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Well i never said that immigration between similar cultures was bad , but the thing is Europe will struggle to sustain just the people living there now because it is tapped out resource wise.I know that in the UK coal production peaked around 100 years ago , back in 1913.North sea oil and gas production peaked around 10 years ago , UK just announced it's worst monthly trade deficit on record last month a large part of it due to declining resource take in the north sea , the UK is now a net importer of oil and gas.
If you recall one of the main reasons the Romans invaded Britain was for it's vast resource of tin.Of course this was 2000 year ago and it's all gone now.So you've got a country with no resources left , barely any manufacturing left (Rolls Royce opened a brand new aircraft engine plant in Singapore last year by the way) and a financial sector that caused the GFC.
Of course the UK has a mild climate good for agriculture.Still , only 60% of food eaten in the UK was domestic , 40% was imported.Point is the UK has 60 million people living there but enough resources for 10 to 20 million living a lower standard of living.I make the same conclusion for the rest of Europe , no more immigration needed.
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On August 12 2012 06:42 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 06:23 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 06:19 sam!zdat wrote:On August 12 2012 06:15 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 06:00 r.Evo wrote:On August 12 2012 05:42 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 05:22 Thorakh wrote:In other words, too few tolerance is nefast, but tolerating everything is equally harmful in the long run. No it isn't. What is harmful however, is your view on this matter. Homosexuals don't harm anyone and therefore homosexuality cannot be wrong. There is not a single rational argument against homosexuality, women voting and working, women dressing up a certain way, etc. If something doesn't harm, it, by definition, cannot be wrong. Plus, I never even said everything should be tolerated. Everything which does not harm should be tolerated. So that's your apathetic doxa. "If something doesn't harm, it, by definition, cannot be wrong." In my last post, I mentionned too much tolerance could be "more harmful on the long term". What you call "non-violent" stuff can be potentially more harmful on the long term than violent stuffs. A kid not being kissed by his mother or being raised by 2 homosexuals is far more violent and detrimental for his later psychological life than a couple of slaps in the face. Words as well can be far more abusive than a simple punch in the face. Indirect violence is currently the dominating form of violence in our society. And it's still violence. If I look at my local area (about 700k people total, not too dense, immigrants are mostly turkish and russian people in well... mostly their own areas) I actually think that the whole "we shoud all be tolerant"-ordeal makes the situation worse. Being "tolerant" is equal to "well, they're around, I don't like it, but what can I do?" around here. When you ask the same "tolerant" people if they ever bought at a turkish supermarket you get "Why would I buy there?" as an answer. It kind of has become a politically correct form of racism/anti-multiculturalism to say "Oh, no, I tolerate those people". Acceptance would be a much cooler thing. Notice how extreme tolerance is only present in rich and individualistic societies. Whose wealth is supported by the exploitation of the immigrant groups one is supposed to "tolerate"... Funny how they make this "tolerance" seem like such a favor Yes, because these immigrants didn't immigrate here on their own free will... They were snatched up and dragged here to work our minimum wage jobs, because there weren't enough people to fill all the jobs. I'm first generation American and I don't feel exploited, neither do my parents. What is this myth of freedom? People are forced to do things by economic necessity. I don't know about you, but keep in mind that ideology has a powerful way of keeping people from realizing that they are being exploited. (edit: also, there's a good chance that your family might not be the sort of immigrant we are talking about. I doubt your parents came here as migrant workers) Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 06:34 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 06:19 sam!zdat wrote:On August 12 2012 06:15 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 06:00 r.Evo wrote:On August 12 2012 05:42 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 05:22 Thorakh wrote:In other words, too few tolerance is nefast, but tolerating everything is equally harmful in the long run. No it isn't. What is harmful however, is your view on this matter. Homosexuals don't harm anyone and therefore homosexuality cannot be wrong. There is not a single rational argument against homosexuality, women voting and working, women dressing up a certain way, etc. If something doesn't harm, it, by definition, cannot be wrong. Plus, I never even said everything should be tolerated. Everything which does not harm should be tolerated. So that's your apathetic doxa. "If something doesn't harm, it, by definition, cannot be wrong." In my last post, I mentionned too much tolerance could be "more harmful on the long term". What you call "non-violent" stuff can be potentially more harmful on the long term than violent stuffs. A kid not being kissed by his mother or being raised by 2 homosexuals is far more violent and detrimental for his later psychological life than a couple of slaps in the face. Words as well can be far more abusive than a simple punch in the face. Indirect violence is currently the dominating form of violence in our society. And it's still violence. If I look at my local area (about 700k people total, not too dense, immigrants are mostly turkish and russian people in well... mostly their own areas) I actually think that the whole "we shoud all be tolerant"-ordeal makes the situation worse. Being "tolerant" is equal to "well, they're around, I don't like it, but what can I do?" around here. When you ask the same "tolerant" people if they ever bought at a turkish supermarket you get "Why would I buy there?" as an answer. It kind of has become a politically correct form of racism/anti-multiculturalism to say "Oh, no, I tolerate those people". Acceptance would be a much cooler thing. Notice how extreme tolerance is only present in rich and individualistic societies. Whose wealth is supported by the exploitation of the immigrant groups one is supposed to "tolerate"... Funny how they make this "tolerance" seem like such a favor The idea that Western nations acquired their wealth through colonization and now immigration is a lie which has been debunked several times. French colonization costed more than it brought us. What is this absurdity? Maybe that's true for France... You think Britain didn't get rich off its colonies? inevi Show nested quote +
Immigration is entirely debatable, lots of reports contradict each other.
Besides, you must be aware that the natives who live in the same area than the immigrants are usually not the one exploiting them.
These people wouldn't get a single penny out of the situation, but they will suffer from all the negative aspects of it.
It depends on which natives. Local labor loses, capital (which is, increasingly, never local) gains. In my country at least, anti-immigration is just a sham for the right to hoodwink its base (which is threatened by it). You think we would have illegal immigrants if capital wasn't dying to hire them?
Since you felt justified in making large assumptions about me based on limited information, I'll do the same for you. I'm gonna assume you've lived in the US for your whole life. I'm going to assume you've barely experienced the outside world and have no idea what the cultural climate in other countries is like. I'm going to assume that Colbert and Jon Stewert constitute roughly 75% of your current news intake. You sound like some high school kid who just learned about the industrial revolution and now thinks everything works on exploitation. Yea, those Mexican Immigrants who do landscaping everywhere? News flash, they came here so their kids could get an American education and grow up without drug wars in their streets. They came here because even a minimum wage job can bring in more money for their family back in Mexico than a job there can. My dad's half of my family fled to America to escape religious persecution and inevitable death in Europe, while my mom came here because in Malaysia women had about as much chance of a meaningful education as dirt. They came here from poverty and worked their asses off and now I get have the luxury of bitching at you on TL because of that. If you really think the US runs on exploitation of it's lower class you need to wake up and take a look at some of the rest of the world.
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On August 13 2012 00:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Well i never said that immigration between similar cultures was bad , but the thing is Europe will struggle to sustain just the people living there now because it is tapped out resource wise.I know that in the UK coal production peaked around 100 years ago , back in 1913.North sea oil and gas production peaked around 10 years ago , UK just announced it's worst monthly trade deficit on record last month a large part of it due to declining resource take in the north sea , the UK is now a net importer of oil and gas.
If you recall one of the main reasons the Romans invaded Britain was for it's vast resource of tin.Of course this was 2000 year ago and it's all gone now.So you've got a country with no resources left , barely any manufacturing left (Rolls Royce opened a brand new aircraft engine plant in Singapore last year by the way) and a financial sector that caused the GFC.
Of course the UK has a mild climate good for agriculture.Still , only 60% of food eaten in the UK was domestic , 40% was imported.Point is the UK has 60 million people living there but enough resources for 10 to 20 million living a lower standard of living.I make the same conclusion for the rest of Europe , no more immigration needed.
Isn't the problem that getting these ressources from China/Asia/Africa/Wherever is just WAY cheaper?
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On August 12 2012 03:04 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". That is just wrong. For example, in a generic Islamic culture the belief system itself will be homophobic regardless of what individuals who identify themselves with it believe.
That´s utterly wrong. As every religion, Islam needs to be interpreted in a fashion, that suits you. And this interpretation makes the culture sexist/homophobic or not. You could argue in the same fashion, that Christianity is sexist and homophobic.
On August 12 2012 02:58 McBengt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Where would you rather live as a muslim: in Saudi Arabia or Wisconsin, where this guy shot sikhs, mistaking them for muslims? And does this mean every US Citizen hates muslims? It doesnt. And the same is true for you roleplay.
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On August 13 2012 01:27 SupLilSon wrote:
Since you felt justified in making large assumptions about me based on limited information, I'll do the same for you. I'm gonna assume you've lived in the US for your whole life. I'm going to assume you've barely experienced the outside world and have no idea what the cultural climate in other countries is like. I'm going to assume that Colbert and Jon Stewert constitute roughly 75% of your current news intake. You sound like some high school kid who just learned about the industrial revolution and now thinks everything works on exploitation. Yea, those Mexican Immigrants who do landscaping everywhere? News flash, they came here so their kids could get an American education and grow up without drug wars in their streets. They came here because even a minimum wage job can bring in more money for their family back in Mexico than a job there can. My dad's half of my family fled to America to escape religious persecution and inevitable death in Europe, while my mom came here because in Malaysia women had about as much chance of a meaningful education as dirt. They came here from poverty and worked their asses off and now I get have the luxury of bitching at you on TL because of that. If you really think the US runs on exploitation of it's lower class you need to wake up and take a look at some of the rest of the world.
But how can the US provide such good opportunities, such quality of life?
For someone to win something in a short period of time, someone else has to lose it.
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On August 13 2012 02:06 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 01:27 SupLilSon wrote:
Since you felt justified in making large assumptions about me based on limited information, I'll do the same for you. I'm gonna assume you've lived in the US for your whole life. I'm going to assume you've barely experienced the outside world and have no idea what the cultural climate in other countries is like. I'm going to assume that Colbert and Jon Stewert constitute roughly 75% of your current news intake. You sound like some high school kid who just learned about the industrial revolution and now thinks everything works on exploitation. Yea, those Mexican Immigrants who do landscaping everywhere? News flash, they came here so their kids could get an American education and grow up without drug wars in their streets. They came here because even a minimum wage job can bring in more money for their family back in Mexico than a job there can. My dad's half of my family fled to America to escape religious persecution and inevitable death in Europe, while my mom came here because in Malaysia women had about as much chance of a meaningful education as dirt. They came here from poverty and worked their asses off and now I get have the luxury of bitching at you on TL because of that. If you really think the US runs on exploitation of it's lower class you need to wake up and take a look at some of the rest of the world. But how can the US provide such good opportunities, such quality of life? For someone to win something in a short period of time, someone else has to lose it.
Wow, is this how people actually think economics works?
News flash, economics is not a zero-sum game. Especially when you have the infrastructure that's in America.
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On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways.
Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here.
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On August 13 2012 02:06 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 01:27 SupLilSon wrote:
Since you felt justified in making large assumptions about me based on limited information, I'll do the same for you. I'm gonna assume you've lived in the US for your whole life. I'm going to assume you've barely experienced the outside world and have no idea what the cultural climate in other countries is like. I'm going to assume that Colbert and Jon Stewert constitute roughly 75% of your current news intake. You sound like some high school kid who just learned about the industrial revolution and now thinks everything works on exploitation. Yea, those Mexican Immigrants who do landscaping everywhere? News flash, they came here so their kids could get an American education and grow up without drug wars in their streets. They came here because even a minimum wage job can bring in more money for their family back in Mexico than a job there can. My dad's half of my family fled to America to escape religious persecution and inevitable death in Europe, while my mom came here because in Malaysia women had about as much chance of a meaningful education as dirt. They came here from poverty and worked their asses off and now I get have the luxury of bitching at you on TL because of that. If you really think the US runs on exploitation of it's lower class you need to wake up and take a look at some of the rest of the world. But how can the US provide such good opportunities, such quality of life? For someone to win something in a short period of time, someone else has to lose it.
Life also have a ladder, the money ladder..
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On August 13 2012 02:06 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 01:27 SupLilSon wrote:
Since you felt justified in making large assumptions about me based on limited information, I'll do the same for you. I'm gonna assume you've lived in the US for your whole life. I'm going to assume you've barely experienced the outside world and have no idea what the cultural climate in other countries is like. I'm going to assume that Colbert and Jon Stewert constitute roughly 75% of your current news intake. You sound like some high school kid who just learned about the industrial revolution and now thinks everything works on exploitation. Yea, those Mexican Immigrants who do landscaping everywhere? News flash, they came here so their kids could get an American education and grow up without drug wars in their streets. They came here because even a minimum wage job can bring in more money for their family back in Mexico than a job there can. My dad's half of my family fled to America to escape religious persecution and inevitable death in Europe, while my mom came here because in Malaysia women had about as much chance of a meaningful education as dirt. They came here from poverty and worked their asses off and now I get have the luxury of bitching at you on TL because of that. If you really think the US runs on exploitation of it's lower class you need to wake up and take a look at some of the rest of the world. But how can the US provide such good opportunities, such quality of life? For someone to win something in a short period of time, someone else has to lose it.
Uh... no.
If you do productive labor, and get paid less than the added value from your labor, you are a useful contributor. Making value =/= taking value.
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On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here.
Ehhh... you have to think of it more of a human well-being standpoint. I mean a culture that, say, doesn't let women drive would be inferior to the same culture but allowing women to drive, right? Think of it more like objectivity of human rights.
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On August 13 2012 02:20 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here. Ehhh... you have to think of it more of a human well-being standpoint. I mean a culture that, say, doesn't let women drive would be inferior to the same culture but allowing women to drive, right? Think of it more like objectivity of human rights.
Well the point is, you can´t identify this to a whole culture. Of course there are those states in the arabic world, that have such laws. But it doesnt many the culture itself falls for the same faults as some people or even a government. There are liberal and modern movements in the arabic societies as well. Furthermore this kind of thinking dangerously leads to a feeling of superiority. And superiority can be used to legitimize the use of force.
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The big problem with multiculturalism is that is attempts to compromise between different views of reality through advocacy of everything. A big part of thinking you are right is knowing that others are wrong. The rampant indiscriminate advocacy of all values, regardless of their more objective value, gives people the small push they need to be uncompromising and thus divisive. True multiculturalism in my mind is the universal devaluation of cultural values in favor of personal values (which is actually what has/is happening in America).
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On August 13 2012 02:12 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:06 Kukaracha wrote:On August 13 2012 01:27 SupLilSon wrote:
Since you felt justified in making large assumptions about me based on limited information, I'll do the same for you. I'm gonna assume you've lived in the US for your whole life. I'm going to assume you've barely experienced the outside world and have no idea what the cultural climate in other countries is like. I'm going to assume that Colbert and Jon Stewert constitute roughly 75% of your current news intake. You sound like some high school kid who just learned about the industrial revolution and now thinks everything works on exploitation. Yea, those Mexican Immigrants who do landscaping everywhere? News flash, they came here so their kids could get an American education and grow up without drug wars in their streets. They came here because even a minimum wage job can bring in more money for their family back in Mexico than a job there can. My dad's half of my family fled to America to escape religious persecution and inevitable death in Europe, while my mom came here because in Malaysia women had about as much chance of a meaningful education as dirt. They came here from poverty and worked their asses off and now I get have the luxury of bitching at you on TL because of that. If you really think the US runs on exploitation of it's lower class you need to wake up and take a look at some of the rest of the world. But how can the US provide such good opportunities, such quality of life? For someone to win something in a short period of time, someone else has to lose it. Wow, is this how people actually think economics works? News flash, economics is not a zero-sum game. Especially when you have the infrastructure that's in America.
This is not a matter of economics, it's a matter of history.
America's rise was only made possible by the European downfall, american domination is enforced and secured by a strong military presence worldwide. If anything, the US is the country that uses the most force in its economical relations to other nations.
If you only consider the economical perspective, than you can't explain how the giant became so big.
On August 13 2012 02:18 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:06 Kukaracha wrote:On August 13 2012 01:27 SupLilSon wrote:
Since you felt justified in making large assumptions about me based on limited information, I'll do the same for you. I'm gonna assume you've lived in the US for your whole life. I'm going to assume you've barely experienced the outside world and have no idea what the cultural climate in other countries is like. I'm going to assume that Colbert and Jon Stewert constitute roughly 75% of your current news intake. You sound like some high school kid who just learned about the industrial revolution and now thinks everything works on exploitation. Yea, those Mexican Immigrants who do landscaping everywhere? News flash, they came here so their kids could get an American education and grow up without drug wars in their streets. They came here because even a minimum wage job can bring in more money for their family back in Mexico than a job there can. My dad's half of my family fled to America to escape religious persecution and inevitable death in Europe, while my mom came here because in Malaysia women had about as much chance of a meaningful education as dirt. They came here from poverty and worked their asses off and now I get have the luxury of bitching at you on TL because of that. If you really think the US runs on exploitation of it's lower class you need to wake up and take a look at some of the rest of the world. But how can the US provide such good opportunities, such quality of life? For someone to win something in a short period of time, someone else has to lose it. Uh... no. If you do productive labor, and get paid less than the added value from your labor, you are a useful contributor. Making value =/= taking value.
There is a world out there. See my post above.
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On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here. That was about race. Cultures can be objectively inferior. Race can not.
Show nested quote +That is just wrong. For example, in a generic Islamic culture the belief system itself will be homophobic regardless of what individuals who identify themselves with it believe. That´s utterly wrong. As every religion, Islam needs to be interpreted in a fashion, that suits you. And this interpretation makes the culture sexist/homophobic or not. You could argue in the same fashion, that Christianity is sexist and homophobic.
Well the point is, you can´t identify this to a whole culture. Of course there are those states in the arabic world, that have such laws. But it doesnt many the culture itself falls for the same faults as some people or even a government. There are liberal and modern movements in the arabic societies as well. Furthermore this kind of thinking dangerously leads to a feeling of superiority. And superiority can be used to legitimize the use of force. 'Arab' is not a culture. Those liberal and modern movements are a different culture. You need to distinguish between race/origin and culture (and culture being a shared system of values, beliefs and norms).
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On August 13 2012 03:03 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here. That was about race. Cultures can be objectively inferior. Race can not. Show nested quote +That is just wrong. For example, in a generic Islamic culture the belief system itself will be homophobic regardless of what individuals who identify themselves with it believe. That´s utterly wrong. As every religion, Islam needs to be interpreted in a fashion, that suits you. And this interpretation makes the culture sexist/homophobic or not. You could argue in the same fashion, that Christianity is sexist and homophobic. You just said exactly what I said.
Why is monogamy and sexual equality objectively superior? In other species, male and female are almost never equal. Why is pro gay rights objectively better than homophobia? Because it's aligned with humanitarian beliefs? Or is it aligned with the specific cultural hegemony you were raised in? '
'Arab' is not a culture. Those liberal and modern movements are a different culture. You need to distinguish between race/origin and culture (and culture being a shared system of values, beliefs and norms).
It is though. Most people are multicultural and don't even think about it. You are the product of many cultures and subcultures, depending on your generally unique set of life experiences. Trying to separate culture from any of the ways of grouping people is just silly. Culture is the direct product of those differences.
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On August 13 2012 03:07 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:03 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here. That was about race. Cultures can be objectively inferior. Race can not. That is just wrong. For example, in a generic Islamic culture the belief system itself will be homophobic regardless of what individuals who identify themselves with it believe. That´s utterly wrong. As every religion, Islam needs to be interpreted in a fashion, that suits you. And this interpretation makes the culture sexist/homophobic or not. You could argue in the same fashion, that Christianity is sexist and homophobic. You just said exactly what I said. Why is monogamy and sexual equality objectively superior? In other species, male and female are almost never equal. Why is pro gay rights objectively better than homophobia? Because it's aligned with humanitarian beliefs? Or is it aligned with the specific cultural hegemony you were raised in? I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it.
It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad.
Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit.
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On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:
I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it.
It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad.
Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit.
One can argue that gay is bad because if everyone was gay, our species would go extinct. That is a rational argument. Opposing to that is the fact that this is never ever going to be the case, so gays don't matter in the reproduction part of our species.
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On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:07 SupLilSon wrote:On August 13 2012 03:03 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here. That was about race. Cultures can be objectively inferior. Race can not. That is just wrong. For example, in a generic Islamic culture the belief system itself will be homophobic regardless of what individuals who identify themselves with it believe. That´s utterly wrong. As every religion, Islam needs to be interpreted in a fashion, that suits you. And this interpretation makes the culture sexist/homophobic or not. You could argue in the same fashion, that Christianity is sexist and homophobic. You just said exactly what I said. Why is monogamy and sexual equality objectively superior? In other species, male and female are almost never equal. Why is pro gay rights objectively better than homophobia? Because it's aligned with humanitarian beliefs? Or is it aligned with the specific cultural hegemony you were raised in? I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it. It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad. Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit.
If the strongest men were alowd to breed with as many females as they possibly could, without disgression and those women soley focused on the survival of those children, some may argue that would bring about stronger subsequent generations. Gay people = no progeny, no continuation of their gene pool.
Obviously I agree with you in that I'd want to grow up in a culture that touts equality, but I still have a hard time judging Western culture as "objectively" superior.
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On August 13 2012 03:03 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here. That was about race. Cultures can be objectively inferior. Race can not. Show nested quote +That is just wrong. For example, in a generic Islamic culture the belief system itself will be homophobic regardless of what individuals who identify themselves with it believe. That´s utterly wrong. As every religion, Islam needs to be interpreted in a fashion, that suits you. And this interpretation makes the culture sexist/homophobic or not. You could argue in the same fashion, that Christianity is sexist and homophobic. You just said exactly what I said. Show nested quote +Well the point is, you can´t identify this to a whole culture. Of course there are those states in the arabic world, that have such laws. But it doesnt many the culture itself falls for the same faults as some people or even a government. There are liberal and modern movements in the arabic societies as well. Furthermore this kind of thinking dangerously leads to a feeling of superiority. And superiority can be used to legitimize the use of force. 'Arab' is not a culture. Those liberal and modern movements are a different culture. You need to distinguish between race/origin and culture (and culture being a shared system of values, beliefs and norms).
It wasn´t only about race, it was about culture as well. Culture can not be inferior, as culture is, as you mentioned a sum of beliefs, values and norms. Yet you will be hard pressed to identify this culture, where a sexist or homophobic notion is shared unanimously. And even if appears to you this way, you wont be able to judge it as you can´t claim to know said culture close enough, if you don´t share it
I didnt say what you said: the point is, there is no such thing as a generic islamic culture. Furthermore i didnt raise the term "arabic culture", i merely referred to it. You cannot divide cultural complexes into segments in order to label one of them as inferior. Liberal arabic movements view themselves as part of that certain culture, that is meant to be labeled as inferior throughout this discussion.
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On August 13 2012 03:17 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:09 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 03:07 SupLilSon wrote:On August 13 2012 03:03 Thorakh wrote:On August 13 2012 02:15 Cele wrote:On August 12 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Muslim culture is a misnomer, Islam is a religion. Modern arab culture is oppressive and bigoted, inferior to western culture in many ways. Cultural Inferiority, uh? As a german i dislike any talk of cultural inferiority by definition. i highly doubt it makes any sense to continue this conversation here. That was about race. Cultures can be objectively inferior. Race can not. That is just wrong. For example, in a generic Islamic culture the belief system itself will be homophobic regardless of what individuals who identify themselves with it believe. That´s utterly wrong. As every religion, Islam needs to be interpreted in a fashion, that suits you. And this interpretation makes the culture sexist/homophobic or not. You could argue in the same fashion, that Christianity is sexist and homophobic. You just said exactly what I said. Why is monogamy and sexual equality objectively superior? In other species, male and female are almost never equal. Why is pro gay rights objectively better than homophobia? Because it's aligned with humanitarian beliefs? Or is it aligned with the specific cultural hegemony you were raised in? I'd rather have you show me why human (because that's what we're talking about here) males and females are not equal. There is not a single rational reason why women (for example) should not be allowed a job, walk without male supervision on the street, drive a car, you name it. It's the same for homophobia. There is not a single rational reason why gay = bad. Yes, I believe moral relativism is bullshit. If the strongest men were alowd to breed with as many females as they possibly could, without disgression and those women soley focused on the survival of those children, some may argue that would bring about stronger subsequent generations. Gay people = no progeny, no continuation of their gene pool. Obviously I agree with you in that I'd want to grow up in a culture that touts equality, but I still have a hard time judging Western culture as "objectively" superior.
So polygamy/monogamy are fine according to that (I find them to be)?
Gay is also fine since those with a genetic/cultural/whatever make-up for no relationship with the opposite gender will die out. Leaving only bi/opposite sex attraction.
Sounds fine to me. If gay isn't part of any of those then it will stay in, which also seems fine?
Edit, the only problem I see with your argument is that you assume that strong females won't attract multiple males.
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EPT
