I have heard rumours that for a charity organization Livestrong has a very low rate of efficiency. And in general charities already have large overhead and spend a lot of money on marketing their own image.
Lance Armstrong to lose Titles, Banned - Page 30
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Hanakurena
105 Posts
I have heard rumours that for a charity organization Livestrong has a very low rate of efficiency. And in general charities already have large overhead and spend a lot of money on marketing their own image. | ||
dude_2
Germany22 Posts
Read the goddamn article. He says that he's been hassled by this witch hunt for over a decade and that it's taken it's toll on both him and his family and that 'enough is enough'. and you believe him? what else can he say? just think about this. if you were in the same situation and innocent, would you fight for it or not? | ||
Eeevil
Netherlands359 Posts
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On August 26 2012 01:49 dude_2 wrote: and you believe him? what else can he say? just think about this. if you were in the same situation and innocent, would you fight for it or not? hes been fighting it for 8 or 9 years since he retired, whos to say it wont go on for 10 more years? when a doping agency can harras a rider, who has had 100% positive drug tests, for 9 years after he has retired you can expect riders to just go fuck it fuck you im done | ||
L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On August 26 2012 01:26 [F_]aths wrote: Jan Ullrich comes from the same town where I am from. Still, I am not a fan because he doped. There is a story where he waited once after Armstrong fell over, he didn't use this chance to get a lead and win over Armstrong. While this shows some character, the doping does not. thats pretty much standard for cycling, if its an important stage and the leader/high rated competitor crashes/flat tyre they will wait. Its like in football when they kick the ball to the other team after an injury. | ||
Hanakurena
105 Posts
On August 26 2012 02:30 L3g3nd_ wrote: hes been fighting it for 8 or 9 years since he retired, whos to say it wont go on for 10 more years? when a doping agency can harras a rider, who has had 100% positive drug tests, for 9 years after he has retired you can expect riders to just go fuck it fuck you im done He retired last year. He doped in his last 2 tours as well. When they get evidence for that and they also find evidence for his 7 tour wins, how can they just ignore that? UCI dropped the ball because it is a deeply corrupt organization that basically allowed doping while riders were dying in their sleep because their blood was too thick. Look at the picture of all these people who doped. They were allowed to ride and get podium spots. UCI has to be dismanteled for cycling to survive. Stop parroting what Armstrong says. It makes you look extremely gullable and docile. Armstrong harassed people, not the other way around. He cheated his way to riches and fame. Just because his competition was just as guilty doesn't mean anything. If he didn't cheat, he would have been in the bus climbing the HC, 10 to 20 minutes behind Ullrich. | ||
Dwelf
Netherlands365 Posts
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On August 26 2012 03:13 Dwelf wrote: He is still one of the best cyclists in the history of the tour, doping was extremely common and he still won. So you could argue reasonably that if noone doped he would have still won. This is clearly impossible to proof cause of the standard problems associated with alternative history discussions. Still its a reasonable assumption I think. It's an unfounded assumption, because there is zero proof for it. Since we know everyone had different doping programs and people react differently to doping and Armstrong was nowhere near a contender before his blood doping days (even if he already used steroids back then), it's just completely random to say that he would have won a tour had everyone been clean. It sounds very comforting, because it excuses his doping use to an extent. After all, he was merely leveling the playing field and making sure he would get what he deserved. That's precisely why you have to be really careful before you say something like that. | ||
darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
On August 26 2012 03:09 Hanakurena wrote: He retired last year. He doped in his last 2 tours as well. When they get evidence for that and they also find evidence for his 7 tour wins, how can they just ignore that? UCI dropped the ball because it is a deeply corrupt organization that basically allowed doping while riders were dying in their sleep because their blood was too thick. Look at the picture of all these people who doped. They were allowed to ride and get podium spots. UCI has to be dismanteled for cycling to survive. Stop parroting what Armstrong says. It makes you look extremely gullable and docile. Armstrong harassed people, not the other way around. He cheated his way to riches and fame. Just because his competition was just as guilty doesn't mean anything. If he didn't cheat, he would have been in the bus climbing the HC, 10 to 20 minutes behind Ullrich. you're so full of crap, i don't even feel like responding. | ||
Lebesgue
4542 Posts
Even Greg LeMond, other great American cyclist claimed that he was doping judging his performance impossible. And the fact that he won in a dirty sport doesn't mean that he would have won if everyone was clean. The performance enhancing drugs have different effect on different people. On average they can boost your climbing performance by 20% but the variation is large. So who know who would have won of all the cyclist were clean. The guy has been portraying himself as a victim for years. And he is still doing it. Why not mention that he got caught There are strong allegation that UCI was covering up the positive blood tests of Armstrong. Finally, Armstrong DID test positively in 1999 Tour de France for corticosteroid: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/magazine/05/23/lance.armstrong/index.html | ||
Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On August 26 2012 03:25 Grumbels wrote: It's an unfounded assumption, because there is zero proof for it. Since we know everyone had different doping programs and people react differently to doping and Armstrong was nowhere near a contender before his blood doping days (even if he already used steroids back then), it's just completely random to say that he would have won a tour had everyone been clean. It sounds very comforting, because it excuses his doping use to an extent. After all, he was merely leveling the playing field and making sure he would get what he deserved. That's precisely why you have to be really careful before you say something like that. Exactly, first of all people react differently to doping. Second of all, different people can take different doses. For example Erick Zabel admitted that he had really strong side effects from EPO. Other would have none even if they took extremely high doses. Moreover, there is testimony of pretty much everyone from his former teams saying that Armstrong was pushing his teammates to dope. He wasn't just doping himself. He would convince others to do so in order for his team to be better so he can win. "Wining at all costs"... | ||
Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On August 26 2012 00:24 Paperplane wrote: Oh man. I knew there was a lot of doping in cycling but never thought it was that bad Oo It was even worse what picture is telling | ||
vanatir
Germany355 Posts
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Hanakurena
105 Posts
He forced all his teammates to put their lives on the line so he could get all the glory. Apparently his one in a billion freak genes weren't enough. He wanted more. Taking epo and doing blood transfusions isn't anywhere near taking steroids. It is hella risky and too many people died or fucked their health and will die too soon sometime in the future. That's immoral. Doping or not doping changes what it means to have good genes/talent. If Armstrong has the best genes for winning a doped tour that means he doesn't have the best genes for winning a clean tour. | ||
Tao367
United Kingdom324 Posts
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Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
Strip them all of their wins, having no winner is better than some cheating junky. | ||
Magic_Mike
United States542 Posts
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Green Sun s Zenith
Canada85 Posts
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
It's in french, and about the whole system armstrong had in place to be warned about the controls and fear people had dealing with him. Michel Rieu, conseiller scientifique de l'Agence française de lutte contre le dopage, décrit le système mis en place par Lance Armstrong. Quel regard portez-vous sur l'épilogue de l'affaire Lance Armstrong ? Je ne suis pas très surpris. Depuis longtemps, Pierre Bordry, ancien président de l'Agence française de lutte contre le dopage (AFLD) et moi, étions en contact étroit avec l'Usada, l'agence américaine antidopage. Je rends hommage à son courage. Peu d'agences nationales auraient eu la même démarche. Officiellement, Lance Armstrong n'a jamais été contrôlé positif. Mais les témoignages recueillis l'ont mis en cause. D'autant que Lance Armstrong n'était guère un personnage plébiscité par l'ensemble des coureurs. Comment Lance Armstrong a-t-il trompé la vigilance des préleveurs ? Les préleveurs ont éprouvé des difficultés à effectuer des contrôles inopinés sans que Lance Armstrong puisse bénéficier d'un délai de vingt minutes. Il a été prévenu avant tous les contrôles. Je repense à un prélèvement inopiné alors qu'il s'entraînait dans le sud de la France lors de son retour sur le Tour en 2009. Son entourage avait accumulé prétextes et palabres pour obtenir ce fameux délai. En vingt minutes, beaucoup de manipulations sont possibles. Il effectuait des perfusions de sérum physiologique pour diluer son sang. Il remplaçait sa propre urine par une urine artificielle. Il s'administrait l'EPO par petites doses. La substance était indécelable. Sans les renseignements de la gendarmerie ou de la douane, il était impossible de combattre cette méthode. Sa victoire en 1999 est pourtant apparue comme celle du sursaut après le Tour marqué, l'année précédente, par les cas de dopage... Lance Armstrong a accumulé ses premières victoires sur le Tour à une période où le laboratoire de Chatenay-Malabry était autonome. Le ministère des sports gérait les contrôles en collaboration avec l'Union cycliste internationale (UCI). Il a fallu beaucoup de temps, en 2000, pour que la méthode officielle de détection de l'EPO soit validée par l'Agence mondiale antidopage (AMA). A l'époque, il y avait peu de contrôles inopinés, on savait que le maillot jaune ou le vainqueur de l'étape serait contrôlé. Tout était programmé. Depuis, les méthodes autour du dosage de l'EPO se sont affinées. Sur le Tour 1999, Lance Armstrong a été contrôlé positif aux corticoïdes mais l'affaire a été étouffée. De quels appuis bénéficiait-il dans cette logique de tricherie ? Ces appuis débordaient sur l'UCI et sur le Comité international olympique. Aussi, Lance Armstrong s'était entouré de scientifiques physiologistes, dont certains se sont défaussés par la suite. Ce personnage inspirait beaucoup de crainte. A l'UCI et parmi l'organisation du Tour, Amaury Sport Organisation (ASO), deux camps s'opposaient. Certains avaient peur qu'un scandale entraîne une remise en cause du passé. Ils ont préféré passer outre et ne voulaient pas abîmer l'image du sport. D'autres souhaitaient crever l'abcès et se débarrasser de l'influence d'Armstrong. Ces derniers avaient raison. Cet épilogue entache dix années du Tour. Etait-il vraiment impossible de contourner ces barrages ? C'était fort Chabrol. On ne savait qu'à la dernière minute dans quel hôtel il s'était installé. D'où ces nombreux barrages. Ce fut un vrai parcours du combattant car il était prévenu sur ses lieux de résidence. Il avait des moyens considérables pour se protéger et mettre en place une logistique. La rumeur voulait qu'il eût fait acheminer du sang depuis les Etats-Unis dans son jet privé. L'AFLD a-t-elle eu des doutes concernant le cas Armstrong ? L'AFLD n'est arrivée que tardivement sur le Tour, en 2007. En 2008, nous avions bénéficié d'une autonomie totale. L'UCI s'était alors retirée et nous avions détecté huit cas positifs à l'EPO. En 2009, nous avons contribué à diffuser un rapport, révélé par Le Monde, attestant que l'équipe d'Armstrong bénéficiait d'un traitement de faveur des inspecteurs de l'UCI. Nous étions en rupture avec l'UCI. Notre rôle était marginal mais nous étions au courant des difficultés éprouvées par les contrôleurs avec le coureur américain. En octobre 2009, Armstrong est convié à un déjeuner à l'Elysée. Derrière cette visite, on sait qu'il souhaitait obtenir le départ du président de l'AFLD, Pierre Bordry. Lequel a démissionné un an plus tard. En mars 2010, Armstrong a offert un vélo au chef de l'Etat. Quelques mois plus tard, le président de la République a profité d'une étape du Tour pour ériger Lance Armstrong en modèle pour la jeunesse. Ce fut abusif. Quels enseignements les agences antidopage doivent-elles en tirer ? Cet épilogue est très important pour la lutte contre le dopage. Cela démontre qu'aucun personnage, même puissant et protégé, n'est à l'abri. Il faut être extrêmement vigilant et conserver les échantillons huit ans, comme l'autorise le code mondial antidopage. Sur le Tour de France, les contrôleurs doivent avoir une réelle indépendance. Le cas Armstrong est l'exemple de tout ce qu'il ne faut pas faire. Il n'est pas un cas isolé. Son auréole a été consolidée au fil des années. Lance Armstrong est le produit d'un système, celui du pognon, de la gagne à tout prix, du retour sur investissement. | ||
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