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On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:
[quote]
Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world.
I agree rape culture exists.
Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you're alone, if you're with a stranger, if you're in a group, if you're in a group of strangers, if it's dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you're carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you're wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, who's around when the delivery guy comes, to get an apartment where you can see who's at the door before they can see you, to check before you open the door to the delivery guy, to own a dog or a dog-sound-making machine, to get a roommate, to take self-defense, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn't follow all the rules it's your fault.
That however is bullshit. Men are expected to do most of those things, many of which are also done in day to day life for everyone. Everyone is in danger in a dark alley. Maybe men don't get raped, but they get beaten within an inch of their life. At the end of the day, this is slightly off topic, but men do have to worry about these sorts of things as well. If you're wearing a suit (showing you're a respectable man earning a decent wage) potential rapists of women are likely also potential muggers or part of a gang that will steal that man's phone, wallet etc. I know this thread is about rape, but men have to worry about just as much as women when alone in a dark alley. Women are unlikely to get mugged. Men are unlikely to get raped. Not saying they're equal, but it should be considered.
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On August 24 2012 01:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:14 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were.
Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain.
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world. Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it. "A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm." How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us. It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect. So you've never heard the phrase "boys will be boys" spoken by apologists regarding why a woman should accept abuse as the norm?
Or people talking about how the woman was dressed "like a slut" and there for gave consent merely by her out fit. Or people who say the woman acted like a slut and deserved it? Because i sure have.
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On August 24 2012 01:14 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:
[quote]
I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world. Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it. "A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm." How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us. It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect.
I have to agree, this ''rape culture'' term is starting to seem like a worthless umbrella term to me. Things in society exist that downplay rape, but we are no more a rape culture than we are a murder culture. Even though without much effort I could make an equally impressive list of cultural elements that encourage murder.
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On August 24 2012 01:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:14 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were.
Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain.
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world. Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it. "A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm." How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us. It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect. So you've never heard the phrase "boys will be boys" spoken by apologists regarding why a woman should accept abuse as the norm?
QUOTED FOR TRUTH!!!!!
you have and you have accepted it as a valid argument because it is culturally normal to do so and you can relate as the privileged party.
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On August 24 2012 01:14 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:
[quote]
I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world. Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it. "A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm." How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us. It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect.
What the hell are you talking about??? Yes it is insulting! That's why it's a bad thing!
Men and women are both responsible for rape culture. I have no idea what kind of weird assumptions you've put on this. Rape culture is around. It is influencing our legal system. It's an actual issue. There is no "what some women think of us." This is not some weird misandrist idea. I don't know where you got this idea from, but you're wrong.
"Rape culture" is not "ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS." That's not what it means. That's not what anyone thinks it means. Jesus.
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United States41982 Posts
On August 24 2012 01:22 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:14 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were.
Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain.
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world. Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it. "A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm." How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us. It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect. I have to agree, this ''rape culture'' term is starting to seem like a worthless umbrella term to me. Things in society exist that downplay rape, but we are no more a rape culture than we are a murder culture. Even though without much effort I could make an equally impressive list of cultural elements that encourage murder.
What is the equivalent of "boys will be boys" that we, as a murder culture, use to explain why it's not a big deal that people are murdered and that anyone who thinks it is is just overreacting? I'm struggling to see the parallels. The point isn't that it happens, it's that it is institutionalised.
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On August 24 2012 01:17 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:53 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:50 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:48 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:43 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:39 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:36 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were.
Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain.
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I'm really confused by your question. You concede there may be grey areas in which their consent is granted based upon intimidation, even if the guy didn't intend to coerce the victim but you don't know how to handle them? Avoid the grey area, exactly as Sunset said. "There's this situation where I may accidentally rape someone if I do this thing, how do I handle it?" "Don't do that thing" Jeez I understand that haha, I as more questioning why one is acceptable and one is not, why can a man be placed into an awkward position where he repeatedly gets asked for sex while a women has more liberty in that subject. Is it because of the rarity of men getting raped? But with respect to that, are men really getting "regret sex" more than women? I mean people just don't think of it as rape because it was the guy and men are stereotypically sex hungry fiends that think of sex 34 times a day while women only do it 19 times a day on average? I suppose I'm just curious as to why the grey area only reflects onto men. In theory it doesn't, you could hypothetically raise a man with all the propaganda and sexuality that we project onto girls from an early age and then put them in an environment in which they're raised to feel that their purpose is to be objectified by women and that they don't have the right to their own body. Then tell them that they're wrong for feeling that they can say no and it's their fault anyway and that they're asking for it. Then get them drunk and put them in a strange environment with a physically intimidating woman who is aggressively pressuring them for sex. In that situation, sure, it reflects on women too. Until that happens though, welcome to rape culture. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/ That article you quoted there is extremely biased. When people in power refuse to take women’s rape charges seriously, it means there are no consequences for rapists, which makes them more free to rape. 95% of all female rape cases are taken seriously (at the very minimum). You always hear about rape victims on chat shows etc, how they dealt with it and got the support they needed. Male rape victims are basically never taken seriously? When was the last time you heard about a male rape victim anywhere. Most male rape victims don't even report the rape, so they can't talk about female rape needing to be taken more seriously. Vast majority of female rape cases aren't even reported, same as male. People in power typically buy into the same "asking for it" myths that much of the rest of society, particularly older generations, buy into. There was a US congressman failing to take it seriously not so long ago (Todd Akin), I'm not sure how you can argue that people in power get it. It's still a much larger proportion of rapes that are reported though. All I'm saying is that in terms of being taken seriously, women have nothing to complain about compared to males. source please? cause I'm almost positive your making things up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statisticsfirst google result. did you try that? I am furious with you and disgusted with your ignorance I'm having difficulty deciding where to start. First I'm going to ask you if you are legitimately feeling oppressed as a male in our society. Do you understand the degree of privilege you are entitled to by your penis? Do you acknowledge that the fact that assuming your heteronormitive, born to the sex that matches the gender you choose to represent and strait gives you increadable advantages everyday and from everyone? Do you even know what that means? Second I'm going to ask you why you think all rape cases are taken seriously. Have you been raped? Have you reported your rape to the police? Do you know anyone who has? I have heard testimonies from many people who have been raped and reported it to the police. Do you know what the slut walk stands for? Listen to their speakers. People who have actually been through what your trying to talk about. Women who are raped are often asked. was it your boyfriend? were you in his appartment? were you dressed provocatively? were you drinking? and if you don't understand why all these questions are victim blaming and irrelivant then try to culture yourself before spewing ignorant stuff into this thread that makes me lose faith in society. - male-female rape is the most common rape by an order of hundreds - (1995), sexual violence, and rape in particular, is considered the most under-reported violent crime - new laws have recently been introduce to have females lead rape cases due to how many were not taken seriously. basically everything you said is wrong. and your wrong. and your view is damaging to women in society. the vast majority is not reported women have way more to complain about then men about rape not being taken seriously smarten up
It appears I've somehow made you mad. At no point have I said men have more to lose from being raped or anything like that. I simply said, female to male rape is more common than you think, according to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender):
However, male victims of sexual abuse by females[23] often face social, political, and legal double standards.[24] While gender-neutral laws have combated the older perception that rape never occurs to men,[25] and other laws have eliminated the term altogether,[26] the double standards still remain.
That's all I've said.
The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1997) estimated that 91% of United States rape victims were female and 9% were male, with 99% of the offenders being male and 1% of the offenders being female.[1]
I have not denied the quoted fact. I have said however, that a larger proportion of women report being raped by a man than men report being raped by a woman.
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everyone who has ever uttered thought or sympathized with the idea that dressing a certain way or being too drunk is an excuse for rape is the definition of rape culture!
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Rape is when a person has sex with someone who doesnt want to
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On August 24 2012 01:27 ComaDose wrote:
everyone who has ever uttered thought or sympathized with the idea that dressing a certain way or being too drunk is an excuse for rape is the definition of rape culture!
Yes, this is a rather concise description.
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On August 24 2012 01:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:14 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were.
Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain.
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world. Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it. "A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm." How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us. It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect. So you've never heard the phrase "boys will be boys" spoken by apologists regarding why a woman should accept abuse as the norm?
So now a tagline that I've actually never heard is a guideline to life?
Do I need to take the "rape culture" points one by one?
I'll do a few, and for every point, ask yourself if this applies to our SOCIETY or if it only applies to a few people.
-Rape culture is encouraging male sexual aggression. > Not social, confined to bad individuals
-Rape culture is regarding violence as sexy and sexuality as violent > Nope
-Rape culture is treating rape as a compliment, as the unbridled passion stirred in a healthy man by a beautiful woman > Absurd
-Rape culture is treating straight sexuality as the norm. > Problem indeed - why does it have anything to do with rape?
-Rape culture is lumping queer sexuality into nonconsensual sexual practices like pedophilia and bestiality > Nothing to do with rape
-Rape culture is privileging heterosexuality > Nothing to do with rape
-Rape culture is rape being used as a weapon, a tool of war and genocide and oppression. > Absurd
-Rape culture is 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. > Not cultural
-Rape culture is encouraging men to use the language of rape to establish dominance over one another > Not convincing
-Rape culture is making rape a ubiquitous part of male-exclusive bonding. > That would suck for me if it were true!
-Rape culture is ignoring the cavernous need for men's prison reform > Fair enough
-Rape culture is 1 in 6 women being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. > Again, real problem but not cultural
-Rape culture is victim-blaming. > Confined to individuals
-Rape culture is a judge blaming a child for her own rape. > A judge
-Rape culture is a minister blaming his child victims. > A minister
...
etc.
Maybe I'm digging in the semantics and I shouldn't, but this absurd label is covering the real problem that is rape, by disguising it as a standard - which it isn't.
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On August 24 2012 01:28 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:27 ComaDose wrote:
everyone who has ever uttered thought or sympathized with the idea that dressing a certain way or being too drunk is an excuse for rape is the definition of rape culture! Yes, this is a rather concise description.
I don't think "excuse" is the right word personally.
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On August 24 2012 01:26 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:17 ComaDose wrote:On August 24 2012 00:53 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:50 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:48 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:43 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:39 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:36 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I'm really confused by your question. You concede there may be grey areas in which their consent is granted based upon intimidation, even if the guy didn't intend to coerce the victim but you don't know how to handle them? Avoid the grey area, exactly as Sunset said. "There's this situation where I may accidentally rape someone if I do this thing, how do I handle it?" "Don't do that thing" Jeez I understand that haha, I as more questioning why one is acceptable and one is not, why can a man be placed into an awkward position where he repeatedly gets asked for sex while a women has more liberty in that subject. Is it because of the rarity of men getting raped? But with respect to that, are men really getting "regret sex" more than women? I mean people just don't think of it as rape because it was the guy and men are stereotypically sex hungry fiends that think of sex 34 times a day while women only do it 19 times a day on average? I suppose I'm just curious as to why the grey area only reflects onto men. In theory it doesn't, you could hypothetically raise a man with all the propaganda and sexuality that we project onto girls from an early age and then put them in an environment in which they're raised to feel that their purpose is to be objectified by women and that they don't have the right to their own body. Then tell them that they're wrong for feeling that they can say no and it's their fault anyway and that they're asking for it. Then get them drunk and put them in a strange environment with a physically intimidating woman who is aggressively pressuring them for sex. In that situation, sure, it reflects on women too. Until that happens though, welcome to rape culture. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/ That article you quoted there is extremely biased. When people in power refuse to take women’s rape charges seriously, it means there are no consequences for rapists, which makes them more free to rape. 95% of all female rape cases are taken seriously (at the very minimum). You always hear about rape victims on chat shows etc, how they dealt with it and got the support they needed. Male rape victims are basically never taken seriously? When was the last time you heard about a male rape victim anywhere. Most male rape victims don't even report the rape, so they can't talk about female rape needing to be taken more seriously. Vast majority of female rape cases aren't even reported, same as male. People in power typically buy into the same "asking for it" myths that much of the rest of society, particularly older generations, buy into. There was a US congressman failing to take it seriously not so long ago (Todd Akin), I'm not sure how you can argue that people in power get it. It's still a much larger proportion of rapes that are reported though. All I'm saying is that in terms of being taken seriously, women have nothing to complain about compared to males. source please? cause I'm almost positive your making things up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statisticsfirst google result. did you try that? I am furious with you and disgusted with your ignorance I'm having difficulty deciding where to start. First I'm going to ask you if you are legitimately feeling oppressed as a male in our society. Do you understand the degree of privilege you are entitled to by your penis? Do you acknowledge that the fact that assuming your heteronormitive, born to the sex that matches the gender you choose to represent and strait gives you increadable advantages everyday and from everyone? Do you even know what that means? Second I'm going to ask you why you think all rape cases are taken seriously. Have you been raped? Have you reported your rape to the police? Do you know anyone who has? I have heard testimonies from many people who have been raped and reported it to the police. Do you know what the slut walk stands for? Listen to their speakers. People who have actually been through what your trying to talk about. Women who are raped are often asked. was it your boyfriend? were you in his appartment? were you dressed provocatively? were you drinking? and if you don't understand why all these questions are victim blaming and irrelivant then try to culture yourself before spewing ignorant stuff into this thread that makes me lose faith in society. - male-female rape is the most common rape by an order of hundreds - (1995), sexual violence, and rape in particular, is considered the most under-reported violent crime - new laws have recently been introduce to have females lead rape cases due to how many were not taken seriously. basically everything you said is wrong. and your wrong. and your view is damaging to women in society. the vast majority is not reported women have way more to complain about then men about rape not being taken seriously smarten up It appears I've somehow made you mad. At no point have I said men have more to lose from being raped or anything like that. I simply said, female to male rape is more common than you think, according to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender): Show nested quote +
However, male victims of sexual abuse by females[23] often face social, political, and legal double standards.[24] While gender-neutral laws have combated the older perception that rape never occurs to men,[25] and other laws have eliminated the term altogether,[26] the double standards still remain.
That's all I've said. Show nested quote +
The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1997) estimated that 91% of United States rape victims were female and 9% were male, with 99% of the offenders being male and 1% of the offenders being female.[1]
I have not denied the quoted fact. I have said however, that a larger proportion of women report being raped by a man than men report being raped by a woman.
NO!
YOU SAID: It's still a much larger proportion of rapes that are reported though. All I'm saying is that in terms of being taken seriously, women have nothing to complain about compared to males.
which has 2 points. both of which are wrong!
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On August 24 2012 01:28 Nomzter wrote:
Rape is when a person has sex with someone who doesnt want to
And you still have to elaborate on "sex"
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On August 24 2012 01:25 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:14 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were.
Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain.
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world. Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it. "A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm." How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us. It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect. What the hell are you talking about??? Yes it is insulting! That's why it's a bad thing! Men and women are both responsible for rape culture. I have no idea what kind of weird assumptions you've put on this. Rape culture is around. It is influencing our legal system. It's an actual issue. There is no "what some women think of us." This is not some weird misandrist idea. I don't know where you got this idea from, but you're wrong. "Rape culture" is not "ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS." That's not what it means. That's not what anyone thinks it means. Jesus.
I'm saying the "rape culture" term makes out rape to be the norm, and it's not. And to suggest that it's the norm is insulting.
There's nothing inconsistent in what I've said.
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Also, for people arguing what rape is, I'll add the definition of statutory rape in there:
Sexual intercourse with a person below a statutorily designated age.
This means in the UK, a 16 year old (of the age of consent) can go to jail for having sexual relations with a consenting 15 year old person (not of the age of consent). Is that rape?
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On August 24 2012 01:29 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:17 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:14 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world. Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it. "A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm." How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us. It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect. So you've never heard the phrase "boys will be boys" spoken by apologists regarding why a woman should accept abuse as the norm? So now a tagline that I've actually never heard is a guideline to life? Do I need to take the "rape culture" points one by one? I'll do a few, and for every point, ask yourself if this applies to our SOCIETY or if it only applies to a few people. -Rape culture is encouraging male sexual aggression. > Not social, confined to bad individuals -Rape culture is regarding violence as sexy and sexuality as violent > Nope -Rape culture is treating rape as a compliment, as the unbridled passion stirred in a healthy man by a beautiful woman > Absurd -Rape culture is treating straight sexuality as the norm. > Problem indeed - why does it have anything to do with rape? -Rape culture is lumping queer sexuality into nonconsensual sexual practices like pedophilia and bestiality > Nothing to do with rape -Rape culture is privileging heterosexuality > Nothing to do with rape -Rape culture is rape being used as a weapon, a tool of war and genocide and oppression. > Absurd -Rape culture is 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. > Not cultural -Rape culture is encouraging men to use the language of rape to establish dominance over one another > Not convincing -Rape culture is making rape a ubiquitous part of male-exclusive bonding. > That would suck for me if it were true! -Rape culture is ignoring the cavernous need for men's prison reform > Fair enough -Rape culture is 1 in 6 women being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. > Again, real problem but not cultural -Rape culture is victim-blaming. > Confined to individuals -Rape culture is a judge blaming a child for her own rape. > A judge -Rape culture is a minister blaming his child victims. > A minister ... etc. Maybe I'm digging in the semantics and I shouldn't, but this absurd label is covering the real problem that is rape, by disguising it as a standard - which it isn't.
For the love of god, click on my damn link:
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/radicalizing-consent-towards-implementing-an-affirmative-consent-model-in-new-yorks-rape-law/
This describes in detail how rape culture is affecting our law system in several ways and how we can try to change it. It affects Jury's decisions. It affects Prosecution decisions. It affects Police decisions. This is a real thing.
Stop acting as if this isn't an issue. It's a serious thing, and it does exist in American society.
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United States41982 Posts
On August 24 2012 01:32 Tao367 wrote:Also, for people arguing what rape is, I'll add the definition of statutory rape in there: This means in the UK, a 16 year old can go to jail for having sexual relations with a consenting 15 year old person. Is that rape?
In this case you're looking at whether a person is emotionally mature enough to consent. Some 15 year olds are, some 16 year olds aren't. It's an arbitrary line but you have to draw one somewhere because emotional maturity is a component of consent.
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On August 24 2012 01:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:22 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 01:14 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world. Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it. "A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm." How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us. It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect. I have to agree, this ''rape culture'' term is starting to seem like a worthless umbrella term to me. Things in society exist that downplay rape, but we are no more a rape culture than we are a murder culture. Even though without much effort I could make an equally impressive list of cultural elements that encourage murder. What is the equivalent of "boys will be boys" that we, as a murder culture, use to explain why it's not a big deal that people are murdered and that anyone who thinks it is is just overreacting? I'm struggling to see the parallels. The point isn't that it happens, it's that it is institutionalised.
I'm just gonna go ahead and concede that the the parallel with murder was a very poor one. I fully acknowledge that rape is too often trivialized, and victims are almost always blamed by way too many people. I geuss I just don't like this term ''rape culture'', because it seems a bit sensational.
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On August 24 2012 01:27 ComaDose wrote:
everyone who has ever uttered thought or sympathized with the idea that dressing a certain way or being too drunk is an excuse for rape is the definition of rape culture!
Don't lose your cool. It's harder for people to listen when you yell- even if you're trying to tell them the house is on fire so to speak.
An interesting link that KwarK posted a few months ago that I think is relevant to the disconnect between a brutal sexual assault that you would see dramatized on a cop show and the actual discussion
Rapists who don't think they're rapists
Short article from 2009 that looks at a study conducted by Thomas Millar. He asked nearly 2000 college students four questions
1) Have you ever attempted unsuccessfully to have intercourse with an adult by force or threat of force?
+ Show Spoiler +
2) Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone who did not want you to because they were too intoxicated to resist?
3) Have you ever had intercourse with someone by force or threat of force?
4) Have you ever had oral intercourse with someone by force or threat of force?
The result was indicative that participants were.. well, taken from the same article, "And they didn't just admit to raping—they admitted to raping repeatedly (as long as it's not really "rape," of course!) According to the study, a small percentage of men are responsible for committing a large portion of sexual assaults—that's a whole lot of "accidents," "misreadings," and "gray areas":"
http://www.wcsap.org/sites/www.wcsap.org/files/uploads/webinars/SV on Campus/Repeat Rape.pdf
Similar study in 2002, also includes a study of military personnel with a much higher rate of admittance to rape in all but the word.
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