murderers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism#Recent_Polls
Where are the condemnations from "moderates"?
My argument isn't that all Muslims are guilty by association, or that being Muslim necessarily means that you're a terrorist. But there is a direct link between believe in Islam that enables and justifies murderous rampages for blasphemy in the right situations.
Clearly they are highly tolerant of free speech. Just look at all the moderate Muslims in Europe who rampaged and murdered, when a cartoonist dared to exercise his right to free speech and drew the Prophet. What other religion shows such extreme intolerance? Are you gonna blame that one on Western oppression too?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:14 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:06 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:56 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:36 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:29 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:15 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:03 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:00 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 22:50 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 22:31 Mephy wrote:
[quote]
Now that you've found those, why don't you compile a list of passages that talk about peace and equality? Then we can find some sort of ratio and determine if Islam is violent.
You act as if there is some sort of mental tug of war in the minds of these murderers and terrorists. But if you've actually watched any of their propaganda you'd know there is no such conflict, they are absolutely clear-headed that Islam and the Quran justifies suicide bombings and murders. The ratio of good-to-bad is not part of their mental calculus. Why do these people keep talking about Allah, Islam, and slaughtering infidels? Could it be because religion has everything to do with their reasoning? And it is these types of hateful and intolerant teachings that allows them to justify to themselves why it is acceptable to kill someone else for blasphemy. If you deny that Islam is the primary source of their murderous outrage, then what is it? You say that these murderers have a warped view of Islam. Then why aren't there similarly warped views of Christianity that leads to suicide bombings? Could it be that Islam is more forcefully intolerant and hateful than Christianity? And in the face of these atrocities, what do you do? Nothing. No condemnation. You write as if we should just open our arms to accept these primitives who believe in a religion that calls for the murder of nonbelievers and blasphemers. Let's welcome these people who are from the most theocratic and intolerant places on planet Earth, pretending that there is absolutely nothing wrong with what they believe, despite that the fact that this religion has bred suicide bombers, religious fanatics, and murderous mobs like nowhere else in the modern world. What could possibly go wrong? Remember Madrid? London? You know very well that it is not just religion that causes these people to go out murdering others. I would put my money on Christians going out chopping off heads if they were oppressed as a lot of these Muslim nations have been. U.S.-backed dictators who slaughter innocent civilians? Yeah, that's totally okay. I will never justify suicide bombing; I will always deem it barbaric and tragic. But if you think America does not have its fair share of blame, you are sorely mistaken. Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence. Unless the world’s Muslims can find some way of expunging the metaphysics that is fast turning their religion into a cult of death, we will ultimately face the same perversely destructive behavior throughout much of the world. We are now mired in a religious war in Iraq and elsewhere. Our enemies--as witnessed by their astonishing willingness to slaughter themselves--are not principally motivated by political or economic grievances. How many more architects and electrical engineers must fly planes into buildings before we realize that the problem of Muslim extremism is not merely a matter of education? How many more middle-class British citizens must blow themselves up along with scores of noncombatants before we acknowledge that Muslim terrorism is not matter of poverty or political oppression? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html I've already said that you cannot compare Buddhism to any other religion. How about we compare Muslims to the Jews, who have been engaged in systematic genocide against the Palestinians? But if you really want to bring up Buddhists, how about the Buddhists of Myanmar murdering Muslims? And if Christians were in the same situation, they would be leading crusades right about now. Yes, Muslims in general have more radical principles, but the ones going out murdering people are a tiny, tiny minority of fanatics. The quotes you've listed before were all taken out of context. You might want to actually read the Quran. It might help you understand them more. And jeeze, really? The United States directly props up a heinous monarch who slaughters his people and suddenly, it's every Muslim who gets the backlash for it. Lose-lose situation for the Muslims, ain't it? Genocide? You mean the Palestinian's myriad of attacks on the Israelis. I don't see how this proves your point, given that this is a conflict that at it's core is based on an interpretation of who the Bible says owns the land. And you realize that the violence between the Muslims and Buddhists in Myanmar was started by the Muslims who raped and murdered a Buddhist? The point is, there is a easy path from Islam to murderous atrocities. Don't take my word for it, go watch some videos of these murderers and terrorist boasting. Let them speak for themselves. You can call them tiny, tiny minorities all you want, all murder is a tiny, tiny minority, but the fact remains that this tiny, tiny minorities doesn't exist in other religions. There are gradations of evil and intolerance. When's the last time any other religion rioted and murdered because someone else made fun of their god? And multiply that by, what, 6? Gee, I wonder why the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis, must have nothing to do with this: And the Myanmar situation stems much further back than an incident in which some men attempted to rape a girl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_BurmaThe point is, these people who are committing murderous atrocities -- this tiny, tiny minority -- interpret the Quran in their own way, a way in which most every other Muslim condemns. The thing with Western nations is, we don't need to use religion as a pretense to murder people - we use Democracy. Islam is to them what Democracy is to us. I wonder who's taken more lives - Democracy or Islam? Stop misdirecting. What has the Israeli-Palestinian conflict got to do with the topic? Western countries did not invade Afghanistan and Iraq to murder its civilians in the name of democracy. And even before the invasion of Iraq, suicide bombings and other barbaric acts were done in the name of Islam. 9/11? While 9/11 wasn't the start of the conflict between the Western world and the Islamic world, that doesn't change the fact that it is the ideology of Islam that uniquely explains why they are murdering Americans and blowing themselves up. They even do us the favor of telling us precisely this. Nothing else is as brutal, relentless and irrational, the conflict in Myanmar doesn't even come close. Again, when's the last time another religion goes on a homicidal rampage because someone insulted their god? Does America go on homicidal rampages because someone has insulted to idea of democracy? To compare democracy to Islam is absurd. You really want to keep me awake. What do you mean what does the Palestinian-Israeli conflict have to do with the topic? You're the one who said that Muslims employ terrorism just because of their religion. I proved that was wrong. These guys have a legitimate right to hate the West. Did you forget what the U.S. has done in the Muslim world since the Cold War? Comparing Democracy to Islam is not insane. The Vietnam War? The Korean War? Instilling democracy across the globe? Then murdering democratically-elected leaders? Have we really forgotten? Or is the CIA just that good? Many peoples have been oppressed and still are oppressed, yet they do not turn to suicide bombings and murdering blasphemers. I never dismissed that there are geopolitical causes that make Muslims hate the West, but what turns that hatred into suicide bombings is Islam. As I previously quoted: Show nested quote +Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. But this case is about blasphemy, what other religion murders for blasphemy?
There's nothing taught in Islam that specifically mentions suicide bombings. That's just a tactic they came up with themselves because it's the most effective. There's nothing in Islam that says drawing Muhammad must be punished by death. It's just some crazies being crazy.
At least we (apparently) agree on something: people are being oppressed. Should they be suicide bombing civilians? No. Should they be murdering people for blasphemy? No. But is the U.S. (or Israel) completely clear of blame? No.
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On September 13 2012 00:11 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:10 Silidons wrote:On September 12 2012 23:53 Brutland wrote:
so, let me get this right, a film talks about how violent and dangerous islam is, and then in defense of islam Not being violent, some islamic nuts go and kill people. man. i would hate to imagine if the type of people who were that crazy ever decided to get smart about their crazy. would be bad news yet there are tons of people defending their actions. it's just crazy. NO ONE'S defending the murderers. We're defending the MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS who have done absolutely nothing to warrant this kind of bigotry.
And to make things ironic, one of the biggest contributors to counter-terrorism in America have been the Muslim American population.
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I'm baffled at the stupid comparaison some guys can come with. Educate yourself plz.
Like the old same firing rocket at innocent civilians is ridiculous. They killed like 10 guy with those rockets in the last 5 years, which means basically less than kills with automatic weapon in the US in a month. On the other side, the number of Palestinians kids who die during the various Israelis' invasion is a legitimate reason to be pissed of.
Just let Israel and Palestine be, that's just not the point of the discussion at all, and defending one side or another without any idea of the real numbers behind the so called attacks is silly.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:23 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:11 Souma wrote:On September 13 2012 00:10 Silidons wrote:On September 12 2012 23:53 Brutland wrote:
so, let me get this right, a film talks about how violent and dangerous islam is, and then in defense of islam Not being violent, some islamic nuts go and kill people. man. i would hate to imagine if the type of people who were that crazy ever decided to get smart about their crazy. would be bad news yet there are tons of people defending their actions. it's just crazy. NO ONE'S defending the murderers. We're defending the MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS who have done absolutely nothing to warrant this kind of bigotry. Nothing but to show around 15% to 30% support for these terrorists and murderers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism#Recent_PollsWhere are the condemnations from "moderates"? My argument isn't that all Muslims are guilty by association, or that being Muslim necessarily means that you're a terrorist. But there is a direct link between believe in Islam that enables and justifies murderous rampages for blasphemy in the right situations. Clearly they are highly tolerant of free speech.
Read the .pdf that it cites. It says it in the first survey:
"Large majorities in many of the countries polled specifically denounce the use of attacks on American civilians whether in the US or in a Muslim country."
And this while we have two wars going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Let's see how Americans feel when terrorists invade America.
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On September 12 2012 22:26 GT3 wrote:
As I said, the Quran preaches self defense, George W. Bush killed over 500 000 innocent Iraqi civilians and hurt many more. (www.iraqibodycount.org) this is a list of confirmed kills, uncorfimed kills estimates are 500 000-1 Million, and let's not talk about Abu Ghraib, the prison torture and humiliation of innocent Iraqi civilians.
It seems that you're either a dyslectic or have a minor reading problem, I said the Qur'An teaches self defense, the least we can do is kill Bush, or would you rather 500 000 - 1 Million Australian or American civilians dying, the Qur'an preaches eye for an eye, but in Islam we are not allowed to kill innocents, we have morals and ethics, something you and the american government is severely lacking in.
Sorry, but I can only facepalm to this. What does self defense has to do with eye for an eye? I think your are confusing revenge and defense. But that is a big old classic: X did it, so we can do it too !!!
And where are your ethics regarding the way you treat women? Nice preach! 
On September 13 2012 00:21 Rodiel3 wrote:
Those event remember me inquisition in Europe during middle age
Yes, the middle age. Hoping they get to renaissance any time soon...
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On September 13 2012 00:26 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:23 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 13 2012 00:11 Souma wrote:On September 13 2012 00:10 Silidons wrote:On September 12 2012 23:53 Brutland wrote:
so, let me get this right, a film talks about how violent and dangerous islam is, and then in defense of islam Not being violent, some islamic nuts go and kill people. man. i would hate to imagine if the type of people who were that crazy ever decided to get smart about their crazy. would be bad news yet there are tons of people defending their actions. it's just crazy. NO ONE'S defending the murderers. We're defending the MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS who have done absolutely nothing to warrant this kind of bigotry. Nothing but to show around 15% to 30% support for these terrorists and murderers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism#Recent_PollsWhere are the condemnations from "moderates"? My argument isn't that all Muslims are guilty by association, or that being Muslim necessarily means that you're a terrorist. But there is a direct link between believe in Islam that enables and justifies murderous rampages for blasphemy in the right situations. Clearly they are highly tolerant of free speech. Read the .pdf that it cites. It says it in the first survey: "Large majorities in many of the countries polled specifically denounce the use of attacks on American civilians whether in the US or in a Muslim country." And this while we have two wars going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Let's see how Americans feel when terrorists invade America.
Large majority in the sense that around 70% to 85% disapprove.
You think it is OK that around 15% to 30% surveyed find terrorism acceptable? Keep apologizing and making excuses on behalf of these people.
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This thread went pear-shaped rather quickly. I just heard Obama's speech on the matter, and concur in wishing peace for the families of those involved. Great speechwriter btw (by that I mean Obama HAS a great speechwriter, I could see this getting confused).
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The United States got caught in Jew-Raghead crossfire.
Shit's so 20th century.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:31 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:26 Souma wrote:On September 13 2012 00:23 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 13 2012 00:11 Souma wrote:On September 13 2012 00:10 Silidons wrote:On September 12 2012 23:53 Brutland wrote:
so, let me get this right, a film talks about how violent and dangerous islam is, and then in defense of islam Not being violent, some islamic nuts go and kill people. man. i would hate to imagine if the type of people who were that crazy ever decided to get smart about their crazy. would be bad news yet there are tons of people defending their actions. it's just crazy. NO ONE'S defending the murderers. We're defending the MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS who have done absolutely nothing to warrant this kind of bigotry. Nothing but to show around 15% to 30% support for these terrorists and murderers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism#Recent_PollsWhere are the condemnations from "moderates"? My argument isn't that all Muslims are guilty by association, or that being Muslim necessarily means that you're a terrorist. But there is a direct link between believe in Islam that enables and justifies murderous rampages for blasphemy in the right situations. Clearly they are highly tolerant of free speech. Read the .pdf that it cites. It says it in the first survey: "Large majorities in many of the countries polled specifically denounce the use of attacks on American civilians whether in the US or in a Muslim country." And this while we have two wars going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Let's see how Americans feel when terrorists invade America. Large majority in the sense that around 70% to 85% disapprove. You think it is OK that around 15% to 30% surveyed find terrorism acceptable? Keep apologizing and making excuses on behalf of these people.
Must be nice for those of us living in the comfort of our homes without foreign forces stomping on our democracy and killing our civilians on our land.
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On September 13 2012 00:24 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:14 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 13 2012 00:06 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:56 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:36 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:29 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:15 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:03 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:00 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 22:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
[quote]
You act as if there is some sort of mental tug of war in the minds of these murderers and terrorists. But if you've actually watched any of their propaganda you'd know there is no such conflict, they are absolutely clear-headed that Islam and the Quran justifies suicide bombings and murders. The ratio of good-to-bad is not part of their mental calculus. Why do these people keep talking about Allah, Islam, and slaughtering infidels? Could it be because religion has everything to do with their reasoning?
And it is these types of hateful and intolerant teachings that allows them to justify to themselves why it is acceptable to kill someone else for blasphemy. If you deny that Islam is the primary source of their murderous outrage, then what is it?
You say that these murderers have a warped view of Islam. Then why aren't there similarly warped views of Christianity that leads to suicide bombings? Could it be that Islam is more forcefully intolerant and hateful than Christianity?
And in the face of these atrocities, what do you do? Nothing. No condemnation. You write as if we should just open our arms to accept these primitives who believe in a religion that calls for the murder of nonbelievers and blasphemers. Let's welcome these people who are from the most theocratic and intolerant places on planet Earth, pretending that there is absolutely nothing wrong with what they believe, despite that the fact that this religion has bred suicide bombers, religious fanatics, and murderous mobs like nowhere else in the modern world. What could possibly go wrong? Remember Madrid? London? You know very well that it is not just religion that causes these people to go out murdering others. I would put my money on Christians going out chopping off heads if they were oppressed as a lot of these Muslim nations have been. U.S.-backed dictators who slaughter innocent civilians? Yeah, that's totally okay. I will never justify suicide bombing; I will always deem it barbaric and tragic. But if you think America does not have its fair share of blame, you are sorely mistaken. Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence. Unless the world’s Muslims can find some way of expunging the metaphysics that is fast turning their religion into a cult of death, we will ultimately face the same perversely destructive behavior throughout much of the world. We are now mired in a religious war in Iraq and elsewhere. Our enemies--as witnessed by their astonishing willingness to slaughter themselves--are not principally motivated by political or economic grievances. How many more architects and electrical engineers must fly planes into buildings before we realize that the problem of Muslim extremism is not merely a matter of education? How many more middle-class British citizens must blow themselves up along with scores of noncombatants before we acknowledge that Muslim terrorism is not matter of poverty or political oppression? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html I've already said that you cannot compare Buddhism to any other religion. How about we compare Muslims to the Jews, who have been engaged in systematic genocide against the Palestinians? But if you really want to bring up Buddhists, how about the Buddhists of Myanmar murdering Muslims? And if Christians were in the same situation, they would be leading crusades right about now. Yes, Muslims in general have more radical principles, but the ones going out murdering people are a tiny, tiny minority of fanatics. The quotes you've listed before were all taken out of context. You might want to actually read the Quran. It might help you understand them more. And jeeze, really? The United States directly props up a heinous monarch who slaughters his people and suddenly, it's every Muslim who gets the backlash for it. Lose-lose situation for the Muslims, ain't it? Genocide? You mean the Palestinian's myriad of attacks on the Israelis. I don't see how this proves your point, given that this is a conflict that at it's core is based on an interpretation of who the Bible says owns the land. And you realize that the violence between the Muslims and Buddhists in Myanmar was started by the Muslims who raped and murdered a Buddhist? The point is, there is a easy path from Islam to murderous atrocities. Don't take my word for it, go watch some videos of these murderers and terrorist boasting. Let them speak for themselves. You can call them tiny, tiny minorities all you want, all murder is a tiny, tiny minority, but the fact remains that this tiny, tiny minorities doesn't exist in other religions. There are gradations of evil and intolerance. When's the last time any other religion rioted and murdered because someone else made fun of their god? And multiply that by, what, 6? Gee, I wonder why the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis, must have nothing to do with this: And the Myanmar situation stems much further back than an incident in which some men attempted to rape a girl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_BurmaThe point is, these people who are committing murderous atrocities -- this tiny, tiny minority -- interpret the Quran in their own way, a way in which most every other Muslim condemns. The thing with Western nations is, we don't need to use religion as a pretense to murder people - we use Democracy. Islam is to them what Democracy is to us. I wonder who's taken more lives - Democracy or Islam? Stop misdirecting. What has the Israeli-Palestinian conflict got to do with the topic? Western countries did not invade Afghanistan and Iraq to murder its civilians in the name of democracy. And even before the invasion of Iraq, suicide bombings and other barbaric acts were done in the name of Islam. 9/11? While 9/11 wasn't the start of the conflict between the Western world and the Islamic world, that doesn't change the fact that it is the ideology of Islam that uniquely explains why they are murdering Americans and blowing themselves up. They even do us the favor of telling us precisely this. Nothing else is as brutal, relentless and irrational, the conflict in Myanmar doesn't even come close. Again, when's the last time another religion goes on a homicidal rampage because someone insulted their god? Does America go on homicidal rampages because someone has insulted to idea of democracy? To compare democracy to Islam is absurd. You really want to keep me awake. What do you mean what does the Palestinian-Israeli conflict have to do with the topic? You're the one who said that Muslims employ terrorism just because of their religion. I proved that was wrong. These guys have a legitimate right to hate the West. Did you forget what the U.S. has done in the Muslim world since the Cold War? Comparing Democracy to Islam is not insane. The Vietnam War? The Korean War? Instilling democracy across the globe? Then murdering democratically-elected leaders? Have we really forgotten? Or is the CIA just that good? Many peoples have been oppressed and still are oppressed, yet they do not turn to suicide bombings and murdering blasphemers. I never dismissed that there are geopolitical causes that make Muslims hate the West, but what turns that hatred into suicide bombings is Islam. As I previously quoted: Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. But this case is about blasphemy, what other religion murders for blasphemy? There's nothing taught in Islam that specifically mentions suicide bombings. That's just a tactic they came up with themselves because it's the most effective. There's nothing in Islam that says drawing Muhammad must be punished by death. It's just some crazies being crazy. At least we (apparently) agree on something: people are being oppressed. Should they be suicide bombing civilians? No. Should they be murdering people for blasphemy? No. But is the U.S. (or Israel) completely clear of blame? No.
No, it is NOT just "crazies being crazy". There are passages in the Quran, that have already been quoted in this thread that calls for blasphemy to be punished with death and for infidels to be killed.
These Muslims are NOT just making this shit up. It's real, it's in the Quran, and it's a threat. It's a threat that this one religion could breed so much crazies, intolerance and violence, compared to all the other religions. To disregard the seriousness of this threat is to be utterly derelict and naive.
Based on what do you conclude that this is just "crazies being crazy"? The fact that there are Muslims that don't blow themselves up proves nothing. That's true of every other religion, despite the fact that many have suffered worse oppressions.
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