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On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:01 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:59 KwarK wrote:On August 23 2012 23:57 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:53 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:31 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
I think what he was trying to say was that when they say "no" he stops, briefly pleads for sex and if they don't change their mind he leaves. I don't think he meant that he was thrusting during the "come on, please?" phase. Talk about a massive misquote... Let's take a single part of the sentence and destroy the entire meaning of it. You weren't being clear. One no is always enough. The two women in this thread are telling you one no means no, and you're all actually arguing we're wrong. It's actually incredible. I don't think anyone is arguing that sex should continue following the no. In other news, now it's your MOTHERFUCKING BIRTHDAY, MATE! <33333 No, I don't think people are saying that. I just think the issue ought to be completely dropped after the first no because saying no once is extremely difficult in vulnerable situations. Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? .
I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture.
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On August 24 2012 00:33 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:30 DoubleReed wrote:On August 24 2012 00:25 NicolBolas wrote:On August 24 2012 00:21 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:01 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:59 KwarK wrote:On August 23 2012 23:57 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:53 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
Talk about a massive misquote... Let's take a single part of the sentence and destroy the entire meaning of it. You weren't being clear. One no is always enough. The two women in this thread are telling you one no means no, and you're all actually arguing we're wrong. It's actually incredible. I don't think anyone is arguing that sex should continue following the no. In other news, now it's your MOTHERFUCKING BIRTHDAY, MATE! <33333 No, I don't think people are saying that. I just think the issue ought to be completely dropped after the first no because saying no once is extremely difficult in vulnerable situations. Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. My apologies then, but even not in a relationship you can get a feel for a person, and know that this can be ok. And what do you suppose happens when you get it wrong? Here's an idea: if she says no, assume that it's not her own personal opposite day and that she actually means it. More importantly, if she doesn't say yes, then consent is also not given. "Lack of a no" does not make any sense. And quite frankly, you should really discuss things like that before they actually happen. If you've had a fling sometimes the yes is supposedly implied, and men end up in court for consensual sex. Should condoms come packaged with a consent form, and UV lights to verify that her ID that shows she's over 18 is indeed legit? Law's a clusterfuck and it's hard to navigate.
Sigh, is no one going to read my link?
What you are referring to is called "enthusiastic consent." There's nothing inconsistent about that and using an affirmative consent model of "yes means yes."
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/radicalizing-consent-towards-implementing-an-affirmative-consent-model-in-new-yorks-rape-law/
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On August 24 2012 00:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:39 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:36 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:01 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:59 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
I don't think anyone is arguing that sex should continue following the no. In other news, now it's your MOTHERFUCKING BIRTHDAY, MATE! <33333 No, I don't think people are saying that. I just think the issue ought to be completely dropped after the first no because saying no once is extremely difficult in vulnerable situations. Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I'm really confused by your question. You concede there may be grey areas in which their consent is granted based upon intimidation, even if the guy didn't intend to coerce the victim but you don't know how to handle them? Avoid the grey area, exactly as Sunset said. "There's this situation where I may accidentally rape someone if I do this thing, how do I handle it?" "Don't do that thing" Jeez I understand that haha, I as more questioning why one is acceptable and one is not, why can a man be placed into an awkward position where he repeatedly gets asked for sex while a women has more liberty in that subject. Is it because of the rarity of men getting raped? But with respect to that, are men really getting "regret sex" more than women? I mean people just don't think of it as rape because it was the guy and men are stereotypically sex hungry fiends that think of sex 34 times a day while women only do it 19 times a day on average? I suppose I'm just curious as to why the grey area only reflects onto men. In theory it doesn't, you could hypothetically raise a man with all the propaganda and sexuality that we project onto girls from an early age and then put them in an environment in which they're raised to feel that their purpose is to be objectified by women and that they don't have the right to their own body. Then tell them that they're wrong for feeling that they can say no and it's their fault anyway and that they're asking for it. Then get them drunk and put them in a strange environment with a physically intimidating woman who is aggressively pressuring them for sex. In that situation, sure, it reflects on women too. Until that happens though, welcome to rape culture. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/
That article you quoted there is extremely biased.
When people in power refuse to take women’s rape charges seriously, it means there are no consequences for rapists, which makes them more free to rape.
95% of all female rape cases are taken seriously (at the very minimum). You always hear about rape victims on chat shows etc, how they dealt with it and got the support they needed. Male rape victims are basically never taken seriously? When was the last time you heard about a male rape victim anywhere. Most male rape victims don't even report the rape, so they can't talk about female rape needing to be taken more seriously.
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On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:01 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:59 KwarK wrote:On August 23 2012 23:57 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:53 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
Talk about a massive misquote... Let's take a single part of the sentence and destroy the entire meaning of it. You weren't being clear. One no is always enough. The two women in this thread are telling you one no means no, and you're all actually arguing we're wrong. It's actually incredible. I don't think anyone is arguing that sex should continue following the no. In other news, now it's your MOTHERFUCKING BIRTHDAY, MATE! <33333 No, I don't think people are saying that. I just think the issue ought to be completely dropped after the first no because saying no once is extremely difficult in vulnerable situations. Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture.
Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"?
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United States41982 Posts
On August 24 2012 00:48 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:43 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:39 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:36 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:01 SunsetSC2 wrote:
[quote]
In other news, now it's your MOTHERFUCKING BIRTHDAY, MATE! <33333
No, I don't think people are saying that. I just think the issue ought to be completely dropped after the first no because saying no once is extremely difficult in vulnerable situations. Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I'm really confused by your question. You concede there may be grey areas in which their consent is granted based upon intimidation, even if the guy didn't intend to coerce the victim but you don't know how to handle them? Avoid the grey area, exactly as Sunset said. "There's this situation where I may accidentally rape someone if I do this thing, how do I handle it?" "Don't do that thing" Jeez I understand that haha, I as more questioning why one is acceptable and one is not, why can a man be placed into an awkward position where he repeatedly gets asked for sex while a women has more liberty in that subject. Is it because of the rarity of men getting raped? But with respect to that, are men really getting "regret sex" more than women? I mean people just don't think of it as rape because it was the guy and men are stereotypically sex hungry fiends that think of sex 34 times a day while women only do it 19 times a day on average? I suppose I'm just curious as to why the grey area only reflects onto men. In theory it doesn't, you could hypothetically raise a man with all the propaganda and sexuality that we project onto girls from an early age and then put them in an environment in which they're raised to feel that their purpose is to be objectified by women and that they don't have the right to their own body. Then tell them that they're wrong for feeling that they can say no and it's their fault anyway and that they're asking for it. Then get them drunk and put them in a strange environment with a physically intimidating woman who is aggressively pressuring them for sex. In that situation, sure, it reflects on women too. Until that happens though, welcome to rape culture. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/ That article you quoted there is extremely biased. Show nested quote + When people in power refuse to take women’s rape charges seriously, it means there are no consequences for rapists, which makes them more free to rape. 95% of all female rape cases are taken seriously (at the very minimum). You always hear about rape victims on chat shows etc, how they dealt with it and got the support they needed. Male rape victims are basically never taken seriously? When was the last time you heard about a male rape victim anywhere. Most male rape victims don't even report the rape, so they can't talk about female rape needing to be taken more seriously.
Vast majority of female rape cases aren't even reported, same as male. People in power typically buy into the same "asking for it" myths that much of the rest of society, particularly older generations, buy into. There was a US congressman failing to take it seriously not so long ago (Todd Akin), I'm not sure how you can argue that people in power get it.
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United States41982 Posts
On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:01 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:59 KwarK wrote:On August 23 2012 23:57 SunsetSC2 wrote:
[quote]
You weren't being clear.
One no is always enough.
The two women in this thread are telling you one no means no, and you're all actually arguing we're wrong.
It's actually incredible. I don't think anyone is arguing that sex should continue following the no. In other news, now it's your MOTHERFUCKING BIRTHDAY, MATE! <33333 No, I don't think people are saying that. I just think the issue ought to be completely dropped after the first no because saying no once is extremely difficult in vulnerable situations. Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"?
No, it's not.
It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is.
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On August 24 2012 00:50 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:48 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:43 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:39 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:36 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:
[quote]
Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I'm really confused by your question. You concede there may be grey areas in which their consent is granted based upon intimidation, even if the guy didn't intend to coerce the victim but you don't know how to handle them? Avoid the grey area, exactly as Sunset said. "There's this situation where I may accidentally rape someone if I do this thing, how do I handle it?" "Don't do that thing" Jeez I understand that haha, I as more questioning why one is acceptable and one is not, why can a man be placed into an awkward position where he repeatedly gets asked for sex while a women has more liberty in that subject. Is it because of the rarity of men getting raped? But with respect to that, are men really getting "regret sex" more than women? I mean people just don't think of it as rape because it was the guy and men are stereotypically sex hungry fiends that think of sex 34 times a day while women only do it 19 times a day on average? I suppose I'm just curious as to why the grey area only reflects onto men. In theory it doesn't, you could hypothetically raise a man with all the propaganda and sexuality that we project onto girls from an early age and then put them in an environment in which they're raised to feel that their purpose is to be objectified by women and that they don't have the right to their own body. Then tell them that they're wrong for feeling that they can say no and it's their fault anyway and that they're asking for it. Then get them drunk and put them in a strange environment with a physically intimidating woman who is aggressively pressuring them for sex. In that situation, sure, it reflects on women too. Until that happens though, welcome to rape culture. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/ That article you quoted there is extremely biased. When people in power refuse to take women’s rape charges seriously, it means there are no consequences for rapists, which makes them more free to rape. 95% of all female rape cases are taken seriously (at the very minimum). You always hear about rape victims on chat shows etc, how they dealt with it and got the support they needed. Male rape victims are basically never taken seriously? When was the last time you heard about a male rape victim anywhere. Most male rape victims don't even report the rape, so they can't talk about female rape needing to be taken more seriously. Vast majority of female rape cases aren't even reported, same as male. People in power typically buy into the same "asking for it" myths that much of the rest of society, particularly older generations, buy into. There was a US congressman failing to take it seriously not so long ago (Todd Akin), I'm not sure how you can argue that people in power get it.
It's still a much larger proportion of rapes that are reported though. All I'm saying is that in terms of being taken seriously, women have nothing to complain about compared to males.
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On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:01 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:59 KwarK wrote:On August 23 2012 23:57 SunsetSC2 wrote:
[quote]
You weren't being clear.
One no is always enough.
The two women in this thread are telling you one no means no, and you're all actually arguing we're wrong.
It's actually incredible. I don't think anyone is arguing that sex should continue following the no. In other news, now it's your MOTHERFUCKING BIRTHDAY, MATE! <33333 No, I don't think people are saying that. I just think the issue ought to be completely dropped after the first no because saying no once is extremely difficult in vulnerable situations. Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"?
Well, personally I have no experience with one-night stands. I know a lot of feminists who are hyper-critical of any sort of pick-up artists in a manner that's not really fair, but rape culture still exists and can still be tapped into in many of these situations. The least you can do is to be aware of it and try to avoid at least the suspicion of taking advantage of it. Although of course it's just a word and it can be abused by either side.
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On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:01 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:59 KwarK wrote:On August 23 2012 23:57 SunsetSC2 wrote:
[quote]
You weren't being clear.
One no is always enough.
The two women in this thread are telling you one no means no, and you're all actually arguing we're wrong.
It's actually incredible. I don't think anyone is arguing that sex should continue following the no. In other news, now it's your MOTHERFUCKING BIRTHDAY, MATE! <33333 No, I don't think people are saying that. I just think the issue ought to be completely dropped after the first no because saying no once is extremely difficult in vulnerable situations. Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"?
No, rape culture is the pervasive parts of culture that blame rape victims for rape. Such as Todd Akin's comment about "legitimate rape" and it rarely leads to pregnancy. It scrutinizes a woman's body language and clothing to make sure there's absolutely nothing that could possibly construe that she wanted the rape. It puts all the onus on the woman for getting raped, and zero responsibility on the man who supposedly "made a mistake" and could not have possibly gotten consent. It also is things like the weird ideas that women are constantly lying about rape and have no idea what "rape" actually entails, so they need to have it explained to them by dimwitted men.
There is nothing 'sex-negative' about the idea of 'rape culture.' You're conflating too separate ideas.
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United States41982 Posts
On August 24 2012 00:53 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:50 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:48 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:43 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:39 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:36 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:
[quote]
I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I'm really confused by your question. You concede there may be grey areas in which their consent is granted based upon intimidation, even if the guy didn't intend to coerce the victim but you don't know how to handle them? Avoid the grey area, exactly as Sunset said. "There's this situation where I may accidentally rape someone if I do this thing, how do I handle it?" "Don't do that thing" Jeez I understand that haha, I as more questioning why one is acceptable and one is not, why can a man be placed into an awkward position where he repeatedly gets asked for sex while a women has more liberty in that subject. Is it because of the rarity of men getting raped? But with respect to that, are men really getting "regret sex" more than women? I mean people just don't think of it as rape because it was the guy and men are stereotypically sex hungry fiends that think of sex 34 times a day while women only do it 19 times a day on average? I suppose I'm just curious as to why the grey area only reflects onto men. In theory it doesn't, you could hypothetically raise a man with all the propaganda and sexuality that we project onto girls from an early age and then put them in an environment in which they're raised to feel that their purpose is to be objectified by women and that they don't have the right to their own body. Then tell them that they're wrong for feeling that they can say no and it's their fault anyway and that they're asking for it. Then get them drunk and put them in a strange environment with a physically intimidating woman who is aggressively pressuring them for sex. In that situation, sure, it reflects on women too. Until that happens though, welcome to rape culture. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/ That article you quoted there is extremely biased. When people in power refuse to take women’s rape charges seriously, it means there are no consequences for rapists, which makes them more free to rape. 95% of all female rape cases are taken seriously (at the very minimum). You always hear about rape victims on chat shows etc, how they dealt with it and got the support they needed. Male rape victims are basically never taken seriously? When was the last time you heard about a male rape victim anywhere. Most male rape victims don't even report the rape, so they can't talk about female rape needing to be taken more seriously. Vast majority of female rape cases aren't even reported, same as male. People in power typically buy into the same "asking for it" myths that much of the rest of society, particularly older generations, buy into. There was a US congressman failing to take it seriously not so long ago (Todd Akin), I'm not sure how you can argue that people in power get it. It's still a much larger proportion of rapes that are reported though. All I'm saying is that in terms of being taken seriously, women have nothing to complain about compared to males.
If you really believe that then start a campaign to address that. That doesn't mean that rape cases in which the victim is female are taken sufficiently seriously. A look at some of the posts in this topic will show you a proportion of society who thinks it's fine, justifiable or just plain funny.
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On August 24 2012 00:30 Kevan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:25 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:23 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:17 Kevan wrote:
If a girl tells you that she wants you to rape her, should it even be called rape then? It might be forced and there may be threats of violence or even just actual violence. Like you kind of have her consent but don't have her consent but you have her consent to not have it. If a person tells you they want you to rape them, it's not rape. At that point, it's consensual rough sex. Nothing more. This is something that should only be attempted in a relationship in which you know and trust the other partner and even then it should be prenegotiated to a ridiculous degree. As with all BDSM play, keep it safe, sane and consensual. There are some sex things which you just can't safely do with strangers or near strangers, it's unfortunate but that's the way it is. Yes, common sense should prevail, but if the situation mentioned ever happened, it's not rape. There is genuinely no reason for a girl to claim she was raped at this point. What if she was gagged and tied up and couldn't actually say stop when she really wanted it to stop for some reason? Would that be classified as rape?
Safe 'word' is a misnomer. Also consent in writing unless you're in some creepy club or something.
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On August 24 2012 00:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:53 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:50 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:48 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:43 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:39 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:36 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were.
Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain.
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I'm really confused by your question. You concede there may be grey areas in which their consent is granted based upon intimidation, even if the guy didn't intend to coerce the victim but you don't know how to handle them? Avoid the grey area, exactly as Sunset said. "There's this situation where I may accidentally rape someone if I do this thing, how do I handle it?" "Don't do that thing" Jeez I understand that haha, I as more questioning why one is acceptable and one is not, why can a man be placed into an awkward position where he repeatedly gets asked for sex while a women has more liberty in that subject. Is it because of the rarity of men getting raped? But with respect to that, are men really getting "regret sex" more than women? I mean people just don't think of it as rape because it was the guy and men are stereotypically sex hungry fiends that think of sex 34 times a day while women only do it 19 times a day on average? I suppose I'm just curious as to why the grey area only reflects onto men. In theory it doesn't, you could hypothetically raise a man with all the propaganda and sexuality that we project onto girls from an early age and then put them in an environment in which they're raised to feel that their purpose is to be objectified by women and that they don't have the right to their own body. Then tell them that they're wrong for feeling that they can say no and it's their fault anyway and that they're asking for it. Then get them drunk and put them in a strange environment with a physically intimidating woman who is aggressively pressuring them for sex. In that situation, sure, it reflects on women too. Until that happens though, welcome to rape culture. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/ That article you quoted there is extremely biased. When people in power refuse to take women’s rape charges seriously, it means there are no consequences for rapists, which makes them more free to rape. 95% of all female rape cases are taken seriously (at the very minimum). You always hear about rape victims on chat shows etc, how they dealt with it and got the support they needed. Male rape victims are basically never taken seriously? When was the last time you heard about a male rape victim anywhere. Most male rape victims don't even report the rape, so they can't talk about female rape needing to be taken more seriously. Vast majority of female rape cases aren't even reported, same as male. People in power typically buy into the same "asking for it" myths that much of the rest of society, particularly older generations, buy into. There was a US congressman failing to take it seriously not so long ago (Todd Akin), I'm not sure how you can argue that people in power get it. It's still a much larger proportion of rapes that are reported though. All I'm saying is that in terms of being taken seriously, women have nothing to complain about compared to males. If you really believe that then start a campaign to address that. That doesn't mean that rape cases in which the victim is female are taken sufficiently seriously. A look at some of the posts in this topic will show you a proportion of society who thinks it's fine, justifiable or just plain funny.
They're entitled to their opinion, just as me and you. However, responding with "start a campaign to address that" is irrelevant to the topic at hand. I was merely commenting on the topic with my opinion. As for the people that find it funny, I respect that they can have an opinion, but Itend to ignore the posts where people don't at least explain their opinions.
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On August 24 2012 00:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:53 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:50 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:48 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:43 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:39 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:36 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were.
Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain.
You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I'm really confused by your question. You concede there may be grey areas in which their consent is granted based upon intimidation, even if the guy didn't intend to coerce the victim but you don't know how to handle them? Avoid the grey area, exactly as Sunset said. "There's this situation where I may accidentally rape someone if I do this thing, how do I handle it?" "Don't do that thing" Jeez I understand that haha, I as more questioning why one is acceptable and one is not, why can a man be placed into an awkward position where he repeatedly gets asked for sex while a women has more liberty in that subject. Is it because of the rarity of men getting raped? But with respect to that, are men really getting "regret sex" more than women? I mean people just don't think of it as rape because it was the guy and men are stereotypically sex hungry fiends that think of sex 34 times a day while women only do it 19 times a day on average? I suppose I'm just curious as to why the grey area only reflects onto men. In theory it doesn't, you could hypothetically raise a man with all the propaganda and sexuality that we project onto girls from an early age and then put them in an environment in which they're raised to feel that their purpose is to be objectified by women and that they don't have the right to their own body. Then tell them that they're wrong for feeling that they can say no and it's their fault anyway and that they're asking for it. Then get them drunk and put them in a strange environment with a physically intimidating woman who is aggressively pressuring them for sex. In that situation, sure, it reflects on women too. Until that happens though, welcome to rape culture. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/ That article you quoted there is extremely biased. When people in power refuse to take women’s rape charges seriously, it means there are no consequences for rapists, which makes them more free to rape. 95% of all female rape cases are taken seriously (at the very minimum). You always hear about rape victims on chat shows etc, how they dealt with it and got the support they needed. Male rape victims are basically never taken seriously? When was the last time you heard about a male rape victim anywhere. Most male rape victims don't even report the rape, so they can't talk about female rape needing to be taken more seriously. Vast majority of female rape cases aren't even reported, same as male. People in power typically buy into the same "asking for it" myths that much of the rest of society, particularly older generations, buy into. There was a US congressman failing to take it seriously not so long ago (Todd Akin), I'm not sure how you can argue that people in power get it. It's still a much larger proportion of rapes that are reported though. All I'm saying is that in terms of being taken seriously, women have nothing to complain about compared to males. If you really believe that then start a campaign to address that. That doesn't mean that rape cases in which the victim is female are taken sufficiently seriously. A look at some of the posts in this topic will show you a proportion of society who thinks it's fine, justifiable or just plain funny.
You know what country has real rape culture? South Africa. Now that is some crazy shit. I really don't think rape culture in the united states is as prevalent or a big of an issue as most feminists would have me believe, but perhaps that's because southern girls are the most upfront, brave, and direct women on the planet. Also, on a whole I think the issue is fixing itself with better education and equal treatment of genders in public places. It's no like some vast conspiracy
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On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:01 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:59 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
I don't think anyone is arguing that sex should continue following the no. In other news, now it's your MOTHERFUCKING BIRTHDAY, MATE! <33333 No, I don't think people are saying that. I just think the issue ought to be completely dropped after the first no because saying no once is extremely difficult in vulnerable situations. Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is.
I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread.
If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture.
"Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it.
Edit: Oh and the wiki entry says sexual objectification is part of the "rape culture". While it can be argued that it's disrespectful to women or sexist (although I don't agree) to actually have hot chicks with light clothing at car shows and in magazines or in porn, I don't see how that has anything to do with rape. And I've heard that argument before on tumblr's feminists boards. Many seem to think porn is rape and stuff like that. Come on.
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United States41982 Posts
On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:On August 24 2012 00:01 SunsetSC2 wrote:
[quote]
In other news, now it's your MOTHERFUCKING BIRTHDAY, MATE! <33333
No, I don't think people are saying that. I just think the issue ought to be completely dropped after the first no because saying no once is extremely difficult in vulnerable situations. Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it.
Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are.
http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html
It is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world.
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On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:18 Crushinator wrote:
[quote]
Oh please. I know my girlfriend well enough that I know when I can continue pursuing sex after she's said no the first time. Sometimes I will do it fairly agressively, and sometimes without success. She at times practically rapes me. We are both very secure with this, I don't know why this is a problem according to you. I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world.
Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it.
"A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm."
How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us.
It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect.
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On August 24 2012 00:56 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:30 Kevan wrote:On August 24 2012 00:25 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:23 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:17 Kevan wrote:
If a girl tells you that she wants you to rape her, should it even be called rape then? It might be forced and there may be threats of violence or even just actual violence. Like you kind of have her consent but don't have her consent but you have her consent to not have it. If a person tells you they want you to rape them, it's not rape. At that point, it's consensual rough sex. Nothing more. This is something that should only be attempted in a relationship in which you know and trust the other partner and even then it should be prenegotiated to a ridiculous degree. As with all BDSM play, keep it safe, sane and consensual. There are some sex things which you just can't safely do with strangers or near strangers, it's unfortunate but that's the way it is. Yes, common sense should prevail, but if the situation mentioned ever happened, it's not rape. There is genuinely no reason for a girl to claim she was raped at this point. What if she was gagged and tied up and couldn't actually say stop when she really wanted it to stop for some reason? Would that be classified as rape? Safe 'word' is a misnomer. Also consent in writing unless you're in some creepy club or something.
From my experience, it has to be both safe word or safe nonverbal signal.
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On August 23 2012 15:29 zalz wrote:
I think if a women is exceptionally intoxicated, it might also consitute rape, because she can't in all seriousness make any real choices.
If a man gets really drunk and simultaneously, a woman gets real drunk, both highly intoxicated people have consentual sex, the woman can later claim she has been raped, the man can't. That doesn't seem like a fair system.
In dubio pro reo doesn't seem to apply in rape cases and even if in one of a thousand cases a man gets incarcerated because a butthurt (no pun intended) feminist regrets a drunken decision, this is is a serious flaw in any justice system.
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On August 24 2012 00:53 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:50 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:48 Tao367 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:43 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:39 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:36 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:
[quote]
I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I'm really confused by your question. You concede there may be grey areas in which their consent is granted based upon intimidation, even if the guy didn't intend to coerce the victim but you don't know how to handle them? Avoid the grey area, exactly as Sunset said. "There's this situation where I may accidentally rape someone if I do this thing, how do I handle it?" "Don't do that thing" Jeez I understand that haha, I as more questioning why one is acceptable and one is not, why can a man be placed into an awkward position where he repeatedly gets asked for sex while a women has more liberty in that subject. Is it because of the rarity of men getting raped? But with respect to that, are men really getting "regret sex" more than women? I mean people just don't think of it as rape because it was the guy and men are stereotypically sex hungry fiends that think of sex 34 times a day while women only do it 19 times a day on average? I suppose I'm just curious as to why the grey area only reflects onto men. In theory it doesn't, you could hypothetically raise a man with all the propaganda and sexuality that we project onto girls from an early age and then put them in an environment in which they're raised to feel that their purpose is to be objectified by women and that they don't have the right to their own body. Then tell them that they're wrong for feeling that they can say no and it's their fault anyway and that they're asking for it. Then get them drunk and put them in a strange environment with a physically intimidating woman who is aggressively pressuring them for sex. In that situation, sure, it reflects on women too. Until that happens though, welcome to rape culture. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/ That article you quoted there is extremely biased. When people in power refuse to take women’s rape charges seriously, it means there are no consequences for rapists, which makes them more free to rape. 95% of all female rape cases are taken seriously (at the very minimum). You always hear about rape victims on chat shows etc, how they dealt with it and got the support they needed. Male rape victims are basically never taken seriously? When was the last time you heard about a male rape victim anywhere. Most male rape victims don't even report the rape, so they can't talk about female rape needing to be taken more seriously. Vast majority of female rape cases aren't even reported, same as male. People in power typically buy into the same "asking for it" myths that much of the rest of society, particularly older generations, buy into. There was a US congressman failing to take it seriously not so long ago (Todd Akin), I'm not sure how you can argue that people in power get it. It's still a much larger proportion of rapes that are reported though. All I'm saying is that in terms of being taken seriously, women have nothing to complain about compared to males.
source please? cause I'm almost positive your making things up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
first google result. did you try that? I am furious with you and disgusted with your ignorance I'm having difficulty deciding where to start.
First I'm going to ask you if you are legitimately feeling oppressed as a male in our society. Do you understand the degree of privilege you are entitled to by your penis? Do you acknowledge that the fact that assuming your heteronormitive, born to the sex that matches the gender you choose to represent and strait gives you increadable advantages everyday and from everyone? Do you even know what that means?
Second I'm going to ask you why you think all rape cases are taken seriously. Have you been raped? Have you reported your rape to the police? Do you know anyone who has? I have heard testimonies from many people who have been raped and reported it to the police. Do you know what the slut walk stands for? Listen to their speakers. People who have actually been through what your trying to talk about.
Women who are raped are often asked. was it your boyfriend? were you in his appartment? were you dressed provocatively? were you drinking? and if you don't understand why all these questions are victim blaming and irrelivant then try to culture yourself before spewing ignorant stuff into this thread that makes me lose faith in society.
- male-female rape is the most common rape by an order of hundreds
- (1995), sexual violence, and rape in particular, is considered the most under-reported violent crime
- new laws have recently been introduce to have females lead rape cases due to how many were not taken seriously.
basically everything you said is wrong. and your wrong. and your view is damaging to women in society.
the vast majority is not reported
women have way more to complain about then men about rape not being taken seriously
smarten up
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United States41982 Posts
On August 24 2012 01:14 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:10 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 01:07 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:52 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:49 Djzapz wrote:On August 24 2012 00:45 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 00:30 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:28 KwarK wrote:On August 24 2012 00:24 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 24 2012 00:20 SunsetSC2 wrote:
[quote]
I'm not talking about people in relationships, for crying out loud. Actually that wasn't very clear and it could be misquoted that you were. Frankly, speaking outside the limits of a relationship, I can't help but see no issue in a man who has been getting signs (they're rather simple) to press the subject. I can see that if a girl really means no, it should be obvious but a lot of the time they're drunk and giggling which gives men very mixed signals, especially if she has been hanging on your arm all night. Generally speaking, and I'll stick to this as I've never been commited for rape charges but have had my fair share of 1 night stands and everything in between that asking a second time with a question such as "are you sure" or "not tonight?" etc is completely acceptable and totally in the women being asked hands to shut down again, you can't argue "well she said no the first time, but he asked again and she said yes... That's rape! No that is consent and unless there was any physical trauma or threatening action I can't help but see no issue. Please go on to explain. You can happily go "there was no threatening action" but you're a stranger to them and they may be in a strange environment. There's a fuckload of coercive rape culture shit that you simply don't know about because you're a man. I'm not saying that you were coercive or that you would ignore a "no" but you simply need to appear coercive for her decision to be influenced and you can't always tell how you are perceived. This is the grey area issue with pressuring with a stranger. Exactly so it's grey, how do you handle grey areas? One the woman should learn to understand her rights and be more entitled to herself, I can't understand how a man can say "no" and be begged and begged (which happens, women are notorious for begging for sex when their partner or non-partner aren't interested) but a man asks once or twice and he comes off as the rapist if she agrees and regrets the next day... Hell I've had regret sex, I: think it's a very natural thing. You get drunk, you can't tell what's what and you have sex with a girl who isn't attractive in the personality or physicality sense but she came on to you and you just kinda fell into it, would that be rape because I never said yes or no? . I've never heard of 'women begging an uninterested partner for sex' being something that happens frequently and that they are notorious for. Part of rape culture is the lingering threat of violence that underpins a lot of negotiating for sex. If your potential partner ever feels even slightly threatened or coerced then it might not be technically rape, but you're still taking advantage of rape culture and taking advantage of her. If you are very clear about the lack of coercion then in many circumstances it might be okay to ask a few follow-up questions as part of the conversation; since after all I don't see how asking two times is automatically more coercive than asking one time, when even asking once can already be coercive. However, you need to be very careful and it's probably a bad idea. Women doing the same to men is different because the threat of violence is gone, but of course men can still be coerced in different ways and it's not acceptable if they would do something like that. I don't think it's wise to put up with something like it. It's still different than the same scenario with reverse gender though, simply because of the different context of rape culture. Isn't "rape culture" a bullshit tagline that sex-negative feminists use to blur the line between consensual sex and rape to get you to post ridiculous shit like "you're using the rape culture to get consensual-ish sex"? No, it's not. It's a real and oppressive thing and acknowledging it would go a long way to make sex more consensual and enjoyable for everyone. Nothing about it is sex negative, sex where the women isn't consenting purely to try and find the safest and least confrontational way out of the situation is actually better than when she is. I think you're wrong. "Rape culture" is a disgusting and ridiculous name given to a social problem which is made out to be cultural, when reality it is confined to some people and organizations, and not widespread. If I look over the wiki entry, it talks about a culture in which rape is normalized, which is not the case in the Western world, and to say that it is is just alarmist BS. A lot of rapes occur, that doesn't make it part of the culture. A lot of people make excuses and even condone it, but it's still not part of the culture. "Rape culture" is a popular term used because it's striking and surprising and seems powerful. It's essentially a term used to make an argument, and to convince people that the problem is real. And while it is real that some, or even a LOT of people are part of this "Rape apologists" bunch, it's not an excuse for making cute little titles for it. Take a look at this link, it's what I would have linked earlier if I'd found it at the time. It's a good list of what the issues regarding rape culture are. http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.htmlIt is my belief that rape culture exists in the western world. Rape culture only exists in the western world if you're willing to scrap the word culture and use your own definition for it. "A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm." How does that not seem like BS to everyone here? Physical and emotional "terrorism"? That's insulting. You should be insulted. Any man I know would be disgusted to hear that this is what some women think of us. It's not my norm, and it's not the norm of ANYONE I respect.
So you've never heard the phrase "boys will be boys" spoken by apologists regarding why a woman should accept abuse as the norm?
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|
EPT
