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On August 13 2012 03:03 Thorakh wrote:
That was about race. Cultures can be objectively inferior. Race can not.
Huh? Objectively, really?
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On August 13 2012 03:03 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here. That was about race. Cultures can be objectively inferior. Race can not.
Do you even understand what you're spewing out here?
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
The biggest wars in history started by people calling others inferior. Be it race, religion or culture. You're pretty much one step away from calling for a holy war on those stupid infidels with the inferior culture.
PS: German Shepherd or Poodle, do you think they one of them can be objectively inferior or not? I'll help you out, the correct answer is: "For what?" - it's exactly the same with human race, religion or culture. Each one has flaws, each one has merits. You're proclaiming that your culture in it's entirety is superior to another one and therefor has a god-given right to call out the other culture. I think that's pretty disgusting.
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On August 13 2012 03:15 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it.
It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad.
Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit.
One can argue that gay is bad because if everyone was gay, our species would go extinct. That is a rational argument. Opposing to that is the fact that this is never ever going to be the case, so gays don't matter in the reproduction part of our species. You just refuted your own argument and therefore it's not a valid rational argument.
One could even further refute it by postulating that even if the entire human population was gay, we could still make babies. I can certainly see such a society function without any problems.
It wasn´t only about race, it was about culture as well. Culture can not be inferior, as culture is, as you mentioned a sum of beliefs, values and norms. Yet you will be hard pressed to identify this culture, where a sexist or homophobic notion is shared unanimously. And even if appears to you this way, you wont be able to judge it as you can´t claim to know said culture close enough, if you don´t share it
I didnt say what you said: the point is, there is no such thing as a generic islamic culture. Furthermore i didnt raise the term "arabic culture", i merely referred to it. You cannot divide cultural complexes into segments in order to label one of them as inferior. Liberal arabic movements view themselves as part of that certain culture, that is meant to be labeled as inferior throughout this discussion.
I think you are right. What I mean by "inferior culture" are specific people with an inferior set of beliefs. Indeed not every person who generally identifies himself with culture X also shares the exact copy of that culture's set of values.
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small.
PS: German Shepherd or Poodle, do you think they one of them can be objectively inferior or not? I'll help you out, the correct answer is: "For what?" - it's exactly the same with human race, religion or culture. Each one has flaws, each one has merits. You're proclaiming that your culture in it's entirety is superior to another one and therefor has a god-given right to call out the other culture. I think that's pretty disgusting. I'm certainly not calling an entire culture inferior. Culture X simply has more negative traits than culture Y and therefore culture X is inferior to culture Y.
The biggest wars in history started by people calling others inferior. Be it race, religion or culture. You're pretty much one step away from calling for a holy war on those stupid infidels with the inferior culture. You're putting words in my mouth. I have no desire to harm anyone.
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On August 13 2012 03:20 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:17 SupLilSon wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 03:07 SupLilSon wrote:On August 13 2012 03:03 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here. That was about race. Cultures can be objectively inferior. Race can not. That is just wrong. For example, in a generic Islamic culture the belief system itself will be homophobic regardless of what individuals who identify themselves with it believe. That´s utterly wrong. As every religion, Islam needs to be interpreted in a fashion, that suits you. And this interpretation makes the culture sexist/homophobic or not. You could argue in the same fashion, that Christianity is sexist and homophobic. You just said exactly what I said. Why is monogamy and sexual equality objectively superior? In other species, male and female are almost never equal. Why is pro gay rights objectively better than homophobia? Because it's aligned with humanitarian beliefs? Or is it aligned with the specific cultural hegemony you were raised in? I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it. It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad. Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit. If the strongest men were alowd to breed with as many females as they possibly could, without disgression and those women soley focused on the survival of those children, some may argue that would bring about stronger subsequent generations. Gay people = no progeny, no continuation of their gene pool. Obviously I agree with you in that I'd want to grow up in a culture that touts equality, but I still have a hard time judging Western culture as "objectively" superior. So polygamy/monogamy are fine according to that (I find them to be)? Gay is also fine since those with a genetic/cultural/whatever make-up for no relationship with the opposite gender will die out. Leaving only bi/opposite sex attraction. Sounds fine to me. If gay isn't part of any of those then it will stay in, which also seems fine? Edit, the only problem I see with your argument is that you assume that strong females won't attract multiple males.
Strong females would attract multiple males, but only the strongest of those males would be able to claim her. As you know, once a human is pregnant, they cannot get pregnant a second time until the pregnancy is finished. Thus ensuring that the strongest male and strongest females are paired.
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Well, if you say that a culture is superior to another culture, you need to define superiority.
For example, are human beings superior to viruses? what about AIDS?
There're many different ways to define "superiority".
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On August 13 2012 03:25 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:15 Xiron wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it.
It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad.
Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit.
One can argue that gay is bad because if everyone was gay, our species would go extinct. That is a rational argument. Opposing to that is the fact that this is never ever going to be the case, so gays don't matter in the reproduction part of our species. You just refuted your own argument and therefore it's not a valid rational argument. One could even further refute it by postulating that even if the entire human population was gay, we could still make babies. I can certainly see such a society function without any problems. Show nested quote +
It wasn´t only about race, it was about culture as well. Culture can not be inferior, as culture is, as you mentioned a sum of beliefs, values and norms. Yet you will be hard pressed to identify this culture, where a sexist or homophobic notion is shared unanimously. And even if appears to you this way, you wont be able to judge it as you can´t claim to know said culture close enough, if you don´t share it
I didnt say what you said: the point is, there is no such thing as a generic islamic culture. Furthermore i didnt raise the term "arabic culture", i merely referred to it. You cannot divide cultural complexes into segments in order to label one of them as inferior. Liberal arabic movements view themselves as part of that certain culture, that is meant to be labeled as inferior throughout this discussion.
I think you are right. What I mean by "inferior culture" are specific people with an inferior set of beliefs. Indeed not every person who generally identifies himself with culture X also shares the exact copy of that culture's set of values. Show nested quote +
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. Show nested quote +PS: German Shepherd or Poodle, do you think they one of them can be objectively inferior or not? I'll help you out, the correct answer is: "For what?" - it's exactly the same with human race, religion or culture. Each one has flaws, each one has merits. You're proclaiming that your culture in it's entirety is superior to another one and therefor has a god-given right to call out the other culture. I think that's pretty disgusting. I'm certainly not calling an entire culture inferior. Culture X simply has more negative traits than culture Y and therefore culture X is inferior to culture Y.
Your definition of negative and positive traits is undeniably influenced by whichever cultural hegemony you prescribe to. This argument is getting you no where.
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On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small.
Race is very much related to the set of values and behaviour someone has. If - for whatever reasons - black people in the US commit more crimes than white people and if - for whatever reasons - police officers tend to shoot black suspects more often than white ones do you really believe that that doesn't affect the values and behaviours of black people? Sure, the color of your skin or your race being irrelevant sounds cool and all but it's far from reality. Everyone gets judged by their appearence, everyone gets feedback on their appearence. That feedback forms values.
Besides that: What about religion? Judging from your argument that anyone with a "bad" culture can just change it if he wants to anyone with a "bad religion" has to be able to do the same, correct? How come a religion can't be "objectively superior" or inferior to another one? After all it's just a chosen set of values and behaviours.
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On August 13 2012 03:32 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:25 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 03:15 Xiron wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it.
It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad.
Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit.
One can argue that gay is bad because if everyone was gay, our species would go extinct. That is a rational argument. Opposing to that is the fact that this is never ever going to be the case, so gays don't matter in the reproduction part of our species. You just refuted your own argument and therefore it's not a valid rational argument. One could even further refute it by postulating that even if the entire human population was gay, we could still make babies. I can certainly see such a society function without any problems.
It wasn´t only about race, it was about culture as well. Culture can not be inferior, as culture is, as you mentioned a sum of beliefs, values and norms. Yet you will be hard pressed to identify this culture, where a sexist or homophobic notion is shared unanimously. And even if appears to you this way, you wont be able to judge it as you can´t claim to know said culture close enough, if you don´t share it
I didnt say what you said: the point is, there is no such thing as a generic islamic culture. Furthermore i didnt raise the term "arabic culture", i merely referred to it. You cannot divide cultural complexes into segments in order to label one of them as inferior. Liberal arabic movements view themselves as part of that certain culture, that is meant to be labeled as inferior throughout this discussion.
I think you are right. What I mean by "inferior culture" are specific people with an inferior set of beliefs. Indeed not every person who generally identifies himself with culture X also shares the exact copy of that culture's set of values.
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. PS: German Shepherd or Poodle, do you think they one of them can be objectively inferior or not? I'll help you out, the correct answer is: "For what?" - it's exactly the same with human race, religion or culture. Each one has flaws, each one has merits. You're proclaiming that your culture in it's entirety is superior to another one and therefor has a god-given right to call out the other culture. I think that's pretty disgusting. I'm certainly not calling an entire culture inferior. Culture X simply has more negative traits than culture Y and therefore culture X is inferior to culture Y. Your definition of negative and positive traits is undeniably influenced by whichever cultural hegemony you prescribe to. This argument is getting you no where. No, it is simply based on "Is there a rational reason for this?" and "Does this culture's set of values and beliefs harm others?".
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On August 13 2012 03:25 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:15 Xiron wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it.
It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad.
Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit.
One can argue that gay is bad because if everyone was gay, our species would go extinct. That is a rational argument. Opposing to that is the fact that this is never ever going to be the case, so gays don't matter in the reproduction part of our species. You just refuted your own argument and therefore it's not a valid rational argument. One could even further refute it by postulating that even if the entire human population was gay, we could still make babies. I can certainly see such a society function without any problems. Show nested quote +
It wasn´t only about race, it was about culture as well. Culture can not be inferior, as culture is, as you mentioned a sum of beliefs, values and norms. Yet you will be hard pressed to identify this culture, where a sexist or homophobic notion is shared unanimously. And even if appears to you this way, you wont be able to judge it as you can´t claim to know said culture close enough, if you don´t share it
I didnt say what you said: the point is, there is no such thing as a generic islamic culture. Furthermore i didnt raise the term "arabic culture", i merely referred to it. You cannot divide cultural complexes into segments in order to label one of them as inferior. Liberal arabic movements view themselves as part of that certain culture, that is meant to be labeled as inferior throughout this discussion.
I think you are right. What I mean by "inferior culture" are specific people with an inferior set of beliefs. Indeed not every person who generally identifies himself with culture X also shares the exact copy of that culture's set of values. Show nested quote +
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. Show nested quote +PS: German Shepherd or Poodle, do you think they one of them can be objectively inferior or not? I'll help you out, the correct answer is: "For what?" - it's exactly the same with human race, religion or culture. Each one has flaws, each one has merits. You're proclaiming that your culture in it's entirety is superior to another one and therefor has a god-given right to call out the other culture. I think that's pretty disgusting. I'm certainly not calling the entire culture inferior. Culture X simply has more negative traits than culture Y and therefore culture X is inferior to culture Y.
Cultural superiority or inferiority is undefinable as such. Cultures are meant to exchange and develop by doing so The so praised western culture wouldn´t even know the word "democracy" without arabic translations of greek texts in the period of 1100-1300.
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On August 13 2012 03:34 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. Race is very much related to the set of values and behaviour someone has. If - for whatever reasons - black people in the US commit more crimes than white people and if - for whatever reasons - police officers tend to shoot black suspects more often than white ones do you really believe that that doesn't affect the values and behaviours of black people? Sure, the color of your skin or your race being irrelevant sounds cool and all but it's far from reality. Everyone gets judged by their appearence, everyone gets feedback on their appearence. That feedback forms values. You know why? That's because of people like you, who believe there are genuine differences between races other than appearance. Race and culture certainly are connected to each other but they are not inseperable. Absolutely not. It also has to do with the socioeconomic status of someone. People of certain races might be more likely to grow up in a poor ghetto environment.
Besides that: What about religion? Judging from your argument that anyone with a "bad" culture can just change it if he wants to anyone with a "bad religion" has to be able to do the same, correct? How come a religion can't be "objectively superior" or inferior to another one? After all it's just a chosen set of values and behaviours. Oh, religions certainly can be inferior to others.
We have two religions, religion X and religion Y. Religion Y is exactly the same as religion X but also believes that diseases are caused by babies and therefore kills a baby each time someone gets sick. Religion Y is now objectively inferior to religion X (diseases aren't caused by babies).
Cultural superiority or inferiority is undefinable as such. Cultures are meant to exchange and develop by doing so The so praised western culture wouldn´t even know the word "democracy" without arabic translations of greek texts in the period of 1100-1300.
You're absolutely right. However, I am a firm believer that certain cultures simply do not mix with others. That's what my entire argument (should) boil down to.
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On August 13 2012 03:34 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:32 SupLilSon wrote:On August 13 2012 03:25 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 03:15 Xiron wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it.
It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad.
Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit.
One can argue that gay is bad because if everyone was gay, our species would go extinct. That is a rational argument. Opposing to that is the fact that this is never ever going to be the case, so gays don't matter in the reproduction part of our species. You just refuted your own argument and therefore it's not a valid rational argument. One could even further refute it by postulating that even if the entire human population was gay, we could still make babies. I can certainly see such a society function without any problems.
It wasn´t only about race, it was about culture as well. Culture can not be inferior, as culture is, as you mentioned a sum of beliefs, values and norms. Yet you will be hard pressed to identify this culture, where a sexist or homophobic notion is shared unanimously. And even if appears to you this way, you wont be able to judge it as you can´t claim to know said culture close enough, if you don´t share it
I didnt say what you said: the point is, there is no such thing as a generic islamic culture. Furthermore i didnt raise the term "arabic culture", i merely referred to it. You cannot divide cultural complexes into segments in order to label one of them as inferior. Liberal arabic movements view themselves as part of that certain culture, that is meant to be labeled as inferior throughout this discussion.
I think you are right. What I mean by "inferior culture" are specific people with an inferior set of beliefs. Indeed not every person who generally identifies himself with culture X also shares the exact copy of that culture's set of values.
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. PS: German Shepherd or Poodle, do you think they one of them can be objectively inferior or not? I'll help you out, the correct answer is: "For what?" - it's exactly the same with human race, religion or culture. Each one has flaws, each one has merits. You're proclaiming that your culture in it's entirety is superior to another one and therefor has a god-given right to call out the other culture. I think that's pretty disgusting. I'm certainly not calling an entire culture inferior. Culture X simply has more negative traits than culture Y and therefore culture X is inferior to culture Y. Your definition of negative and positive traits is undeniably influenced by whichever cultural hegemony you prescribe to. This argument is getting you no where. No, it is simply based on "Is there a rational reason for this?" and "Does this culture's set of values and beliefs harm others?".
Your value of rationalism came from somewhere. If you truely think you are objective, you're wrong.
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On August 13 2012 03:38 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:34 r.Evo wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. Race is very much related to the set of values and behaviour someone has. If - for whatever reasons - black people in the US commit more crimes than white people and if - for whatever reasons - police officers tend to shoot black suspects more often than white ones do you really believe that that doesn't affect the values and behaviours of black people? Sure, the color of your skin or your race being irrelevant sounds cool and all but it's far from reality. Everyone gets judged by their appearence, everyone gets feedback on their appearence. That feedback forms values. You know why? That's because of people like you, who believe there are genuine differences between races other than appearance. Race and culture certainly are connected to each other but they are not inseperable. Absolutely not. Show nested quote +Besides that: What about religion? Judging from your argument that anyone with a "bad" culture can just change it if he wants to anyone with a "bad religion" has to be able to do the same, correct? How come a religion can't be "objectively superior" or inferior to another one? After all it's just a chosen set of values and behaviours. Oh, religions certainly can be inferior to others. We have two religions, religion X and religion Y. Religion Y is exactly the same as religion X but also believes that diseases are caused by babies and therefore kills a baby each time someone gets sick. Religion Y is now objectively inferior to religion X (diseases aren't caused by babies). Show nested quote +
Cultural superiority or inferiority is undefinable as such. Cultures are meant to exchange and develop by doing so The so praised western culture wouldn´t even know the word "democracy" without arabic translations of greek texts in the period of 1100-1300.
You're absolutely right. However, I am a firm believer that certain cultures simply do not mix with others.
There are none, i can give the answer in advance, or could you name any?
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On August 13 2012 03:40 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:38 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 03:34 r.Evo wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. Race is very much related to the set of values and behaviour someone has. If - for whatever reasons - black people in the US commit more crimes than white people and if - for whatever reasons - police officers tend to shoot black suspects more often than white ones do you really believe that that doesn't affect the values and behaviours of black people? Sure, the color of your skin or your race being irrelevant sounds cool and all but it's far from reality. Everyone gets judged by their appearence, everyone gets feedback on their appearence. That feedback forms values. You know why? That's because of people like you, who believe there are genuine differences between races other than appearance. Race and culture certainly are connected to each other but they are not inseperable. Absolutely not. Besides that: What about religion? Judging from your argument that anyone with a "bad" culture can just change it if he wants to anyone with a "bad religion" has to be able to do the same, correct? How come a religion can't be "objectively superior" or inferior to another one? After all it's just a chosen set of values and behaviours. Oh, religions certainly can be inferior to others. We have two religions, religion X and religion Y. Religion Y is exactly the same as religion X but also believes that diseases are caused by babies and therefore kills a baby each time someone gets sick. Religion Y is now objectively inferior to religion X (diseases aren't caused by babies).
Cultural superiority or inferiority is undefinable as such. Cultures are meant to exchange and develop by doing so The so praised western culture wouldn´t even know the word "democracy" without arabic translations of greek texts in the period of 1100-1300.
You're absolutely right. However, I am a firm believer that certain cultures simply do not mix with others. There are none, i can give the answer in advance, or could you name any? Orthodox religious cultures for example.
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On August 13 2012 03:34 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:32 SupLilSon wrote:On August 13 2012 03:25 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 03:15 Xiron wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it.
It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad.
Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit.
One can argue that gay is bad because if everyone was gay, our species would go extinct. That is a rational argument. Opposing to that is the fact that this is never ever going to be the case, so gays don't matter in the reproduction part of our species. You just refuted your own argument and therefore it's not a valid rational argument. One could even further refute it by postulating that even if the entire human population was gay, we could still make babies. I can certainly see such a society function without any problems.
It wasn´t only about race, it was about culture as well. Culture can not be inferior, as culture is, as you mentioned a sum of beliefs, values and norms. Yet you will be hard pressed to identify this culture, where a sexist or homophobic notion is shared unanimously. And even if appears to you this way, you wont be able to judge it as you can´t claim to know said culture close enough, if you don´t share it
I didnt say what you said: the point is, there is no such thing as a generic islamic culture. Furthermore i didnt raise the term "arabic culture", i merely referred to it. You cannot divide cultural complexes into segments in order to label one of them as inferior. Liberal arabic movements view themselves as part of that certain culture, that is meant to be labeled as inferior throughout this discussion.
I think you are right. What I mean by "inferior culture" are specific people with an inferior set of beliefs. Indeed not every person who generally identifies himself with culture X also shares the exact copy of that culture's set of values.
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. PS: German Shepherd or Poodle, do you think they one of them can be objectively inferior or not? I'll help you out, the correct answer is: "For what?" - it's exactly the same with human race, religion or culture. Each one has flaws, each one has merits. You're proclaiming that your culture in it's entirety is superior to another one and therefor has a god-given right to call out the other culture. I think that's pretty disgusting. I'm certainly not calling an entire culture inferior. Culture X simply has more negative traits than culture Y and therefore culture X is inferior to culture Y. Your definition of negative and positive traits is undeniably influenced by whichever cultural hegemony you prescribe to. This argument is getting you no where. No, it is simply based on "Is there a rational reason for this?" and "Does this culture's set of values and beliefs harm others?".
You're putting words in my mouth. I have no desire to harm anyone.
You're being a hypocrit, that's all.
If I go out there and proclaim: "Christianity is superior to Islam from a rational point of view." I'm begging for violence and escalation. Instead of actually proclaiming my desire to not harm anyone by not going into that debate at all I proclaim my own thing superior. That's asking for a fight with anyone I just called inferior.
Try this for an example: Go out on the streets, pick a random guy that looks as if he won't take an insult likely and tell him "From a rational point of view I'm superior to you, my set of values and believes is vastly superior to yours!" - do you really believe that said person will say "Oh, yeah, you're probably right, I'll adapt your set of values thanks for the tip, bro!"?
You're being the guy who's spewing in someones face "LOL YOU SUCK", gets smacked in the face for it with the plan to tell anyone "Hey, I had no desire to harm anyone, he just suddenly smacked me in the face!" afterwards, proclaiming your innocence.
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On August 13 2012 03:42 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:40 Cele wrote:On August 13 2012 03:38 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 03:34 r.Evo wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. Race is very much related to the set of values and behaviour someone has. If - for whatever reasons - black people in the US commit more crimes than white people and if - for whatever reasons - police officers tend to shoot black suspects more often than white ones do you really believe that that doesn't affect the values and behaviours of black people? Sure, the color of your skin or your race being irrelevant sounds cool and all but it's far from reality. Everyone gets judged by their appearence, everyone gets feedback on their appearence. That feedback forms values. You know why? That's because of people like you, who believe there are genuine differences between races other than appearance. Race and culture certainly are connected to each other but they are not inseperable. Absolutely not. Besides that: What about religion? Judging from your argument that anyone with a "bad" culture can just change it if he wants to anyone with a "bad religion" has to be able to do the same, correct? How come a religion can't be "objectively superior" or inferior to another one? After all it's just a chosen set of values and behaviours. Oh, religions certainly can be inferior to others. We have two religions, religion X and religion Y. Religion Y is exactly the same as religion X but also believes that diseases are caused by babies and therefore kills a baby each time someone gets sick. Religion Y is now objectively inferior to religion X (diseases aren't caused by babies).
Cultural superiority or inferiority is undefinable as such. Cultures are meant to exchange and develop by doing so The so praised western culture wouldn´t even know the word "democracy" without arabic translations of greek texts in the period of 1100-1300.
You're absolutely right. However, I am a firm believer that certain cultures simply do not mix with others. There are none, i can give the answer in advance, or could you name any? Orthodox religious cultures for example.
That´s more of a catch-all phrase, then a specific culture. I doubt you could name any.
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On August 13 2012 03:38 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:34 r.Evo wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. Race is very much related to the set of values and behaviour someone has. If - for whatever reasons - black people in the US commit more crimes than white people and if - for whatever reasons - police officers tend to shoot black suspects more often than white ones do you really believe that that doesn't affect the values and behaviours of black people? Sure, the color of your skin or your race being irrelevant sounds cool and all but it's far from reality. Everyone gets judged by their appearence, everyone gets feedback on their appearence. That feedback forms values. You know why? That's because of people like you, who believe there are genuine differences between races other than appearance. Race and culture certainly are connected to each other but they are not inseperable. Absolutely not. It also has to do with the socioeconomic status of someone. People of certain races might be more likely to grow up in a poor ghetto environment. Show nested quote +Besides that: What about religion? Judging from your argument that anyone with a "bad" culture can just change it if he wants to anyone with a "bad religion" has to be able to do the same, correct? How come a religion can't be "objectively superior" or inferior to another one? After all it's just a chosen set of values and behaviours. Oh, religions certainly can be inferior to others. We have two religions, religion X and religion Y. Religion Y is exactly the same as religion X but also believes that diseases are caused by babies and therefore kills a baby each time someone gets sick. Religion Y is now objectively inferior to religion X (diseases aren't caused by babies).
Allright. If religions can be inferior to others please tell me which of those three is "objectively inferior" to the others and why: Christianity, Islam, Judaism.
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On August 13 2012 03:46 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:38 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 03:34 r.Evo wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. Race is very much related to the set of values and behaviour someone has. If - for whatever reasons - black people in the US commit more crimes than white people and if - for whatever reasons - police officers tend to shoot black suspects more often than white ones do you really believe that that doesn't affect the values and behaviours of black people? Sure, the color of your skin or your race being irrelevant sounds cool and all but it's far from reality. Everyone gets judged by their appearence, everyone gets feedback on their appearence. That feedback forms values. You know why? That's because of people like you, who believe there are genuine differences between races other than appearance. Race and culture certainly are connected to each other but they are not inseperable. Absolutely not. It also has to do with the socioeconomic status of someone. People of certain races might be more likely to grow up in a poor ghetto environment. Besides that: What about religion? Judging from your argument that anyone with a "bad" culture can just change it if he wants to anyone with a "bad religion" has to be able to do the same, correct? How come a religion can't be "objectively superior" or inferior to another one? After all it's just a chosen set of values and behaviours. Oh, religions certainly can be inferior to others. We have two religions, religion X and religion Y. Religion Y is exactly the same as religion X but also believes that diseases are caused by babies and therefore kills a baby each time someone gets sick. Religion Y is now objectively inferior to religion X (diseases aren't caused by babies). Allright. If religions can be inferior to others please tell me which of those three is "objectively inferior" to the others and why: Christianity, Islam, Judaism.
Who has the best K/D Ratio? XD
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On August 13 2012 03:38 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:34 r.Evo wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. Race is very much related to the set of values and behaviour someone has. If - for whatever reasons - black people in the US commit more crimes than white people and if - for whatever reasons - police officers tend to shoot black suspects more often than white ones do you really believe that that doesn't affect the values and behaviours of black people? Sure, the color of your skin or your race being irrelevant sounds cool and all but it's far from reality. Everyone gets judged by their appearence, everyone gets feedback on their appearence. That feedback forms values. You know why? That's because of people like you, who believe there are genuine differences between races other than appearance. Race and culture certainly are connected to each other but they are not inseperable. Absolutely not. It also has to do with the socioeconomic status of someone. People of certain races might be more likely to grow up in a poor ghetto environment.
There are differences between races beyond looks. Any googling will show you multiple studies done on the subject. Especially long distance running and that small area in Kenya. For example http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p2.php http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_sports#Explanations_for_participation_and_performance_disparities . They aren't very big though and can in most situations be ignored, yet at an elite level it does matter.
If you consider that to be something else than race, then fine. This is a bit of topic due to the discussion of race and not culture.
edit, fixed quote, I think.
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On August 13 2012 03:24 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:03 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here. That was about race. Cultures can be objectively inferior. Race can not. Do you even understand what you're spewing out here? That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far. The biggest wars in history started by people calling others inferior. Be it race, religion or culture. You're pretty much one step away from calling for a holy war on those stupid infidels with the inferior culture. PS: German Shepherd or Poodle, do you think they one of them can be objectively inferior or not? I'll help you out, the correct answer is: "For what?" - it's exactly the same with human race, religion or culture. Each one has flaws, each one has merits. You're proclaiming that your culture in it's entirety is superior to another one and therefor has a god-given right to call out the other culture. I think that's pretty disgusting.
As a note, religion is NOT responsible for the vast majority of wars. Just a point of fact, i agree with your post
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On August 13 2012 03:46 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:38 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 03:34 r.Evo wrote:On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
That's hypocrisy at it's finest. Please explain to me why a culture can be "objectively inferior" but at the same time it's impossible for you that races are "objectively inferior"? I'm pretty damn sure the only reason you can come up with is because the word "racism" has a bad ring to it while "culturalism" sounds pretty neat so far.
Race does not determine the set of values and behaviour someone has. Furthermore, the difference in races beside appearances are extremely small. Race is very much related to the set of values and behaviour someone has. If - for whatever reasons - black people in the US commit more crimes than white people and if - for whatever reasons - police officers tend to shoot black suspects more often than white ones do you really believe that that doesn't affect the values and behaviours of black people? Sure, the color of your skin or your race being irrelevant sounds cool and all but it's far from reality. Everyone gets judged by their appearence, everyone gets feedback on their appearence. That feedback forms values. You know why? That's because of people like you, who believe there are genuine differences between races other than appearance. Race and culture certainly are connected to each other but they are not inseperable. Absolutely not. It also has to do with the socioeconomic status of someone. People of certain races might be more likely to grow up in a poor ghetto environment. Besides that: What about religion? Judging from your argument that anyone with a "bad" culture can just change it if he wants to anyone with a "bad religion" has to be able to do the same, correct? How come a religion can't be "objectively superior" or inferior to another one? After all it's just a chosen set of values and behaviours. Oh, religions certainly can be inferior to others. We have two religions, religion X and religion Y. Religion Y is exactly the same as religion X but also believes that diseases are caused by babies and therefore kills a baby each time someone gets sick. Religion Y is now objectively inferior to religion X (diseases aren't caused by babies). Allright. If religions can be inferior to others please tell me which of those three is "objectively inferior" to the others and why: Christianity, Islam, Judaism.
In theory
Christianity > Islam > Judaism.
In Practice
Judaism > Christianity > Islam.
Still, it is a bit of a silly question considering each has a dozen denominations, each of which are radically different.
Extremist Christians for example, the kind that bomb abortion clinics, are a great deal worse than Suffi muslims that are generally pretty liberal and easy-going.
Suffi Islam also being one of the rare things where Sunni/Shia agree that they need to burn in hell.
Considering some of these strains of religion are distinctly counter-productive to the achievement of anything, be it hapiness or technological progress, they can be considered objectively worse than others.
Still, there aren't really a lot of places that can be considered culturally-religious. Even a nation like Israel or Saudi-Arabia is dictated largely by local culture, not Islam. There is no call for the covering of faces in Islam. You will hardly find any face-covering in Iran, whilst in Saudi-Arabia it is the norm.
Afghanistan culture is dictated, for the most part, by Pasthun culture, which has swallowed up Islam to give itself divine authority, but for the most part is entirely cultural.
Religion has influences on the culture, but shouldn't be confused as being the culture. The way it influences the local culture can vary, but the doctrines are generally the same, and with it the negative influence.
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EPT
